Prominent 911 "Conspiracy Theorists"

[Tim Howells]

Selections from Patriots Question 9/11

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).

Quote: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible.…"

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart).

Quote: "I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate,"

Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force – Former Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. Commercial pilot for Pan Am and United Airlines for 35 years, flying 707, 720, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 ’s. Had previously flown the actual two United Airlines airplanes that were hijacked on 9/11 (Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC).

Quoted: "'The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S. plain and simple' ... Wittenberg convincingly argued there was absolutely no possibility that Flight 77 could have 'descended 7,000 feet in two minutes, all the while performing a steep 270 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall without touching the lawn.' ... For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible - there is not one chance in a thousand," said Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727's to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737's through 767's it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying."

Andreas von Buelow, PhD – Former State Secretary of the Federal Ministry of Defense of West Germany. Former Minister of Research and Technology. Member of Bundestag (Parliament) 1969 - 1994.

Quote: "The official story is so inadequate and far-fetched that there must be another one."

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/VonBuelow">Quote: "The planning of the attacks was technically and organizationally a master achievement. To hijack four huge airplanes within a few minutes and within one hour, to drive them into their targets, with complicated flight maneuvers! This is unthinkable, without years-long support from secret apparatuses of the state and industry."

Horst Ehmke, PhD – Former Minister of Justice (West Germany). Former Minister for Research and Technology. Cabinet Member under Chancellors Kurt Kiesinger and Willy Brandt 1966 - 1974. Professor of Law, University of Freiburg

Quote: "Terrorists could not have carried out such an operation with four hijacked planes without the support of a secret service."

Ernst Welteke – Former President of Deutsche Bundesbank (German Federal Bank) 1999 - 2004. German politician and political economist. Member of the Hessian State Parliament, 1974 - 1995.

Quoted: "Ernst Welteke, president of the Bundesbank, said financial investigators had found strong indications of suspicious dealings in gold and oil, as well as unusual movements in airline and insurance shares, in the days before the September 11 attacks in the United States. ...'There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge.'"

25 American National Security professionals in an http://www.pogo.org/m/hsp/hsp-911commission-040913.pdf">open letter to Congress:
"When calling for accountability {regarding the attacks of September 11}, we are referring not to quasi-innocent mistakes caused by 'lack of imagination' or brought about by ordinary 'human error'. Rather, we refer to intentional actions or inaction by individuals responsible for our national security, actions or inaction dictated by motives other than the security of the people of the United States."

1. Castello, Edward J. Jr., Former Special Agent, FBI
2. Cole, John M., Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist, FBI
3. Conrad, David "Mark", Retired Agent in Charge, Internal Affairs, U.S. Customs
4. Dew, Rosemary N., Former Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism &
Counterintelligence, FBI
5. Dzakovic, Bogdan, Former Red Team Leader, FAA
6. Edmonds, Sibel D., Former Language Specialist, FBI
7. Elson, Steve, Retired Navy Seal & Former Special Agent, FAA & US Navy
8. Forbes, David, Aviation, Logistics and Govt. Security Analysts, BoydForbes, Inc.,
9. Goodman, Melvin A., Retired Senior Analyst/ Division Manager & senior fellow at the
Center for International Policy, CIA
10. Graf, Mark, Former Security Supervisor, Planner, & Derivative Classifier,
Department of Energy
11. Graham, Gilbert M., Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence, FBI
12. Kleiman, Diane, Former Special Agent, US Customs
13. Kwiatkowski, Lt Col Karen U., Veteran Policy Analyst, USAF-DoD
14. Larkin, Lynne A., Former Operation Officer, CIA
15. MacMichael, David, Former Senior Estimates Officer, CIA
16. McGovern, Raymond L., Veteran Analyst, CIA
17. Pahle, Theodore J. Senior Intelligence Officer (Ret), Defense Intelligence Agency,
Office of Naval Intelligence, and U.S. Army Intelligence
18. Sarshar, Behrooz, Retired Language Specialist, FBI
19. Sullivan, Brian F., Retired Special Agent & Risk Management Specialist, FAA
20. Tortorich, Larry J., Retired US Naval Officer, US Navy & Dept. of Homeland
Security/TSA
21. Turner, Jane A., Retired Special Agent, FBI
22. Vincent, John B., Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI
23. Whitehurst, Dr. Fred, Retired Supervisory Special Agent/Laboratory Forensic
Examiner, FBI
24. Wright, Col. Ann, Retired Reserve Colonel & Former US Diplomat, US Army,
25. Zipoli, Matthew J., Special Response Team (SRT) Officer, DOE

