Israeli Troops Kill Palestinian Girl

[gottaB]

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israeli troops shot and killed a 7-year-old Palestinian girl on Friday after militants fired mortar rounds at a Gaza Strip settlement, injuring four Israelis, one of them a child, officials said.

Palestinian militants fired three mortars at the Neve Dekalim settlement - which is adjacent to the Khan Younis refugee camp - seriously wounding three Israelis, one of them a child, the army said. A fourth Israelis was lightly injured.

In response, soldiers fired at the refugee camp, where the mortars were apparently fired from, killing 7-year-old Rana Siyam, Palestinian security sources said.

The army had no immediate comment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4665235,00.html

[Forkboy]

1. We'll call your ignorance and raise you!

:puke:

[Lithos]

3. Something like that

One stupid attack by fanatics followed by an automatic reaction done without much thought.

L-

[Forkboy]

6. I wish both sides would stop and think for just one minute

:-(

[comradebillyboy]

2. how is this even news

the idf routinely kills palestinian children by "accident". i'm sure the army will issue a statement of regret. besides, if she had lived she would have eith3er become a terrorist herself, or given birth to potential terrorists.

wadda ya want, man, i said i'm sorry

so long as an arab remains alive in greater israel, incl judea and samaria and golan, the jewish state will never be secure.

[lesterhalfjr]

4. ehh

seems to be a lot of israel bashing in this forum. Which is pretty ridiculous considering Israel is a democracy and palestine is a dictatorship.

The israeli-palestinian conflict is a recruiting point for terrorism in the same way that "liberal media bias" and "secularist takeover of america" are rallying points for right wingers.

[newyorican]

9. That's quite a trick...

palestine is not even a country, yet it is a "dictatorship".

Never mind that they are trying to hold elections (a bit difficult while under foriegn occupation).

I wonder who the Dictator is?

:crazy:

[catbert836]

11. Israel deserves to be bashed.

First of all, Israel is more right-wing than our own government, and is in fact an apartheid state like South Africa. Secondly, Palestine is owned by Israel, so how can it be a dictatorship? Unless you mean Israel is the dictator. I see how this works now...

[newyorican]

13. Oh, I get it...

Jabba the dick dictator...

[dems4israel]

15. Wrong on all levels

First of all Israel is a socalist liberal democracy much like Canada
except Canada does not pay for Communists Collectives "kibbutzim" the way Israel does. Israel has Arab Parties more then I can count the Israeli Parliament has Arab Knesset members even the Central right wing party of Ariel Sharon has a couple of Arab Knesset members! In fact the Nomadic Bedoin Arabs of Israel and the Druze Arabs normally vote Likud! Israel pays to have mosques and arab speaking schools in fact Arabic is one of Israels official languages Arabic is on most signs along with Hebrew. In Israel Gays can serve in the Military
Tel Aviv has one of the largest gay parades in the world Israel is much more liberal then America we could actually learn a few things from the Israelis.

[catbert836]

34. Rebuttal

-When blacks in South African were under apartheid there were many Black Parties in Parliament. Also, some more well-off blacks there were members of the AWB, just like some African-Americans today are members of the republican Party. This is because they are well off, but dosn't make it any better. Ariel's Likud Party is not "center-right' by any standard, it is as far right as the Constitution Party is here. And there is no excuse for the oppresion of the Palestinian people, no matter how many Arabs are in Knesset or much more that the ones doing the oppresion are Jewish.

[Tuco Ramirez]

7. 7 year old girl

Apparently that goes both ways; as long as there are Jews in Palestine, the Palestinians will never be safe.

Ask this little girl's family.

[catbert836]

12. You're joking, right?

I really hope so.

[Igel]

5. The NYT story

seemed to imply they were eating at the time. Thin walls?

[gottaB]

8. They say the bullet came through the window

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/11/international/middleeast/11mideast.html

[MsMagnificent]

18. Sitting with family eating lunch

Not meant as a murder on purpose, like the poor girl trying to go to school; but the point I believe was simply non-caring, indiscriminate use of weapons, shooting into civilian areas, houses, schools and the like... For the most part it does seem true, that by their actions the IDF look upon the Palestinians as sub-human. The way they react to many things makes me think that the Palestinians are looked upon as vermin -- they (IDF) really don't give a shit if they kill 'collateral' or not. Big deal.
And since they're fighting a 'cause' over select individuals -- oh well, if another one dies it's too bad *yawn*

It just doesn't matter to them, most of them at least.

At least their behavior dictates that, no matter what false *mea-culpa* words fall out.

But watch -- the officer who emptied his clip into the 12 year old girl... they'll delay the trial until most have forgotten
most of us in the West, that is
and then they'll give him a slap on the wrist and "Time Served".

