I would like the Prosemite website posters here to stop talking about me

[Contrite]

behind my back. And I would like an apology.

I am NOT, repeat NOT an anti-semite, anymore than an orthodox Jew is who is opposed to Zionist philosophies. I don't "like" Israel's foreign policies and I don't appreciate AIPAC's influence in our government. I have a RIGHT to that opinion, and what's more it is shared by millions more.

I am anti-Zionist. Get it straight.

And stop slandering me.

[AZCat]

1. Good luck with that.

Since this web forum has no connection to the other, I don't see how you're going to pull this off, nor do I think you have the right to do so.

[Contrite]

2. I have the right to defend myself publicly.

Period.

[AZCat]

4. If you say so.

I still don't think you're going to be able to dictate what someone says on another forum.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

32. I don't know what you are talking about.

Do you have anything to say other than unproved allegations?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Contrite]

38. Thanks for the invitation.

I am not interested.

[salvorhardin]

39. Then let me direct you to one specific post

I don't think that Contrite really understands the full ramifications of his statements.

That's why education is so important.

There's a direct link between the demonization of a people, the Jewish people, and the murders of so many millions - not just during the Holocaust, but since the Diaspora almost 2,000 years ago - and that really is just "recent" history for us.

Now, to say you're "just" antizionist might sound harmless - but it isn't.

It means you don't believe, of all the nations on this earth, that the Jewish nation - one of the oldest, smallest and most brutally hounded - has the right to a state.

A state means the right to self-determination, not to be a minority, to have to live at the whim of a more powerful and often hostile majority.

It means that you have full civil rights. This wasn't the case in Europe and it wasn't the case in the Middle East either. Neither was there real security - pogroms were liable to break out at any time, with dreadful violence. Jews were taxed at often exorbitant rates, then beaten up and accused of all kinds of crimes, including causing the plague.

We weren't allowed, either in Christendom or in Islam, to freely buy and farm land, bear arms, or take any kind of job. Zionism means, among other things, the right to work, the right to do our own hard labor. Zionists, being free, self-determining people, can carry wood and draw water, plant trees, build cities, drive trucks, build railways. Jews in Israel aren't damned for the mere fact of being Jews.

And, Israel has an army. That's a difficult moral point, as the possession of arms means that blood can be shed - something we abhor as a people. But without the means of self-defense, a people can be, in our case has been, nearly destroyed.

At the time of the Roman Empire, we were 1/10th of its population. Now we're a mere handful, a few millions only, in the world.

Israel's existence has been difficult. People tried to kill her in her cradle. But neither Zionism, nor Israel, ever intended to harm others. To say otherwise is to repeat a lie.

Please think about what we're saying. We don't mean to hurt you. We mean to make you think.

http://prosemiteundercover.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=25615#25615

[Contrite]

40. I am not opposed to Israel as a nation state.

I am opposed to the policies being followed to attain it. Unfortunately, Zionism has been distorted and contorted since its inception. Believe it or not, I have "read up" on the beginnings of the Zionist movement; in fact, I did so recently on a "Jewish site", which site informed me of the fundamental changes that have taken place in the movement.

Edited to add: What I see is, as we "advance" toward "helping Israel", our own sovereignty is being sacrificed, as is the sovereignty of other nations.

[Bolo Boffin]

41. Then you are NOT an anti-Zionist!

What are you?

[Contrite]

42. I am pro-peace.

I am for a two-state solution. I do not understand the division of a nation or creation of a nation based on religion (or race, creed, etc.)

Many Jews have opposed Zionism because they believe that there is a moral contradiction in trying to create an exclusionist Jewish nation-state out of a universal religious ethic. They have also opposed Zionism because of what it has done to the Palestinians and how they believed this violence would transform Judaism.

Although I have not read his book yet, from reviews I believe I am aligned with Jimmy Carter in that Zionist policies in Israel are much like "apartheid" in South Africa.

I believe people should learn to live together. And that means here, too. The insistence that we are a "Christian nation under God" is, to me, anti-American and is being used to divide our country and try to create a "civil war" here. I see the Evangelical church body as an instrument of this division not only here but also in Israel.