And there are literally hundreds more at The Link

[JackRiddler]

1. Signatories to the 9/11 Truth Statement

- The 3 leading third-party candidates for president in 2004: Nader, Cobb, Badnarik.

- 49 members of Sept. 11 families.

- Writers, academics, officials, artists from all walks of life and poltiical perspectives (and who have differing perspectives on what they think may have happened):
http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

- Some will be a target for ridicule by the usual suspects on this thread, but only by cherrypicking. Follow the link and read all names for yourself.

Here are the insane meaures they demanded:

An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry.

Here are the crazy questions they asked:

Why were standard operating procedures for dealing with hijacked airliners not followed that day?
Why were the extensive missile batteries and air defenses reportedly deployed around the Pentagon not activated during the attack?
Why did the Secret Service allow Bush to complete his elementary school visit, apparently unconcerned about his safety or that of the schoolchildren?
Why hasn't a single person been fired, penalized, or reprimanded for the gross incompetence we witnessed that day?
Why haven't authorities in the U.S. and abroad published the results of multiple investigations into trading that strongly suggested foreknowledge of specific details of the 9/11 attacks, resulting in tens of millions of dollars of traceable gains?
Why has Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI translator who claims to have knowledge of advance warnings, been publicly silenced with a gag order requested by Attorney General Ashcroft and granted by a Bush-appointed judge?
How could Flight 77, which reportedly hit the Pentagon, have flown back towards Washington D.C. for 40 minutes without being detected by the FAA's radar or the even superior radar possessed by the US military?
How were the FBI and CIA able to release the names and photos of the alleged hijackers within hours, as well as to visit houses, restaurants, and flight schools they were known to frequent?
What happened to the over 20 documented warnings given our government by 14 foreign intelligence agencies or heads of state?
Why did the Bush administration cover up the fact that the head of the Pakistani intelligence agency was in Washington the week of 9/11 and reportedly had $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, considered the ringleader of the hijackers?
Why did the 911 Commission fail to address most of the questions posed by the families of the victims, in addition to almost all of the questions posed here?
Why was Philip Zelikow chosen to be the Executive Director of the ostensibly independent 911 Commission although he had co-authored a book with Condoleezza Rice?

http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

August 2004!

[Taxloss]

2. Dupe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=132352

And as I said in that discussion back then, if none of those people are "OCTers", then I'm not an OCTer.

[Tim Howells]

3. What about the specific quotes and articles ...

... included in the OP? Would you agree that the
official story re the alleged hijackings is "bullshit"?
Would you agree that there were massive and expertly
executed financial manipulations associated with 911
that netted many millions of dollars, and which
required detailed foreknowlege? Do you agree
that our government does not want us to know who
was behind 911?

Tim Howells

[Anarcho-Socialist]

4. The majority of those people

have not gone on to say that they think it's an "inside job."

Although the use of these people for 9/11 Truthiness propaganda purposes has been expertly done. It is meant to convey that these people are L/MIHOP when in fact most of them are not and simply asked serious questions at one time or other.