Think My Lei massacre.
Hang on, I take that back: one of the more famous war crimes the IDF committed against the Palestinians in Jenin, called by everyone except Israel and the US a "Massacre"

...hmm gotta think of another Vietnam civilian death scandal, that one's already taken I guess.

[catbert836]

10. Oh! something new and different! No way!

You mean Israelis would do such a thing? </sarcasm>

[dems4israel]

14. Read the misleading headline

This is not telling the whole story the truth is that the girl was
in the same area that Hamas was launching shells into a noncommbatant area where two Israeli boys were badly injured its horible the girl died in the crossfire but its just as bad that Hamas still utilizes the brutal tactic of "human shields" normally old people or childeren.

[newyorican]

16. Hardcore...

Cognitive Dissonance...with a dash of *gasp* moral equivalence.

Pretty sad.

[MsMagnificent]

17. Baloney!

You're actually JUSTIFYING this young girls killing because "...it's as bad as Hamas"?!

And she was being used as a *human shield" WHILE SITTING AT TABLE EATING HER LUNCH?!

MINGIA!

That, friend, is why the bloodshed there will NEVER END.
Both sides pointing fingers at the other AND NEITHER ONE FUCKING CARING ABOUT THE DAMAGE THEY DO TO INNOCENTS!

And I'll pick on Israel, because THEY hold ALL the cards: THEY'RE the one's armed, THEY'RE the ones completely in charge, THEY'RE THE ONES WITH ALL THE POWER!
UNTIL ISRAEL STARTS FOLLOWING DECENT HUMAN MORALS AND TREATING THE PALESTINIANS AS FULL MEMBERS OF THE HUMAN RACE DESERVING OF EQUAL RIGHTS, ISRAEL WILL FALL!
And I'm not threatening that -- it's a fact. It's very well known that the Arab-Israeli (Palestine) demographics will exceed the Jewish-Israeli population within 10 years... and what of this precious Democracy THEN? Hmmm? With the way they treat Palestinians now, do you actually believe they'll let the majority vote? (Guess who isn't allowed to vote right now?!) I have no problem with a Jewish state -- after what many had suffered not only in WWII but throughout the centuries, it seems to be a moral right in the universe for them to have their country!
But to do these type of things??

Oh no... no no no I think not.

So... Israel refuses to give the Palestinians human rights. They want to crowd them all into ghetto's, arrest them at will, keep them for YEARS without being told what the arresting CHARGE was for, and give them absolutely NO legal representation! (Sound familiar? See below). They, with their tanks and jets and helicopters and APC's all supplied by best buddy America, can go raze the Palestinian ghettos, use brute force against an unarmed people at mere whim, or worse amusement!
'So what if they're full of "people"? They're only Palestinians!' seems to be the view of most of America. (And there is WONDER why Muslims HATE us?! -- it ain't for 'our freedoms' baby - it's what we do and who we greatly aid and abet!) They want to take all the arable land and water supplies and *graciously give* the Palestinians good-for-nothing desert. The last Camp David accords were a JOKE, this from a Jewish, (a non-apologetic, just rational) writer, Baruch Kimmerling:

...what Barak offered Arafat was a minuscule country divided into three enclaves lacking territorial contiguity by offering an exchange of the lands of three major settlement blocs characterized by sandy and unusable land. This, after the Palestinians had already given up their claim to more than 78 percent of the land of historical Palestine.

so DON'T even TRY that poor excuse!

From that same author:

The folly of the Palestinian leader (Arafat) ensures his own political survival. Sharon serves the same role for Arafat: Palestinians overlook their leader's gross incompetence every time the Israelis lash out. Sharon's investment in the status quo is revealed by the fact that every time Hamas has proposed a truce in suicide attacks, the Israeli military has promptly responded with a "targeted killing" of one of their leaders or activists, thus once again inflaming the cycle of violence and mutual slaughter.

Oh, but the suicide bombings you say? Have you ever LOOKED at what Israel does to those people with the missiles and helicopters and bulldozers and bullets?! That shit doesn't usually get press here in America -- but look at ANY other paper in the world... look at the British papers, or Australian, even Canadian! Too bad there aren't more wheelchairs in the Palestinian ghetto -- IDF likes to run over (they did it twice that I've seen reported, maybe more) old people in wheelchairs (and the wheelchair's contents) whose bad luck happened to put them on the side of the road contemporaneously with Israeli tanks.
Or they ring a doorbell and when the woman answered, detonate one of their own little bombs. A new twist on the flaming paper bag full of crap on your front porch eh? A whole WORLD, no, AFTERLIFE of shit! Those crazy, crazy IDF soldiers!
And I'm not talking about them shooting kids who throw rocks, as bad as that is -- I'm talking about babies decapitated in careless civilian MISSILE STRIKES --hundreds of them if not more, I'm talking about WHOLE FAMILIES REDUCED TO A FUCKING SMEAR AND NOBODY GIVES A FLYING FUCK!