I was raised a Christian but I also have paternal lineage that is Jewish (Bluhm). I do not subscribe to either faith but rather to a personal doctrine of peace, love, understanding and tolerance. As Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along?"

Jewish people have assimilated in other parts of the world, as have Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. I see no reason for ANY nation to be aligned with one religion exclusively.

[MervinFerd]

3. Getting a little paranoid, are we? Maybe there's a conspiracy.

[salvorhardin]

5. Shh!

Ixnay ethay opshay alktay. Eway an'tcay etlay Ontritecay owknay atwhay e'veway otgay annedplay orfay imhay.

[seemslikeadream]

10. paranoid - that's rich coming from you

[seemslikeadream]

7. It's what makes them feel important

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Maybe you should go to the I/P forum and explain why...

you believe the Jewish people should not have a country of their own.

[Taxloss]

11. Stop linking to anti-semitic websites.

It's really that simple.

[seemslikeadream]

12. no it is not

that simple and you know that

[Taxloss]

13. What's difficult about it?

I don't give a hoot what Contrite believes in private. It's what information s/he chooses to spread here that is the problem.

Don't link to anti-semitic websites. It's simple.

[seemslikeadream]

15. We're not just talking about Contrite

and you know that also. What is being done to him/her has been to others here and elsewhere in the past and it had nothing to do with anti'semitic sites

[Taxloss]

17. Contrite was talking about Contrite.

And it has everything to do with anti-semitic sites. Everything in the world. The anti-semitic (and in some cases outright Nazi) material that gets linked to in this forum is a problem. A big one.

No one is lying about anyone. If you link to anti-semitic websites, you are promoting and disseminating anti-semitism.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Yes they do and I can prove it

It was done to me by one of your good friends

[Taxloss]

21. I thought we were talking about Contrite.

But if we're not talking about Contrite, and we're not talking about you, and we're not talking about me, then ... well, there's nothing to talk about.

[seemslikeadream]

22. We're talking about truth here

but you seem only to care about certain truths

[Taxloss]

23. I care about "Truthseekers" polluting the left with fascist crap.

You don't seem to care about that.

[seemslikeadream]

24. You care about "Truthseekers" polluting the left with fascist crap.

but you don't care that one of "your own" lies and slanders others to SPREAD the truth?

[Taxloss]

25. Without knowing what you're talking about, it's hard to say. n/t

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

16. Extremely disturbing site

It certainly violates the spirit and perhaps the letter of DU rules. Posters are not supposed to go to one DU forum to plan how to gang up on other posters in another DU forum, and I suppose the same should apply to other sites.

The fact that all these regular DU posters go over there and pour out vitriol on DU and on Skinner and the other owners, and then come back here and pretend to be concerned about DU is very disturbing.

Neither of these behaviors would be tolerated if this were occurring on that other progressive site that cannot be named.

There are other very disturbing aspects of the site mentioned in the OP, but I'll leave it to others to see and deduce for themselves.

[seemslikeadream]

18. Did you notice they do it to other forums as well?

[HamdenRice]

26. It's pretty clear that PSU is a hate site

After a little more reading, I realize that the site mentioned in the OP is clearly a hate site. There is lots of really racist material against Arabs and Muslims. There is even a thread entitled something to the effect that PSU is a hate site because they hate anti-Semites. But in other threads, they basically define anyone who has a perspective different from theirs to be an anti-Semite.

It was shocking and disappointing to see how many DUers are members and regular posters of PSU.

Also I find they routinely trash not just the owners of DU but the moderators, including Lithos. How they are allowed to participate in what goes on over there, and continue to be allowed to post on DU is beyond me.

On edit: But it certainly explains a lot about the dynamics on this forum.

[Taxloss]

27. Shocked, shocked I tell you.

You have not one but TWO logins at the other site. The shit that gets posted there is beyond belief - I wish that it could be discussed here to point to some of it. It is incredibly anti-semitic in content and tone, going FAR beyond anything posted here by either side. And your other site routinely trashes Skinner and other mods including Lithos. The beam in your eye is big enough to build a log cabin out of.