[Tim Howells]

5. evade, twist, squirm ... nice post!

address the original post please. By the way, Alan Miller's fine
website is perfectly clear. Links to all original docs are provided.
Everybody represented there at a minimum has called for a new
and independent investigation of September 11. As the OP makes
clear, many of the most highly qualified commentators are MIHOP.

How people can dedicate themselves to trying to cover up the
truth about 911 is beyond my comprehension.

Timm Howells

[Tim Howells]

43. ... silence ... why am I not surprised?

[sodenoue]

11. yes. yes.

YES!

Cui Bono? Simple...

[Taxloss]

12. There's a huge distance between recognising that the 9/11 Commission was

woefully inadequate, a cover-up indeed, and believing that 9/11 was an inside job.

I think 9/11 needs much more thorough independent investigation. I don't think it was an inside job. Many of those on the "Patriots Question" list are not inside jobbers. Many of them go no further in their thinking on 9/11 than I do - that the investigation was incredibly flawed and left many unanswered questions. Like me, however, they do not agree that it was an inside job.

But I think that they're all mixed up together in that big list in order to deliberately confuse the two positions and to bulk up the inside job ranks. It's PR, folks.

[ima_sinnic]

18. if not an "inside job," what is bushco's interest in keeping a lid on it?

you make it sound like the choices are: (1) OCT, or (2) bush himself personally rigged the building with explosives while cheney was in direct communication w/hijackers, directing their actions. does the term "inside job" include the possibility that bushco simply messed things up on purpose to achieve a desired effect? the same way they did with New Orleans? i.e., they knew "something" was up yet did ZERO to impede it, in fact quite likely "arranged things" in some way to ensure that nobody else would, either, just by distraction and red-herring unnecessary other duties for people, etc.?

One thing I feel 100% certain of is that they are desperate to cover up their own ineptitude, just as they have been with Katrina.

[Taxloss]

21. That's not a dichotomy I was attempting to set up.

I would say for a start that the cover-up was greatly aided by the national - indeed global - atmosphere immediately following 9/11. A shocked and traumatised America was in no mood to examine its own failings and the errors of its government. From the perspective of a Briton, it was clear that the Bush administration was getting a pass even from more liberals. So I don't think there was very much covering-up to be done. Bush just had to sit tight and stave off calls for an investigation when they arose, considerably later. When an investigation of some sort became unavoidable, they could hobble it by denying it access to key information and evidence, and restricting parts of its ambit, under the guise of national security.

All of which they proceeded to do. So we end up with the 9/11 commission.

What they were trying to cover up was their own massive ineptitude, but more importantly the fact that this total failure cascaded down from the very highest - the president and the vice president. This applies to the months preceding 9/11, when the attack might have been averted, and to actions on the day itself. Bush fills the period 20.1.01 to 10.9.01 like someone playing a president on telelvision, or doing the job like a hobby he took up in an access of enthusiasm and is losing interest in. Throughout his entire life, he's been placed in positions far beyond his natural abilities thanks to his father's connections, and then guided through those roles (or bailed out when they went sour) by his father's cronies. This gilded ascent meant that he's assembled an ugly cast of know-nothing hangers-on in that time, not carrying poppy's stamp of approval, and it's those folks he starts to reward once he reaches the White House. Sadly he rewards them with jobs that require competence, and there's already tension between this new crowd and his dad's chums.

The fallibility is greatest at the top. That's what they had to cover up.

The difference between 9/11 and New Orleans was that the public reaction after New Orleans was one of anger, and someone's-got-to-pay directed at the government, not the Ay-rabs. After 9/11 every echelon of the American government got the unreserved support of at least 85% of the American public. So they were able to wing through, largely unscathed.

[MervinFerd]

26. Can you really not think of 100 things?

An investigation of a catastrophe -always- embarrasses the guys at the controls. Even if they were diligent and competent.

As TaxLoss so aptly describes it, Bush was -not- diligent and competent. And neither were the people around him. Very probably, 911 should never have happened--a mildly competent administration would have caught the bastards.

