Cindy shouldn't have started talking about "Palestine"

[Proud2BAmurkin]

I think it dilutes her effort.

[mattclearing]

1. This really needed a whole thread? n/t

[Maddy McCall]

2. I love these armchair critics.

No offense, but how would you have handled the stress that she endures every day?

She's not Karl Rove. She doesn't have a "handler." She speaks from the heart. We all make mistakes when we do that. That's what makes her human, and I fail to see how it "dilutes her effort"

[Proud2BAmurkin]

4. Fine but I hope she doesn't keep repeating it then

If it was a one time rant that's one thing but if she starts talking about Palestine and Israel when she's interviewed she blows it.

[Norquist Nemesis]

23. Agree

She needs to stay on message. When Israel and Palestine start creeping in, it's a whole 'nother ball game. Stick with Iraq and the lies.

[jsamuel]

116. she isn't a politician, she can rant about whatever she wants

we don't control her and we shouldn't

[Doo_Revolution]

125. Exactly. People just need to let it go, she's right anyway. n/t

[converted_democrat]

5. Well said!!! n/t

[H2O Man]

7. The perfect response ....

Thank you.

[donsu]

8. talking about Palistine is not a mistake

not talking about Palistine is a mistake

[comsymp]

17. Now THAT was well said.

Agreed with the spirit of Post #2, except for the "mistake" comment.

Besides, how the hell can you talk about the ME and our role there without mentioning Palestine, anyway!?

[SillyGoose]

37. You are so right, donsu.

:thumbsup:

[Maddy McCall]

44. My point is that she isn't scripted...

to avoid controversy at every turn. She has said many controversial things--that's why I admire her and why I will shake her hand next week.

[H2O Man]

59. Many people made the same complaints

about Martin Luther King, Jr. when he spoke out against the Vietnam war. They wanted Martin to stay focused on integrated coffee counters and public toilets. They were concerned the opposition would be upset by King's talking about the war. They were upset that King might be using a "shopping list."

I'm glad that King spoke out.

[Maddy McCall]

64. Yes. The Civil Rights Movement was the parent of so many other...

movements that originated WITHIN the civil rights movement. So many things that we learned from the civil rights movement are still utilized in current movements, the most powerful of which is grassroots involvement.

Look at Crawford and see the hundreds of people pouring into town right now. That's evidence of good grassroots efforts and a groundswell that can't be contained.

:hug:

[H2O Man]

78. Absolutely correct.

It's important to recognize the connection between events/situations. Those who are unabled to recognize the connection between the violence in Iraq that killed Cindy's son, and the violence in Palestine, would do well to learn more before saying the two are not connected. The two are without any question as related as King's civil rights and anti-war efforts.

[WCGreen]

25. Here Here Maddy....

The woman is not a professional....

Having expereinced a microphone or two shoved at me with out warning, I can attest that the professional filters are not in place...

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Yes, she should have. She's talking about what REALLY causes

actual terrorism and comparing it to what ** is doing to "fix" it.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

6. She should have stuck to her own personal experience and IRAQ

.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Tell you what.

When your child dies in Iraq and you become a national figurehead for the anti-war movement, then I'll value your opinion.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

19. Whether U value my opinion doesn't mean talking "Palestine" is effective

She has a right to say what she wants but if she goes off on that tangent she might as well be talking to a wall

[Mairead]

61. Disagree. She's talking about the REAL causes, not the made-up stories

that BushCo and Media Inc. feed us as though we were infants.

Her kid died because of BushCo's lies. Those lies are based on Western colonialist exploitation that started ca. 150 years ago and continues non-stop today DESPITE being a gross violation of international law as agreed in the UN Charter.

She's doing the right thing.

[RetroLounge]

79. Some of us can handle two "tangents" at once

:eyes:

RL

[Proud2BAmurkin]

94. Some of US can but no Bush voting but pursuadable Repuke can.

That's the point.

[Maddy McCall]

99. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for looking out for Bush Republicans

:eyes:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

111. I said PURSUADABLE Bush Repukes

but you knew that.

Or don't you care about pursuading enough voters to win power back from scumbags like Idiot Son?

[bribri16]

97. That's exactly why the evil ones remain in power. Intimidation.

The cause of justice and peace is universal. MLK was criticized for getting into the Vietnam war but he was right. Cindy is right. A TIME TO BREAK THE SILENCE.

[Beaver Tail]

9. I agree

It is important to mention Palestine because it is part of a much bigger problem that includes Iraq and Afghanistan.

Edit here

And quite frankly, alot (not all) of the problems we encounter with Terrorism is becasue of the US stand on Palestine and Israel

[Coastie for Truth]

100. I would beg to disagree

and then go on over to and take a gander at -- a lot of it goes back to our "Friend of the House of Saud" "Junkie Appetite for Oil" response to 9-11 and to the Saudis and to the ME generally.

Our "response" to Peak Oil has been a military response. One of many multiple causes of 9/11 was that we put US troops (including females) on the holy ground of Saudi Arabia to protect the oil from "terrorists" and Saddam Hussein.

Our response to Peak Oil has been ever closer relationships with the House of Saud and ceding ever more control of our Foreign Policy to "Big Oil." Another of the many multiple causes of 9/11 was that many in the region perceive that the US is exploiting (in the Karl Marx sense) the Arab proletariat by supporting Big Oil.

Again, as our our response to Peak Oil has been ever closer relationships with the House of Saud, it is only natural that another of the many multiple causes of 9/11 was that many in the region perceive that the US is backing the autocratic House of Saud.

I have only been in the energy industry for 30+ years

[Ariana Celeste]

16. Exactly, something most Americans don't understand.

This woman is very informed, she knows what she is talking about. And this has to do with her sons death. Her son died because of Bushies bullshit, when something else could have been done. She knows what she's talking about.

On edit: My SO's stepdad is in Iraq right now, he volunteered to go. Whenever I talk about our misadventure in Iraq, I don't just talk about Iraq. Because terrorism is NOT just about Iraq. He is a good man who cares about his family and his country, and it pisses me off beyond belief that he could possibly die for a shitbucket of lies.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

24. Most Americans won't be moved by a grieving mother who wants to "educate"

them. "I want Idiot Son to tell me why my son died" is all she had to say to be effective in making people think.

[Ariana Celeste]

33. I support what she is doing

and every step she is taking. She is making a statement and informing some people a long the way. I have to have some hope that she will help the antiwar movement and help to bring the rest of our loved ones home. Why shouldn't she use information? It is completely relevant to what is going on. She sure is getting a lot of support and more media coverage than expected for not doing it your way.

[JDPriestly]

11. RIght. Stick to the subject.

She will be labeled a kook the minute she gets off topics. The pundits have claimed the right to analyze for themselves. They don't want any competition from amateurs. Her son was not killed in Palestine. There is no oil in Palestine. Iraq really has very little to do with what is going on in Palestine/Israel in my view. Iraq is about oil pure and simple.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

12. Yup. "My son died for no reason. None of Idiot Son's reasons hold up"

end of message. A Palestine tangent will kill her credibility.

[Caleb]

13. I agree with you

:thumbsup:

[Beaver Tail]

YOu are not connecting the dots.

Palestine has nothing to offer so you are correct on this but Israel has no Oil either. Why the Support of Israel? It will do what the US tells it too. If there was no Oil interest in the Middle East we would not see so much support for Israel. No support for Israel and a lot of the problems for the Palestine plight disappears.

Palestine in the big picture is about Oil because they are less likely to support the US like Israel does.

[Ariana Celeste]

39. Right wingers are labeling her that way anyways!

And they would no matter whether she mentions Palestine or not. Because she isn't cheerleading for *them*.

[lildreamer316]

14. ANYONE can talk about it.

Pay taxes? If we do anything as a country involving Palestine, then technically *you* are involved. Therefore you have a right to talk about it
Now, common sense would dictate that you would educate yourself first (this coming from someone who is NOT so well informed on the subject)But you still have a right to.
Besides; great example of free speech.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

I didn't say I thought it should be illegal. Just that it will

wreck a good opportunity for any of her message including that part to have any effect.

