Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_alan_mil_080112_twenty_five_u_s__mil.htm


Official Account of 9/11: “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce”

January 14, 2008 – Twenty-five former U.S. military officers have severely criticized the official account of 9/11 and called for a new investigation. They include former commander of U.S. Army Intelligence, Major General Albert Stubblebine, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Col. Ronald D. Ray, two former staff members of the Director of the National Security Agency; Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, and Major John M. Newman, PhD, and many others. They are among the rapidly growing number of military and intelligence service veterans, scientists, engineers, and architects challenging the government’s story. The officers’ statements appear below, listed alphabetically.


Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD “A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible,” said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret). <1> With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.

“There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up,” continued Col. Bowman. “Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible. Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.”
Regarding the failure of NORAD to intercept the four hijacked planes on 9/11, Col. Bowman said, “I'm an old interceptor pilot. I know the drill. I've done it. I know how long it takes. I know the rules. … Critics of the government story on 9/11 have said: ‘Well, they knew about this, and they did nothing’. That's not true. If our government had done nothing that day and let normal procedure be followed, those planes, wherever they were, would have been intercepted, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.” <2>




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2682303

[nebula]

1. Add them to the list

of hundreds if not thousands of whistleblowers whom the MSM will promptly ignore.

[whatchamacallit]

2. And to the list of "idiots", "lunatics", and "liars"

the OCTers will promptly castigate.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flatulo]

12. Ignore WHAT? They've proffered no theory as to what really happened.

"Hogwash" is not a rebuttal.

Edit spelling

[philb]

92. Actually they have expressed opinions on what did not happen in official story

and given credible reasons with support for their case.
Some of them have given talks with much more detail than shown here, Dr. Bowman for example.

[salvorhardin]

15. I don't know about the others on that list but...

Stubblebine is certainly an idiot and possibly a lunatic. Though I prefer to think of him as Richard Dawkins refers to him in The God Delusion -- comic relief.

[whatchamacallit]

20. Well, since the ultimate idiot-lunatic-liar (Bush) supports the official theory

that should be enough to invalidate the OCT.

[SDuderstadt]

21. I understand Hitler drank milk...

Does that mean we should have banned milk because Hitler liked it so it must have been bad? Your post is illogical and I despise Bush.

[whatchamacallit]

22. It was salvorhardin who was playing the 'damned by association' card

I simply pointed out that anyone can play that useless game. Do me a favor and get a clue.

[SDuderstadt]

24. Here's your first clue...

Salvorhardin is not playing "damned by association". He is impeaching the credibility of one person on the list, Stubblebine. It's right in his headline, "I don't know about the others on that list but...". Please show me where he says anything like, "well, you can't believe Stubblebine, so you can't trust any of the others". Hint: He didn't. What in the phrase "I don't know.." confuses you?

[whatchamacallit]

25. Bullshit. What's the point of tugging at the weak link if not to break the chain?

We all know it's a favorite tactic of OCTists to marginalize a group by focusing on one easy target.

[SDuderstadt]

28. What baloney

As I said before, he's impeaching Stubblebine's credibility and he says nothing about the others. As far as your statement below:

"We all know it's a favorite tactic of OCTists to marginalize a group by focusing on one easy target."

WE do? Who's we? Everyone? And, you're not denying that CT's do the exact same thing, are you? It's pathetic to watch you guys trash anyone and everyone you believe to be part of the "official story", especially when many of them are dedicated public servants (first responders, fire chiefs) whom we should be able to take at their word. I'm not saying they cannot be wrong, but it's really something to watch the CT community smear them as liars, paid off or too afraid to speak the truth.

[whatchamacallit]

29. Are you claiming it isn't done in virtually every post about prominent skeptics?

Maybe you should check. Anyway, I don't know about others, but I defy you to show me a post where I trash a first responder or fire chief. This is a lame exchange.

[SDuderstadt]

30. Yeah, I am

It's no more valid to claim it's done "in virtually every post about prominent skeptics", then it is for you to remotely claim I am accusing you of trashing a first responder or a chief when I am talking about the CT community in GENERAL. If I want to accuse YOU of something, I'll do it directly. If you think the exchange is lame, I invite you to drop out of it.

[whatchamacallit]

32. Your avatar has got me curious

In your opinion who killed JFK?

[SDuderstadt]

34. Lee Harvey Oswald

Read "Reclaiming History:The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy" by Vincent Bugliosi.

[whatchamacallit]

35. I see...

Long live the Warren Commission, long live the 911 Commission, long live the Bush Administration...

[SDuderstadt]

36. No

I despise the Bush administration. The Warren Commission got it essentially right. I don't suppose you've actually read the Warren Commission Report, have you? I read (and still have) a number of JFK assassination conspiracy books but later read "Case Closed" and Bugliosi's book and concluded, on the basis of evidence that, as hard as it is to believe, a nobody like Oswald killed JFK.

As far as the 9/11 Commission, it's obvious there were flaws in many respects, but that hardly proves LIHOP or MIHOP. If you want serious debate based upon actual evidence, fine. If you are, instead, interested in merely sneeringly implying I am some sort of dupe or shill for the Bushies over and over, get lost. Please stop implying I, in any way, support the Bush Administration, okay?