So, there were a --whole lot-- of reasons for blocking investigations. Most of those do not involving planting thermite in WTC7 or Dustification Beams from Space.

[Grateful for Hope]

6. kick! n/t

[wildbilln864]

7. and another...

kick!
:hi:

[Tim Howells]

8. And here's another one

Catherine Austin Fitts – Assistant Secretary of Housing under George H.W. Bush. Former Managing Director of Wall Street investment bank, Dillon, Read & Co

Quote (Audio): Regarding 9/11 "The official story could not possibly have happened... It’s not possible. It’s not operationally feasible... The Commission was a whitewash." (About 45 minutes into the file.)

Quote: "The first category of people who benefited were those who are guilty and complicit in designing, implementing and financing the 9-11 operation. On such a sophisticated and successful covert operation, the people responsible would have had budgets and financing and would have organized the operation to maximize their political and financial benefits."

Fitts is an investment banker/government official who has long worked at the interface of big money and big government. Typical "conspiracy theorist" I guess ...

[greyl]

9. Wouldn't evidence and a coherent theory be better than

celebrity endorsements? You go with what you have, I guess.

[Tim Howells]

10. This has been covered, but OK ...

... in the first place the rhetorical trick of trying to trivialize
these guys as "celebrities" won't fly. All of those quoted are
very distinguished experts with loads of relevant knowledge and
experience.

Now re the "coherent theory" thing. I agree with Col. Ronald D. Ray
(Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense in the Reagan Administration).
September 11 was a classic false-flag operation in the tradition of
Gladio, Northwoods, the Lavon Affair, the attack on the USS Liberty
and so on and on. You can refer to the interview with Col. Ray
referenced in the OP. For my own take see:

How our governments use terrorism to control us ... (Or try this link instead)
September 11 - Islamic Jihad or another Northwoods?

It's difficult at this point to be very specific about how it all
went down, lacking as we do police and subpoena power. However,
these links should put you pretty well into the picture IMO.

Tim Howells

[greyl]

15. If it's not an appeal to celebrity, it must be an appeal to authority.

If it's an appeal to authority, then your group of authorities doesn't represent the consensus of relevant authorities, nor do they present anything close to a coherent theory based on evidence.

[Tim Howells]

17. What's the problem with the theory?

The short version of the theory is that September 11 was a
false-flag op, probably involving a few agents provocateur,
a few genuine Islamists, and several highly placed US intelligence
operatives and political opportunists. As Col. Ronald Ray points
out, this kind of thing has been pulled off repeatedly in our
recent history. For my own take and more details follow the
pointers already provided:

How our governments use terrorism to control us
September 11 - Islamic Jihad or another Northwoods?

The first article puts 911 in the context on ongoing campaigns
of phony terrorism sponsored by the US government. The second
provides more details regarding how such an operation was in
all likelihood unleashed on September 11 2001.

If you do not find this plausible and "coherent" please explain.
Put up or shut up.

Tim Howells

[greyl]

22. The theory is in the neighborhood of fantasy without evidence to

support it. Knowing that it's possible for governments to fake a terrorist attack doesn't lead me to believe that every terrorist attack is faked by the government. That would be lousy logic, wouldn't it?
Knowing that real terrorist attacks have happened, that warnings of terrorist attacks are on the record, and that there are confession videos made by the hijackers are just a few of the reasons why the basic official story provides a coherent theory supported by evidence.

[Tim Howells]

23. You have your eyes closed to the evidence.

I have given you pointers repeatedly, and you choose simply not to respond.

Re the confession videos. In the context of a standard false-flag,
operation like Gladio, or the Aldo Moro assassination, it works like
this; Radical groups are infiltrated, and the agents sent in then
are positioned to lead the phony operations. They take along with
them weak-minded "compatriots" in the movement, who serve as patsies.
Care is taken to cook up manifestos along the lines of the confession
videos intended to be discovered after the atrocities are committed.

