Presbyterian Group Targets 5 Companies Says Benefits From Mideast Violence

[NNN0LHI]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB68LI31CE.html

Presbyterian Group Targets Five Companies It Says Benefits From Mideast Violence

A Presbyterian committee accused five companies Friday of contributing to "ongoing violence that plagues Israel and Palestine" and pledged to use the church's multimillion-dollar stock holdings in the businesses to pressure them to stop.

The move follows a vote last year by leaders of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to put economic pressure on companies that profit from Israeli policy in the West Bank and Gaza.

The vote had outraged Jewish groups, who said the strategy was biased and failed to recognize Israel's right to defend itself, and the tensions worsened after other Protestant bodies adopted similar tactics.

Jewish leaders are deeply disturbed that the campaigns threatening divestment essentially borrow from the 1980s movement against South African apartheid. snip

The targeted companies are Caterpillar Inc.; Citigroup; ITT Industries Inc.; Motorola Inc.; and United Technologies Corp.

[whistle]

1. what happened to Halliburton and all of the othere defence...

....industry corporations, as well as the mass media companies who are covering the violence? Surely the list could be much longer than 5 companies.

[bahrbearian]

2. Like all the Oil companies, Lockheed, Boeing,GM,.....

[Ksec]

3. or Carlyle

[Coastie for Truth]

10. What I find interesting is the presence of Citigroup

(I am no personal fan of Citigroup - even closed my accounts and canceled my Citiplastic).

But, Citi, working with Saudi Prince Talal's "Kingdom Holdings" is working with individual Palestinians and with Palestinian entrepreneurs to develop an economic - entrepreneurial infrastructure for the Palestinian community - in Gaza and the OT's.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Even more interesting, the former CEO of Citigroup

"leapt" to his death over a week ago. Apparent "suicide".

:tinfoilhat:

[Coastie for Truth]

24. According to today's NY Times

Here's the excerpt:

In an effort to appear even-handed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the church committee also included Citigroup on its list of targets, alleging it had a connection to a bank accused of having a role in funneling money from Islamic charities to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. The church said it included Citigroup because it was mentioned in an article in The Wall Street Journal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/06/national/06church.html?
Threat to Divest Is Church Tool in Israeli Fight (Para 3)

Does that really ring true, "The church said it included Citigroup because it was mentioned in an article in The Wall Street Journal." a lot of good evidence - an article from the Journal to make a major decision that "could" subject the investment committee to liability.

Then, " alleging it had a connection to a bank accused of having a role in funneling money from Islamic charities to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Then, if you follow the "Issues" investments sheets and advisories ("Issues" investing is investing in GLBT and environmental and female and racial/religious minority friendly companies, and don't invest in polluters, defense issues, companies that are unfriendly to the GLBT, and female, and racial/religious minorities, and handicapper/elderly communities) you get the "Tilt" lights blinking.

According to the buzz from the "Issues Investing" advisories and funds - Citi is investing in Palestinian infrastructure and Palestinian entrepreneurs. And, unless you are willing to take down Palestinian aspirations as a reasonable price to pay for taking down Israel, you have to agree that investing in Palestinian infrastructure and Palestinian entrepreneurs is probably good.

And, " alleging it had a connection to a bank accused of having a role in funneling money from Islamic charities to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers" indicates a level of ignorance or naivete about "correspondent banking" in the Islamic culture and context that I find unbelievable.

From what I have heard "on the street" (Sand Hill Road) and heard from "isues investment advisories" (and I am an issues investor) - something just doesn't add up. Citi has done more for Palestinian infrastructure and Palestinian entrepreneurs then any other "money market" bank.

The Citi divestiture smells like day old sushi.

And, I am no friend of Citi. I long ago canceled my business and personal accounts and closed my Citiplastic.

[Jim Sagle]

56. But Citi is a BANK... a NEW YORK bank, at that...moooooo!!!!!!!!

[KittyWampus]

4. Right, & When Your Child Takes Its 1st Step Beat It For Not Running

a marathon.

Edit-And it's typical that 2 other DU'ers posted THEIR slaps in the time it took me to post.

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Several Points.

1. First Point Some communities of faith target those who benefit from both sides' acts of "terror" and invest in those who invest in "peace" and "peaceful development"