[whatchamacallit]

37. Sure SDude sure, no problem n/t

[seemslikeadream]

38. uh the PDB

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0409041pdb1.html
APRIL 10--Under pressure from the September 11 commission, the White House today declassified and released an intelligence digest given to President George W. Bush weeks before the 2001 terrorist attacks. The confidential President's Daily Brief (PDB) for August 6, 2001 contained a two-page section entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US," and refers to possible hijacking attempts by Osama bin Laden disciples and the existence of about 70 FBI investigations into alleged al-Qaeda cells operating within the United States. The August 6 PDB, an excerpt from which you'll find below, was presented to Bush while he vacationed at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The digest is prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency, an official from which briefs the president on the report's contents. While Bush critics have described the August 6 PDB as a warning of an impending al-Qaeda attack, Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser, testified Thursday that the document contained "historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information." (2 pages)

[SDuderstadt]

39. I haven't got the foggiest notion...

what you're responding to.

[seemslikeadream]

42. What did georgie do after he read that PDB?

[SDuderstadt]

46. Well...

It, by itself, does not prove LIHOP, if that's what you're getting at. However, at the very least, it does demonstrate that Bush is an idiot who should never have been elected...wait, I mean appointed...in 2000. But without corroborating evidence that shows that Bush deliberately let 9/11 happen, that's about all we've got, as if that's bad enough in its own right. In order to embrace LIHOP without something else, one would have to believe that Bush could have gauged the response to a national catastrophe as one that could only favor him, when it could easily have sunk his presidency. Look where he is today. Reviled not only at home, but around the world.

Imagine that Gore would have ultimately prevailed in 2000 and, thus, received that PDB. Let's say he did everything he could, but 9/11 happened anyhow. Let's also say that, for national security reasons, he could not disclose some of the actions he had taken (I'm not implying Gore would do anything illegal...unlike W, he has respect for the constitution). Under the exact same circumstances that occurred on 9/11, would you allege LIHOP? I certainly wouldn't.

I, like even many of you, was suspicious after 9/11, but as the evidence comes out, the case for LIHOP just isn't there. If and when that evidence presents itself, I'll be the first one to join up. But, you just don't have it.

[seemslikeadream]

47. Did you happen to hear about the CIA destroying some videos?

I will ask you the same question I posted down thread


Could you go through a few of these and let me know when it was you discovered the truth, the crime of the century will take awhile to investigate and prove, no doubt.



The gagging of Sibel Edmonds
The outing of Valerie Plame
The war in Iraq
COLLUSION: INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE AND THE WAR ON TERROR.
Iran/Contra - George Bush Sr.
BCCI
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
IBM and the Holocaust
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project
The Catholic Church covering up the pedophila by priests
Enron
Watergate
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Vietnam and Other American Fantasies (Culture, Politics, and the Cold War)
Live American POWs in Vietnam
Internal Combustion
philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States
"Fixing" of intelligence around the desire to invade Iraq --- October Surprise
"Black Box Voting" and computer hacking of elections -- See: VOTESCAM
Operation Gladio
MK-ultra.
COINTELPRO: The FBI's War on Black America
Watergate -- including "black bag jobs" and "The Huston Plan"
Operation Paperclip
CIA coups on democratically elected leaders all around the world ---
CIA-backed death squads in El Salvado
Operation Northwoods
Savings & Loan Theft and Embezzlements
The Drug War is also an obvious conspiracy
CIA-Contra-Crack Cocaine connection
Operation Phoenix, torture program in Vietnam
GULF WAR ILLNESS
Control Room -- Propaganda of the Iraq War
Watergate
The Other Side: An Interview with William Blum
1990 Testimony of Nayirah:
The Mafia
The Dreyfus Affair
Echelon
Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial aircraft before 9/11
Corporatocracy
Hitler really was out to exterminate Jews.
Bernard Ebbers convicted of fraud and conspiracy 180 billion dollar loss to investors.
Secret CIA Prisons
Secret Bombing of Cambodia
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation PBSUCCESS
Operation Ajax
General Motors streetcar conspiracy
De Beers was charged by the United States Justice Department with Sherman Antitrust Act
Indonesian occupation of East Timor
USS LIBERTY
Suppressing Sarkhan
London Police Found Guilty of Health and Safety Failures in Brazilian's Shooting Death
Brzezinski What's most important to the history of the world the Taliban or collapse of SovietEmpire
Curveball REVEALED!!
Subpoenaed: Rice, Hadley et al. in espionage case



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVPhVV1dYd0

Now they're planning the crime of the century
Well what will it be?
Read all about their schemes and adventuring
It's well worth a fee
So roll up and see
And they rape the universe
How they've gone from bad to worse
Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see.
But that's no right - oh no, what's the story?
There's you and there's me
That can't be right

[SDuderstadt]

48. I'm not going to respond to your "data dump"

The point is you don't have proof of LIHOP, pure and simple. I'll take a stab at the first one, though. How does the CIA's illegal action in destroying the interrogation tapes in any way prove LIHOP? Your overall argument seems to be there have been actual conspiracies uncovered, therefore I don't have to prove LIHOP. For whatever it's worth, the "I'll bombard them with so much data they'll never be able to respond, thus I'll win by default" gambit is really foolish.