Is there any evidence that this is the case re 911? Yes!

"A former high-level intelligence official told me, 'Whatever trail was left was left deliberately—for the F.B.I. to chase.'"

The New Yorker
WHAT WENT WRONG
The C.I.A. and the failure of American intelligence.
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Issue of 2001-10-08
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/011008fa_FACT?011008fa_FACT

Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained at U.S. Bases
The Pentagon has turned over military records on five men to the FBI
September 15, 2001
By George Wehrfritz, Catharine Skipp and John Barry
NEWSWEEK

Sept. 15 — U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in Tuesday’s terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s.
THREE OF THE alleged hijackers listed their address on drivers licenses and car registrations as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla.—known as the “Cradle of U.S. Navy Aviation,” according to a high-ranking U.S. Navy source.
Another of the alleged hijackers may have been trained in strategy and tactics at the Air War College in Montgomery, Ala., said another high-ranking Pentagon official. The fifth man may have received language instruction at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Both were former Saudi Air Force pilots who had come to the United States, according to the Pentagon source.

... MORE AT LINK ...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/alleged_hijackers_may_trained_us_bases.html

According to several mainstream accounts, four of the hijackers trained at
the Pensacola Naval Air Base, and three of them gave the base as their
address on their drivers licenses.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=otherHijackers

In the link already given, I discuss the evidence indicating that
Mohamed Atta was deliberately leaving a false trail during his time
in the United States.

http://physics911.ca/org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18

And of course lets not forget the evidence surrounding the way
in which the hijackers received their visas to enter the US
(sponsored by the CIA).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x138085

And lets lot forget that the anthrax attacks were definitely
an inside job according to authoritative sources close to the
investigation, including phony notes intended to implicate
"Arab terrorists".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=137603&mesg_id=137603

Tim Howells

[Tim Howells]

34. Hey, that was a pretty good post!

I think that tied the separate threads together in a
good way. Maybe I should repost this on its own
thread at some point.

Tim Howells

[vincent_vega_lives]

13. I agree this is pretty disturbing

and these people should have their commissions revoked for stupidity.

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. 34-year Air Force career.

Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Director U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project. 30-year Army career.

Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force – Former Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. Commercial pilot for Pan Am and United Airlines for 35 years, flying 707, 720, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 ’s. Had previously flown the actual two United Airlines airplanes that were hijacked on 9/11 (Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC).

Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force veteran.

Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army – Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer

Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Army Intelligence officer. Former inspector and interpreter for the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty team.

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).

[Tim Howells]

16. Well, ummmm ....

Looks like reason and logic are out of the question, but I'll
always give it one more try. Let's narrow it down to Russ Wittenberg
and Ernst Welteke. They were the most specific in their charges.
Both were also very concise, so I'll repost their comments here.

Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force – Former Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. Commercial pilot for Pan Am and United Airlines for 35 years, flying 707, 720, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 ’s. Had previously flown the actual two United Airlines airplanes that were hijacked on 9/11 (Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC).

Quoted: "'The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S. plain and simple' ... Wittenberg convincingly argued there was absolutely no possibility that Flight 77 could have 'descended 7,000 feet in two minutes, all the while performing a steep 270 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall without touching the lawn.' ... For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible - there is not one chance in a thousand," said Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727's to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737's through 767's it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying."

Ernst Welteke – Former President of Deutsche Bundesbank (German Federal Bank) 1999 - 2004. German politician and political economist. Member of the Hessian State Parliament, 1974 - 1995.

Quoted: "Ernst Welteke, president of the Bundesbank, said financial investigators had found strong indications of suspicious dealings in gold and oil, as well as unusual movements in airline and insurance shares, in the days before the September 11 attacks in the United States. ...' There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge.'"

Now is there anything there that you don't understand or that you would differ with? Now try to be calm, take a deep breath ... and before you answer, Vince, I want you to know that my philosophy is that once a man admits that he is wrong, that he is immediately forgiven for all wrongdoings. Have you ever heard that?

Tim Howells

[vincent_vega_lives]

20. Sure Tim

but forgive me if I don't take a deep breath, the odor in this thread is a little ripe.

there was absolutely no possibility that Flight 77 could have 'descended 7,000 feet in two minutesall the while performing a steep 270 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall without touching the lawn.

I take that to mean Capt. Wittenberg doesn't think that a relatively new pilot trained on a simulator could've flown Flt 77 into the Pentagon that day. In fact plenty of armature pilots have done the same maneuver in simulators since. Sounds like Ego plays a large part in his opinion.

These folks disagree:

Impossible"? "No pilot will claim...?" Well, we did not have any difficulty finding pilots who disagreed. Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, in Jupiter, Florida, told The New American, "It's not that difficult, and certainly not impossible," noting that it's much easier to crash intentionally into a target than to make a controlled landing. "If you're doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you'd just keep the nose down and push like the devil," says Capt. Bull, who flew 727s, 747s, 757s, and 767s for many years, internationally and domestically, including into the Washington, D.C., airports.

Lamp posts taken out by Flight 77 were too far apart to have been done by a missile or a fighter jet, say witnesses and experts, including General Benton K. Partin.
George Williams of Waxhaw, North Carolina, piloted 707s, 727s, DC-10s, and 747s for Northwest Airlines for 38 years. "I don't see any merit to those arguments whatsoever," Capt. Williams told us. "The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I'd say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."

As for the suspicious investments, others here have posted good analysis of how some is pure coincidence and much of the rest is just inaccurate. but I have less interest in that aspect of 9-11 as I prefer to keep to the most obviously uneducated claims. Which is why some of the claims from these highly qualified folks is highly disturbing. Most have done little or no actual research and some are simply mentally touched (Re; Dr Judy Wood, I've seen the interview).

[Tim Howells]

24. problems with sources ...

Your sources were sought out by a writer for a right-wing magazine,
(I guess we can't link to the "American Spectator" here). I'm not
surprised of course that he was able to find pilots to back up the
official story. Either they could just tend to accept the official
story because they really have not thought about it, or they could
be in the "expert witness" category who can always be bought.

In this case the problem seems to be the former. None of these guys
even address the issues that Capt. Wittenberg raised. The rapid
spiral descent, expertly executed - a 270 degree turn smoothly
and perfectly executed to hit the wall of the pentagon while
descending 7000 feet in two minutes.

Anyone who says, as you quote, "you'd just keep the nose down and push
like the devil," simply has no idea what he is talking about.

Here is another quote from someone who DOES know what they are talking
about:

Washington air traffic controller Danielle O'Brien, who viewed the descent of Filght 77 on radar:

"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

‘Get These Planes on the Ground’ Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11
ABC News, October 24, 2001

And no, Vincent, I'm not claiming O'Brien is MIHOP or whatever -
I have no idea. The point is that she debunks the claims of your
sources that this was an easy maneuver - it was an extraordinary
maneuver - as Wittenberg said.

Tim Howells

[vincent_vega_lives]

29. I'll concede the source

But this point about the "impossible manuver" is one of the weakest I've seen put forward.

This one doesn't even say anything of note:

The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

It's unsafe; the pilots weren't trying to be "safe". "You don't fly a 757 in that manner"; nope not if you want to keep your pilots wings. Tends to overtax the airframe and upset the passengers. I doubt the hijackers were too concerned with that. I am not claiming it wasn't an extraordinary manuver, it was for a comercial airline...but certainly not impossible or even that difficult.