[HamdenRice]

28. Not very convincing

Identifying me with that other progressive site is foolish. As you well know from a thread right here, I last registered there to be able to do a search. I have very few posts there.

Moreover, that other liberal site is a more general interest site than PSU that is not solely devoted to hatred. Although I am not a regular poster or reader at the other liberal site (as you appear to be) my impression is that some of what goes on there is anti-Semitic, but some of it is harsh criticism of Israel for its policies that defenders of Israel choose to interpret as anti-Semitism.

PSU, on the other hand, is almost entirely devoted to hating people either for their racial/religious background or political beliefs, especially liberal beliefs.

I was very disappointed to see you are a regular poster at PSU, which is clearly a hate site. I actually thought that you were distinguishable from the OCTers on this forum, but sadly, today, because of your associations, I can only conclude that you are very tolerant of racism, bigotry and anti-liberal hysteria.

[greyl]

29. Here's a link to that thread. You're welcome.

.

[HamdenRice]

30. Thanks on edit:

That's the one I was referring to.

[Taxloss]

31. I would hardly describe myself as "regular",

and I think your analysis of PSU is extremely unfair, although just as you don't like some of what you see elsewhere, I don't like parts of what I see there. Or here, for that matter. Getting into further discussion about it would necessitate discussing the Israel-Palestine conflict, and this is hardly the place for that.

I appreciate that my association with PSU can reflect badly on me - it's something I happily admit that I think about and re-evaluate on a regular basis. I don't mind being criticised for it, but I find it hypocritical when that criticism comes from members of the other site.

[HamdenRice]

33. Fair enough

And you are right that to go any further requires a discussion of where the line between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism is which would be out of place here.

I will, however, add this observation about an entirely different country. As I've written elsewhere, I was involved in South African issues a lot in the 1980s, and lived there for two years (I'm African American).

By the mid 1980s, a majority of Americans and almost all African Americans were so disgusted with the policies of South Africa, that criticism of the policies coincided with revulsion of white South Africans -- especially Afrikaners. Black people would ask me how I could even go over there, how I could shake hands with white South Africans with whom I was working and how I could possible live there. Most Americans seemed untroubled by the increasingly fuzzy line between revulsion against South Africa's apartheid and revulsion against white South Africans.

For some non-Jews and non-Israelis, I think a very similar phenomenon is happening. It is troubling and those who care about Israel need to think hard about this problem. (White South Africans addressed the problem by distancing themselves from their government's policies, despite the personal revulsion directed against them.) Some of the emotionalism and vituperation you seen with respect to Israel is not classic anti-Semitism (as PSUers seem overwhelmingly to believe) even if it may be morally wrong, but is something like what happened to South Africa, and again, as someone who lived in South Africa, nothing I saw in South Africa approaches what is now going on in Israel/Palestine, and the revulsion is therefore likely to grow.

[Taxloss]

19. LOL

Neither of these behaviors would be tolerated if this were occurring on that other progressive site that cannot be named.

Be serious. According to that other site, DU is a Tavistock mind-control experiment.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

35. As usual not worth responding

to your posts because of a false premise. Where did I say I was "anti-Zionist"? Links would be appreciated.

[AZCat]

36. Uhhh, HR - the post wasn't in response to one of yours.

I know how it happens - I do the same thing - the post "tree" gets a little confusing when lots of sub-threads pile up. But in this case, A-S was responding to the OP, not your post.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

37. This is a reply to the OP

[Lithos]

43. Locking

Should be obvious why.

Please do not reference PSU, PI, CU, LU or PFC as such conversations will likely generate little positive traction here on DU.

And PLEASE do not reference sites promoting an extremely biased and/or bigoted agenda. This includes sites established with the intent to mainstream bigoted agendas. Not only is it extremely offensive to those who the agenda is targeted towards, they are sites DU does NOT wish to appear to condone or promote.

Lithos
DU Moderator