Link: http://www.uua.org/actions/immediate/02peace_and_justice.html

Unitarian Universalist Action of Immediate Witness


Because our Unitarian Universalist Principles call us to affirm the inherent worth and dignity of every person, justice and equity in human relations, and the goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; and
Whereas Rev. William Sinkford, President of the Unitarian Universalist Association, has spoken out on the Middle East conflict in a pastoral letter of March 27, 2002, calling for "our congregations to educate themselves on issues and to engage in honest conversation";
Whereas in 1982 the Unitarian Universalist Association General Assembly adopted a General Resolution encourage and culture a comprehensive peace settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and calling on all parties to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the others;
Whereas Unitarian Universalists have supported and affirmed the rule of law and the positive role of the United Nations in building a world community;
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 emphasizes "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace," and other United Nations resolutions have re-affirmed Israel as the "Occupying Power" bound by the Fourth Geneva Convention, "which is applicable to all the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967";
Whereas the United States government is responsible for a significant portion of arms sales to this over-armed region, thus furthering its instability;
Whereas the Middle East situation has been deteriorating with increased violence on both sides and increased military oppression;
Whereas United States diplomacy has not led to peace or security for the region; and
Whereas the World Conference of Religions for Peace, an organization co-founded by the Unitarian Universalist Association, has responded to requests from the Prime Minister of Israel and the President of the Palestinian Authority by calling for a "religiously sanctioned cease-fire" and recognition of Israel and Palestine as states with secure, internationally recognized borders;
Therefore, be it resolved that the 2002 General Assembly of the Unitarian Universalist Association urges the following principles as a basis for action by the governments of the United States and Canada:

-----Freedom from occupation and equal rights for all, including the right to exist in peace and security.
-----Opposition to Israeli settlements, land confiscation, house demolitions, and other violations of international law.
-----Opposition to all attacks on civilians, whether by suicide bombers, F-16 or helicopter gunships, or any other means.
-----Support for a central United Nations role in efforts to achieve a comprehensive, just, and lasting peace.

Be it further resolved that the 2002 General Assembly calls on

-----the Israeli government to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and international law;
-----Palestinians to immediately stop suicide bombings and all attacks on Israeli civilians;
-----the United States government to

1. "suspend all transfers of those types of weapons and munitions used to commit human rights violations until Israel is clearly in compliance with the terms for arms transfers as expressed in United States law and bilateral agreements," as Amnesty International has called for, and
2. work within the United Nations for a just peace that includes two viable secure states, Israel and Palestine, based on the 1967 borders, with mutual relations based on sovereignty and equality; and
3. our congregations to:

become educated on Middle East issues and engage in honest conversation;
redouble their efforts for peace based on the goal of justice and human rights for all;
support actions of the anti-occupation Israeli peace activists, including Rabbis for Human Rights and the Israeli reserve officers who refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories;
encourage Jewish Americans and others who support Israel but oppose its occupation of Palestine; and
condemn and oppose expressions and acts of anti-Semitism and acts of terror against Jews, Palestinians, or Arabs and their legitimate institutions wherever they may occur.

2. Second Point - Why not target enablers of ther terrorism on the Palestinian side -

a.
b.

It isn't the "Zionists" or the "Israelis" who are ripping off the Arab proletariat and it isn't the "Zionists" or the "Israelis" who are
putting the Arab proletariat's birthright (oil revenues) into bordellos and casinos and race horses, and it isn't the "Zionists" or the "Israelis" who are supporting the authoritarian, oligarchic oil princelings. Try ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Oxy, ConocoPhillips, Halliburton (oil field services - biggest in the field).

Which churches are disinvesting in Oil and Carlyle and Halliburton? To ask the question is to answer it.

I have been in the "energy" industry for most of my career - I know what I see and what I hear.

BTW - several of the companies that the Presbyterians are disinvesting in are the same companies that are investing in development of Gaza and have committed to invest in development of the OT.

[Tom Joad]

12. Boycotting corporations like Caterpillar help everyone

Because the Israeli military continues to commit war crimes using Caterpillar Bulldozers, it is really an act of violence that hurts everyone. By saying no to Caterpillar, it is really an affirmation of life and justice.

Stopping the cycle of violence must start at its source, the overwhelming power of the Israeli government as it continues to dispossess the Palestinians of their homes and crops.

Of course, the Churches would do well to call on the US to stop giving military aid to Israel.

I would also endorse a halt to all aid to all states in the Middle East.

[Coastie for Truth]

13. Let's analyze it--

"Boycotting corporations like Caterpillar help everyone - Because the Israeli military continues to commit war crimes using Caterpillar Bulldozers, it is really an act of violence that hurts everyone. By saying no to Caterpillar, it is really an affirmation of life and justice."

Including the standby electric generators used, e.g., by hospitals during brown outs. And how about the heavy duty construction equipment for highways and MASS TRANSIT SYSTEMS. Stop the BART subway from San Francisco to San Jose -- let them dot.commers drive their polluting cars on 101 and 880. Besides - San Francisco needs more dirty air - and needs to burn more gas -- right.

Of course, the Churches would do well to call on the US to stop giving military aid to Israel.

And Egypt! And Turkey! and PAKISTAN and even Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I agree if it is 100% - no exceptions - no special export licenses.

I would also endorse a halt to all aid to all states in the Middle East.