However, the fact that the plane was being flown in a manner not typical for a jetliner does not mean it was not a jetliner. A 757 is capable of rather extreme maneuvers: It is capable of taking off on one engine, and can execute pitch accelerations of over 3.5 Gs (gravities) as demonstrated by the following incident report of an IcelandAir 757-200:

REPORT 7/2003 - Date: 22 January 2003
serious incident to icelandair BOEING 757-200 at oslo airport gardermoen norway 22 january 2002

...
1.1.14.5 At this time the First Officer called out PULL UP! - PULL UP!. The GPWS aural warnings of TERRAIN and then TOO LOW TERRAIN were activated. Both pilots were active at the control columns and a maximum up input was made. A split between left and right elevator was indicated at this time. It appears the split occurred due to both pilots being active at the controls. The pilots did not register the aural warnings. During the dive the airspeed increased to 251 kt and the lowest altitude in the recovery was 321 ft radio altitude with a peaked load factor of +3.59 gs. 2

How does this apply to the 2.5 minute 270-degree spiral turn? The G forces produced by such a turn can be calculated using the following formula.

RCF = 0.001118 * r * N^2
where
RCF = Relative Centrifugal Force (gravities)
r = rotation radius (meters)
N = rotation speed (revolutions per minute)

If the plane were traveling at 400 miles per hour it would travel 16.666 miles, or 26,821 meters, in 2.5 minutes. Assuming it was traveling in a circular arc, it would trace out 3/4ths of a circle with a 35,761-meter circumference, giving a rotation radius of 5,691 meters and rotation speed of 0.3 rotations per minute. Plugging those values into the above equation, we obtain a centrifugal force of 0.5726 Gs -- hardly a problem for a 757 whose rated G limits are over two.

Final Approach
Also cited as evidence against 757 involvement in the attack is the shallow descent angle of the aircraft as it made its final approach of the Pentagon. Photographs show no signs of gouging of the lawn by a 757's low-hanging engines, even though direct impact damage was limited to the first and second floors of the building. How could such a large aircraft be flown so close to the ground, and with such precision?

Two distinct questions are implicit in the previous one.

Were alleged hijackers capable of piloting the airliner through the maneuvers?
Could a 757-200 perform the maneuvers?
Hani Hanjour may not have been up to the task, but a 757's flight control computer seems sufficient. It's equipped with radar altimeters and accurate GPS monitors for precise altitude and position tracking. It can analyze and respond to conditions hundreds of times per second. Examples of the extreme capabilities of fly-by-wire systems are reverse swept-wing aircraft, which are inherently unstable and require rapid adjustment of the plane's control surfaces.

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/aerobatics.html

[Grateful for Hope]

30. Not being a pilot

I don't know about fight maneuvers, what is safe, and what is not. But, I have to admit that that quote "it's unsafe" struck me as inappropriate when referencing the purpose behind that flight.

But, on second thought, the maneuver would need to be safe enough to ensure that the intended target was struck in order to make the statement that Al Quaeda was purportedly trying to make.

If the pilot was, as we have been told, a novice, then, there is definitely something to think about here, IMO.

[vincent_vega_lives]

31. Hope I'm not a pilot either

but I do know language, and what's possible.

BTW Nice looking children.

Mine is an only child (and spoiled).

[Tim Howells]

32. Misinterpretation ...

vincent_vega_lives wrote:

But this point about the "impossible manuver" is one of the weakest I've seen put forward. This one doesn't even say anything of note:

Washington air traffic controller Danielle O'Brien, who viewed the descent of Flight 77 on radar:

"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

‘Get These Planes on the Ground’ Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11
ABC News, October 24, 2001

You're misinterpreting me here. I didn't say that the maneuver was impossible. I said that it was extraordinary. If you reread the O'Brien quote you will see that she agrees. It was pushing the limits of the aircraft to the point where she could scarcely believe that this was indeed a Boeing 757. She thought that it must be a military aircraft designed for such complex, high speed maneuvers.

To be perfectly clear, I do tend to believe that this was a Boeing 757. I just do not believe that it was being piloted by Hanji Hanjour.