[lildreamer316]

21. Not illegal

Just kinda a right; knowwhutImean? Not a biggie anyway; it will be passed over I think.

[RetroLounge]

81. Well, might I suggest you go down to Crawford

and set her straight. I'm sure she'll appreciate it.

Oh, and bring her some cold water.

RL

[Caleb]

15. She can talk about it

As long as she doesn't say stuff like Israel is controling America, or we are in Iraq because of Israel/Jews, no one will think she's a kook.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

20. Uh, I don't have to walk in her shoes to state an opinion

What are you, a Repuke?

[geek tragedy]

22. Will she talk about Mumia next? eom

[Caleb]

26. What exactly did she

say about the Israel-Palestinian issue though?

[Maddy McCall]

28. Wait. Several posts ago, you agreed that she fucked up...

and now you're admitting that you don't even know what she said???

Beautiful. :eyes:

[Caleb]

30. No, I'm just curious

[geek tragedy]

29. I dunno. One of the main weaknesses of leftist protestors is the

"laundry list" approach to protesting.

She has an intensely personal story to share about losing her son in this awful and false war.

But, she did not lose her son to IDF bullets.

[Maddy McCall]

34. You are criticizing "leftist protesters.: My question for you is...

Are you a progressive? Have you ever protested? If not, then what are you doing to help get our country back?

[Caleb]

38. You can be a progressive

And be pro-Israel, by the way.

[The Stranger]

46. Actually, Israel is run by the extreme Right Wing, yet some who

call themselves "progressives" support Israel no matter what it does.

[Caleb]

50. And America is run by the extreme right Right Wing

I guess using your logic, a progressive can't be pro-American.

There's a difference between supporting a nation and supporting their government.

[The Stranger]

55. There are also those who claim "my country right or wrong,"

and some seem to apply that to both the U.S. and Israel.

That is, now matter what Israel does, they simply cannot countenance any criticism of it.

[Coastie for Truth]

119. And there are some self-anointed "Progressives"

who maintain that anything Israel does is inherently evil (I will abstain from the psychodynamics and pop theology on that one), and these are the same self-anointed "Progressives" who maintain that anything the US is, by definition, the ultimate evil.

[Jim Sagle]

115. That's because those who want to destroy Israel want to kill the Jews.

Why does this still need explaining?

[Mairead]

126. I think you very *VERY* badly need to check your facts

That's the most fact-free assertion I've seen in a long time.

[Jim Sagle]

129. Bull.

[Mairead]

130. No, any "bull" is contained in your breathtakingly-insulting comment

[Jim Sagle]

131. I'm just saying 2 + 2 is 4.

[Mairead]

132. You're being fscking insulting is what you're doing.

You cannot POSSIBLY back up anything you've claimed.

[Jim Sagle]

134. The earth is round. Do I need to back that up as well?

[Mairead]

137. When you want to insult groups of people, you need to back up your claims.

A claim that the earth is round reflects mere ignorance, not actual malice.

[Jim Sagle]

138. Instant replay:

A claim that the earth is round reflects mere ignorance, not actual malice.

Some jokes just write themselves. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Mairead]

139. Ignorance vs malice

'The true shape of the Earth called an Oblate Spheroid. The term "Oblate" refers to it's slightly oblong appearance. The term "Spheroid" means that it is almost a sphere, but not quite.'

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/earthsci/units/introduction/oblate.cfm

And now I'm done with you.

[Jim Sagle]

140. You won't be missed.

[Coastie for Truth]

118. What is your definition of "extreme right wing"

and what does the phrase "is run by" mean?

[Maddy McCall]

51. Where did I say that you couldn't? But let's look at the protestations...

in this thread. They are saying that Cindy mentioning Palestine diluted her message.

They aren't arguing over whether one can or cannot be pro-Israeli and progressive.

Why are you trying to turn it into that kind of thread?

Now, from you, tell me--have you read her comment yet, and, if so, tell me why you oppose Cindy speaking her mind.

Thanks in advance. :hi:

[Caleb]

56. Yes I found her comments

I don't oppose ANYONE from speaking their minds.

Sorry if you think I ruined the thread.

[geek tragedy]

40. I can certainly critique whether the message is effective or not.

And the 'laundry list' isn't an effective mode of protest. Never has been, never will be.

[Maddy McCall]

47. Explain the "laundry list" to this naive but experienced protester.

Thanks in advance.

[geek tragedy]

63. Oh, let's see here now:

1. Iraq
2. Patriot Act
3. Israel Palestine
4. Mumia
5. Global warming/environment
6. Anti-globalization/anti-capitalism
7. Afghanistan

[Maddy McCall]

65. Now tell me how those issues aren't related.

Hmm?

[geek tragedy]

68. Mumia and global warming and corporate globalization

have precious little to do with Afghanistan or the Patriot Act.

[Maddy McCall]

75. You are deluded if you believe that.

[geek tragedy]

84. Yep. Thanks for enlightening me with your profound wisdom and insight.

Free Mumia to repeal the Patriot Act to save the environment to get the US out of Afghanistan to fight corporate greed!

Toodles.

[Maddy McCall]

86. You don't think that the Patriot Act, Iraq, Afghanistan, and global...

economic domination are tied together? You don't think that globalism has affected the environment?

Sure, throw one odd thing in there, and then say none of them are related. I'd like to know the name of the community college where you earned your philosophy degree.

:eyes:

[Andromeda]

122. Probably not the same community college

where you earned yours. :+

[Generator]

27. I agree

Though I would say cut her a break...I noticed it's front page on the Crawford Peace House..so I guess she's got talking points from them.

[Freddie Stubbs]

104. What exactly did she say?

:shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

106. This...

"Sheehan commented: "And the other thing I want him to tell me is: 'Just what was the noble cause Casey died for? Was it freedom and democracy? Bull****! He died for oil. He died to make your friends richer. He died to expand American imperialism in the Middle East. We're not freer here, thanks to your Patriot Act. Iraq is not free. You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism!'"

http://www.workers.org/2005/us/sheehan-0818/

[Freddie Stubbs]

108. There is a lot to be said for staying on message

It makes it a lot harder for the press to decide what to write about.

[CBGLuthier]

31. What's the difference

Between you saying she shouldn't talk about palestine and the RW saying she shouldn't be talking period?

Yeah, maybe it will hurt her message to go a bit off topic, but since it is HER message, who has the right to say what HER message's topic should be?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

36. I'm saying NONE of her message will get thru if

if she goes off on a Palestine tangent

[CBGLuthier]

42. But that would be HER problem wouldn't it?

I think what you are really saying is She will hurt our or your message.

As I said, it's her message. It's her stand. Let HER handle it how she will.

When you or I am ready to make a public stand then you or I will be in charge of the message.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

45. She has every right to say what she wants but it will be in vain if

she looks like the issue is a broad agenda and not her son who died for no reason but Idiot Son's idiocy

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. What exactly did she say?

:shrug:

[Rainbowreflect]

35. I'm sorry, but what right does anyone have to tell this women

what she can or cannot/should or should not say?
GO CINDY!
I Love You! :loveya:

[The Stranger]

41. Why do you have it in quotes?

Don't believe the Palestinians deserve an independent, unoccupied state?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

43. Because it doesn't exist right now.

Yes I agree they do.

[Caleb]

48. Palestine doesn't exist yet

[The Stranger]

49. Now the real "progressives" are coming out.

So are you saying you don't believe the Palestinians deserve their own independent, unoccupied state?

[Caleb]

52. I never said that

When did I say that? LOL.

Palestine doesn't exist yet. And yes they deserve their own independent, unoccupied and secure state.

[Jim Sagle]

117. Palestine doesn't exist yet. Means what it says.

[Maddy McCall]

53. Careful, Caleb. You're tipping your hand.

:7

[Caleb]

57. Tipping my hand?

What's that mean?

[geek tragedy]

96. Because some folks around here think that Israelis are foreigners

in their own country.

[thereismore]

54. The moral authority of Cindy Sheehan is absolute. She can say whatever

the hell she wants to.