1. All Aid

-Let's start with the cancer research and pediatric leukemia research and arid land agronomics aid - to Israel, Egypt, and Pakistan. And then the food aid. And what about infra-structure aid to Gaza and the West Bank after Israel pulls out -- which is what Citi was working on with Kingdom Holdings.

2. Just Military Aid

Equally to all of the states in the ME.

The best thing we could do - is follow the advice of President Jimmie Carter -- and become energy independent -- and not contribute to the exploitation of the Arab proletariat by the exploitive mineral exploiters in league with oligarchs of the autocratic kingdoms and military dictator ship -- and the Bush buddies.

I hope the money the Churches get from selling their stock, and the money the US saves from cutting ALL AID TO ALL OF THE STATES IN THE REGION (including medical research) goes for feeding the people in Niger and developing their agricultural infrastructure.

[Tom Joad]

14. ignore this, see below

Editing error, my apologies.

[Tom Joad]

15. No Military Aid to the Middle East, period.

I should have said all military aid to all nations. That is just common sense, unless you happen to be in the arms business.

Israel should also not receive any economic aid, not only because it is in violation of international treaties and laws. Not the least of which is the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Israel is the center of Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Middle East, and is the most likely to use them, We have a hero, Mordechai Vanunu to thank for informing us just how many. By the way, providing military

Another reason is that Israel should not receive economic aid is that it it is not a poor state. I would favor more aid to say... Wisconsin. Why Israel needs more economic aid than all of Sub-Saharan Africa is a mystery to me.

The Arab Dictatorships are there because they do no more than lip-service for the Palestinians, and that's on their good days, mostly not even that. A real Arab democracy would not be in the interests of the current Israeli State, or the elite of the United States.

[Coastie for Truth]

17. OKAY

Israel should also not receive any economic aid, not only because it is in violation of international treaties and laws. Not the least of which is the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Israel is the center of Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Middle East, and is the most likely to use them, We have a hero, Mordechai Vanunu to thank for informing us just how many. By the way, providing military

No pharmacogenomics, no pharmacogenomic chemotherapies, no stem cell research, no diabetes (Type I and II) management protocols and therapeutics, no proton-blockers like Prilosec and Nexium, no macular degeneration therapeutics (the US even lags "socialized medicine" Canada here), no new tomography techniques .......

No JPEG, no MPEG, no Adobe Acrobat, no HDTV "operating systems" ...


No dialysis membranes (kidney dialysis, water desalination, fuel cells for "Peak Oil")

Israel is the center of Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Middle East, and is the most likely to use them,

Not Pakistan or India. OK.

A real Arab democracy would not be in the interests of the current Israeli State,

Au contraire. Israel seems to get along with Turkey, and with India (second largest Muslim population) -- both democracies.


Yeah.

[mom cat]

25. Welcome to DU Tom Joad!

Welcome to the best little discussion group in the world!:hi:

[LivingInTheBubble]

19. I take it you would have let apartheid carry on too.

We should treat the situation in israel with the same distaste as we did with South Africa, let them know we dont support their occupation and murderous tactics.

[Coastie for Truth]

20. Please connect the dots -

[Coastie for Truth]

26. Do you know what apartheid actually is - historically and juridicially

not just rhetorically?

Let old Coastie tell you. (From Wikipedia - not Henkin)

Apartheid, which means "separateness" in Afrikaans, was a social system enforced by white minority governments in twentieth-century South Africa. Under apartheid, the black majority was segregated, and was denied political and economic rights equal to those of whites.

In the run-up to the 1948 elections, the NP campaigned on its policy of apartheid. The NP was voted in, in coalition with the Afrikaner Party (AP), under Daniel François Malan's leadership. The National Party won the national election of 1948, narrowly defeating Smuts' United Party (though losing the popular vote). It immediately began implementing stricter racial segregation policies, creating the system of apartheid.

Apartheid, long a reality of life, became institutionalised under Malan. Within short order, legislation was passed prohibiting mixed marriages, making interracial sex illegal, classifying every individual by race, and establishing a classification board to rule in questionable cases. The notorious Group Areas Act of 1950 set aside desirable city properties for whites, while banishing non-whites into the townships. The Separate Amenities Act created, among other things, separate beaches, buses, hospitals, schools, and even park benches. The existing pass laws were further strengthened: Blacks and Coloureds were compelled to carry identity documents at all times and were prohibited from remaining in towns, or even visiting them, without specific permission. Mixed couples were not allowed to live together, or even to visit each other, in the town where only one of them worked, and children had to remain in rural areas.

Prime Minister H.F. Verwoerd, whose firm belief in racial segregation earned him the unofficial title of "architect of apartheid", moved to strip coloureds and blacks of what little remaining voting rights they had. However, he needed a two-thirds majority in both Houses of Parliament in order to change the entrenched clauses of the Constitution. As the Nationalists did not have a majority in the upper house, the Senate, Verwoerd nominated a large number of his supporters as Senators, who then voted for the change.