Killing killing killing non-stop killing of ELDERLY
and CHILDREN?!

Oh yes, I HAVE seen the pictures. Truly horrific.

How's about "Israeli soldiers admit killing Palestinian boy for fun"
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/israeli_forces_kill_boy_fun_palestinian.htm

And who cares for them? Who?!
Seems like just the muslims, where we should also!

For shame.

Besides, where the HELL do you think BAGGING heads came from (with plastic bags no less -- In the DESERT!), those great new tactics we're using over there in Abu Graib and on the Iraqi streets? Or the "LAWS" that "Justify" keeping prisoners at Gitmo for YEARS without access to an attorney OR EVEN TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE INCARCERATED FOR?!
I'll tell you where -- our little buddy's in the ISRAEL "DEFENSE" FORCE taught this White House regime ALL their special little tricks!

Oh, but they're a "Democracy"?
It's JUST ANOTHER BLANK CHECK TO RUN RAMPANT?!
Do you know about the murder (via bulldozer) of an unarmed American girl? ...And they thought that was FUNNY?! (Check out the Freeper's sites -- they just love mocking that poor girl and tormenting her family!)
Do you know they have violated MANY more UN Resolutions than Iraq EVER did?
Of course you do, if you know your cause; but you choose to ignore that. Tell me WHAT *YOU* would do if in the Palestinians place? Really, I'd like to hear it!
I am also interested in what your defense of the IDF *IS*? Please, convince me! I'd love to get rid of this outrage!
Yet make no mistake -- this outrage is based on fact.

Mind you, it is FAR from all Israeli's that feel that way -- and there is absolutely no connection between the actions of the State of Israel and the worldwide jewish population. There are MANY great groups, one being Gush Shalom, whose motto is (from memory) "There are things decent people just do not do."
G_d bless them!

In the end, I don't give a SHIT if they're a Democracy or not; Evil Deeds are simply Evil

Pure and simple.

And as Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said, which I believe in utterly: This IS a moral universe"

which also means our country's (sp?) misdeeds --whatever country we happen to be in-- will unfortunately catch up to us all.

God help us.

[pelsar]

19. wow...too many exagerations in this one too really comment on....

but as far as the little girl goes....the IDF returns fire whenever fired upon. Those are the rules of the game that the HAMAs etc know very well. When they fire from civilian areas they are very aware that return fire will be directed in their direction.

Of course they dont like to shoot their mortors from open fields as that puts their lives indanger, its better protection to do it from inbetween homes as the shadows let them set up their equipment in the "dark".

For those of us involved its pretty obviouse that if we didnt return fire then the use of the palesteniains civilians as unwitting human shields would just increase.

Whos at fault? first and formost the hamas etc for doing such EVIL DEEDs as shooting from behind children. They know very well there will be return fire

_________________________________

MsMagnificent, I'm afraid like many you have many exagerations and have taken many things quite out of context as well as what appears to be simply misinformation. I guess a first step would be to actually put some more definitive information behind such things as:
old men being run over in their wheelchairs, old ladies opening the door and getting a bomb, hundreds of careless missle strikes..etc

[lesterhalfjr]

20. Yassir Arafat was the dictator I was referring too.

there are two sides to this story (the larger israeli-palestinian story, not neccesarily this particular news item). If you can at least see that you hav more perspective than 90 percent of the people who care about this conflict.

[newyorican]

26. Can dead guys be Dictators?

:shrug:

Someone is confused.

[Lithos]

23. pelsar

The issue I think is that two wrongs don't make a right.

In this case Hamas' attacks from civilian areas on civilian targets is wrong. Israel's blanket attacks into civilian areas, even if they are generally targeted at the source of the attack, in retribution is also wrong. Even worse is knowing that the mortar attackers have probably already left the area by the time Israel is conducting their return volley.

L-

[pelsar]

24. Lithos

Practically its a real problem...its not a matter of two wrongs dont make a right its a realistic problem in the field. As the war has gone on, the Rules of Engagment have been loosened, partially in response to increased reaction/action partly due to whats called fatigue. The longer a war goes on the lesser value human life gets....but thats not the issue here.