[Maddy McCall]

60. Damned straight.

:toast:

[RetroLounge]

83. Exactly!

RL

[knitter4democracy]

58. I know one person she lost from our side over it.

I know a knitter from another site who is royally pissed about her comments, saying she's just another anti-Israel liberal. She is normally a very pro-troops kind of person, and I really thought Cindy would get through to her, but that one comment about getting Israel out of Palestine lost her completely.

I don't think she's the only one.

[Orrex]

69. With respect, though...

It sounds like this knitter wasn't on "our side" anyway. Sure, she might eventually have seen the light as a result of this protest, but it's not Ms. Sheehan's job to convert or convince anyone.

[knitter4democracy]

77. No, but I was hoping it would.

Isn't that part of why she's doing it--to reach people and make them question what the war's about? If pro-troops, pro-war people won't listen to her, they won't listen to anyone.

[Orrex]

89. I'm afraid that you may have stated it exactly correctly

If, at this stage of the game, the pro-troops/pro-war crowd can't recognize the murderous folly of Dubya's insane crusade, then they won't be enlightened no matter how bright a spotlight is shone on Ms. Sheehan.

Further, I suspect that if the knitter was so readily turned-off to what Ms. Sheehan is saying, then she (and others like her) wasn't about to turn against The Dark Side, either.

[knitter4democracy]

109. True.

She's pretty far into the dark, from what I've read on her blog. *sigh* I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.

[Maddy McCall]

70. And how many has she gained by sitting her ass on a road in Crawford?

Anyone who wants to hold disdain for a surviving mother of a slain soldier because she said ONE FREAKING THING with which they disagreed is no big loss to me.

I know many people here in my little Mississippi hometown who have formed an email chain to keep each other aprised of what's happening at Camp Casey. Many of the people in the chain have never been politically active. And they are giving donations to be delivered to Crawford next week.

[knitter4democracy]

80. That's awesome!

An e-mail chain? Cool!

I understand what you're saying about how they're looking for anything to discredit what she's saying as a reason to not listen, and that's right. I just was hoping this would get through to her, that's all.

[Maddy McCall]

91. Hugs to you, knitter.

I apologize if I'm a little fired up this morning. :hug:

[knitter4democracy]

110. Hey, we're all fired up right now. We're cool.

Heck, I've been censured at a knitting site for starting a Cindy thread there. It was dumb of me, considering the rules and all, but I was all fired up and upset.

:hug: Back at ya!

[Mairead]

71. Too bad. Likudniki and their fellow-travellers aren't on our side anyway

It's like cringing and grovelling so as not to upset the DINOs -- why should anyone CARE about them!?

[geek tragedy]

98. You use the term "Likudniki" very loosely. eom

[Andromeda]

123. Why should we take you seriously when you...

carelessly and thoughtlessly call people who don't agree you DINOs and Likudniks. I don't know whose "side" you think you're representing but it's certainly not mainstream Democrats, or mainstream America.

Progressives can be pro-Israel too because the Democrats have a big tent with many schools of thought and divergent opinions. We are supposed to be tolerant of the views of others because that's what the Democratic party stands for. I don't agree with a lot of policies put forth by some of our party leaders but I'm working to change that county by county, within my state and nationally.

Extreme leftists such as you expect progressives to fall in lockstep with your purist idealogy.

[Mairead]

124. I certainly don't expect DINOs or Likudniki to agree with me

but I also don't care. I'd feel worried if they did, honestly.

I don't know whether you've ever stopped to think about it, but history tells us that humans seem to be gradually moving in a certain well-defined direction. That movement is toward greater respect for the rights of other living creatures.

Five hundred years ago, Christopher Columbus gleefully wrote in his log that the people living on the Caribbean island where he dropped anchor had no way to defend themselves and could therefore be enslaved at absolutely no cost to the enslavers. Today, his attitude of superiority and careless brutality would have to be dissembled and hidden if he wanted to avoid imprisonment. It's no longer acceptable to most people--not even to 'mainstream Democrats' or 'mainstream America' for someone to behave in the way that was normal for him and his contemporaries.

Three hundred years ago, Europeans started flooding into the Americas and southern Africa, arrogating to themselves the land, killing and enslaving the aboriginal, pre-industrial peoples. Everybody thought that was perfectly normal and fine. Everybody except the victims, of course; we have some evidence that they didn't much like being enslaved or killed. But they were only heathens and not the right color, and they didn't have a flag, so what they thought about it didn't count.

Starting in the early 1800s and continuing for about 70 years, outright enslavement of humans gradually stopped being legal. It didn't matter whether someone was a heathen or their skin was darker--they had the right not to be owned.

In 1946, after a 6-year-long worldwide war in which tens of millions of people were killed, the victors put the losers on trial, and hanged several of them. Their crime? Starting a war. The big countries and many of the smaller ones also formed an international organisation to try to outlaw war - to make war and the enslavement of a whole country -colonialism- as unacceptable as the enslavement of individuals.

Despite that, during the period 1946-48 the US and UK helped a small group of unreconstructed European colonialists invade and take over the land of Palestine, evicting or killing the Arab people who'd lived and farmed there for a thousand years. And the US has kept that small group of colonialists in power ever since.

In 1990, the last major outpost of colonialism in sub-Saharan Africa began to dissolve: South Africa began the process of ending Apartheid and converting to majority political rule (ending the economic knock-on effects of Apartheid has hardly even begun, tho).

In 2003, many Democrats signed off on BushCo's colonialist invasion of Iraq, and continue to support that colonialism today as well as supporting the ongoing colonialist occupation of Palestine.

So when you say

Progressives can be pro-Israel too because the Democrats have a big tent with many schools of thought and divergent opinions. We are supposed to be tolerant of the views of others because that's what the Democratic party stands for.

it tells me that you don't really understand the dictionary definition of 'progressive', and that you don't see anything wrong with the fact that many Democrats are still mentally living in a 1930s colonialist ethical environment where only some people have the right to political self-determination.

[Andromeda]

144. I didn't say that.

You twisted my words. I wouldn't expect you to agree with Likuniks and DINOs or them to you. My remark was about the fact that you seem to use this terminology rather loosely and I'm wondering why you have to label everybody a DINO or a Likudnik IF they don't agree with you. There's a big difference.

Also, I know what the word progressive means and I also know many progressives who are pro-Israel, or at least they don't have this mind-numbing hatred towards Jews that I often see on this forum.

Stop putting labels on people because you know that not all of us fit into a neat little box. I don't ascride to a "my way or the highway" kind of philosophy and a lot of far-left zealots believe that you can't stray from the party line and have no tolerance for another point of view.

Your statement tells me that you need to get out of the textbooks and into life.

[barb162]

181. I agree with you. Some people

on these boards have little to no tolerance for someone else being a centimeter off their position. If they are off that much, they are often labelled freepers and worse. In some respects, freedom of speech and the Bill of Rights in general get very little tolerance around here some days.

[Andromeda]

188. Thanks, barb...

n/t

[Jim Sagle]

133. I'm a fellow traveller. I'm not on YOUR side, that's for doubledamn

sure.

[leftynyc]

183. Same here

The terminally self-rightous are boringly predictable.

[WinkyDink]

62. ITA

Her mission should NOT get hijacked (yes, I use the word deliberately) by the "anti-Zionist" groups.
JMO.

[geek tragedy]

66. Israel/Palestine is not what killed her son.

Bringing in outside issues just makes it look like she's being exploited by activists with agendas.

I care about what she says about Iraq and Bush.

I don't give a flying fuck what she thinks about Israel/Palestine.

[Maddy McCall]

72. Well, I am sure that Cindy will appreciate your letter of support that...

you wrote to her, praising her comments on Iraq and Bush.

Wait. You did write her a letter, didn't you?

Or are you just tapping away on your computer, ridiculing someone who's out there DOING SOMETHING, while you sit on your butt doing nothing?

Which is it?

[RetroLounge]

85. You want to do something, go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4290470

RL

[Mairead]

92. Yes, the invasion and occupation of Palestine *IS* what killed her kid

If it weren't for the colonialist idea that we superior European-origin beings have the right to invade and take over whatever land or resources we like, her kid would probably still be alive.