The principal apartheid laws were as follows:

The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act (1949)

Amendment to The Immorality Act (1950)


This law made it a criminal offence for a white person to have any sexual relations with a person of a different race.


The Population Registration Act (1950)


This law required all citizens to register as black, white or coloured.


The Suppression of Communism Act (1950)


This law banned any opposition party the government chose to label as "communist".


The Group Areas Act (27 April 1950)


This law barred people of particular races from various urban areas.


The Reservation of Separate Amenities Act (1953)


This law prohibited people of different races from using the same public amenities, such as drinking fountains, restrooms, and so on.


The Bantu Education Act (1953)


This law brought in various measures expressly designed to reduce the level of education attainable by black people.


The Mines and Work Act (1956)


This law formalised racial discrimination in employment.


The Promotion of Black Self-Government Act (1958)


This law set up nominally independent "homelands" for black people. In practice, the South African government had a strong influence over these bantustans.


Black Homeland Citizenship Act (1971)


This law changed the status of the inhabitants of the 'homelands' so that they were no longer citizens of South Africa, and therefore had none of the rights that came with citizenship


The Afrikaans Medium Decree (1974) required the use of Afrikaans in schools

Moreover, Apartheid was implemented by the law. The following restrictions were not only social but were strictly enforced by law:

Non-whites were excluded from national government and were unable to vote except in elections for segregated bodies.

Non-whites were not allowed to run businesses or professional practices in any areas designated as being for whites only. Whites were not allowed to operate businesses or professional practices in any areas designated as being for blacks only. Every significant metropolis, and practically every significant shopping and business district was in a white area.

Black and white transport and civil facilities were segregated.

Blacks (except for a few who had "Section 10" rights), who comprised over 60% of the population, were excluded from living or working in white areas, unless they had a pass. Whites required passes in black areas.


A pass was only issued to someone who had approved work; spouses and children had to be left behind in the non-white area.


A pass was issued for one magisterial district confining the holder to that area only.

Being without a valid pass made a person subject to immediate arrest and summary trial, often followed by "deportation" to the person's "homeland". Police vans containing sjambok-wielding officers roamed the "white area" to round up the "illegal" blacks.

When you go beyond South Africa, you can get yourself all twisted up.
For example, the Israeli West Bank barrier is often referred to by critics as the Apartheid wall, and some critics of Israel refer to it as a "racist" and/or "Apartheid" state, but how does it compare with South Africa’s regime? Please connect the dots.

And, let’s look at Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia denies citizenship not only to Jews, but to Christians as well, and non-Muslims are not permitted to reside permanently in the country. Saudi Arabia's discriminatory practices against women and non-Muslim minorities can also be described as forms of apartheid.

And, seriously, let’s look in the mirror. Racial segregation was the law in the American South until the American Civil Rights Movement. Some similarities between the situation in the U.S. and South Africa were:

The races were kept separate, and, e.g., schools for black and white children were unequal in quality.

Interracial sex and marriage were outlawed.

Blacks were systematically denied voting rights.

Jim Crow etiquette was similar to apartheid etiquette.

And let’s really look at United States of America GENOCIDE– By analogy to WW2 the Civil Rights Congress (CRC) made a 1951 presentation on lynching to the United Nations titled "We Charge Genocide," which argued that the federal government, by its failure to act against lynching, was guilty of genocide under Article II of the UN Genocide Convention.


So, please try to be a bit more precise.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_outside_South_Africa

( The Civil Rights Congress, referred to above, was a civil rights organization formed in 1946 by a merger of the International Labor Defense and the National Federation for Constitutional Liberties. In 1951, it presented a denunciation of lynching in the United States, titled We Charge Genocide, to the United Nations. William L. Patterson and Paul Robeson were prominent members of the organization. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Congress)

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Desmond Tutu sure does...

Apartheid in the Holy Land

In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,706911,00.html

While apartheid isn't happening within Israel's borders, what Israel has happening in the Occupied Territories is very much a system based on apartheid, wouldn't you agree?

Violet....

[Coastie for Truth]

29. No - I would not agree with your question.

Good quote:

I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Feel free to explain why Desmond Tutu is wrong...

How is what Israel does in the Occupied Territories not an apartheid-style system?

btw, I know it's a good quote, and one I strongly agree with...

Violet....

[Coastie for Truth]

31. You're the proponent asserting it -- the burden is on you

to chapter and verse support the quote. I gave you the Wikipedia list of statutes and practices.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Not at all...

I asked you if you agreed that Israel practices an apatheid based system in the Occupied Territories, and you said it doesn't. So I'd like to know why you don't think so. And using some Wikipedia entry to try to make out that apartheid based systems can only exist if it's in South Africa and being carried out by Afrikaaners doesn't cut it. Or are you trying to say that Israel doesn't build Israeli-only settlements and roads, doesn't have checkpoints where Israelis can sail through while Palestinians have to stop and wait, that there are two different sets of laws depending on whether a person is Palestinian or an Israeli settler? If that's the case, there's a mountain of information to educate you on the issue, and I'm more than happy to start posting links for you to read...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

34. I would refer you to Louis Henkin's book

I know it is in the ANU Library - a very well footnoted and referenced discussion of the legal regime of apartheid.

Wikipedia lists the key statutes. If you want more analysis - try Henkin's book. I have read it - and base my opinion on it.

I cited to Wikipedia because I have neither the time nor the craziness to type paragraph after paragraph of text and footnotes from Henkin into the computer.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Let me ask you another question...

You don't believe that what Israel does in the Occupied Territories is an apartheid-style system because it's not exactly the same as South African apartheid. So do you believe that Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories are in any way discriminatory and segregational?

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

48. Perhaps it should be mentioned that the OT are a WAR ZONE

and that the so-called apartheid stems primarily from security concerns? This is not a racially motivated situation but one that stems from decades of violence.

I thought that was pretty obvious to people with any sense of perspective whatsoever.

Throwing around loaded terms like "apartheid" clouds the reality of the situation.

Having said that, people's civil rights should always be respected.

We are seeing in Europe, however, in the wake of the London bombings, how fragile that social contract really is. ONE bombing, one failed attempt, and we have an innocent man shot five times in the head, proposed hate speech laws and curbs on religious practices, not to mention the expulsion of several imams - from FRANCE, if you please - bastion of the liberal West.

Is this apartheid? Or is this the logical response to terror and the grave threat violence poses to the continuity of open, democratic societies?

[eyl]

38. Well

Apartheid, by definition, distinguishes according to race.

1) Israeli-only roads - note the phrasing you yourself used. An Israeli Arab can use those roads as freely as an Israeli Jew - and some do. see also next point

2) Checkpoints - especially internal ones - didn't really exist before the beginning of the intifada (there were some checkpoints, but they were mostly unmanned except for times of tension). Many of Israeli-only roads, also, were not "segregated" (e.g. the road which crosses the Shomron) until Israeli cars started getting shot on them. I should also note that AFAIK there were no Israeli-only roads prior to Oslo - IOW, they're a result of agreements with the Palestinians.

3) As for different legal systems - should I take it Tutu is in favor of Israel annexing the Territories? Or is Israel to be lambasted for both violating international law and for following it?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Here's something from B'tselem for you to read...

“Seam Area” regime prevents Palestinian farmers from reaching their fields and is based on racist criteria

Since October 2003, Israel has implemented a new permit system in the enclaves it created between the separation barrier and the Green Line. As a result, Palestinians without a permit are denied the right to work their lands to the west of the barrier.

Absurdly, only Palestinians require permits. According to Civil Administration directives, Jews can freely enter the Seam Area, even if they are not residents of Israel. By contrast, Palestinians wanting to obtain a permit face a bureaucratic nightmare. B'Tselem's report reveals that during the first six months of the permit regime, the Civil Administration rejected about 25 percent of the permit requests in the Tulkarm-Qalqiliya area. Although Israel has denied farmers their source of income, it refuses to compensate them for their losses. Even farmers with permits may wait hours to cross because the gates were closed.

The Israeli government has not learned from the substantial damage caused by building the first stage of the barrier inside the West Bank. If Israel continues its current policy and completes other sections of the barrier east of the Green Line, thousands more Palestinians will lose their source of income, further increasing the level of poverty in the West Bank. Construction of the barrier inside the West Bank violates international law.

http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20040616b.asp

Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank

Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab.asp

And not only this, but Desmond Tutu, a man who knows far more than you or I ever would what apartheid was all about, recognises what Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories as a system similar to apartheid. Add to the ranks Nelson Mandela, and it becomes clear that any claims that there is no similarity to apartheid in what is done in the Occupied Territories are based on emotion and knee-jerk defense of just about everything done by Israel, rather than out of logic and a sense of fairness...

Nelson Mandela Speaks Out Against Israel

MANDELA'S FIRST MEMO TO THOMAS FRIEDMAN

To: Thomas L. Friedman (New York Times Columnist)
From: Nelson Mandela (former President of South Africa)


Dear Thomas:

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what's on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964. Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then:

"I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

Today the world, black and white, recognize that apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of democracy.

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column "Bush's First Memo" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

<snip>

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.

http://de.indymedia.org/2001/05/2420.shtml

I know, I know. What would Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela know when pitted against the awesome might of *drumroll* Wikipedia!!

Violet...

[eyl]

39. How many Jews

perpetrated suicide bombings in the Seam Area?

[Jim Sagle]

57. Tutu is a lyin' sack, and an ingrate.

[eyl]

42. You are aware

are you not, that Israel discontinued demolishing the homes of suicide bombers a while back? At best, this is quite behind the times.

