Jesse Jackson: After pullout, onus for next step on PA

[barb162]

By Shmuel Rosner, Haaretz Correspondent

"In a surprising move, prominent African-American leader Reverend Jesse Jackson on Thursday congratulated Israel on the completion of the disengagement, and said that the onus was now on the Palestinians to take reciprocal steps.

Jackson called Israel's ambassador in Washington, Daniel Ayalon, and asked him to pass on his congratulations to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Jackson, one of the most vehement supporters of the Palestinians in American political circles, said that following the implementation of the withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements, "the moral burden now substantially shifts to the Palestinians."

"Sharon made a bold and painful step toward a long-term solution. He deserves a partnership that is just as bold and committed," said Jackson."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/617312.html

[Colorado Blue]

1. Good. I am glad to hear this, but then I see another post

in this forum declaring that the militants are now threatening to renew attacks on Israelis.

Despair.

[barb162]

2. It is very disturbing to read

the speechifying about these new threats of attacks. As Jackson said "...the moral burden now substantially shifts to the Palestinians." And what can Abbas do to stop these threats.

[Colorado Blue]

3. Of course a primary concern is that he lacks the power to

stop them - both militarily and at the ballot box. Hamas picked up something like 1/3 of the seats in the recent election, and from what I understand the militants are well funded.

That's upsetting in a number of ways - not the least of which is the dire need of the Palestinian people to enjoy a more vigorous economy. This won't happen in a war zone!

Still, we must hope and pray for the best.

[Brightmore]

4. And the fact that the PA refuses to disarm Hamas & Islamic Jihad

doesn't help matters.

[barb162]

6. They will have to disarm if they want to get their economy going

won't they.

And welcome to DU, Brightmore!

[Brightmore]

7. Thanks for the welcome barb162

:)

[Colorado Blue]

8. True, and allow me to welcome you as well.

It is unclear to me whether the Palestinian Authority CAN'T disarm the militants, or won't.

Ideas?

[barb162]

12. Seems like a "won't" to me

because I don't remember anyone in authority ever calling for a throwing down of arms (without winking) and then following it up with forced removal. At least in the last twenty years or so.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Seems like yr wrong...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x95976

Anyone who tries to claim that Abbas hasn't made attempts to rein in groups like Hamas are only doing so because they ignore any attempts that are made...

Violet...

[eyl]

18. The problem is

that for the most part, Abbas' forces have acted against Hamas only in a "local"* fashion. That is, they've acted to prevent attacks from certain places, or at certain times; but they've made almost no attempt to attack Hamas itself (or at least its terrorist infrastructure, which is what allows it to continue carrying out attacks).


*Sorry, not sure of an exact suitable English term

[barb162]

20. What's your take on whether Abbas even has the forces or

strength, will, funds, etc.,to even try to get after Hamas and other groups. Or if he really tried, would it cause a civil war among Palestinians?

[eyl]

22. He certainly has the numbers

and AFAIR Israel has agreed they (re)carry arms. He does not however seem to have the will to do so.

As for civil war - yes, it's a risk (and probably at least part of the reason he refuses to confront them), but it's one he'll have to take sooner or later. No state which has aspirations of calling itself "functional" can allow independent armed groups running around, making policy at their whim. This doesn't only apply to policy against Israel, BTW - those armed groups have turned their guns against Palestinians, as well, to enforce their will.

Israel (and the Yishuv) faced the same choice in the late 40's, culminating in the Altalena affair. It chose to face down the dissidents, even if it required force. The Palestinians will have to do the same.

[barb162]

29. Sounds good to me.

Israel would never have be going after the Palestinian militants / terrorists if Abbas were doing his job in the first place.

"No state which has aspirations of calling itself "functional" can allow independent armed groups running around, making policy at their whim."

[Violet_Crumble]

33. When did Israel agree that they could carry arms?

I'm not saying things might not have changed, but the last thing I remember seeing on that sort of thing was a few months back where Israel was refusing to allow them to carry arms....

When it comes to the likelihood of civil war (I'd think it'd be a very real fear), and if the PA got its arse kicked from here to tomorrow, I'd be thinking that that sort of outcome would be the worst thing possible for Israel as well as the Palestinian people. I think Israel has to do more to let Abbas be in a position where he's got the capability and the backing of the population to do this, and things like expanding settlements in the West Bank and destroying homes there isn't exactly the sort of help Abbas would need....