Western powers, including the US, have been dicking over the Arabs for 150 years. The EuroZionist invasion and occupation of Palestine with UK and US support (the equivalent of the cops holding the victim for the benefit of the mugger) has been a focal point for anti-colonialist resentments for 50 years. The UN Charter --so new in 1948 that the US signatures were hardly dry-- forbade that takeover, but of course we have the right to ignore anything that's not convenient, don't we.

Except that there are people putting their lives on the line every day now to tell us that no we damned well don't have any such right and to get the hell out of their country. Casey was killed by some of them.

Should I feel astonished that you seem so unable to understand that?

[geek tragedy]

95. Wait, her kid died because Israel EXISTS?

Sorry, this is where I get off the Loony-Tunes Express.

Her kid died because a giant Western power with strongimperialist tendencies decided to invade an oil-rich country with a hostile leader.

Ariel Sharon didn't commit US troops to fight in Iraq. Her kids wasn't shot by the IDF.

[barb162]

182. I wonder where you get this...it is simply incorrect

"Western powers, including the US, have been dicking over the Arabs for 150 years"

[Violet_Crumble]

187. You should try educating yrself on the Middle East...

Try putting down that worn version of 'Let's Blame The Ayrabs For Everything' by I.M. Abigot and instead attempt to learn a bit of basic stuff about the Middle East. The Middle East is an area where western powers have been 'dicking around' the Arabs for ast least the past century. They've done so in order to exploit the resources of the region, and anyone who claims they haven't obviously knows jack shit about the Middle East...

Violet...

[Orrex]

67. Another log on the fire

IMO, it only "dilutes her effort" if we're trying to force her "effort" to mesh with some larger DU-acceptable agenda. I believe that her effort is whatever she wants it to be, and it would be grossly incorrect of us to try and steer her protest in the direction that we would choose.

If her protest coincides with or draws attention to points that DU (and liberals in general) would like to have addressed under the national spotlight, then that's great! But her protest should follow its own course as she determines it.

Any effort to commandeer her loss would be the same pseudo-moral pandering that the Right so readily embraces. We should thank her, grieve with her, and appreciate her, but we should not dictate to her.

I suspect that your concern is sincere, but I think in this case it is misplaced.

[Ariana Celeste]

76. Well stated

This is her moment.

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. One cannot talk about U.S. policy in the Middle East without talking about

Palestine--I suppose if the issue is only Iraq then we can put most or all of the blame on the Bush Administration. Palestine goes much deeper. If the only goal is to harm the Bush Administration--perhaps she should stay on Iraq and avoid a message that is divisive in the Democratic Party.(although I don't understand why it is okay in some "liberals" minds to criticize U.S. policy but not Israeli policy) If the goal is a lasting and just peace and to actually reduce the threat of terrorism then Palestine is unavoidable.

____________________




http://www.iwtnews.com/

[laura888]

136. Well said. Agree completely. n/t

[Spazito]

74. Bullshit, she can say whatever is in her heart, imo

Those who don't care for it, don't listen or read about what she says then, it's as easy as that.

[alkaline9]

82. I think that she is doing a good job.

IMHO if she continues with the simple line of "give me a reason" it might get old or make her out to be very simple-minded... We ALL know that's simply not true.

Perhaps now that she has begun to get more of a national spotlight she is using it to further point out that our gov't is f*cked! I say Go Cindy!

However, I can understand how some might think her message would be diluted by going (seemingly) off topic. In some aspects it would seem that staying strictly to her demand to talk to shrub about why her son died could make for a better news story ... something like "37 days and one simple question still unanswered".

But her job isn't to make an easy headline for MSM. Her job is to make her son's death meaningful. If she decides to stray a little to something that is actually related in the big picture, I say go for it! People who disagree with her will ALWAYS disagree. People who are on her side though may not be aware of the bigger picture. Make sense?

Keep talking Cindy, we'll keep listening. We think what you're doing is honorable and true.

[RetroLounge]

87. I don't believe Palestine is spelled with quotes

except by those with an agenda.

RL

[Must_B_Free]

88. Locking

this thread is flamebait

[smartvoter]

90. I'm not going to jump on the dog pile and squeeze out your last

breath here. The way I read your comment is that it wasn't strategically sound on her part -- not that she has no right to speak, which is what many interpreted from it. Her enemies are already beating her over the head with it, from what I've read, so your point is taken.

But she is not a politician. She doesn't have handlers. She is an "everywoman" who lost a son over a war launched on false premise. We can't expect that she'll be as calculating and careful as battle-hardened politicians and attack dogs. I think she's better for it, frankly. I like that about her.

[Swamp Rat]

93. Geaux Cindy!!!

:yourock:

[Freddie Stubbs]

101. Can someone please tell me what exaclty she said?

:shrug:

[CWebster]

102. The big taboo

no one breathe a word about the camps.

[tucoramirez2005]

186. Too true.

Overnight she went from media darling to crackpot.

[Scurrilous]

103. Hey Cindy...

..."watch what you say!"

LOL

[Tinoire]

105. The woman rocks. There's not ONE word she's said that I disagree with

The woman rocks. There's not ONE word she's said that I disagree with
Anyone supporting injustice in Palestine, supports injustice everywhere and they're no friends of the antiwar movement. To hell with them and go Cindy! You rock on girl saying the things that we are not allowed to discuss except in the darkest of dungeons where the ever-watchful eyes of certain people who seek to prevent open discussion of the injustice to the Palestinians can more easily try to control the conversation.

Cindy girl, :yourock: and you speak for me.

=================
In a hard-hitting letter sent to producers following a 'Townhall Meeting' broadcast in March 2005, Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a U.S. soldier who was killed in Sadr City, Iraq, on April 4, 2004, expressed her distress and frustration at their failure to offer a fair and balanced show. But more than that, she provided considerable insight into the sad fact that the so-called 'mainstream media' had become a 'propaganda tool' for the Bush administration.

Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel.My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full-well that my son, my family, this nation, and this world were betrayed by George (W.) Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agenda after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy...not for the real reason, because the Arab-Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy. That hasn't changed since America invaded and occupied Iraq...in fact it has gotten worse.

Sheehan, 48, traveled to the president's Crawford ranch Saturday after Bush said that fallen U.S. troops had died for a 'noble cause' and that the mission must be completed.

I want to ask the president, "Why did you kill my son? What did my son die for?" Sheehan told reporters. "Last week, you said my son died for a noble cause" and I want to ask him what that noble cause is?


http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20405

==


(Moderators, this is DU poster Reprehensor's transcript, and he has authorized full reprints requesting this be passed around.



The Veterans for Peace National Convention wraps up today at the University of Dallas in Irving, Texas.

Thursday and Friday saw the vets check-in, and attend workshops that varied from Stan Goff’s ‘Gender & Militarism’ to ‘Speaking Truth to Power’ which featured Ann Wright, Coleen Rowley, and Cindy Sheehan was no exception.[br />
Here is what she had to say:

Cindy Sheehan: It’s so great to be here.

Last year when you guys had your convention in Boston, my son had only been dead a few months, and we were really honored because the Santa Barbara chapter took my daughter’s poem A Nation Rocked to Sleep, (and they did it again this year), and I remember Michael Cervantes, he brought the booklet over to our house and showed it to us, and I never dreamed in a year I’d be standing here in front of you as one of the speakers at your convention, I never dreamed I’d be doing this at all, but isn’t it weird what life hands you…

I never heard about Veterans for until, I can tell you the exact day I heard about VFP, it was May 4th, 2004, and my son had been dead exactly a month, and I was watching CNN, and something came on, it was a report on Arlington West in Santa Barbara, and we lived about 6 hours north of Santa Barbara, and it was the May 4th before Mother’s Day, which was May 8th, and VFP was going to put it up on Sunday, every Sunday, so I called my husband and I said, “There’s only one place I want to be on Mother’s Day this year, I want to be at Santa Barbara. I want to go and see Arlington West.”

When we went, the first time we went, there was a little over 700 crosses, now there’s over 1,800 crosses.

And I’m glad to hear everybody else’s words, because somebody’s gotta stop those lying bastards. Somebody has to stop them.

I got an email yesterday - - If you guys heard I just had a story published that talks about - - it’s called Where Do I Live?, it talks about an Iranian-American who got the shaft because a recruiter liked him, and the recruiter falsified his paperwork, so he ended up in prison. He’s been in prison since November without due process. Another mother whose son was found dead in Iraq, they told her that he died from a drug overdose. Three months later, they got the toxicology report; no drugs. She was devastated, she said, “I know my son, he did not do drugs.” She was told that her son’s wife and his battle buddies said in a report that yes, her son abused drugs in Iraq. But when she got that report it said categorically that no, he did not abuse drugs. So how did her son die?

And then there’s Kevin and Monica Benderman. Kevin did exactly the right thing and got 15 months in prison. Whereas like Dahr (Jamail) said, the war criminals in Washington, D.C., they don’t even lose a night’s sleep. Then we have this lying bastard, George Bush, taking a 5-week vacation in a time of war. You know what? I’m never going to get to enjoy another vacation, because of him.

My vacation probably - -this is really sad because I have a really cute dress I was going to wear to the banquet tomorrow night, but I’m either gonna be in jail or in a tent in Crawford, waiting until that jerk comes out and tells me why my son died.

Anyway, I got an email, I kinda got off track, a man emailed me yesterday, I get contacted by all kinds of people with their stories, and he said Cindy, I read everything you write, I read it on LewRockwell.com, he said, “I get tears in my eyes, but today I cried real tears, and I screamed, because my dear sweet nineteen ear-old cousin was killed in Iraq.”

And he said, “Cindy, why didn’t I save him? Why didn’t I knock him out, why didn’t I take him to Canada?” and I wrote him back and I said, “You know what? We all think that.”

I said to my son not to go. I said, you know it’s wrong, you know you’re going over there. You know your unit might have to kill innocent people, you know you might die. And he says, “My buddies are going, I have to go.” He said, “If I don’t go someone’s going to have to do my job, and my buddies will be in danger.”

So what really gets me is these chickenhawks, who sent our kids to die, without ever serving in a war themselves. They don’t know what it’s all about.

30 of our bravest young men have already died this month, and it’s only the 5th of August. And the tragedy of the marines in Ohio is awful.

But do you guys remember back in March when we were having our 2nd year anniversary of the invasion of Iraq which was pre-empted by Terry Schiavo, so that’s all that was on the news, not 5,000 of us in Fayetteville, Wolf Blitzer said it was insignificant, but they put Terry Schiavo on, and I wrote something then called The Amazing Hypocrites and I asked why does she deserve life more than my son, and the Iraqi people? And more than the other people that this war has killed.

But do you think George Bush will interrupt his vacation and go visit the families of those 20 marines that have died in Ohio this week? No, because he doesn’t care, he doesn’t have a heart. That’s not enough to stop his little ‘playing cowboy’ game in Crawford for 5 weeks.

So, as you can imagine, the grieving parents who lost - - lost, I don’t like to use that word, whose child was murdered, it’s extremely difficult, you can’t even get a small scab on our wound, because every day it rips open. Every day, I don’t know why I do it because I already know that war is ugly, I already know that war is hard. But I open up the DOD site to see, who became an angel, while I was sleeping.

And that rips my heart open, because I know there is another mother whose life is going to be ruined that day. So we can’t even begin to heal.

---------------------------------------------------------

So anyway that filth-spewer and warmonger, George Bush was speaking after the tragedy of the marines in Ohio, he said a couple things that outraged me. Seriously outraged me. And I know I don’t look like I’m outraged, I’m always so calm and everything, that’s because if I started hitting something, I wouldn’t stop ‘til it was dead. So I can’t even start, cause I know how dangerous that would be, but George Bush was talking, and he never mentioned the terrible incident of those marines, but he did say, that the families of the ones who have been killed can rest assured that their loved ones died for a noble cause.

And, he also said, he says this often, and this really drives me crazy, he said that we have to stay in Iraq and complete the mission, to honor the sacrifices of the ones who have fallen.

And I say, why should I want one more mother to go through what I’ve gone through, because my son is dead. You know what, the only way he can honor my son’s sacrifice is to bring the rest of the troops home. To make my son’s death count for peace and love, and not war and hatred like he stands for.

I don’t want him using my son’s death or my family’s sacrifice to continue the killing. I don’t want him to exploit the honor of my son and others to continue the killing. They sent these honorable people to die, and are so dishonorable themselves.

So, as many of you have heard, and I didn’t mean to cause any problems with the convention, but I was writing an email to everybody, and I was so mad, like I said, and I just had this brainstorm, I’m going to Dallas, I don’t know where Crawford is. I’ve been in Texas, Casey was stationed at Fort Hood. I drove from northern California to Fort Hood one time, it took like, 30 hours. And I thought, I could be driving for days to get from Dallas to Crawford!

But I don’t care, I’m goin’. And I’m gonna tell them, “You get that evil maniac out here, cuz a Gold Star Mother, somebody who’s blood is on his hands, has some questions for him.”

And I’m gonna say, “OK, listen here, George. #1, you quit, and I demand, every time you get out there and say you’re going to continue the killing in Iraq to honor the fallen heroes by continuing the mission; you say, ‘except Casey Sheehan.’”

“And you say ‘except for all the members of Goldstar Families for Peace’ cuz we think not one drop of blood should be spilled in our families’ names. You quit doing that. You don’t have my permission.”

And I’m gonna say, “And you tell me, what the noble cause is that my son died for.” And if he even starts to say ‘freedom and democracy’ I’m gonna say, bullshit.

You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don’t tell me my son died for ‘freedom and democracy.’

Cuz, we’re not freer. You’re taking away our freedoms. The Iraqi people aren’t freer, they’re much worse off than before you meddled in their country.

You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine…

(massive round of applause)

And if you think I won’t say bullshit to the President, I say move on, cuz I’ll say what’s on my mind.

So, what’s gonna happen? I started this, I thought it was gonna be just me and my sister driving to Crawford, but it kind of mushroomed and people from as far away as Dayton, Ohio are coming, to help us, to stand behind us, because I travel all over the country, I speak, I write, I get feedback on my writing, and just in the little over a year that I’ve been doing this, I’ve seen a major turnaround in this country.

People don’t just want to hear it, they want to know, what can we do? What can we do to get him out of power? And I’m gonna say the ‘I’ word. Impeach. And we have to have everybody impeached that lied to the American public, and that’s the executive branch, and any people in congress, and we gotta go all the way down and we might have to go all the way down to the person who picks up the dogshit in Washington because…

We can’t let somebody rise to the top who will pardon these war criminals. Because they need to go to prison for what they’ve done in this world. We can’t have a pardon. They need to pay for what they’ve done.

So anyway, I’m gonna go to Crawford tomorrow, and I’m gonna say I want to talk to him, and they say, he’s not coming out, I’m gonna set up my tent there until he comes out to talk to me.

And I have the whole month of August off, just like him. It’s just the way it worked out, I was supposed to go to England tomorrow to do some Downing Street things, but Conyers cancelled, so hey, I have a lot of free time on my hands, and I’m gonna stay until he comes out and talks to me. And if he quits his vacation and goes to D.C., I’ll pull my tent up, I’ll go to D.C., and put it on the White House lawn, and I’ll be waiting for you guys when you get there September 24th.

Another thing that I’m doing is - - my son was killed in 2004, so I’m not paying my taxes for 2004. If I get a letter from the IRS, I’m gonna say, you know what, this war is illegal; this is why this war is illegal. This war is immoral; this is why this war is immoral. You killed my son for this. I don’t owe you anything. And if I live to be a million, I won’t owe you a penny.

And I want them to come after me, because unlike what you’ve been doing with the war resistance, I want to put this frickin’ war on trial. And I want to say, “You give me my son, and I’ll pay your taxes.”

I live in Bacaville, come and get me if you can find me there and put me on trial, because like Camilo (Mejia), Camilo knew what was right. And he went to prison for that. And Henry David Thoreau he went to prison, he refused to pay his poll tax, and Emerson, I call them HT and RW, and RW came to visit HT and said what are you doing here, buddy? And HT said, why aren’t you here? This is the only place for a moral person in an immoral world.

It’s up to us, the people, to break immoral laws, and resist. As soon as the leaders of a country lie to you, they have no authority over you. These maniacs have no authority over us. And they might be able to put our bodies in prison, but they can’t put our spirits in prison. And I know that Camilo came out a much stronger person, he’s one of my heroes, it’s great a row of heroes in front of me here.

And everyone gave such great testimony this evening, I have to wonder, why do we keep doing this to each other? Why do we let this continue time and time again, why do let it happen? And it’s because our country, is so good at demonizing people, I still have relatives from WWII that still call Japanese people ‘Japs’. And we demonize the Iraqi people, where, most of this country doesn’t even think we’re killing innocent people.

Because, “Oh Cindy, don’t you remember what happened on September 11th?”

“Yeah, but, were any of those people in Iraq? And the people who flew those planes into the Trade Center, where they from Iraq?”

When I was growing up, it was ‘Communists’. Now it’s ‘Terrorists’. So you always have to have somebody to fight and be afraid of, so the war machine can build more bombs, guns, and bullets and everything.

But I do see hope. I see hope in this country. 58% of the American public are with us. We’re preaching to the choir, but the choir’s not singing, if all of the 58% started singing, this war would end.

I got an email the other day and it said, “Cindy, if you didn’t use so much profanity… there’s people ‘on the fence’ that get offended…”

And you know what I said? “You know what? You know what, god-damn-it? How, in the world is anybody still ‘sitting on that fence’?”

“If you fall on the side that is pro-George, and pro-war, you get your ass over to Iraq, and take the place of somebody who wants to come home. And if you fall on the side that is against this war and against George Bush, stand up and speak out.”

But whatever side you fall on, quit being on the fence.

The opposite of good is not evil, it’s apathy. And we have to get this country off their butts, and we have to get the choir singing.

We need to say, bring our troops home now. We can’t depend on the people in charge binging our troops home. Because you don’t plan on bringing the troops home when you drop so much of the reconstruction money into building permanent bases.

I was hoping to come to the banquet tomorrow night, but unless George comes out and talks to me, I’ll be camping at Crawford.

Thank you.

----------------------------------------------

(No copyright for non-commercial use. Pass it around. -r.)

[DistressedAmerican]

107. When You Have The Impact She Is Having I'll Care What You Have To Say.

Until then, I'll trust in the lady that has Bush trapped on his little hacienda!

[DemsUnite]

112. A compelling case is now splintered

[Tinoire]

113. Nothing more than the chaff separating from the wheat

Cindy Sheehan has said nothing more than Jews for Peace & Jewish Unity for a Just Peace have been saying for years.

Nothing is splintering at all. The Progressive movement for justice all over the world is currently solidifying and telling people who need 1001 exceptions to justice to get out of the way. There are NO exceptions to justice be they in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan or Latin America.

Cindy Sheehan addressed the root causes of this entire tragic mess. Shame on those who seek to reel her in and/or disparage her! FOR SHAME!

[Violet_Crumble]

128. You nailed it, Tinoire...

n/t

[Misskittycat]

141. Who appointed you Queen of the Progressives? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

142. She didn't claim she was...

Why? Are you reading a different post to everyone else?

Violet...

[bemildred]

148. Why do you ask? nt

[TomClash]

178. Great stuff

I especially like the Pipes link.

[Jacobin]

114. Um, its the basis for the whole clusterfuck we are in

So, we can't talk about it?

Bizarre.

[Coastie for Truth]

120. Whether it dilutes her effort or not

It is a free gift of a beautiful wedge issue to Karl Rove (if he isn't in jail by 2008).

[dejaboutique]

121. sure she should have

it is quite valid.

[xchrom]

127. lol -- that's funny!

wrong -- but funny.
:rofl:

[Seabiscuit]

135. I agree - this is about Iraq and Bush, not other "causes".

[Violet_Crumble]

143. What utter bullshit...

The way some folk are carrying on, you'd think she rattled off a long speech about the I/P conflict, instead of giving it a fleeting mention in something she said. For fucks sake, some people need to give the woman a break, because they're the people who are diluting her effort with attacks on her because she *gasp* dares to believe that Israel should get out of the Occupied Territories. She's a woman who's lost her child to Bush's illegal war in Iraq, she's not some highly polished politician with a PR team feeding her what to say. She speaks from her heart and should be commended for it instead of derided and attacked. Here in Australia, the media are picking up her story and her effort is coming through loud and clear - she wants Bush to talk to her about her son's death and he's refusing...

Violet...

[bemildred]

147. Oh come on Violet.

You know perfectly well that Israel/Palestine has NOTHING TO DO with Iraq or the Middle East, and there is no reason at all for anybody to EVER BRING IT UP when talking about Iraq. See?

[Lithos]

149. it dilutes things

It also is a highly simplistic view of the Middle East situation, it's causes and it's motivating factors.

Aramco, John Philby, the CIA (Iran), Lawrence of Arabia, Ibn Saud, Mubarak Al-Sabah, Nasser, Saddam, Bush, Rumsfeld, PNAC had absolutely nothing to do with it of course. They can plead ignorance for their actions because of Israel?

Sheesh. I have issues with the ultra-nationalists in Israel who I think are totally messed up, bigoted to the nth degree, and exert far too much influence over the general population, but they are far from the only ones, nor do they make Israel the primary reason for the mess in Iraq. The other Arab/Islamic countries have for years demonstrated their extreme indifference and lip-service to the Palestinian cause. When they've chosen to attack Israel it was not for the Palestinians, but to service their own individual nationalistic desires. They have proven time and time again that the Palestinian cause is a back burner and minor issue in the Arab world. Even Bin Laden's primary focus was on the US and their strong relationship/presence in Saudi Arabia which he felt was a corrupting influence and not Israel. So, what makes you think that all of a sudden the Palestinian cause (and thus Israel) has become the overriding consideration?

One of the great myths is that Israel is the dominating factor in controlling what goes on in the Middle East. Most of the evidence indicates just how reactive Israel has been to things which proves just how little control they do have.

The raid on Iraq's nuclear facilities? That was risky and far from a certain thing, if they had the control like everyone says they do, then it would never had been built in the first place. 1967 was purely reactive to Nasser. They were heavily surprised and embarrassed in 1973 - the myth of IDF invincibility destroyed.

Reactive Management is of course an oxymoron.

[bemildred]

150. Eh, of course, Israel is NOT the dominant factor.

Nor does it run US foreign policy, although it does like to meddle.

But there being actual Jews here with political rights and all, of course they have some standing as legitimate meddlers anyway, like the rest of us.

But I suspect that the whole thing is also peripheral in Ms Sheehan's view of things, hence the simplistic handling of the issue, and the attacks on her are similarly biased and simplistic, so I see no reason why I should adhere to more stringent rules.

Otherwise, I have long since given up on trying to stamp out simplistic views of the Middle East situation, and from observation, I would guess you have too.

I will certainly concede that a better informed and less cartoonish view of things would serve us all better.

[bemildred]

151. And FWIW:

I would agree with the OP and yourself that she would have done better to avoid the subject, nothing good will come of it.

[Violet_Crumble]

162. And why should she have avoided the subject?

That's what I don't get. I think it'd dilute the focus of what she's there for if she'd done something like give multiple long interviews solely about the I/P conflict, or perhaps claimed that the I/P conflict was the dominant factor in the US invasion of Iraq. But she didn't do that, and the only reason I can think of as to why she'd have done better to avoid the subject is that only in the US could she then be attacked soundly by fellow liberals for daring to voice her opinion that Israel should get out of Palestine, which after all is exactly the same opinion as the international community...

Violet...