[Colorado Blue]

47. Jesus H. Christ. What a one-sided view of the situation.

You are talking about human beings here, on both sides, who have been trapped in decades of violence - much of which was fomented by Great Power meddling and extremist agitators.

Most of Israel's people are refugees from persecution elsewhere. They've built a modern, democratic state in spite of a series of wars and endless terrorism, and the Palestinian Covenant, Hamas and other groups are still calling for her total destruction.

What about "self defense" in a country smaller than Lake Erie and only 6 miles wide, doesn't make sense to you? And why would you want to further damage the 6 million citizens of Israel - a considerable percentage of whom are Arab, some of whom are African and Indian, many of whom fled Arab lands in the wake of the wars, some of whom are Holocaust survivors and their descendants? They're trying to get on their feet economically. In fact they've instituted a plan called The Wisconsin Plan to help aid the unemployed. Bedouin women, often fighting the paternalism of the culture, have started textile co-ops.

As far as US Aid is concerned, we give aid to many countries and Israel herself sends aid to Africa. The Palestinians themselves receive billions, much of it from oil-rich Arab/Muslim states as well as from the West. Economic stimulation is one of the key solutions to the problems confronting this region - unless of course you think the Arabs should stay in a medieval economy forever, trying to feed their burgeoning population on a goat and olive economy? Change and upheaval are inevitable and are hardly limited to this particular region. Money and jobs and the establishment of a modernized, post industrial economy, alleviating the poverty and unemployment that affect so much of the middle east, are key to the future - not moralistic gestures like divestiture.

That can only hurt the PEOPLE - all the people. I think it sucks.

[theHandpuppet]

6. Thank you!

Some people here react without truly READING the article.

For instance, "A Presbyterian committee accused five companies Friday of contributing to "ongoing violence that plagues Israel and Palestine" and pledged to use the church's multimillion-dollar stock holdings in the businesses to pressure them to stop."

Okay, it clearly states that the reason the church is able to put any pressure at all on these companies is because these are five companies in which the church has major investments.

Get it, folks? This effort deserves to be lauded, not targeted for some knee-jerk condemnation.

[anitar1]

7. You are so right about slaps. I don't read many posts any

more, because of these types of remarks. People who only read the lead-in, or give no thought to anything. Just jump on the organization and start tearing them down. Keyboard commandos.It has become the favorite sport these days.

[susanna]

11. Excellent analogy.

I guess I am biased, since I worship Presbyterian USA. I like my church. They are trying their hardest to maintain Christ's true principles in a increasingly intolerant religious environment. Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't. I think they deserve a fair hearing on the steps they DO take. (In other words, no slaps from me.)

[DemBones DemBones]

8. They only listed companies they own stock in and

can influence as stock owners.

[Jim Sagle]

9. Upside down religion.

[not systems]

21. That is a very offensive thing to say. n/t

[Jim Sagle]

27. So is singling out Israel as the worst evil in the world.

Not just offensive, but potentially genocidal. No joke.

[NJmaverick]

16. It's good to see a religious group take a moral stand

with their money. I hope they succeed in what they set out to do.

[not systems]

22. May they be the first of many.

Great to see people putting their money to work for peace.

[yurbud]

23. nominated. Do this for iraq too. Tell your pension to divest from war

profiteers like Halliburton, and others.

I wrote my state retirement fund about this after the election.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Rather then just telling your pension plan to "blindly divest"

tell them to follow the "Issue Funds" and invest in Palestinian (and Israeli and Jordanian and Egyptian) companies that are working to build an entrepreneurial infrastructure in the Palestinian community.

And tell them to read Professor Richard Florida's books ("The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life" and "The Flight of the Creative Class: The New Global Competition for Talent") and seek out the Palestinian "Growth Stocks" that create jobs and industries - it's called "Win-Win."

[newyorican]

37. Better yet...

move the investments to such "companies that are working to build an entrepreneurial infrastructure in the Palestinian community."

[Coastie for Truth]

40. You mean Citigroup?

[newyorican]

43. I'm sure...

there are other alternatives.

[Coastie for Truth]

44. I don't like to give stock tips on chat rooms

But I have invested through an "Issues Fund" that was started by alumni of the environmental club and the GLBT students club at Wharton.

Been around for about twenty years -- and I am satisfied with their returns and their choices.

Not stock tips - but some web sites on "Issues Investing" and "Green Investing" and "Socially Responsible Investing" - there's a lot of overlap between the funds and fund managers--

1)
2)

[newyorican]

46. Oh yeah...

I can see that you don't like to give stock tips. It's totally oblivious to anyone...

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

41. Caterpillar is the Dow Chemical of today!

During the Vietnam War, Dow Chemical became the focus of the ire of peace groups for its manufacturing of the napalm being used to incinerate Vietnamese villages. Caterpillar now finds itself in the same dubious role as Dow Chemical. The corporate board of Caterpillar has claimed that they have no control on what Israel does with the armored bulldozers the company manufactures. What hypocrites!

The vote had outraged Jewish groups, who said the strategy was biased and failed to recognize Israel's right to defend itself.

Leveling the homes of people whose only crime is that they are blood relatives of suicide bombers and other terrorists is no different from the US torching a village in Vietnam because an American patrol was ambushed nearby, or bombing an entire city in Iraq because some American mercenaries were strung up from a nearby bridge.

The best way to defend Israel is by ending the Occupation!

On a more personal note, if you were to see a friend or loved engaged in destructive personal behaviour, such as drugs or an eating disorder, you would not be encouraging that behaviour but instead you would seek intervention to save your friend or loved one's life. The Occupation is such a destructive behaviour on a grander scale.

The real enemies of Israel in America is the rightwing because they are encouraging the advocates of the Occupation, and its expansion, not because they love Israel but because they have a biblical apocalyptic vision that they want to bring about. Their sweet words of support are nothing but poison!

[NVMojo]

45. gee, I need to contact them. I posted a story here last week about

a LV entertainment owner who is investing in a casino on the Gaza Strip with Shmuel Flatto-Sharon and Cyril Kern, investor in the life of Ariel Sharon's family and it was tombstoned. The reason I posted the story is the LV guy is trying to get a local Indian tribe to move to another state and claim it is their territory so he can put his land into their hands and get it into trust status for a casino. The newly announced Gaza Strip casino project was planned clear back a year ago. The LV investor is a major Bush supporter/RNC donor. Interesting connections.

[Colorado Blue]

49. The REAL economic situation - from Ha'aretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/609826.html

A third of Israeli children are poor, 2004 report finds

By Ruth Sinai, Haaretz Correspondent

Every third child in Israel lives below the poverty line, according to an annual National Insurance Institute (NII) poverty report released Monday.

In 2004, 1.534 million people in Israel lived below the poverty line, the report found. The figure attests to a substantial rise in poverty rates, with 100,000 more poor Israelis in 2004 than there were in 2003.

The report also shows that poor families constitute 20.3 percent of Israel's population. The number of children living in poor families has reached 700,000.

After six years of relative stability, the year 2003 marked the start of the ascension of poverty rates. In that year, the proportion of poor families rose from 18.1 percent of the population to 19.3 percent.

The report was released just as the 2006 budget is expected to come up for cabinet approval.

Mossawa, the Advocacy Center for Arab Palestinian Citizens of Israel, said that the percentage of poor families in the Arab sector in 2004 stands at 49.9 percent, up from the 2003 mark of 48.4 percent.

Thus, the figures indicate that one-third of all poor families are Israeli Arab, the group said, adding that it estimates that 60% of all Arab children in Israel live below the poverty line.


snip

Think about this sort of thing when you advocate the economic punishment of Israelis and Arabs. Need I mention the situation is even worse for most Arab nations? Yet, there are posters in this thread who would cut off all US assistance to this region.

Wow. What a great, compassionate idea.

[Coastie for Truth]

52. Another way.

1. Compare to the UU Boycott

See my append at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=124&topic_id=97980&mesg_id=97988 which contains a link to the Unitarian-Universalist Association's stand on investments. The UUA policy is at http://www.uua.org/actions/immediate/02peace_and_justice.html and is an example of "Issues Funds". There are no simple answers - and I point to the UUA as "another" answer - not as "the" answer. The UUA never claims to be "the" answer.

2. The College Psychology Game

I refer to the last paragraph in The New Republic Online, at http://www.tnr.com/, ANGLICANS AND ISRAEL-Bad English by Martin Peretz, Post date: 06.30.05, Issue date: 07.11.05


http://www.tnr.com/sam/public/click.mhtml/325/0, http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050711&s=peretz071105

<much edited to get to the core -- read the article in its entirety>

"Which takes us back to the church deleriants for Palestine. What kindles the fire in their hearts for Palestine? There is little or nothing in Palestinian society that would fill a progressive with enthusiasm. And these churches do not generally exult in the promise of yet one more nation-state. In fact, these churches are against the nation-state, especially the U.S. nation-state. (In Nottingham last week, the Anglicans demanded the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.) And, even if you take to the harshest reading of Israeli behavior in their ongoing conflict with the Palestinians, dozens and dozens of other peoples in the world, some of whom have a much sounder claim to be a real nation than those for whom the official Anglicans and Presbyterians shed so many tears, suffer infinitely more deprivation and indignity than they do. But tears are not shed for those people at Canterbury Cathedral in England or, for that matter, at Christ Church in Cambridge, Massachusetts, whose rectors have for years been virtual street agitators against Israel. So I come to an unavoidable conclusion. The obsession here is not positive, for one side, but rather negative, against the other side. The clerics and the lay leaders on this indefensible crusade are so fixated on Palestine because their obsession, which can be buttressed by various Christian sources and traditions, is really with the Jews. A close look at this morbid passion makes one realize that its roots include an ancient hostility for the House of Israel, an ugly survival of a hoary intolerance into some of the allegedly enlightened precincts of modern Christendom. "


which I append not as an accuser or in judgement - just for another opinion - another viewpoint.