Violet...

[eyl]

35. ISTR

an agreement was reached sortly after we discussed the article you're referring to.

And bluntly; at least as far as Israel is concerned, a Hamas victory might not be the worst-case scenario (don't get me wrong, it obviously would be worse than a victory by the moderates) - at least then, we'd have a clear enemy we could act against.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Is there a problem with that?

Abbas' forces have acted against Hamas only in a "local"* fashion. That is, they've acted to prevent attacks from certain places, or at certain times

Not sure if 'pinpoint' may have been the sort of term you were looking for there, but I'm not really understanding why acting to prevent attacks from certain places or at certain times isn't a good thing. Wouldn't they be acting on intelligence they receive? They got their arses kicked doing it, which makes me wonder how much more effective any attempt to attack the infrastructure of Hamas would be. What I'm not seeing is the motivation for Abbas to not want these groups to be disarmed. I thought there was a mutual dislike between Hamas and Fatah...


Violet...

A belated thought - I remember a thread a while back about the PA offering to give jobs to militants who handed in their weapons. I thought it was an interesting and non-violent way to start disarming militants, but wasn't surprised at all that there were a number of posters who voiced outrage at it - I'm assuming out of a belief that the PA should be killing any militant it finds rather than getting them to hand in weapons and be given jobs. If I could search, I'd go looking for the thread to refresh my memory...

[eyl]

26. It's a good thing

but it's a totally short-term response. And it does nothing to prevent attacks (barring rocket/mortar fire) inside Israel, even when they originate from Palestinian-controlled territory.

As for Abbas' motivation; I can think of several reasons, depending on how cynical/paranoid I want to be.
1) Maybe, he'd like Hamas to be dismantled, but just can't muster the guts to take the risks - and the loss of popularity - doing so entails.
2) Maybe he's setting out a situation where Palestinians can attack Israel to relieve their frustration against the PA - without the PA taking the blame
3) Or maybe he's in favor of attaks against Israel, and like Arafat before him, is using Hamas to maintain plausible deniabilty

Realistically, I think it's 1, maybe with a smidgeon of 2.

As for the article you mentioned; I think I remember it. One of the causes of outrage was that, IIRC, the criteria to determine their rank included how many attacks they had carried out.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Long-term response....

Generally I see Israel's attempts to stop attacks as being short-term as well, and I'm not sure what sort of action a long-term response would entail and what risks it would pose to the civilian population. Because if it posed big risks to the civilian population, I don't think it's a matter of mustering the guts - it's more like the same exact reasons why the IDF treat Israeli extremists attacking them much more gently than they treat Palestinians...

Yes, that was one of the reasons for outrage in that thread, but definately not the main or only one. btw, if I were a militant turning up, I would have done some creative accounting and really upped the figures to make sure I scored a real cushy job :)

Violet...

[eyl]

36. In part, yes

but steps like the systematic assassination or arrest of Hamas leaders, as well as shutting down their bomb-making facilities, did have a long-term (or at least medium-term) effect; they caused an actual (and significant) decline in the ability of Hamas to carry out further attacks.

In the Palestinians' case, the response could take the form of arrests, for example, or confiscatins of materiel.

[Lithos]

34. I think 1 myself

I think Arafat and the Tunisian mafia have created a situation where Abbas' position is inherently weak. Arafat had a lot of personal "good-will" thru his use of baksheesh and patronage which I don't think Abbas has at this moment.

L-

[eyl]

37. True

And attempts to stop corruption would make it more so. But OTOH Arafat also deliberately weakened his own forces (or at least their ability to act against terrorism) by splitting them up so much, a situation Abbas is supposed to be rectifying.

[barb162]

19. sems like I'm right

"What everyone knows but doesn't like to admit is that the Palestinian Authority and its leader, Mahmoud Abbas, have, once and for all, given in to the gunmen. Abbas pledged to establish "one authority, one law, and one gun." He has failed on all counts. When radicals threatened to break the cease-fire several weeks ago, he caved, freeing nine of their jailed gunmen. He caved again when the radicals threatened to kill Fatah supporters unless he released another terrorist who had been firing rockets in Gaza. When Israel gave the Palestinian Authority the names of militants involved in a February suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv nightclub, he caved yet again, arresting several, then releasing them. Instead of living up to his promise to keep tabs on a "Most Wanted" list of 495 terrorists, he tried to slip many of them in as employees of the Palestinian security forces, to legitimize and launder their possessions of arms so they could attack again. When Israel provided the names of weapon smugglers, Abbas's security chiefs tipped them off that the Israelis were on their trail.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/050815/15edit.htm

Abbas appears to be doing what Arafat did, that is, arrest them for the cameras, release them out the back door five minutes later, arrest them, release them, arrest them, release them....
(Though the militants may have grown so large in number and popularity, Abbas may effectively have his hands tied these days by his own people)

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Uh, I posted a link that shows yr wrong...