[bemildred]

167. Consider these things:

1.) Assume her primary focus is the Iraq mess.
2.) Infer that, being very dangerous to the incumbent political dispensation, she will be attacked with any weapon that is handy.
3.) Consider that I/P has it's own dungeon and why that is so.
----
Therefore, by simply mentioning the I/P issue in any form she has handed the Bushites and Neocons a weapon, an issue to club her with and a distraction to vitiate the points she wants to hammer home about Iraq.

If you drop assumption #1 and assume she has a wider agenda, then of course she should talk about whatever she thinks relevant to that. I personally feel she is far more dangerous to the Bushites if she stays rigorously on the Iraq message. It is no accident that her comment about the I/P issues has been jumped on.

It's worth noting that the VRWC is attempting to paint her agenda as the wider one now, so taking the focus off Iraq suits them.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. That's a valid point...but...

From what I've been seeing happen, the Bush Brigade and its supporters don't need her help in finding weapons of distraction. I've seen articles where she's been attacked because her son's 'blood relatives' (of course they conveniently ignore that as his mother, she's a 'blood relative') wrote some letter attacking what she was doing. I've seen attempts to paint what she's doing as a cynical political play because people are going there to join her. Whatever she does and whatever she says, they'll find a weapon in there...



Violet...

[bemildred]

172. Hard to say.

It doesn't look like she is going to back off on it, and you are right that reasons will be found regardless. But it is a heck of a wedge issue, and you can bet they will be levering away at it, even as we speak. I intend to get some popcorn. It bears promise of being quite a show.
:popcorn:

[Misskittycat]

152. I posted my "queen of the progressives" message because I don't want

other progressives entirely defining what my position should be -- especially when I see that many lefties have a spotty and cherry-picked understanding of the incredibly complicated history of the Middle East, not only in the 20th Century but in ancient times as well.

[Violet_Crumble]

163. So what did you as a progressive disagree with in Tinoire's post?

And where exactly did Tinoire say she was defining what yr position should be?

When you've got some time on yr hands, this leftie would love to learn more about the incredibly complicated history of the Middle East...

Violet...

[Misskittycat]

173. A good place to start is a superb history book that was a

New York Times bestseller. It is "A Peace To End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" by David Fromkin. It's currently available new or used on Amazon.

The title is a play on the slogan used during the WWI to optimistically describe that war: "a war to end all wars." Obviously, it did no such thing. Also, the peace treaty ending WWI inadvertently sowed the seeds for continued conflict all over the Middle East and beyond.

Even for non-history buffs, this is a surprisingly interesting read.

I read Tinoire's posts 105 and 113 as defining a position. For example, post 105 reads in part: "...Anyone supporting injustice in Palestine, suports injustice everywhere and they're no friends of the antiwar movement. To hell with them...." And then in post 113: "...Nothing is splintering at all. The Progressive movement for justice all over the world is currently solidifying and telling people who need 1001 exceptions to justice to get out of the way. There are NO exceptions to justice be they in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan or Latin America...."

I don't support "injustice in "Palestine." I'm very pleased about the Gaza withdrawal today. But phrases like this are overbroad and simplistic, and suggest to me that the writer believes Palestinians are entirely or mostly innocent victims in this horrible mess. They are not. There is more than enough blame to go around.

Both sides have legitimate, overlapping claims -- over a period dating back to ancient times -- to this very tiny land mass. That's why the 1948 U.N. Partition Plan was a good compromise that should have been accepted by both sides, not just by the Israelis. Instead, the Arabs waged a 3-year war until they were defeated. Israel accepted the 1948 Partition Plan boundaries in 1948 and then again in 1951 when Israel was militarily victorious over the Arabs. From 1948 through 1967, there was a de facto Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, but this opportunity was entirely squandered by the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors. In June, 1967, six Arab nations again attacked Israel, vowing to destroy it entirely. Again they lost, and the tragic occupation (mishandled by both sides)ensued. Much of this pre-1967 part of the story is ignored now by lefty history revisionists.

I'm a lefty, I'm a Progressive, I marched against the Vietname war decades ago. I have a right to define my own understanding of the anti-war movement, and exactly what it encompasses and why. I don't have to "get out of the way" because I have a more nuanced view of the I/P mess.

I hope this respectfully clears up my position for you. The history of the Middle East is, as I said, "incredibly complicated" and I can't begin to address all of it here and now, and don't plan to address it any further because I have to get back to work.

[leftynyc]

184. Incredibly well said and

I'm in total agreement. Drivng away those who don't agree with someone's else's simplistic view of who is a progressive is very short-sighted.

[Behind the Aegis]

145. Very true.

It does dilute and other things.

[Andromeda]

146. I agree, P2BA...

It's another issue entirely.

[Malikshah]

153. Who are any of us to decide what she should talk about

Talk about gall.

She's fighting her fight. If she succeeds, she does. If she doesn't she doesn't.

She'll use the tools she thinks are right. She'll say what she wants.

This whole "dilute" thing and all the "some don't understand the complicated history" bullsh^& is just that-- BS meant to change the message etc.

Back off and let her be herself.

[meti57b]

154. she can talk about anything she wants but she gets no more support from me

including no more financial contribution. I will not support anyone who trashes Israel.

My thanks to the OP, for bringing this to our attention. I would not have otherwise known this is Cindy's position on Israel.

[DixieDem]

155. Soooo....

Saying that Israel needs to leave occupied territory is trashing Israel now?

Hmmmmm....

[Malikshah]

156. Wow-- a lot of things are brought to attention

That's the greatness that is mass media and instant information.....

[Violet_Crumble]

161. No way should we support someone who opposes the occupation!!

So obviously saying 'OUT OF IRAQ NOW!!!' is trashing the US. Wow, I learn something new every day here! ;)

Violet...

[meti57b]

164. getting back to the matter at hand .... she can say whatever she wants

and I can support or not support whomever I want. Her comments about Israel effectively end my active and financial support for her.

[Violet_Crumble]

165. I was talking about the matter at hand...

Which is why you'll find my reply was in direct response to what you said. Why would someone supporting the ending of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory be seen as 'trashing Israel', especially when the comment 'OUT OF IRAQ NOW!!!' isn't seen as trashing the US?

Violet...

[meti57b]

166. ...because I see it that way.

"Out of Iraq, now" is indeed a criticism of our current government and the people who voted for them, in addition to our ongoing effort and support for getting out of Iraq, now.

I am sorry that it confuses you that there are people who support Israel, who do not support the war against Iraq or a lot of other things our current government is doing. That is just the way it is.

If you feel I should tolerate anything anyone says about Israel, perhaps you should show me the way by tolerating what I have to say about Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

168. Why should I be tolerant of someone supporting the occupation?

I've got nothing but deep contempt for those people. Being opposed to people who want Israel to end the occupation of Palestinian territory isn't supporting Israel at all - it's supporting unending bloodshed and even more importantly it's supporting the eventual destruction of Israel at it's own hands....

I'm in no way confused at all, btw. Supporting Israel is supporting a fair and just two-state solution, not supporting everything Israel does without any thought at all about the consequences for Israel or the Palestinians...

Also, I didn't say that you should tolerate anything anyone says about Israel. If you think I did, perhaps you could show me where I did so? I won't hold my breath waiting...

Violet...

[meti57b]

169. good, ..... asphyxia is not a good thing.

[Violet_Crumble]

171. Yep, I would have asphyxiated waiting to see something I didn't say...

Viva le occupation, but only when it's Israel doing the occupying! ;)

Violet...

[newswolf56]

157. The real issue is Cindy's choice of words:

Another poster on this thread stated, "...during the period 1946-48 the US and the UK helped... a small group of unreconstructed European colonialists invade and take over the land of Palestine, evicting or killing the Arab people who'd lived and farmed there for a thousand years. And the US has kept that small group of colonialists in power ever since." The poster expresses very articulately the view of the pro-Jihadist faction within the American Left.

Thus when Cindy says, "You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism," it sounds as if she is calling for the total destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all its inhabitants -- getting "Israel (and all Israelis) out of Palestine" exactly as the Jihadists intend.

