9/11 report reveals who was at controls before crash

[vincent_vega_lives]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/22/911.flight.93/index.html

The passenger revolt began at 9:57 a.m., nearly 30 minutes after the four terrorists aboard launched their takeover of the Boeing 757 loaded with more than 11,000 gallons of jet fuel.

As passengers charged the cockpit door, terrorist hijacker Ziad Jarrah began rolling the plane to the left and right, "attempting to knock the passengers off balance," the 9/11 commission report said. Jarrah told another hijacker in the cockpit to block the door.

By 9:59 a.m., Jarrah changed tactics and "pitched the nose of the airplane up and down to disrupt the assault."

"The recorder captured the sounds of loud thumps, crashes, shouts and breaking glass and plates. At 10:00:03 a.m., Jarrah stabilized the airplane," the report says.

"Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, 'Is that it? Shall we finish it off?' A hijacker responded, 'No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off.' "

(continued)

[ewagner]

1. Help me out on this:

Take a look at this quote:

The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting, 'Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest.


This brings a LOT of questions to mind:

1. Did any of the eyewitnesses to the attack mention that the plane was upside down?
2. Was the black-box data recorder recovered? I seem to remember that it wasn't. If not, how the hell do they know that the plane was on it's back?
3. If the plane was rolled over on it's back, didn't the hijacker who was guarding the door gett tossed onto the ceiling?
4. Is a Boeing 757 stressed for that kind of a maneuver? Did it break up before hitting the ground?

I've tried to follow threads on flight 97 but this one baffles me.

Your enlightenment is welcomed.

[Carni]

2. I am sorry but...

I read this yesterday and I share your confusion (because this sounds like a made up bunch of crap)

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vincent_vega_lives]

16. Dang no sense of humor?

Didn't get the Austin Powers reference I see?

[vincent_vega_lives]

8. Do you Yahoo?

cuz a simple search would lead to self enlightment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=article&articleid=A28603-2001Sep14

Flight Data Recorder Is Found at Pa. Site


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/28/MN115971.DTL

In the final minutes of United Airlines Flight 93, the voice data recorder picked up the sounds of a desperate struggle

As far as turning violently...yes I recall seeing a news program where the flight data was converted into a computer flight animation, showing the violent roll and a dive into the ground causing the plane to cart-wheel.

3. If the plane was rolled over on it's back, didn't the hijacker who was guarding the door gett tossed onto the ceiling? It would seem that by that time the 2 hijackers had already been neutralized, hence the pilot's desperate measures.

4. Is a Boeing 757 stressed for that kind of a maneuver? Did it break up before hitting the ground? I am certain that that kind of manuver would cause structural stresses beyond airframe capabilites, and would almost certainly grounded the aircraft upon landing. But in this case it hardly mattered.

I've tried to follow threads on flight 97 but this one baffles me.

Well there's your problem, you were following the wrong flight.

[Carni]

3. Additionally

I have sort of a problem with this dialogue

"Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, 'Is that it? Shall we finish it off?' A hijacker responded, 'No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off.' "

Has anyone in the public (like the families) ever heard the tape where these statements are supposedly made?

[ewagner]

4. Nope

Never heard that part of the dialogue before. As far as I know this is new information....don't think the families even heard the whole tape.

[frylock]

6. were these statements made in english?

and if so, why?

[vincent_vega_lives]

10. Doubt it

I think translation.

[vincent_vega_lives]

9. YES

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/19/rec.flight.93.families/?related

PRINCETON, New Jersey (CNN) -- Relatives of the 40 passengers and crew members killed when a hijacked plane crashed into a rural Pennsylvania field September 11 said Thursday the cockpit voice recording offers further proof that those on board acted heroically -- fighting back against hijackers who commandeered United Airlines Flight 93 from Newark to San Francisco.

[DulceDecorum]

13. Then the original pilots

SUCKED big time.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. The families haven't heard the whole tape

But they have heard the final moments (those that wanted to).

They can confirm or deny whether this is what they heard, and the 9/11 commissioners know it. So this must be an accurate transcript of the hijackers' words.

[seatnineb]

5. Counter terrorist insurgency.........

Vincent.........

You need to quit your archaic dancing moves.........



And get with the program..........

The passenger revolt didn't begin at 9:57am

It started 17 minutes earlier..........

“We are all running to 1st class!”

http://www.warroom.com/nyterrorism/flightattendant.htm

Wow!
That sure must have been one long aisle if it took these heroes roughly 17 minutes to get from the back of the plane to the front........

Geez and in all that time.....
Hijacker playboy Jarrah never once thought about rolling the plane.........

[ewagner]

7. Shameless kick

to leave it open for answers/opinions.......

[handywork]

12. Also why would they not just keep trying to fly

It's not like the other passengers could have flown the plane... why not just keep flying until they break the door down and beat your ass. it makes no sense to me that they would have crashed it themselves unless passengers were actually in the cockpit....

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vincent_vega_lives]

15. What makes you think

that just because the airframe still has a registration number it did not crash?

And don't you think that if the conspirists that put the plot together would have taken care of that?

If you are so sure Todd M. Beamer never existed before 9-11 (why the conspirists would need to invent people is beyond me) why don't you contact Oracle Corp. I'm sure a few people there knew him. Or even call his wife and tell her her husband was a product of a government conspiricy. What about all the rest on the flight? Fake?

Slander is rather lacking decorum, doncha think?

[seatnineb]

17. Phantom Beamer.......

Well Vince.........

Under the cicumstances.......
Todd's word is only as good as the person who receives his call......
In this case the word of Verizon Supervisor Lisa Jefferson.........

Lisa Jeferson who is A PROVEN liar.
And how do we know this.
Because she lied to Todd Beamer himself!

From the documentary:
Flight 93:
A Reconstruction.
Shown to mark the 1 year anniversary in 2002.

An actor reciting the part of Todd Beamer asks Lisa Jefferson if......

"Some of the people on the plane think that they(hijackers) are going to intentionally crash it into the ground.Do you know anything about anything thats been happening......."

Cut to the real Lisa Jefferson:

And I told him I didn't know.
But from the people standing behind me I could hear exactly what was going on.We knew that these were suicides or attempts and that they were taking these planes down on purpose.
But I didn't want him to get upset at all so I didn't give him that information.

Know matter what the circumstances.
Or in who's interests.
Jefferson lied to Beamer.

She has the capacity to lie.

Why should anyone believe anything she says?

[vincent_vega_lives]

18. Oh Please, that IS reaching

"And I told him I didn't know.
But from the people standing behind me I could hear exactly what was going on.We knew that these were suicides or attempts and that they were taking these planes down on purpose.
But I didn't want him to get upset at all so I didn't give him that information."

Her lie was an act of compassion, to try to save someone who was sentenced to death foreknowlege of that, like the guy who tells his buddy with his guts hanging out he's going to be OK. Was it the right thing to do? Should she have told him the truth? Would it have made a difference? I can't answer that.

She has the capacity to lie.

Show me someone who doesn't have the "capacity" to lie.

[seatnineb]

19. Lisa D Jefferson or Lisa D Robinson?

Vincent quite rightly hypothesizes........
"Was it the right thing to do? Should she have told him the truth? Would it have made a difference? I can't answer that."

But a woman with a mutating name can.............
Because...
Just 2 days after the disaster........
We were told that.......

He(Todd Beamer) provided detailed information about the hijacking and - AFTER THE OPERATOR(LISA D ROBINSON/LISA D JEFFERSON) TOLD HIM ABOUT the morning's World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks - said he and others on the plane were planning to act against the terrorists aboard.
September 16, 2001
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/525041/posts

But by the time the 2002 anniversary came round LISA D ROBINSON had definitively morphed into LISA D JEFFERSON....
Who had this to say.........

AND I TOLD HIM (Todd Beamer) I DIDN'T KNOW.
But from the people standing behind me I could hear exactly what was going on.We knew that these were suicides or attempts and that they were taking these planes down on purpose.
But I didn't want him to get upset at all SO I DIDN'T GIVE HIM THAT INFORMATION.
From the T.V Documentary
Flight 93: A Reconstruction(2002)

Vince also correctly says............
"show me someone who doesn't have the "capacity" to lie."

Good point.
But it is the ramification of the lie that counts most.

[Bolo Boffin]

23. Your slander of Lisa Beamer is desperate, pathetic, and beneath you.

Why would you come to this website and try to associate it with such foul opinions like that?

[seatnineb]

24. Which Jarrah does Lisa Beamer believe in?

Bolo and Carlvs..........
Judging by your reactions......
Guess the truth hurts.
Huh?

I've read a lot about Lisa Beamer.......
Does she once address who her husband was fighting against......

Was her husband,Todd Beamer trying to wrestle control of flight 93 from this man..


Or this man........


Seeing as they are supposed to be one in the same person.........
Is Lisa Beamer not in the least bit concerned to find out which Jarrah caused her husbands untimely death?

Plus...........
Did Lisa D Jefferson tell Todd Beamer about the other attacks in New York and the Pentagon as was reported in September 2001.

Or did Lisa D Jefferson NOT tell Todd Beamer about the attacks on New York and the Pentagon as reported in September 2002.

As I said......
It is the ramifications of the lie that counts the most.

[Bolo Boffin]

25. Wow.

You post four pictures of the same person...

...and then ask me which of the "two" men Todd Beamer was fighting.

That's pretty incredible, 9B.

[number6]

64. you need to ajust the focus on your computer sceen...

;) long face vs round face :wow:

[Bolo Boffin]

65. :eyes:

:eyes:

The four pictures are of the same person. There's nothing so glaringly dissimilar to contradict that.

[seatnineb]

66. It is all in the eye-lids........

Look at the EYE-LIDS of this chap ,Bolo.............


And compare them to this guy's EYELIDS.........


And now ,Bolo, let us do it again for good measure.
Lets compare the right EYE-LID of the guy in this torn passport


With the right EYE-LID of this guy


Whad da ya think?

[seatnineb]

67. And whilst we're at it..........

The F.B.I tells us that this fellow,who goes by the name of Saeed Alghamdi (of Flight 93)..........



Is the same as this chap..........



Same nose.
Same eyebrows.

Not sure about the eyes though.

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Let me refresh your memory on things associated with eyes

Things like blinking, or being tired one day and holding your eyelids more closed on those days.

It's the same guy.

[Bolo Boffin]

68. :eyes:

I think that in some pictures, the man has his eyelids closed more than in others. Big whoop.

It's the same guy.

[MercutioATC]

26. They all look the same to me.

Look at the lips, nostrils and inside corners of the eyes. Those are four pictures of the same person.

[DulceDecorum]

29. Yo, clockwatcher

check this out.

He then held up a Rolex watch that Beamer wore when the plane crashed. It was found beneath the ground, stopped on Sept. 11 still with the smell of jet fuel.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/7_43/local_news/20012-1.html

That durn Rolex warnt any better than them Skilcraft ee-lectrik clocks.

[MercutioATC]

33. What does THAT have to do with anything?

So Beamer's watch was recovered. So what?

[DulceDecorum]

40. Unanswered questions

He then held up a Rolex watch that Beamer wore when the plane crashed. It was found beneath the ground, stopped on Sept. 11 still with the smell of jet fuel.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/7_43/local_news/20012-1.html

1) Where was Todd Beamer's wrist?
2) Why did the watch stop?
3) Why did it still smell of jet fuel?
4) How did the jet fuel get on the watch?
5) Why was it BENEATH the ground?
6) How do they know it was BEAMER's Rolex?
7) Was the watch intact?
8) How come Doug MacMillan has custody of the watch?
9) Is that watch a REAL Rolex?
10) Does Rolex know that one of their chronometers failed on September 11?

And there are more questions
but since you have yet to answer any to our satisfaction,
we will hold off asking them
for the time being.

[MercutioATC]

45. Are you serious? THOSE are the questions you have?

I'll attempt answers:

1) I have no idea. Plane crashes tend to scatter the bits around.

2) Most instruments respond negatively to 500+ knot crashes.

3) Because it had jet fuel on it?

4) I believe it had something to do with being in the wreckage of a plane full of jet fuel.

5) 500+ knot crashes into dirt usually tend to imbed things in the ground.

6) I have no idea. Maybe it was engraved.

7) Because Rolex makes good watches? In a crash, some things usually get damaged more than others. A watch (especially a metal watch) is a pretty dense object. I don't find it that hard to believe that it could have remained in one piece.

8) Does this matter at all?

9) The article says so...I'm assuming it is until contrary proof is provided.

10) I don't think they'd care much. I'll bet Rolexes involved in crashes stop working every day.

"And there are more questions"...

If this batch of ten is representative of the caliber of the questions remaining, please don't bother me with them.

[objection]

46. Hook line and sinker.

Ever get the feeling you're being laughed at?

[MercutioATC]

47. Have you READ some of the "serious" posts here?

You'd be amazed how adamantly certain people will defend pet CT sources (like databases, whether proven innacurate or not) and the bizarre statements they'll make to defend their positions.

[DulceDecorum]

49. The DATABASES are fake?

Good Lord!!
Where shall we now go to check up on your claim that you really are an ATC?

What evidence do you have
that the FEDERAL DATABASES
are unreliable?

[MercutioATC]

51. When did I say they were "fake"?

I said "innacurate". It's actually less of a matter of their innacuracies than the misapplication of the data they provide.

You're STILL claiming that two of the 9/11 planes are flying simply because they're still in the FAA database, even though the matter has been explained at least a dozen times.

Now, you're claiming that Todd Beamer didn't really exist, based solely on another database.

Why not look at it from another angle and see if your assertions make the slightest bit of sense? They just don't.

[objection]

54. Maybe this will help

Fake
something that is a counterfeit; not what it seems to be
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=fake

Inaccurate
containing or characterized by error; "erroneous conclusions"; "the answer was inaccurate"
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=inaccurate



Disclaimer
http://www.bts.gov/disclaimer.html

N.B.

"Unauthorized attempts ... to utilize this system for other than its intended purposes are prohibited and may result in criminal prosecution."

"BTS makes no claims, promises or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of this website and expressly disclaims liability for errors and omissions in the contents of this website...."

[Abe Linkman]

57. I don't have any evidence that he's not. But, I don't believe it.

I haven't seen any evidence that's he's not an ATC, but I don't believe it, anyhow.

[objection]

63. Who but an ATC

would have that sort of infinite patience while surrounded by incoherent babble?

[MercutioATC]

53. Read Post #48. Her questions were serious...

See, I told you....

:)

[DulceDecorum]

48. The caliber of the questions

Awww
And I was just about to ask WHAT THE TIME WAS on the Rolex
seeing as how that of the Official Story
and the Actual Seismic Record
are totally different.

The plane crashed at approximately 10:20 a.m. ET, a few miles from the town of Shanksville.
<snip>
Investigators on the site have told reporters that the plane almost totally disintegrated on impact, leaving a crater several feel deep in a field surrounded by woods.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_PAcrash010912.html

It is interesting to note that you too, MercutioABC,
allege that the ROLEX is intact
unlike the Boeing.

Reporters were taken to the top of a hill overlooking the scene. The crash left a V-shaped gouge in a grassy field surrounded by thick woods, just below a hilltop strip mine. The gouge was 8 to 10 feet deep and 15 to 20 feet long, said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police.
Investigators believe the plane crashed there and disintegrated, sending debris into thick trees nearby, Monaco said.
''There's nothing in the ground you can see,'' Monaco said of the crash site. ''It just looks like tiny pieces of debris.''
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/attack/ap_bathroom_call.htm

The gouge was 8 to 10 feet deep and 15 to 20 feet long.
Hmmmmm
Sound like that gouge is
three regular coffins long and just a little deeper than a regular grave.
I wonder where I got the idea that
a Boeing 757 is larger than 10 feet wide and 20 feet long.
Or what Newton meant when he said
matter is neither created nor destroyed.
He was wrong, you know. Flight 93 proves it.

Incidentally,
are you SURE you met Doug MacMillan?
Can you pick him out of a line up?
Can you recognize his voice?
How did you know it was him?

Perhaps I shouldn't ask any more questions though,
consdering the caliber of the answers.

[MercutioATC]

52. You're right, DD. It could have been a MacMillan imposter at the ceremony

:eyes:

[DulceDecorum]

31. Lisa Lisa Lisa

Todd Beamer placed a call on one of the Boeing 757's on-board telephones and spoke for 13 minutes with
GTE operator LISA D. ROBINSON,
Beamer's wife said. He provided detailed information about the hijacking and — after the operator told him about the morning's World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks — said he and others on the plane were planning to act against the terrorists aboard, Lisa Beamer said.
http://www.poconorecord.com/report/wtc/63.htm
http://www.wheaton.edu/front/911/obits.html

Todd Beamer was on the line for about 15 minutes -- long enough for him to ask Jefferson to relay a message to his wife and two sons, David, 3, and Drew, 1. "Tell her I love her and the boys," he told Jefferson. Lisa Beamer, 32, said she is expecting another child in January.
She said her husband knew she was at home, but she believes he called the GTE operator to spare his wife pain and to get word of the hijacking to authorities. He gave Jefferson his home phone number and asked her to call. On Friday, Lisa Beamer finally spoke with Jefferson.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=nation/specials/attacked&contentId=A41095-2001Sep16

LISA JEFFERSON said the operator who answered the call from Flight 93 became so upset that she as SUPERVISOR, had to take over.
"I was the person Todd Beamer ended up speaking with in his final call," said Jefferson. "The representative who answered the call appeared to be traumatized, so I moved her to another location, put the headset on and did what I had to do."
http://www.dod.gov/news/Jun2003/n06182003_200306181.html

CAUTION: Please remove all liquids from the vicinty of your keyboard.
List of Honorees
http://www.americasheroes.us/womenareheroestoo.html

Lisa (Brosious) Beamer Wheaton Class of'91 is the wife.
Lisa D. Robinson GTE OPERATOR appears to have handed the call over to
Lisa Jefferson GTE SUPERVISOR who is married to
Warren Jefferson, not to be confused with
Warren Bird, Wheaton Class of 78, who is the Pastor of Princeton Alliance Church
which is where Todd Beamer taught a high school Sunday school class, and Lisa (Brosious) Beamer is on the church's governing board.
Where Phyllis Johnson, GTE Operator comes in, I do not know.

But we still do not know whether Beamer used his
cell phone
or the Airfone.

Before the crash, Beamer dialed zero on the onboard phone system, reaching an operator at GTE in Chicago. He told her the plane had been hijacked.
<snip>
Beamer's call to the operator was one of nearly two dozen in-flight calls from Flight 93 between 9 and 10 a.m. EDT that day, along with dozens of similar calls from the three other planes that crashed.
GTE has released no details of the other calls, which were placed to private parties rather than the operator. Some crash victims' relatives have given accounts of the calls in news media interviews.
Nor has GTE released a transcript of the Beamer call, which, because it was to an operator, was tape-recorded.
Pallone said GTE, as a gesture to help air travelers feel more secure, will discount rates for Airfone calls from planes in coming weeks.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010919gtenatp3.asp

Beamer spent his last 15 minutes speaking to a GTE AirFone operator, describing the hijackers: Two were armed with knives and a third said he had a bomb strapped to his waist. His voice, heard against a backdrop of chaos and screams, sounded completely calm. He asked that the operator call his wife and children to tell them that he loved them, and they recited the Lord's prayer. He also said he was going to jump the hijacker who had the bomb.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/notebooks/20010923bucnot0923p7.asp

Operators weren't privy to most of the calls, placed to private parties -- mostly loved ones -- by passengers. Beamer, 32, of Cranbury, N.J., was the only passenger who dialed zero for the Airfone operator.
He reached Phyllis Johnson.
Johnson quickly turned the call over to Jefferson, her supervisor, who immediately contacted the FBI, airline security and Verizon operations personnel. Then she spoke with Beamer.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010922gtenat4p4.asp

NEWSWEEK Dec. 3 issue — In the first few days after September 11, Lisa Beamer could not sleep for more than an hour. Then she would wake up and cry. She worried about the boys, David, 3, and Drew, 19 months, and the new baby due in January. David wanted to know why, if their father loved them so much, he had gone to be with Jesus. And there was that one nagging question. Why had her husband, a man so attached to his cell phone that Lisa had to confiscate it when they went on vacation, not called her from the plane? Other passengers had called home from Flight 93 to say goodbye and talk to their loved ones. Why not Todd?
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/TotW/flight_93.html

Brian Mumau, another member of the Beamers' small group, recalled that Beamer carried two cell phones and was always talking to people, catching up with them and remembering their prayer requests. Beamer, a 1991 graduate of Wheaton, left a message of encouragement on Mumau's answering machine from the airport just before he boarded Flight 93.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/138/33.0.html

The last words heard by cell phone from that flight were those of 32-year-old Todd Beamer, who had spent the last 15 minutes of life talking to a GTE air phone operator telling of the hijacking.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24635

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DulceDecorum]

27. Slander?

What slander?

The mastermind of this operation
goofed big time.

Why do you,
a person who blames Osama bin Laden
lift up your voice in LAMENTATION AND COMPLAINT
when I point out the fact that
the persons behind this were
fricking stupid?

You should express joy when informed that
the plane lives to this very day.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=591ua
NOTE: every single time that the FAA database has been contradicted
by some US politician or the US media,
the FAA database has been found to be truthful and accurate.
Take N4610 for example:
http://www.kathryncramer.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=6&search=n4610

The Social Security Death Index
http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
which has 72,265,659 Records
lists only ONE Todd Beamer.
(September 11, 1968 - Jun 10, 1997)
If you have any questions pertaining to SSDI recordkeeping,
I am certain you can contact them.

It is NO secret that
a woman claiming to be the wife of Todd Morgan Beamer
has received considerable amounts of taxpayer money
and sizable donations from US citizens
on the strength of that claim.
These facts are ALREADY in the public domain.
We ought to be able to see what the Social Security Administration
has to say about the man.
Lord knows we have caught Novak et al
and the Boston FBI
in treachery so many times that
we would have be babbling fools
to accept ANYTHING they have to say.

The Boston FBI claims that the hijackers of Flight 93 were
Saeed Alghamdi
Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi
Ahmed Alnami
Ziad Samir Jarrah

BOTH Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami are VERY MUCH ALIVE.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0302/S00218.htm

So why should we then assume that
the Boeing and the Beamer
perished on September 11, 2001?

As for the wife of the Beamer,
what makes you think that she is NOT a player?
We want to see her current tax returns
and her birth and marriage certificates.
We want to see her parents tax returns
for all the years when they claimed her as a dependent
and we want to see the same for her husband
and for all those faces on the TV who claim to have lost family members.
(Including the papers of Ted Olson's Barby the Harpy.)
After they show us those documents,
they can then spit epithets at us.
We, who are simply following the advice of Ronald Reagan,
the Great Communicator,
who urged us always to
TRUST BUT VERIFY.

Look what happened when we checked up on the Saudi Arabians,
and then tell me why
the Americans are NOT to be held up to the same investigative standards.

The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers' "personal details" - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.
Mr Al-Ghamdi was named as a terrorist on the United Airlines flight that crashed in Pennsylvania - a plane said by some experts to have been heading for the White House.
He first knew that he was on the FBI's list when he was told by a colleague. Speaking from Tunisia, he said: "I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks.
"You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive." The airline was angry too. Officials brought Mr Al-Ghamdi back to Saudi Arabia last week for a 10-day holiday to avoid arrest or interrogation.
An official said: "We are consulting lawyers about what action to take to protect the reputation of our pilots." Mr Al-Ghamdi faced further embarrassment when CNN, the American television network, flashed a photograph of him around the world, naming him as a hijack suspect.
The FBI had published his personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had "stolen" his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr Al-Ghamdi.
He said that CNN had probably got the picture from the Flight Safety flying school he attended in Florida. CNN has since broadcast a clarification saying that the photograph may not be that of the accused.
<snip>
Mr Al-Nami, 33, from Riyadh, an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines, said that he was in Riyadh when the terrorists struck.
He said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked."
He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida.
Last night the FBI admitted that there was some doubt about the identities of some of the suspects. A spokesman said: "The identification process has been complicated by the fact that many Arabic family names are similar. It is also possible that the hijackers used false identities."
The spokesman declined to say whether the FBI would apologise but added: "If we have made mistakes then obviously that would be regrettable but this is a big and complicated investigation."
When the list was published Robert Mueller, the FBI director, said that it was "fairly confident" that the names were not aliases.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml

Can you hazard a guess,
WHY '
the FBI is running scared
from these living "hijackers?"

[objection]

32. VERY MUCH ALIVE?

You got the wrong guys.

Saeed Alghamdi, Mohand Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari and Salem Alhazmi - are not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington.

This is admitted even by by some of the most unrepentant cospiracy
theorist sites:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers_flt_175.html

Right from the start the FBI Press releases referred for instance to "Date of birth used:" and "possible residence" the inference clearly enough being that the identities may be false.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/091401hj.htm

So why then work so hard to confuse the issue?

How can it possibly help to be so deceptively disingenuous?

[DulceDecorum]

36. And still

when we apply the same yardstick to the Beamer,
-- date of birth used -- and -- possible residence --
you become enraged
because it is now your ox that has been gored.

You say I have the wrong guys.
I got my info straight from the FBI.
J Edna Hoover's FBI.
Robert Mueller's home branch of the FBI.

These guys are the ones the FBI has fingered.
Just like they did Salvati.
And these photos are STILL up on the FBI website,
wrong guys or not.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/ua93/93.htm

What ACTUAL PROOF do you have that those guys did it?
What ACTUAL PROOF do you have that Todd Morgan Beamer
did NOT steal the identity of
Todd E Beamer (11 Sep 1968 - 10 Jun 1997) ?

Can we TRUST the words of fellow alum,
maker and painter of duck decoys,
John Dennis Hastert, Wheaton Class of '64?
http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/article_52.html

Wheaton College exists to help build the church and improve society worldwide by promoting the development of whole and effective Christians through excellence in programs of Christian higher education.
http://www.wheaton.edu/welcome/mission.html

"Denny Hastert and Tom DeLay have climbed the mountain together. And when one has gotten above the other, they help him get up and they have been extraordinarily successful because they work so well together," Congressman Christopher Shays (R-Conn.) said recently.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/108th/bio_hastert.html

"If you want to play in our revolution, you have to live by our rules," DeLay tells lobbyists. He has two lists of the 400 largest PACs, those who he deems friendly and those he deems unfriendly. "We re just following the old adage of punish your enemies and reward your friends," DeLay says. He once told Congress Daily, "Money is not the root of all evil in politics. In fact, money is the lifeblood of politics."
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8086
Wheaton College has been amply rewarded.
http://www.wheaton.edu/beamercenter/

It has been suggested that Wheaton has more churches per square mile than any other US city. One version of this idea claims that Wheaton has more churches than any other place in the world next to Italy, a notion which many visitors find plausible upon seeing the many churches which line the downtown streets. One of Wheaton's most renowned features is Wheaton College, whose campus features a center - named for alumnus and evangelist Billy Graham - which is full of pictures of Graham and conceptual exhibits intended to convey Christian ideas. Wheaton is also home to the headquarters for the Theosophical Society in America, .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton,_Illinois

Wheaton College is a private, Christian college located in Wheaton, Illinois that was founded in 1860.
Known as the "Harvard of the Evangelicals," this academically challenging school is made up of approximately 2,400 undergraduate students. These students come from all 50 states and 44 different countries. Its motto "For Christ and His Kingdom" is proudly displayed on its front lawn across from the Billy Graham Center, named after the college's most well-known graduate. As a Wheaton professor said, "The Billy Graham Center is like colonial architecture on steroids."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton_College%2C_Illinois

Surely you remember ole Billy Graham?
"... a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_%28evangelist%29

He hangs out with those totally trustworthy Republicans too.
Like GW Bush.

We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

[objection]

41. The FBI gave the names

that the suspects were known to have used to transact. What else would you want the FBI to do? It is hardly a novelty that different people do use similar names and criminals do occassionally fake identities.

If you have any doubts about Beamer take it up with his family. They're presumably in a better position to inform. I can't see what you'd hope to catch by chasing the cats up this here tree.

[DulceDecorum]

50. An admission, at last.

objection says:
It is hardly a novelty that different people do use similar names and criminals do occassionally fake identities.

For once, we agree.
And I like your use of the word
CRIMINALS.

[objection]

55. In the same sort of way

that it may criminally pervert the course of justice to assert that a deceased suspect is still alive when the truth is merely that an identity was unfortunately duplicated or deliberately stolen, the deceased suspect being as matter of fact perfectly dead.

Agreed?

Are we getting somewhere?

[seatnineb]

72. What are the odds Dulce.........

Considering.....
That Al-Cia'da have been only to happy to show video "wills" of the hijackers that had apparently been declared ALIVE in variouse parts of the world AFTER 9/11/01.......

Like this guy..... Alghamdi(Flight 93)

Who was said to be ALIVE after 9/11........

Which prompted our friends in Al-Cia'da to release this video with the aforementioned AlGhamdi to confirm that he was in fact a "brother" who took part in the "Holy Tuesday" operation....


Or this guy..........Alomari

Who was said to be ALIVE after 9/11..........

Which prompted our friends in Al-Cia'da to release this video with the aforementioned Alomari to confirm that he was in fact a "brother" who took part in the "Holy Tuesday" operation......


Then there was Khalid Al- Midhar........

Who was said to be ALIVE after 9/11..........

Which prompted the F.B.I to release the airport surveillance video confirming that Khalid was in fact one of the hijackers who took part
in the worst terrorist attack on American soil in history....


So that just leaves these guys......
All said to be ALIVE after 9/11


Ahmed Alnami


Marwan Al-Shehhi


Waleed Alshehri

What are the chances of seeing either Al-Cia'da video "wills" or airport surveillance footage featuring these chaps when the 3rd year anniversary comes round this September.........

[MercutioATC]

20. Todd Beamer wasn't a real person??

Somebody should tell Doug MacMillan, a close friend of Beamer's who started (and was CEO of) the Todd M. Beamer Foundation to aid the families of the 9/11 victims.

I met Doug personally, and he seemed pretty sure there was a Todd Beamer....

:eyes:

[DulceDecorum]

28. YOU met him personally???

Then that settles it.

Todd Morgan Beamer is just as real
as the hijackers' passports.
http://usembassy.state.gov/nigeria/wwwhxsept02f.html

[NecessaryOnslaught]

30. del

[MercutioATC]

34. Saying Todd Beamer wasn't a real person is just silly.

You don't think his co-workers and family remember him? His friends (like Doug)?

Yes, I met him personally. We had a ceremony to honor the passengers of UAL93 and the controllers at Cleveland Center. There's now a small garden with a plaque in front of the Center and a donation was made to the Todd Beamer Foundation (the "big check" still hangs on the wall in the lobby of the Center).

Lemme guess, you've concluded that Todd Beamer didn't exist because of info you've gleaned from yet another database, didn't you?

Sheesh...you'd think that after somebody was burned enough times, they'd reconsider their methods...

[Abe Linkman]

35. And speaking of people who have been burned.

When Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, she is alleged to have said:
"I'm smoking MORE now, but enjoying it less."

[Not gullible]

37. Official story a fairy-tale!

Many of these alleged 19 "hijackers" are still alive to this day!!

Here is the proof:


http://www.welfarestate.com/911

http://www.stormtronic.co.uk/9-11/Alleged%20hijackers%20-%20Alive%20and%20Well.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

[Not gullible]

39. Not even filmed on 9/11...

The surveillance video is not even filmed on 9/11...

Here is the proof:

http://joevialls.altermedia.info/wtc/clueless.html

[objection]

42. Except that not one of those "still alive" claims

to have been anywhere near to or involved with the 9/11 events, right?

So they are not the same guys then, right?

People using those identities did exist and were involved with the events, right?

So this "still alive" talk serves to confuse the issue, right?

[MercutioATC]

44. Yawn...

Another no-content post...

[DulceDecorum]

38. Are you trying to insinuate

that the hijacker's passports are NOT real?

As real as Todd Beamer?
Whose photographs I have just posted?

Then WHO is the man in those pictures?
Tell me that.

[MercutioATC]

43. No, I'm responding to your statement that Beamer didn't exist before 9/11.

(actually, I don't have your exact post...it seems to have been deleted).

Todd Beamer existed, regardless of what your famous databases might lead you to believe.

[DulceDecorum]

56. Maybe Todd E Beamer had

a slight case of cerebral palsy.
THAT would explain a lot.
http://www.odt.co.nz/cgi-bin/getitem?date=17Jul2004&object=0716925218&type=html

According to the Social Security Death Index,
Todd E Beamer DID exist
between September 11, 1968 and June 10, 1997.

The Social Security Death Index
searched through at least 72,265,659 records
but returned no information concerning
ANY Todd Morgan Beamer
who allegedly perished on September 11, 2001.

It would be most amusing,
if ALL the Social Security Numbers of
ALL of the victims of September 11
were to be run through the Social Security Database
and the IRS records.

The results would be VERY interesting
AND
they might just - temporarily - silence the critics.
Much like how
the release of the military records of GW Bush
have rendered dozens of die-hard Democrats
almost speechless.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2058780&mesg_id=2058780

[MercutioATC]

58. Did you MISS the disclaimer on the website??

The database doesn't claim to be complete. Why do you insist on representing it as if it does?

[Abe Linkman]

59. How about, because of no evidence to the contrary. That work for ya?

Database accuracy is only important when it supports the "Cavemen Did It" Conspiracy Theory...regardless of whether you have any evidence to the contrary.

[MercutioATC]

60. No, databases that ADMIT they may be incomplete or innacurate

shouldn't be considered "proof" without other data.

You disagree?

What other data do you have proving that either two of the 9/11 planes are still flying or that Todd Beamer was a fabrication?

None. Just databases.

[Abe Linkman]

61. Those databases have no basis for admitting ANYTHING.

They should all be hushed up.

[MercutioATC]

62. Thanks for the nonsensical diversion, Abe...

It's a good thing there's somebody here to inject a bit of senseless levity from time to time...

[DulceDecorum]

70. MercutioATC claims

to have met one Doug MacMillan
who claims to have been a buddy of Todd Morgan Beamer.

Todd Morgan Beamer does not appear on the SSDI list of deceased individuals.
It would be interesting to see if Todd Morgan Beamer could have his identity verified by tax returns, pay stubs and other paperwork which is routinely encountered by the living.

A very high number of 911 families appear to have identical alibis, by I mean to say that one source provides alibis for multiple persons.
For example, Alice Hoglan, the mother of Mark Bingham is alleged to have worked for United Airlines for several years.

Although Bingham worked hard, he evidently had a sense of adventure. Both Alice and her sister Candyce Hoglan are flight attendants for United Airlines, and Bingham went on overseas trips using their frequent flyer miles. This summer, he went to Spain and Italy, where he "got drunk on sangria" and went running with the bulls.
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/09.20.01/mpnews1-0138.html

Alice retired two years after September 11. Mark Bingham was 31 at the time of his final phone call. Mark Bingham is alleged to have died aboard N591UA. (which has been seen as late as 2003 in O'Hare and is still registered by the FAA.) Flight 93 was operated by United Airlines.
Thus United Airlines vouches for the identies of both the mother and her son and the sister/aunt. No-one else is even consulted.
United Airlines is their sole raison d'etre.
Well,
all I can say is that
United Airlines must be just about the worst employer on earth.
Or perhaps only the victim of vicious lies.

The two of them moved to Monterey, Calif. in the late 1970s. While his mother was out looking for work, the 9-year-old Bingham would go to the Monterey wharf after school and fish for their dinner.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93binghambiop8.asp

From The Advocate, January 22, 2002
One of Alice Hoglan's most vivid memories is from the summer of 1970, when she split from her husband and moved from Phoenix-the town in which Mark was born on May 22 of that year-to Miami. "I ran to the airport with him stuck like a football under my arm," she says.
Mark-who at the time was called Jerry, after his father-knew that day only through the stories his mom told him. But it was nevertheless one of the most significant in his life in that it marked the start of his partnership with his mother.
"We were always a team, and I depended on him way too much," Hoglan says. "It was too much emotional strain for a little boy to have a single mom thrashing about for support."
<snip>
The two of them didn't stay anywhere long those first few years in California. In addition to Redlands, they were in Riverside, before being inspired by one of Hoglan's favorite authors-John Steinbeck-and moving to Monterey. There they lived in the back of a pickup for a few weeks while Hoglan looked for work and, more than a couple of times, depended on the fish Mark could catch at the wharf for supper. "I look back on it now and say, 'Wow, that was a really cool, character-building experience,'" Hoglan says. "But it was pretty grim. There was never a lot of money, and that may have been the nadir of our existence."
http://www.markbingham.org/legend.html

17 YEARS
Her son, Mark Bingham, was one of the passengers on United Flight 93.
Initially immobilized by grief, Hoglan has tried to lose herself in work, both her job as a flight attendant with United Airlines and her advocacy for everything from airline security to gay issues.
<snip>
She said the only reason she returned to her job of 17 years as a United flight attendant was to observe firsthand the lack of airline security. What she has found makes her angry.
http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020911hoglan0911p6.asp

18 YEARS
Indeed, in the "wreckage of her life," as Hoglan says, she has found the voice of an activist. A flight attendant for 18 years with, of all airlines, United, Hoglan now canvasses the country, arguing that the greedy airlines need to get off their bottom lines and invest in more rigorous security.
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/23/hoglan/index_np.html

20 YEARS
Alice has ended her 20-year career as a flight attendant with United Airlines, after she tangled frequently with management over what she perceived were shortcomings in security measures.
http://www.affirmation.org/e-affinity/2004_06.asp

29 YEARS
Alice Hoglan’s face was ashen when she emerged from the meeting. The mother of one of the brave, doomed passengers on United Airlines Flight 93, Mark Bingham, a gay rugby player, Ms. Hoglan now knew even more vividly what her son had kept from her when he had called. Along with Todd Beamer and other brave passengers, he had helped lead a passenger revolt aboard Flight 93, which was heading toward Washington and either Congress or the White House.
"It was excruciating," she said, her lips biting off the few upbeat words she could muster. "I’m just very grateful that the people on Flight 93, the heroes who were able to act, died on their feet and doing the very best they could to preserve lives on the ground."
Ms. Hoglan, who worked 29 years as a flight attendant for United, the airline on which her son was killed, was still flying for United in the summer of 2001
http://www.911truth.org/readingroom/whole_document.php?article_id=207

33 YEARS
Divorce also can make agreements on compensation difficult. A 1971 divorce parted Jerry Bingham, 60, now a retiree in Wildwood, Fla., and Alice Hoglan, 54, of Los Gatos, Calif., who quit United Airlines last year after 33 years as a flight attendant.
http://www.911lawhelp.org/info/news/usatoday.htm

This is precisely the reason why we turn to databases.
Wayne Stroup et al.
The Social Security Administration has records of
just how long that broad worked
and where she did her thing.
And as for that crap about how
she is the mother of of only one TWIN!
And don't you DARE bring up the triplets!!!
Mark Bingham was her only son.
Check his SSDI record.
http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

Q: You've found connections between passengers who, though strangers, were linked in different ways.
A: There were connections, unbeknownst to people at the time. Mark Bingham and Todd Beamer both graduated from Los Gatos High School a year apart, and didn't know each other. Cathy Stefani was a high school classmate of Jason Dahl at Andrew Hill High School in San Jose. Jeremy Glick and Linda Gronlund lived along the same lake, Greenwood Lake, which straddles the border between New York and New Jersey. It's also interesting that at least 15 of the 40 people got on that plane at the last second, either because they decided to fly at the last second or they changed their flights at the last minute. You can draw your own conclusions about whether it was providence that drew people together or just statistical randomness that put them on that plane.
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/02/02-08longman-qa.html

This lends credence to the notion that someone accessed some database,
pulled out names
and committed some Citibank-identity-theft.
Jason Dahl, the pilot, is alleged to have been a long-time flight instructor for United. This is strange because the FAA says that Jason Dahl had no flight instructor qualifications until August 2001.
Anyhow, let us return to the here and now and eye-witness testimony.

MercutioATC,
please take another look at Post 28 and
answer the question asked in Post 38.
Is Todd Morgan Beamer REALLY the man in those pictures?
Tell me that.
It is a valid question.
And it may even be one you can answer.

[MercutioATC]

71. Doug MacMillan is pictured second and fourth in your post.

I never met Todd, so I can't personally verify what he looks like.

However, Googling Todd Beamer will give you a huge supply of pictures of him, which do match your first and third picture. Additionally, you can find out all sorts of interesting things...

Beamer attended Fresno State University in 1987 and 1988:

http://www.fresnostatenews.com/2001/September/FresnoStateResponds.htm

Wheaton College (Beamer was a 1991 grad), is building the Todd Beamer Student Center:

http://www.wheaton.edu/beamercenter/

He was an MBA graduate from DePaul University in 1993:

http://sherman.depaul.edu/media/webapp/mrNews.asp?NID=840

He lived in Cranbury, NJ before his death. They dedicated their new post office to him on May 4, 2002:


http://www.cranbury.org/gov/beamer.html

So now the conspiracy includes three colleges and the entire town of Cranbury? Those sneaky bastards!

:eyes:

[DulceDecorum]

73. No, the conspiracy includes

a lot of errors
and an eyewitness who could not readily distinguish MacMillian from the line-up
without several prompts
and a time lapse of seven or so days.
You may however, be forgiven for mistaking MacMillian for Beamer.

Many are those who intitally believed that Nick Berg actually had a company called Prometheus Towers or Prometheus Methods Tower Services.
You remember Nick,
the person whose beheading video turned up in Canada on MONDAY,
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/05/1...
which is one whole day BEFORE
the video was posted on the "Islamist" website on TUESDAY.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/05/13/45751...

I wonder if Maury would consent to do
a "Who's your Daddy?" show with those Baby Beamers......

[Bolo Boffin]

74. Dulce, we've already answered this

It's the time zone thing, remember? It can be Tuesday in the Middle East while it remains Monday in Canada. There's nothing mysterious or sinister about it at all.

[MercutioATC]

75. Who couldn't "readily distinguish" MacMillan?

I had no problem at all.

As I recall, YOU were the one who inferred (or stated) that Beamer didn't really exist because he wasn't in one of your databases. I'd be interested in your explanation of the behavior of the colleges and town in my post. Why are they claiming they had ties to him if he didn't exist?