Try reading it. It might really help...

Violet...

[barb162]

21. Here's another comment supporting my point

"Abbas has thus far avoided any direct confrontation with Hamas, saying it would be tantamount to civil war. However, Israeli media said Abbas had promised, in a meeting Saturday with Israeli lawmaker Ephraim Sneh, to demand that Hamas disarm if it wants to join the Palestinian government.

Sneh is a leader of the Labor Party, which is part of Sharon's governing coalition."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hamas28aug28,1,2681561.story?coll=la-headlines-world

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Yr not making any sort of point...

Again, I posted a link to a thread talking about a direct confrontation with Hamas. What exactly constitutes direct confrontation if not that?

Hamas under attack from Abbas and Israeli forces

Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic group, was under fire on two fronts on Friday as Israel renewed targeted missile strikes against its militants and the Palestinian government pursued a crackdown in Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip.

The forces of Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority appeared to have come off worse in their first concerted operation against Hamas gunmen since the president came to office in January.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/7cf631ac-f583-11d9-8ffc-00000e2511c8.html

Violet...

[barb162]

27. Is that story supposed to be a joke?

"...first concerted operation against Hamas gunmen since the president came to office in January." The first (and probably only) confrontation from Jan./05 through 8/05. Wouldn't you think Abbas would have at least weekly or daily raids on these militants? That is, if he meant business about terrorism.

"Abbas pledged to establish "one authority, one law, and one gun." He has failed on all counts." (US News & World Report)

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Yeah, barb, it was a fake article...

Don't you be worrying yrself. It never happened. It was all made up, just the same as anything that even hints at putting the Palestinians in a slightly positive light. I think it may have been a conspiracy between evil al-jazeera and al-Guardian. Just remember that if you read anything that doesn't fit into yr worldview, it must be a joke and it never happened! ;)

Violet...

[barb162]

39. A big reminder of how Abbas is NOT serious

about stopping the terrorists. I will remember that ONE raid in 8 months. ONE, UNO And since when did something funny, as a joke, become fake? Twisting intent and words?

[barb162]

28. The point was made

[Violet_Crumble]

31. I'll spell it out real slowly one last time...

You posted something that said Abbas had refused to engage in any direct confrontation. I posted a link to an article posted here that showed otherwise, and you've discarded as a joke. There was definately a point made here, but it's probably not the one yr seeing...

Violet...

[barb162]

38. My point is valid; one raid in 8 months...is a joke. ONE?? Doesn't

appear that Abbas is very serious about dealing with his militants, does it?

[barb162]

40. Spell it out slowly Abbas aint serious noway nohow about

stopping terrorism as one raid in 8 months demonstrates.

[barb162]

5. Investment will be problematic at best

and most likely non-existent if the militants don't lay down the weapons

[Alex88]

9. Jesse Jackson only cares about Jesse Jackson.

He's proven that many times.

When a thief returns one dollar of the thousand dollars he stole from you, it's still his turn to return the rest of it and do so unconditionally.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

11. Ha

Nor will the Palestinians ever leave their HOMELAND. And you can piss and moan all you want about those bad, bad a-rabs and musleems...

[barb162]

13. Hey Andromeda, well stated. n/t

[Andromeda]

17. Thanks, Barb...

:hi:

[tucoramirez2005]

15. Nothing will make them leave their homeland?

A bunch of them just did, and more will in time.

They've left Sinai, Gaza, and part of the West Bank. They can't win this war of attrition with Palestinians; there is no solution. Few Jewish people around the world see this area as a destination with any future anymore.

[bluesoul]

16. ...

It's a question what the person actually ment by "homeland" (the complete territory including Gaza, WB and the rest of it or only what is internationally recognized as Israel under the UN partition).

In other news, according to latest polls, the majority of Israelis support further (and complete) evacuation of settlers from the territories. So much for some over here being more pope-like then the Pope :eyes: