Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 10:35 AM
Original message |
Does anything actually connect modern Israel and the year 1948? |
|
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 10:36 AM by Boojatta
Isn't it possible that there is no connection?
I'm not suggesting that Israel doesn't exist now. I'm suggesting that it might have been founded earlier. For example, is it possible that there was a secret provision in the Treaty of Versailles that was implemented before 1948? Alternatively, is it possible that modern Israel was established before the Treaty of Versailles?
|
LARED
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message |
1. The idea of a Jewish homeland was "out there" prior to 1948 |
|
which is not surprising.
So what?
|
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
2. My question is whether the government of modern Israel existed |
|
before 1948.
Also, the discovery of previously secret provisions in the Treaty of Versailles would be a big deal to many historians.
|
LARED
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
3. Read this and tell me what you think |
Darwins Doberman
(83 posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message |
4. Maybe there was a declaration... |
|
Made in Britain... by a Lord... stating the goal of re-establishing the state of Israel in British Palestine... damn it, this all sounds so familiar... I dunno, maybe this
|
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
5. I'm not talking about utterance, before 1948, of a goal. |
|
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 01:53 PM by Boojatta
I'm talking about modern Israel having an actual government before 1948.
|
William Seger
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
|
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 02:16 PM by William Seger
... in another dimension or alternate universe? What would this "actual government" have actually governed before 1948?
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message |
7. sorta. in 1948 Israel deserved all sorts of sympathy because fascists had persecuted and killed Jews |
|
Now, Palestinians deserve all sorts of sympathy because Israeli fascists persecute and kill Palestinians.
So there is a kind of connection.
|
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
8. Do Palestinians deserve sympathy starting precisely in the year 2008 and no earlier? |
|
I ask because you attempted to set up a parallel specifically between 1948 and "Now." The year right now happens to be 2008.
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
11. Do any Palestinians have a right to return to Kuwait? |
|
Alternatively, does the territory of Kuwait lack holiness and therefore permit the government of Kuwait to deport Palestinians en masse with no questions asked?
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. all the indigenous people of that region have the right to sort out their own |
|
political destinies free of Euro-American imposition of borders, coups, military backing and other meddling.
|
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
13. Did all the people in Europe from 1933 to 1945 have the right to sort out... |
|
their own political destinies free of any alliances or military backing or other "meddling" by the USA?
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
|
your questions are vague.
|
LARED
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-28-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
19. Perhaps we took different history classes, but |
|
if memory serves me well the Europeans were more than welcoming when the USA "meddled" with the occupation and pending occupation by the German of most of Europe.
|
Boojatta
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-28-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. By "Europeans", did you mean... |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-28-08 01:00 PM by Boojatta
"European allies of the US and some neutral Europeans"?
|
LARED
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-28-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
21. No I meant those European countries |
|
that were occupied by the Germans or were in danger of being occupied.
Lets make this simple. You have some agenda or issue that you seem reluctant to say out loud. Just say it. You'll feel better.
|
Darwins Doberman
(83 posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
10. there is absolutely no equivalence between Palestine and the Holocaust |
|
to draw any is to minimize the horrors of what was perpetrated by the Nazis, and is simply repuslive.
I'd have more sympathy for the Palestinians if their groups weren't called things like Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, or they didn't look up to blood cults like Hamas for leadership. These groups aren't exactly progressive liberal movements in favor of things like women's rights, religious pluralism, you know, stuff I would hope you support.
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
15. there is no quantitative comparison--and I did not make one. |
|
there is, however, an undeniable qualitative similarity.
|
Darwins Doberman
(83 posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-28-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
|
When Israel sets up death and concentration camps for all non-Jewish Arabs to live in regardless of the level of society in which they live, then there's a qualitative comparison. When their goal becomes the extinction of the Arab race from the planet, then there's a qualitative comparison between Israel's actions and the actions undertaken by crumbs like Adolf Eichmann.
Good job, you qualitatively minimized the Holocaust, Pat Buchanan and Jean Marie Le-Pen would be proud.
|
leftofthedial
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-28-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
18. congratulations! heckuva job, DD! |
|
you managed to simultaneously mischaracterize what I said
AND
to trivialize the denial of civil liberties based on ethnicity and national origin, the confiscation and destruction of private property, the confiscation of lands, forced detainment on the basis of ethnic origin, torture, economic exploitation of ethnic sub-class, murder of innocent men, women and children, crimes against humanity, pervasive use of military and national security assets to oppress an ethnic "minority," fascist marriage of the military, the government and corporations and the use of military force to intimidate and control other countries.
Good job! Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels and Joe Lieberman would be proud!
|
Lithos
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Sep-27-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message |
16. There were government like agencies |
|
Some of which were competing, but there was nothing which was a sole representative of the political governance which became Israel.
If you are talking about the people having a national identity, then you are talking more about subjective pieces than anything you can put factual claims against.
This is almost like asking the question, when was the American West settled or when was there a US government? A lot depends on your heuristics.
L-
|
sofa king
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Mon Sep-29-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message |
22. Sure, that's why people who hate them call them "Zionists." |
|
Theodore Herzl is considered the official founder of the Zionist movement, publishing a pamphlet on the subject in 1897. However, Jewish migration back to the Middle East was steady for hundreds of years before that, notably including the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492.
However, prior to 1947, the Zionists were about as politically important as the libertarians out there who are planning to take over one of our fifty states by encouraging all libertarians to move there.
In 1949, Israel was admitted to the United Nations, effectively solidifying the country's sovereignty.
|
DU
AdBot (1000+ posts) |
Fri May 03rd 2024, 11:53 AM
Response to Original message |