In the field, when fired upon, if you dont fire back, your inviting another attack, and one that comes in a bit closer. If you react aggresivly the attacker stays further away, irreguardless of whether or not hes been hit... When he tries again, he is aware that the second he lets go of his mortor/missle etc, there will be a return volley..he will be very nervous and consequently less acurate....

thats the situation from the ground level. And if your that commander who is responsable for the kids in your unit, to keep the attackers as far away as possible is your job... To NOT do so, would simply be negligent on his part.

And the Hamas, etc know this, only too well, because when there is no reaction or a weak one, they simply try again, the next day, or in a couple of days...but it comes.....

your not going to find "justice' in the field, your going to find tactial responses to threats.

[Lithos]

25. The issue I have

Is not with the Israeli response, but rather the type of response which seems rather blind.

I know radar is used to determine the location of the attack, but wouldn't it be easier to launch predator type drones into the area which allow for a greater pinpoint response either through their own armament, but also as an observer? Also, what about spreading out special force response teams as opposed to the general army, whose training is geared more towards these types of missions?

L-

[pelsar]

28. Lithos....response times....

over gaza are constant drones flying...(noise is also constant, must drive everyone nuts)....and IDF helicopters on standby or flying nearby...but the whole system to fire a mortor from setup to firing to getting out of there is about 30 seconds....so if the origin of fire is recognized (now thats a "solid" commonly used term....) immediate response is required.

And mortors can be fired from inbetween buildings (almost impossible to locate)...

special forces are used but they go on specific missions, mortors and kassam rockets dont take much to set up and fire. And when they are spotted, if the pilot decides that there are too many civilians around he wont fire (We've seen several films taken from helicopters of anti tank rockets or kassams being setup in order to recognize them). Hiding in Gaza city or one of the refugee camps isnt really very hard as they all built on mazes within mazes.....

the radar you mentioned usually requires a response from artillary for blanketing an area as its not that accurate, something the IDF doesnt use in this war.

So its a combination of chance, luck, intelligence that they are blown up before they get a chance to fire...

As far as the ground forces go.....if they see, they shoot, aggressive reaction is necessary, but that also causes civilian casualties......

After all the electronics and computers, it still comes down to the human decision to shoot or not to shoot and that is always a judgemental decision taken during times of stress, when ones judgemental ability is at its lowest......

[Lithos]

29. I'm not disagreeing with you

After all the electronics and computers, it still comes down to the human decision to shoot or not to shoot and that is always a judgemental decision taken during times of stress, when ones judgemental ability is at its lowest......

I understand completely the issue here about the need for a demonstration of force, but I've questions about the adequacy of the training for this type of mission.

My thoughts have to do with taking the decision out of regular ground troops whose training is not focused on such matters and moving it into the hands of more specialized troops who have received more training in these kinds of decisions. Police here in major cities receive this kind of training in how to deal with weapon fire in civilian areas, why can't a fair number of Israeli troops?

L-

[pelsar]

30. police actions...

the definition is not a police action...police actions have a very different tempo...with very different tactics:

they secure the area, keep the public away...the specific action is limited to a specific area with a single source for the threat etc.

In Gaza there are multiple threats from every direction (when an IDF forces enters, the mosques spread the word on their loudspeakers), so everyone with a gun who wants to fight "joins in"

(the last time a small IDF group went into gaza on an "overt mission" at night, they got into a firefight, with shooting coming from every building.....)

Even specialized forces cant tell the difference between a civilian who is a civilian and then becomes a fighter two minutes later when they get their gun out of the attic. The SF are used just on very specific missions when the info is relevant. Mortor fire is an everyday occurance done by the lower eschelons...usually the best that can be done is to keep them far away and scared, which keeps that accuracy low.

there is no "magic military solution" for mortors and kassams, they can be reduced but no more than that....

[pelsar]

31. MsMagnificent what if.....

you seem to claim that all israelis arent bad yet then go on what appears to be a kind of rant against the state of israel. I also read in your above post what can either be called exagerations of past events, misdefinition of specific words and/or misleading information in your above post....and i got curious.

if what all you wrote above turned out to be false (stay with me for a second)...would you opinion of israel the state be different?

[drdon326]

32. (cue in Jeopardy theme song)

.

[Forkboy]

21. up from the woodwork

how's LGF doing?

[lesterhalfjr]

22. don't know

I got kicked off for anti-semetism

[newyorican]

27. He was replying to #14

Interesting and revealing response either way. :thumbsup:

[Forkboy]

33. heh

:)

[catbert836]

35. That's cute.

Never mind that Israelis killed the girl, they had to! So why did the army go in there if there was a chance of collateral damage? Did you see the thread where the Israeli major said that he was right to kill a 13 year old girl? That's the kind of people we're dealing with.