I've surfed a bit looking for more professional opinions one way or the other on Flight 77's approach to the Pentagon. I didn't find anything, but I'll leave you with an interesting general statement regarding the piloting on September 11 from a group of professional pilots that included USAF Capt. Kent Hill (ret) who also flew for American Airlines, and who was a personal friend of Charles Burlingame, the pilot on Flight 77. I completely agree with this statement.

"The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military operation carried out against the USA, requiring the utmost professional military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected targets."

A group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand (USAF, ret.) -
Quoted in:

September 11 - US Government accused
The Portugal News
Front Page Story - 03/08/2002

[Tim Howells]

25. Re the manipulations of financial markets ...

vincent_vega_lives wrote:
> As for the suspicious investments, others here have posted
> good analysis of how some is pure coincidence and much of
> the rest is just inaccurate. but I have less interest in
> that aspect of 9-11 as I prefer to keep to the most obviously
> uneducated claims.

That's a bold statement.

Let me repost the qualifications and the statement by Ernst Welteke:

Ernst Welteke – Former President of Deutsche Bundesbank (German Federal Bank) 1999 - 2004. German politician and political economist. Member of the Hessian State Parliament, 1974 - 1995.

Quoted: "Ernst Welteke, president of the Bundesbank, said financial investigators had found strong indications of suspicious dealings in gold and oil, as well as unusual movements in airline and insurance shares, in the days before the September 11 attacks in the United States. ...'There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge.'"

The statement by Welteke was made in the context of a meeting with European Union finance ministers conducting an investigation of the market manipulations associated with 911. You'll forgive me for believing that Bundesbank President Welteke had both far more information and far more knowledge and experience than you and "others here" who are attempting to dismiss his findings.

Tim Howells

[Kingshakabobo]

28. For starters, Capt. Russ Wittenberg is flat-out wrong on the facts.

The turn lasted 3 minutes and bled a little over 6,000 feet of altitude. Also, it wasn't a "steep" turn - the turn doesn't appear to exceed 45 degrees bank. Actually, it appears the bulk of the turn was executed at approx. 35 degrees. Hardly an "ace" maneuver. It was a fairly standard descending right turn.


Talk about not doing any research: It is Capt. Russ Wittenberg shooting off his mouth and forming an opinion without facts.................

.........or, he made these statements prior to the release of the FDR/simulation......in which case you posted debunked bull-shit as fact.

Which is it?



Here is the FDR simulation posted by the head 9/11 pilot fruit-cake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzR-q0ijbV0

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tim Howells]

39. Kingshakabobo - I'm baffled, please explain. (NT)

[vincent_vega_lives]

14. This reads like a Who's Who of the super smart dumb-asses

Its completely apparent these folks get their information from the same sources folks here do. Even use the same CT buzzwords. I see our friend Dr Judy Wood is amongst them.

[ima_sinnic]

19. yeah, so I guess they're really no threat to those who know the "truth," eh?

:eyes:

[MervinFerd]

27. Correct.

[Tim Howells]

35. kick!

[Tim Howells]

36. Did the BBC interview ANY of these 31 people?

[The Lone Groover]

37. (hand in the air) ...I know... I know... n/t

[Tim Howells]

38. I guess it is more comforting ...

... to pick on Dylan Avery and David Ickes.

[Tim Howells]

40. Kick!

[Taxloss]

41. Stubblebine was given a lot of airtime on Channel 4 lately.

On Jon Ronson's "The Men Who Stare At Goats".

[Tim Howells]

42. Better than nothing I guess ...

Although this looks like a fringe sort of "conspiracy" program,
and Stubblefield would not be my first choice. He's raising
important unanswered questions in his field of expertise, but
I suspect this is a dead-end.

Tim Howells

[Lithos]

44. Locking

Please do not reference Arcticbeacon. The relationship of the author of that site to the noted hate site AmericanFreePress is such that DU does not wish to condone or appear to support it.

Lithos
DU Moderator