[seemslikeadream]

49. Quit putting words in my mouth, thank you

And if you think that is a data dump, you don't know me very well! :rofl:

Come on just a couple?

Tuskegee Syphilis Study
IBM and the Holocaust
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project

[SDuderstadt]

50. What does this have to do with what we were discussing?

When you figure it out, let me know.

[seemslikeadream]

51. I'm talking about the Coincidence Theory

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/seemslikeadream



They Thought They Were Free - Read by Dave Emory

The Germans, 1933-45

Excerpt from pages 166-73 of "They Thought They Were Free" First published in 1955

By Milton Mayer

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

....

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, THE SHOCK DOCTRINE will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’



Michael Parenti - Terrorism, Globalism & Conspiracy

"Coincidence Theory: By shear chance things just happen repeatedly and coincidentally to benefit their interests without any conscious connivance by them, which is most uncanny. There is also: Stupidity Theory, Innocence Theory, Momentary Aberration Theory, Incompetence Theory, Unintended Consequences Theory and Innocent Cultural Proclivities Theory."

- Michael Parenti

[SDuderstadt]

52. And I'm not

When you develop hard evidence that 9/11 was LIHOP, I'm all ears.

[seemslikeadream]

53. When you ears are here you may miss something

[SDuderstadt]

54. In other words....

YOU can't come up with hard evidence, so MY head must be in the sand. Pathetic. Why can't you simply come up with hard evidence and quit trying to deflect?

[seemslikeadream]

55. I was trying to explain to you it takes time sweetie, time

I gave you examples, a data dump of examples, of conspiracy theories that were, after many years, to be true.

[SDuderstadt]

56. In other words...

you have NO hard evidence, yet you just "know" it's true. Pathetic.

[seemslikeadream]

57. I knew the Gulf of Tonkin incident was bullshit a long time ago

Were you surfing the net being pathetic?

[SDuderstadt]

61. Look, you're making my point

No one is talking about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution here, except for people who are trying to divert attention away from their own weak arguments. The problem here is that, in the absence of evidence, you are beginning with the conclusion and working backwards frantically trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion. I shouldn't have to explain how that assaults Logic.

What compounds the problem is that when skeptics like myself point out the obvious logical errors, not to mention the lack of evidence, we're quickly accused of having our heads in the sand or, worse yet, being shills for W (whom I despise). When pressed for proof of your claim, you reply with things like "it takes time". You're literally admitting my premise in doing so, to wit, you're literally conceding you have no hard evidence but you've concluded 9/11 was an inside job nonetheless. Upon what basis? The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution? Are you arguing that because something could happen and something similar has happened before, that proves your claim must be true? I have never said that 9/11 could not have been an "inside job", I'm simply not going to embrace such a conclusion without some convincing evidence.

I have often heard from CT's that the reason they cannot produce the evidence is because they haven't had enough time, they lack the financial resources needed or the evidence they need has never been declassified. Frankly, those all sound like rationalizations to me, without further specifics. If what you claim is true, wouldn't that be the story of the century...no, wait...make that the story of all time? If that's true, why isn't 6 years enough time to come up with one piece of hard evidence that stands up to scrutiny? Why doesn't the ASCE blow this thing wide open? What evidence needs to be declassified? Where is some sort of coherent alternative hypothesis that explains what happened on 9/11. Just because the CT community finds supposition and speculation to be self-satisfying, doesn't mean the rest of us do. Don't you guys advocate questioning everything? Well, so do we. When you develop hard evidence that withstands close scrutiny, as I proclaimed earlier, I'm all ears.

[seemslikeadream]

64. stay in bed keep the covers over your head

[SDuderstadt]

65. More diversion...

instead of producing real evidence, you just say silly things like "stay in bed keep the covers over your head". Man, now that is convincing although what would REALLY be convincing is actual evidence of your claim and not more "You'll be sorry" silliness.

Simple question: Where is your proof?

[seemslikeadream]

67. I wonder

oh never mind

[SDuderstadt]

68. You just did it again...

what is your post supposed to mean? You wonder what????

[seemslikeadream]

69. "Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts."

Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts

William S. Burroughs





http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Article/William_S._Burroughs_20th_Century_Gnostic.html

In 1984, in Boulder, Colorado, an interviewer asked William S. Burroughs (1914-1997), “What religious persuasion would you consider yourself?” Without hesitating, Burroughs replied, “Gnostic, or a Manichean.”

Burroughs’s vision of a Utopian autonomous zone could be seen as a metaphor for the Gnostic concept of “the pneuma,” an infinitesimally small fragment of the divine that exists in all human beings. <...>

In Burroughs’s world, evil disguises itself as good and good disguises itself as evil. The Archons are Christians and politicians and “jus’ good folk.” The Gnostics are roving bands of criminals and thieves known only to themselves as “the Johnsons.” The visionaries, the ones who have attained genuine gnosis (i.e., “knowledge”) can see through the illusions forged by control, identify the face of the enemy, and from that point begin the quest for true freedom.

These visionaries regularly employ unorthodox and seemingly “insane” methods to overthrow the hypnotic bonds of control: opiates, orgone energy, tape recorders that are used to cut up, analyse, and reconfigure the endless barrage of shallow mass media used to keep the masses docile, astral travel through time and space, hermetic magic, telepathy, etc. These are the tools of the twentieth century Gnostic in Burroughs’s revitalised Libertatia.

The goal of these latter day Gnostics is to establish an autonomous zone, a physical approximation of the pneuma, while having as much fun as possible trying to “wise up the marks,” a paraphrase of a key sentence in the third chapter of his 1964 novel Nova Express: “And you can see the marks are wising up, standing around in sullen groups and that mutter gets louder and louder.”

The Archons are represented on Earth by parasite-infected control-freaks Burroughs aptly calls “the shits”: “…my contention is that evil is quite literally a virus parasite occupying a certain brain area which we may term the RIGHT centre. The mark of a basic shit is that he has to be right.” The shits will use all the power they have on this planet in order to prevent the Johnsons from waking up the marks.


–Robert Guffey




Magic, in light of modern physics, quantum theory and probability theory is now approaching science. We hope that a result of this will be a synthesis so that science will become more magical and magic more scientific.

William S. Burroughs

[SDuderstadt]

72. I'm not sure we're getting anywhere...

but exactly what facts are you missing??

[salvorhardin]

41. No, I was just pointing out that Stubblebine is an idiot

Seriously, the guy is nuts. I have qualms about some of the other people on that list but c'est la vie. Stubblebine is a whole other order of crazy, but hey, if you want to put your trust in a guy who thought he could walk through walls (among other things) then be my guest.

[whatchamacallit]

43. Yeah, definitely not one to hitch your wagon to

Still, it seems pretty much all skeptics, even the ones who can't walk through walls, get a beat-down in the dungeon.

[seemslikeadream]

44. well there's a guy in the White House that God talks to

[whatchamacallit]

45. Oh yeah "The God Whisperer"

It really DOES seem like a dream, doesn't it SLAD?

[mrgerbik]

3. nice ty slad

Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret).

Regarding the failure of NORAD to intercept the four hijacked planes on 9/11, Col. Bowman said, “I'm an old interceptor pilot. I know the drill. I've done it. I know how long it takes. I know the rules. … Critics of the government story on 9/11 have said: ‘Well, they knew about this, and they did nothing’. That's not true. If our government had done nothing that day and let normal procedure be followed, those planes, wherever they were, would have been intercepted, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.”

Major Jon I. Fox

Commander Kolstad is especially critical of the account of American Airlines Flight 77 that allegedly crashed into the Pentagon. He says, “At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying. I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757’s and 767’s and I could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.”

Capt. Daniel Davis

"As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there.”

Commander Ted Muga, U.S. Navy (ret)

“Commercial airplanes are very, very complex pieces of machines. And they're designed for two pilots up there, not just two amateur pilots, but two qualified commercial pilots up there. And to think that you're going to get an amateur up into the cockpit and fly, much less navigate, it to a designated target, the probability is so low, that it's bordering on impossible.”

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret)

“In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident,”

Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS, U.S. Air Force (ret)

“After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government. It is now time to take our country back,”

Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force

“I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist, to train on a 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding its design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding -- pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's. And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky. I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it.”

'nuff said

[Grateful for Hope]

5. Very interesting

Thank you, SLaD.

[Twist_U_Up]

6. And even then, some still won't believe it. Programming issues...nt

[mrgerbik]

7. Wheres the OCT take on this? nt

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quickesst]

11. I'm curious....

"Wheres the OCT take on this? nt"

Could you please give a short statement on exactly what this says about mrgerbik? We know that "oct" is pretty much the standard reference for those who think as you do, just as "troofers" is pretty much accepted by the oct in reference to those who side with the truth movement. The question itself must be your concern, and my curiosity begged me to ask, What's wrong with the question, it's been asked many times by both sides, and what does it say about his character, which would be telling as to the character of many DUers, on both sides of the fence. So, what's wrong with asking someone their take on a subject? Thanks.
quickesst

[wildbilln864]

26. indeed bolobofin...

what does it say about mrgerbik's character? :shrug: Please clarify.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. Thanks for posting...

...the more people speaking out, the better.

[Flatulo]

10. This is a classic 'appeal to authority' which is supposedly a logical

fallacy. But the credentials of these folks are impressive. Still, their stories amount to no more than opinions. None have offered compelling proof of anything other than what they feel are unlikely coincidences.

This piece seems to me to be the all usual CT talking points, with an improved pedigree of the messengers. Where is the single piece of proof - proof that would meet the standards of an American court - that agents of the government carried out the 9/11 attacks? Where is the testimony of someone who knew? Where is the whistleblower? Where is the memo or the recorded phone call? Where are all the bodies?

Why are no mainstream investigative journalists interested in the opinions of these people? Don't chalk it up to Corporate Media Conspiracy. Of the tens of thousands of journalists in the world, they cannot ALL be in fear of reporting the 'truth'. It is just a statistical impossibility. This is the story of the millenium. Journalists are not cowards - over 200 have been killed in Iraq. If 9/11 Truth had real legs, the story would get out of the internets and into the mainstream.

Just my worthless $.02...

[quickesst]

13. Huh?

"But the credentials of these folks are impressive. Still, their stories amount to no more than opinions."

So, if I need a plumber's opinion on my plumbing problems, and using your logic, I could call an electrician, and get the same level of competent, or incompetent reccommendations to fix the problem, after all, the plumbers experience only translates into an opinion, of which the electrician would have his own also. Which one would you trust for the correct diagnosis of the plumbing problem? Some things you just can't marginalize, and the combined years of experience, and education of these patriots cannot be dismissed as mere "opinion". In order for your opinion to be worth anything, you're own experiences should at least rival, or surpass the experieces of this group. Till then, your last statement is apt. Thanks.
quickesst

[Flatulo]

14. From dictionary.com

Your analogy is completely facile and is based on your lack of understanding of a word.

Opinion

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

And thanks for the snide comment at the end of your post. Nice touch.

[quickesst]

16. Actually......

your attempt at a reply says absolutely nothing as far as my statement goes. And second: "And thanks for the snide comment at the end of your post. Nice touch." I didn't make the statement, you did. I was simply agreeing with your assessment. Thanks.
quckesst

On edit: What you're saying is that experience has no bearing on the opinions expressed by any of these military veterans. Their opinions are worth no more than a man on the street who has no experience in the military. Got it. One of the things I find most amusing, is the fake indignence of the oct when the tables are turned. Priceless. OK, srike priceless. That was snide. Thanks.

[Flatulo]

18. Please re-read my post...

> What you're saying is that experience has no bearing on the opinions expressed by any of these military
> veterans. Their opinions are worth no more than a man on the street who has no experience in the military.

I did not say this, nor have I expressed the slightest indignation. I said that they were expressing their opinion, but have offered no demonstrably provable explanations for what happened on 9/11. All they have done is regurgitate the usual CT talking points that the OCT is bullshit.

I call this the 'My Cousin Vinny' rebuttal.

Bullshit compared to what? What is the Truth? No one can prove anything.

[mrgerbik]

59. "All they have done is regurgitate the usual CT talking points that the OCT is bullshit."

How so? You don't think these people came to their own opinions through their own faculties (through information)? Why?? Because they don't agree with you?

Where the CT camp comes to many varied conclusions because of dissatisfaction with the blatant holes & inconsistencies of the official spoon fed 'truth', the OCT camp has the comfortable holy cannon of NIST, FEMA, 9/11 Commission to reference. So really, who is doing the regurgitating?

(pre-reply: because NIST & FEMA hold the truth, and we don't... we know --- the officials in this matter cannot possibly be incorrect or dishonest - that is an impossibility)

[Flatulo]

62. Can you find one tangible theory in the lot for what happened? nt

That's what I mean when I say 'regurgitated'. No new information, just new messengers.

I am not impuning their integrity in any way when I say that they bring nothing new to the debate. I'm sure they're sincere in their belief that the OCT is BS.

[mrgerbik]

60. the truth will only come, IMO,

with a vigorous shaking off of the rust and grime that has collected on the pillars of the often offish, holier-then-thou academic culture. The ego should always remain respectfully minimal in the long and proper quest for knowledge and truth.

You are right thou, nobody can prove anything, (ironically) including the truth - but the least we can do is orient our energy and focus in the general direction that best promotes our understanding of it. I just don't see this honesty from our handlers...

I guess really its one thing to be told the truth and another to discover it. Keep on keepin' on :)

[Flatulo]

70. Truth is a slippery thing when not backed up with objective data. nt

One thing all religions have in common is the claim to be the sole keeper of the Truth.

That alone should set off warning flags.

I agree that some academics have taken on the role of Priest, which is why peer-review is so important. And sadly lacking in the Truth movement.

[SDuderstadt]

74. Not just sadly....

but totally.

[quickesst]

63. Goes both ways..

"I did not say this, nor have I expressed the slightest indignation. I said that they were expressing their opinion, but have offered no demonstrably provable explanations for what happened on 9/11. All they have done is regurgitate the usual CT(OCT) talking points that the OCT(CT) is bullshit" (Parenthesis mine)

Your statement can apply to those on both sides of the issue. I'm sure you'll disagree, but the fact that this debate has been, and continues to be a hot topic of debate proves it. Had either side of the issue been able to prove their claims, we wouldn't be having this conversation, and this forum would no longer exist. Thanks.
quickesst

[Flatulo]

66. The main problem I have with the Truth movement...

I think a definition of 'truth' is in order. I would define it as verifiable, repeatable phenomenon based on objective observations, such as scientific measurement.

We all agree that the theory of gravitational attraction is true - not many people would be skeptical enough to test it by dropping a hammer on their head.

We often back into the truth by creating a mathematical model and then verifying the model to some degree of accuracy through measurement and observation.

Sometimes the truth is not 100% complete. For example, Isaac Newton derived formulae that described how bodies accelerate and are attracted to each other. His work was valid for 400 years or so until we discovered that things that are very massive or move very quickly do not quite obey his laws. Einstein came along and fixed the holes in Newton's work. Quantum mechanics came later and addressed what Einstein could not explain. And so on.

The problem I have with the Truth movement is that they seem to be largely uninterested in uncovering the truth. The way to discover the truth, as explained above, is to develop a theory and then test the theory to see where it breaks, again based on objective verifiable observations.

I've seen a lot of smearing of the NIST and FEMA reports because they do not answer every single question that every single person has about the events of 9/11. But they do make the most compelling case available for what happened to towers 1 and 2 up to collapse initiation. As time passes, more complete models will be created and compared to what we know about the collapses. This is how science works. There is nothing wrong with tweaking the model to match the measured outcome, as many Truthers suggest.

The Truth movement has yet to advance a theory of collapse that is in any way verifiable by comparing to the actual outcome. If it was CD, then produce a mathematical model of it. If it was nukes, then lets see the data.

I for one will cast my lot, until the data to the contrary becomes more compelling, with the scientists and engineers who have produced mathematical models of the impacts and collapse initiations.

Up until now, the Truth movement seems to me to be powered mostly by a pathological loathing of the Bush administration. The Truth movement, as SDuderstat has mentioned, is starting with the conclusion - and then neglecting to follow up with a model that would get one to that conclusion.

[BeachBaby]

17. Flatulo....

I hear ya on the journalism issue. Everytime I see KO do one of his rant commentaries about BushCo, there's a part of me that thinks "This is it! He's gonna blow this out of the water!"

And then I remember who he works for.

I have friends in both Canada and the UK. Both of them have told me, several times now, that their own journalists have touched upon this topic. And my friends are amazed that our own have not.

I'm not amazed, because I know who our journalists work for.

I also understand when you say that this can't be a Corporate Media Conspiracy; then again, I also remember who owns the networks. But if you look around the internet, you will find many articles written by columnists (some American, some not) who suggest (sometimes very strongly) that Americans have "dumbed down" so much that they can't see what's right in front of them.

I grew up in a very military family; I also have relatives and a couple friends who work in the intestines of our defense depts and national security depts. I know that they sign contracts - oaths, if you will - that promise they will do ONLY their job, which is to do what they're told. They are not to discuss it with outsiders. And they are willing to do this "in the best interests of national security".

There ARE people who have "come out" about 9/11 - if you look around the net, you will find articles and interviews (from "Vanity Fair" "Rolling Stone") of people who are former White House aides and officials who couldn't stomach the people they worked for. Some of them have left the US, and some are brave enough to hang around. When I look at these people and read what they have to say, I am awed by their bravery.

Now we have former military officers and higher-uppers who are "coming out" and saying straight-up that the report is bullshit. We have congressmen who are pushing for an independent investigation. We have celebrities who, because of their abilities to get attention, are coordinating an effort to get real answers.

I never expected the truth to come out overnight. In the grand scheme of things, 9/11 happened yesterday. And I think that little by little, we're getting there.

[Flatulo]

19. About that Corporate media...

> I'm not amazed, because I know who our journalists work for.

They work for corporations. I prefer this to the Pravda/Tass model, where the State controlled all information.

If a journalist could prove that 9/11 was an inside job, it would be the story of the millenium. Books, movies, Pulitzer prizes, etc. Woodward and Bernstein brought down a sitting president.

The reason why 9/11 Truth has not caught the attention of mainstream America is not because Brittany Spears' crotch is more interesting. It is because journalistic standards have not been met in any of the CTs that have been put forth.

[BeachBaby]

23. Agreed. They work for corporations.....

but when someone, like myself, looks at each of these corporations and who they support politically, it's no longer simply "corporate owned media".

All it says to me is that our MSM is government controlled, by proxy.

[Flatulo]

27. It depends where you're standing...

While Fox News Channel certainly presents a rightward bias in most issues, I do not see this same bias in the other networks (CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS). I think on balance the non-Fox outlets are pretty balanced.

Most arguments on DU that castigate the RW media are based on strongly left-wing viewpoints.

But then, I'm very conservative by DU standards, so my worldview is anchored approximately in the middle of the political spectrum. Believe it or not, the whole right side of the spectrum believes that the media has a very strong leftward bias. They believe this just as strongly as you may believe that the media is right-leaning.

That's why it is so important to gather objective data when discussing politically charged issues. Things like science and engineering are pretty exact and do not occupy a position on the political spectrum. Steel loses its strength when heated. Airliners traveling at 500 MPH have kinetic energy equivalent to significant percentages of a Hiroshima-sized bomb. Fuel loads in said airliners posess yet another order-of-magnitude more energy. The hundreds of scientists and engineers who contributed to things like the NIST and FEMA reports and Purdue FEA simulations have provided the most objective data that we have to interpret the physical events of that day.

When the Truth movement can produce the kind of science that the OCT has produced, then I will review it on its own merits.

[seatnineb]

31. U R right...your opinion is worthless n/t

[Flatulo]

40. You're welcome to believe that.

Your opinion, however, is somewhat worse than worthless, because of the intellectual dishonesty and bile that oozes from your posts. You're posts here have done wonders to convince me that the truth movement will have to purge the lunatics and haters from its ranks before anyone will take the sane people seriously.

I have a lot of respect and interest in the posts of many Truthers (JackRiddler, SLAD, Wildbill, Noise, and a few others come to mind), but you sir do more harm than good to the movement you champion.

[seatnineb]

58. R U actually describing yourself...and your posts I think U R n/t.

[seemslikeadream]

33. Did you happen to hear about the CIA destroying some videos?

Could you go through a few of these and let me know when it was you discovered the truth



The gagging of Sibel Edmonds
The outing of Valerie Plame
The war in Iraq
COLLUSION: INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE AND THE WAR ON TERROR.
Iran/Contra - George Bush Sr.
BCCI
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
IBM and the Holocaust
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project
The Catholic Church covering up the pedophila by priests
Enron
Watergate
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Vietnam and Other American Fantasies (Culture, Politics, and the Cold War)
Live American POWs in Vietnam
Internal Combustion
philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States
"Fixing" of intelligence around the desire to invade Iraq --- October Surprise
"Black Box Voting" and computer hacking of elections -- See: VOTESCAM
Operation Gladio
MK-ultra.
COINTELPRO: The FBI's War on Black America
Watergate -- including "black bag jobs" and "The Huston Plan"
Operation Paperclip
CIA coups on democratically elected leaders all around the world ---
CIA-backed death squads in El Salvado
Operation Northwoods
Savings & Loan Theft and Embezzlements
The Drug War is also an obvious conspiracy
CIA-Contra-Crack Cocaine connection
Operation Phoenix, torture program in Vietnam
GULF WAR ILLNESS
Control Room -- Propaganda of the Iraq War
Watergate
The Other Side: An Interview with William Blum
1990 Testimony of Nayirah:
The Mafia
The Dreyfus Affair
Echelon
Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial aircraft before 9/11
Corporatocracy
Hitler really was out to exterminate Jews.
Bernard Ebbers convicted of fraud and conspiracy 180 billion dollar loss to investors.
Secret CIA Prisons
Secret Bombing of Cambodia
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation PBSUCCESS
Operation Ajax
General Motors streetcar conspiracy
De Beers was charged by the United States Justice Department with Sherman Antitrust Act
Indonesian occupation of East Timor
USS LIBERTY
Suppressing Sarkhan
London Police Found Guilty of Health and Safety Failures in Brazilian's Shooting Death
Brzezinski What's most important to the history of the world the Taliban or collapse of SovietEmpire
Curveball REVEALED!!
Subpoenaed: Rice, Hadley et al. in espionage case

[Ghost in the Machine]

71. another "Huh?"

Why are no mainstream investigative journalists interested in the opinions of these people? Don't chalk it up to Corporate Media Conspiracy. Of the tens of thousands of journalists in the world, they cannot ALL be in fear of reporting the 'truth'. It is just a statistical impossibility. This is the story of the millenium. Journalists are not cowards - over 200 have been killed in Iraq. If 9/11 Truth had real legs, the story would get out of the internets and into the mainstream.

You do realize that journalists don't dictate or decide what gets published and what doesn't, right?? Just asking....

Journalists all across the country could have been told by their editors that "*no* stories on 9-11 & possible conspiracy theories will be published, so don't waste your time on any of it"...

I'm not saying they *have* been told this, just that they *could* have been told this...

[SDuderstadt]

73. They could also have been told...

"go for it" and didn't find anything.

[Ghost in the Machine]

75. well yes, they very well *could* have been told that, but wouldn't you think

that *those* stories would be published to silence the truth movement once and for all? Hundreds of journalists writing stories that they investigated and found nothing would have a very chilling effect on the movement, would it not??

Try to think your own replies all the way through next time...

Thanks...

[SDuderstadt]

76. You may not have noticed this, but....

all that probably shows is they think the "truth" movement is as silly as the rest of us do.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost in the Machine]

78. You're still not thinking it all the way through, are you?

If there were hundreds of journalists and reporters who could silence the truth movememnt once and for all, that's *all* we would be reading about. We wouldn't be dealing with silence, obstruction and/or ridicule. They would be screaming it from the rooftops and it would be all over the papers and in the news...

If you can't understand that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

[hack89]

79. Why do you assume the truth movement is important enough

for the MSM to bother with? The media most likely thinks of the truth movement like the rest of the US public - they are not even aware of it. Step away from your tiny corner of the internet and you will discover you are a truly tiny majority.

[Ghost in the Machine]

81. First off, I'm not the one who made this statement:

Why are no mainstream investigative journalists interested in the opinions of these people? Don't chalk it up to Corporate Media Conspiracy. Of the tens of thousands of journalists in the world, they cannot ALL be in fear of reporting the 'truth'. It is just a statistical impossibility. This is the story of the millenium. Journalists are not cowards - over 200 have been killed in Iraq. If 9/11 Truth had real legs, the story would get out of the internets and into the mainstream.

I only responded to it in what I thought was a rational manner with a plausible reply.

Secondly, if you don't think the worst terrorist attack to ever hit our soil is worthy of the MSM investigating fully, completely and truthfully, why do you spend your time here trying to shoot down something you see as a tiny minority??

edited: to spell "rational" correctly..

[hack89]

83. I come here because I enjoy the give and take.

I am under no illusion that anything that happens here amounts to a hill of beans in the big scheme of things. When I want to positively change things around me, I step away from the computer and deal with people face to face.

[Ghost in the Machine]

84. That's respectable.. I'm pretty much the same way..

I like looking at both sides of the issue, and i happen to agree with both sides of this issue in some respects..

I don't question the planes hitting the towers, but i do have a nagging doubt about flight 77 and the pentagon... I've also got nagging doubts as to how and why building 7 fell, especially with the BBC broadcaster reporting that it had collapsed 20(?) minutes before it did...

I don't 100% believe the official story, nor do I 100% believe the conspiracies... it does make for some entertaining reading though...

:hi:

[SDuderstadt]

80. You're assuming....

they even notice you.

[Ghost in the Machine]

82. You're assuming....

that I even care...

You can answer the same question... why do you send all of your time trying to shoot down or silence the movement if it's so "radical fringe" and a "small minority not worthy of the MSM's time and/or efforts?

[SDuderstadt]

85. Hyperbole?

"why do you s(p)end all of your time trying to shoot down or silence the movement if it's so "radical fringe" and a "small minority not worthy of the MSM's time and/or efforts?


Umm, I don't.

[Ghost in the Machine]

86. ummmm....

ok... whatever you say...

[SDuderstadt]

87. Look at our relative post counts....

duhhhhhhhh

[Ghost in the Machine]

88. and in the last year, the majority of your posts have been in the 9-11 forum,

with GD coming in 2nd place, a small percentage in GDP and nothing in the lounge...

I don't worry about post counts, nor should you. I joined up to participate and 90% of *my* posts are in GD... I also post in the lounge on occasion, in the ebay group, the homeschoolers group and the DU Marketplace.. I also donate during the drives and give the donor stars (most times anonymously) to others who may not have them otherwise...

So what's your point?

[SDuderstadt]

89. I don't know, what yours?

let me make sure I get this straight. You "don't worry about post counts" but you researched the breakdown of my posts last year and you pointed out that " 90% of *my* posts are in GD". Were you trying to be ironic or is it just my imagination? If it makes you feel better, I will try to get around DU more. I feel soooo ashamed.

[seemslikeadream]

90. Well ya been here 5 YEARS!

You should get out of the dungeon more often.

[SDuderstadt]

93. You're assuming....

that I don't read other forums yet, for whatever reason, just don't post. What do you care?

[Ghost in the Machine]

95. Yes, I looked since YOU brought the subject up

Please try to keep up and follow along in the future...


Thanks...

[Flatulo]

91. There are lots of freelance journalists...

Do you really believe that a Rolling Stone editor would not run an impeccably researched expose of the US government murdering 3000 of its own citizens?

If you believe this, I just don't know what to say to you.

What about David Ray Griffin? How on earth did he get his works published?

[Ghost in the Machine]

96. just answer the question, that's all....

You do realize that journalists don't dictate what stories and/or reports that paper or magazine publishes, right??

Maybe you should go back and read the initial reply over again and get a better understanding of what I said....

Yes, I believe Rolling Stone would publish it, but then again, how many investigative journalists or reporters have been given unfettered access to evidence and/or documents involving the events of 9-11?

[Flatulo]

97. Yes, just like engineers don't decide which products get built.

But when management is approached with a moneymaker, they jump all over it.

To that extent, engineers drive innovation.

By analogy, journalists create the product and publishers produce it.

An expose of 9/11 sounds like a valuable product, but I haven't seen one yet.

[Ghost in the Machine]

98. how many investigative journalists and/or reporters have had unfettered access

to documents and evidence from 9-11??

Your analogy was good, but not quite on the money.

Engineers have access to blueprints, reports and have a working knowledge of what they are working with... they don't get turned away from information. They are given everything they need, basically... right?

All we have knowledge of on 9-11 is what the bush/cheney cabal has allowed to be released... right??

[Flatulo]

99. I can't answer that. But some very good books have been

written, notably 'The Looming Tower' by Lawrence Wright that track the rise of al-Qaeda and the events and mistakes that led up to 9/11. This author was able to piece together a tale going back 60 years culminating in the attacks.

There was no government conspiracy. There was government arrogance, mis-communication, non-communication and outright incompetence.

[Ghost in the Machine]

100. Thank you, I'll check into that book...

I'll admit that I haven't read a whole lot about this subject, and quite honestly, the only information I pay attention to is you guys here in the 9-11 forum. I think it keeps me from being tainted by too much disinformation and I trust y'all here more than anyone else to call bullshit what it is and call facts what they are. That's what makes this forum so great.

One thing I don't agree with though is the incompetence theory. I used to agree with it for the most part, but it just seems like too convenient of an excuse to me now. I think the PNACers and the neocons are highly competent and have achieved the goals that they set out to accomplish... destabilization of the middle east, highly inflated oil prices which enrich their cronies, and perpetual war. You don't get that through incompetence, you get that through sheer cunning and cut throat tactics.

PEACE!

Ghost

[greyl]

94. "Journalists are not cowards - over 200 have been killed in Iraq."

I like that point.

[BillDouglas]

101. This Excellent Story is Only Part of a GLOBAL WAVE FOR TRUTH - JAPAN, ITALY, CANADA, ETC.

Corporate Media Silent on Japanese, European, and Mass US 9/11 Truth Demands (12 comments)

In the last month, Denmark's most popular television talk show had on a Danish 9/11 truth organizer to talk about the 9/11 attacks, and the fact that evidence points strongly to an inside job, by elements within the US government. This week a Japanese legislator, on national television, grilled the Japanese Prime Minister about why Japan has not investigated the 9/11/2001 attacks that killed a number of Japanese...US MEDIA?

Also today Canada's MTV on "Loose Change Final Cut"!!!

Read entire article at:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_bill_dou_080117_corporate_media_sile.htm