All the more so because "Palestine" means the whole region: not just the so-called Occupied Territories. Indeed, had Cindy said "Occupied Territories," I would have applauded her. But she didn't say "Occupied Territories," and in the context of the rest of her remarks, I don't think that was just a slip of the tongue. I also suspect others heard Cindy's remark the same way I did: a call for Israel's annihilation.

I cannot think of anything more divisive.

The Left is already fragmenting over the economic issues implicit in the skyrocketing cost of petroleum: note the vicious '60s-residual class antagonisms (bourgeois elite versus working folk and the poor) that have already resurfaced in threads on how to cope with the prices themselves and the rapidly worsening transportation and economic crises the prices are inflicting. Surely we don't need to inflame additional (and potentially even more bitter) divisions over the Israel question. Nor do we need the taint of hatemongering Cindy's remark may have inflicted on us all. It is one thing to demand U.S. withdrawal from Iraq and Israel's withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. It is quite another to demand the extinction of Israel: a demand guaranteed to alienate every Jewish person in America.

[Behind the Aegis]

159. Well stated!!! Bravo!

[Andromeda]

175. Excellent post!

You nailed it. :)

[tucoramirez2005]

176. I don't understand

"I also suspect others heard Cindy's remark the same way I did: a call for Israel's annihilation."

When you say it like that, the glass is half empty. If you say, "the restoration of Palestine to its 1946 borders", it has a much more positive sound to it.

It was their land (all of it), and to phrase returning it to them in terms of "annihilation" of anything is absurd.

[TomClash]

177. Wow

"Thus when Cindy says, 'You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism,' it sounds as if she is calling for the total destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all its inhabitants -- getting 'Israel (and all Israelis) out of Palestine' exactly as the Jihadists intend."

This is illogical. It's a long jump from what she said to calling for the "total destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all its inhabitants." You simply put words in her mouth to further your own aganda - to stop a complete Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line and keep a just peace on the shelf.

[not systems]

158. War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser

http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

IRAQ:
War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser
Emad Mekay

WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September 2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle East.

Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect Israel appears at odds with the public position of President George W. Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link between its war on the regime of former president Hussein and its concern for Israel's security.

...

”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.

”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.

...

[Jim Sagle]

160. He's lying. He's promoting a wedge issue to peel Jewish voters away from

the Dems. It doesn't appear to be working.

[pelsar]

174. did she say this?

My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel.....

If so.......well, shes then joined the "looney left" and has become irrelvant in the political world

[TomClash]

179. It's true

The Iraqi invasion has very little to do with Israel. Besides, anyone who has read the 9/11 Commission Report knows Zelikow is full of ****.

[methinks2]

180. Cindy is a grieving mother, she can speak about anything

she wants to speak about. In fact, this is America, anyone can speak about anything at any time. O8)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

185. Her grief is genuine and she can say whatever she wants..

Her grief is genuine and she can say whatever she wants....


I am just curious as how we "get Israel out of Palestine"

[Ian David]

189. Thanks to help from people in another thread, here is what I have composed

I've posted this message on a right-wing blog that has been very willing to accept my dissenting views.

Thank you to all that helped with these thoughts, ideas and words.

Message post below:

People have been lying about Cindy Sheehan's thoughts on Israel & Jews

http://usaexposure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=626


Cindy is an Arab sympathizer, just as she is a sympathizer for all human beings caught in the cross-hairs of the evil warmongers.

Cindy is a Jewish sympathizer.

Cindy is an Israeli sympathizer.

Cindy is an American sympathizer and most of all a sympathizer for our brave men and women who have been put in harms way by a theocratic corporate-fascist regime.

Cindy supports Israel, Jews, and their right to live in their own homeland in peace.

Any statement otherwise shows a total lack of knowledge of who Cindy is or what she stands for, and anybody attributing her with such hate has been manipulated and misled by the right-wing echo-chamber desperately trying to Swiftboat her.

They right-wing corporfascist death machine is desperate to malign Cindy Sheehan with distortions and outright lies.

Here is what Cindy has said, in her own words:

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
"Another "big deal" today was the lie that I had said that Casey died for Israel. I never said that, I never wrote that. I had supposedly said it in a letter that I wrote to Ted Koppel's producer in March. I wrote the letter because I was upset at the way Ted treated me when I appeared at a Nightline Town Hall meeting in January right after the inauguration. I felt that Ted had totally disrespected me. I wrote the letter to Ted Bettag and cc'd a copy to the person who gave me Ted's address. I believe he (the person who gave me the address) changed the email and sent it out to capitalize on my new found notoriety by promoting his own agenda. Enough about that"

the whole article is here:
http://cindysheehan.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/16/232347/610

Cindy's whole kos diary which contains her thoughts on this and other issues is here :
http://cindysheehan.dailykos.com/
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

They are desperate to deprive freedom-loving Americans of a powerful symbol that has been uniting people of conscience, and threatening to bring down the machinery of Bush's Rich Man's War.

The right-wing traitors lied about WMDs in Iraq, lied about Saddam's links to Al Qaeda, lied about our objectives in Iraq, and lied about supporting the troops. They rightly see Cindy as a threat to their plans of conquest and oppression both at home and abroad.

The Israel/Palestine thing is irrelevant to Cindy's stated objective.

Cindy's objective is the traitorous, un-American goal of bringing our sons and daughters safely home, and not letting them die for a war that was fought only for oil and ego, and has become un-winnable.

How do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a lie? In a war that can not be won due to the gross incompetence or willful negligence of a pResident who either failed to plan or chose not to plan a strategy for success?

I don't think she was "choosing sides", just using words in making a point -- throughout this whole thing NO ONE, so far, has used the other 'I' word - IMPEACHMENT.

Part of the problem is that the right wing has glommed onto the fact that the Crawford Peace House has been aiding her efforts, and the CPH has been, at times, outspoken about Palestinian rights and has emphasized the damage done to Iraqis during the current invasion and occupation.

So, in the minds of the right, this is guilt by association. For that reason, I would simply emphasize that her own remarks have been directed at Bush's reasons for this war. She has continued to say so all along. Her remarks should form the basis of any counter-argument. When the subject comes up, the question should be asked--what has Cindy Sheehan said to make one believe that she hates Israel?

The difficulty these days is that the right wing conceives of any social or moral support for ordinary Iraqis as supporting the enemy.

There's not much that can be done to counter that claim, except to say that our war in Iraq caused many innocents to be caught up in that violence, and that lack of recognition (or denial) of that fact doesn't improve America's image in the world, nor does it help bring about a quick end to the suffering.

And when Rush Limbaugh is broadcast worldwide on our state-sponsored Armed Forces Radio Network, and he calls the torture of civilians "harmless fraternity pranks" and sells "Club Gitmo" t-shirts to ridicule our suffering, that certainly does nothing to Win The Hearts and Minds of the Muslim World.

And neither does our chickenhawk deserter of a pResident saying, "Bring it on."

The war is a lie, and Cindy Sheehan is the truth, and if you don't understand that, then you can go suck it.

Posted on USAexposure.com
http://usaexposure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=626

[davidinalameda]

190. I don't know if she should have or shouldn't have

but people on here have strong opinions and ALL those opinions should be respected

For gods' sake people, act like the adults you are

Cindy's an adult as well--her son was killed in a war that we have yet to be told exactly why we're in

she's reacting to what she has heard from the Bushies and the MSM

I wouldn't doubt if the Sharon government had a hand in pushing Bush to invade--I don't know the exact timeline of how long he's been in power as compared to the invasion

What I do know is that the Sharon government is dangerous to peace efforts in the Middle East--I'm afraid of what his government may push Bush to do in order to appease the hard-liners on the issue of Israeli security

[eyl]

191. You mean the Sharon government

that just pulled out of Gaza?

[davidinalameda]

192. they pulled out

under intense international pressure

but let's not kid ourselves--the Sharon government is only in power right now because of Labour support

the Likud hardliners and the Orthodox parties don't want any part of this

and I'm still waiting to see what will happen if Iran goes ahead with it's nuclear plans

I'm predicting all out war if that happens

[eyl]

193. Yeah right

international pressure is well past its peak, at the moment