One of the marks of a true progressive is that he/she is always open to listen to and consider another viewpoint.

<><>

[DixieDem]

53. Good find CB!!!

This report shows how the conflict is affecting the children on BOTH sides. Often we tend to forget that the Israeli children are suffering too. It breaks my heart! We can't stand by and watch ANY child suffer. I do NOT support economic punishment. I would like to see my tax dollars go towards helping these kids and not the war machine though.

[Englander]

50. ~War on Want: Caterpillar, the alternative report~

by Joe Zacune and Claire Faucet, War on Want
March 1st, 2005

This report compares and contrasts Caterpillar's rhetoric of corporate social responsibility with the reality of its actual practices.

The report looks at the international construction company Caterpillar, and in particular its operations in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Caterpillar is the largest UK employer in the earth moving and construction industry,and is known on the high street for its range of rugged boots and fashion accessories.As a company,Caterpillar claims to maintain “a strong focus on social responsibility”,while its Code of Worldwide Business Conduct boasts “high ethical standards” through which Caterpillar should “set an example for others to follow”.

Yet Caterpillar’s armoured bulldozers have been responsible for the destruction of thousands of Palestinian homes,schools,wells and olive groves.Caterpillar’s bulldozers have also been used in the construction of the Separation Wall which Israel has built on Palestinian land and which has been ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice.As a result of this involvement in the abuse of Palestinians’ human rights,Caterpillar has been subject to unprecedented criticism from the United Nations and international human rights groups. "

pdf of report at;

Stop Caterpillar-
http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/article.php?id=258

[Coastie for Truth]

51. Konnichi wa, Iie Genki desu Ka? Hai, genki desu

<>

D575A-3 SD

Domo arigatoo gozaimasu.

When better dozers are built - Komatsu will build them.

Boycott Komatsu -

[Englander]

54. "Konnichi wa!"

:hi:

For those who don't know Japanese
(& that includes myself...);


"Konnichi wa, Iie Genki desu Ka? Hai, genki desu" =

"Hello,are you (not) well? Yes,(I'm) fine."

"Domo arigatoo gozaimasu." =

"Thank you very much."

__________________________________


--"Boycott Komatsu"

Why? Are they involved in any illegal activity?

[Coastie for Truth]

55. San Jose Presby Minister - Presbyterian Church unfair in targeting Israel

Note - heavily edited because it is a very long op-ed---> go to the original at http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/12423061.htm

<edit><
As a Presbyterian clergywoman with missionary roots in the Middle East, a strong commitment to human rights and peace, and a deep love of interfaith dialogue, I am dismayed and heartbroken by my denomination's actions regarding divestment. Not only has divestment, even ``selective divestment,'' contradicted and undermined a half-century of the church's commitment to a two-state solution, it has seriously eroded a much-valued relationship with the Jewish community.

For over 50 years, the Presbyterian Church has affirmed the rights of Israel and the Palestinians to exist within their own safe and secure borders. Church leaders cannot point backward to past ``even-handed'' commitments while we now place our political weight solely upon the Israeli side of the Middle East teeter-totter and call it balanced.

How can we speak about ``selective divestment'' from corporations like Caterpillar, because of a connection with the Israeli government and occupation, while failing to investigate selective divestment from oil companies in Saudi Arabia and their connection with funding Palestinian terrorism? After years of commitment not to take sides in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, what pitched us off course?

Our sense of timing is off. Just when Israel is departing from Gaza, our denomination announced which companies it has targeted for possible divestment. How ironic: Israel is leaving one of the occupied territories lock, stock and barrel, and we reward it with threats of punishment.
<edit><

Rev Kuiken adds that divestment is short-sighted and adds to the perception that we have lost any pretense of impartiality. The church's policy papers on divestment are no longer balanced. Misreading or simplistically truncating decades of Middle East history by stating that Israel's occupation of the West Bank "has proven to be the root of evil acts committed against innocent people on both sides of the conflict," is simply wrong. Terrorism against Israelis existed for years before the occupation.

Rev Kuiken also says that the concept of divestment is deeply tied to the moral imaginations of most Protestants over 45 with South Africa, where the systemic evil of apartheid called for prolonged tactics. Today's talk of divestment lends unwarranted moral support to those who crassly demonize Israel with the "apartheid" label while using "divestment" as a means to isolate, weaken and destroy Israel.

The Rev. Rebecca Kuiken is a Presbyterian pastor of the Stone Church of Willow Glen in San Jose and moderator of the San Jose Presbytery.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. This has to be mentioned: