Radiation at Pentagon

[k-robjoe]

"Around the Pentagon there were reports of high radiation levels after 9-11. American Free Press has documentation that radiation levels in Alexandria and Leesburg, Va., were much higher than usual on 9-11 and persisted for at least one week afterward. In Alexandria, seven miles south of the burning Pentagon, a doctor with years of experience working with radiation issues found elevated radiation levels on 9-11 of 35 to 52 counts per minute (cpm) using a "Radalert 50" Geiger counter. One week after 9-11, in Leesburg, 33 miles northwest of the Pentagon, soil readings taken in a residential neighborhood showed even higher readings of 75 to 83 cpm."
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/300788.shtml

I´d be interested in some second opinions on this, (but maybe not another circle dance).

And I know that some posters feel that Bollyn and AFP are scumbags and antisemites, so there´s no need to go through all that again.

[RebelYell]

1. Related

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x23406

[k-robjoe]

2. If I´ve got this right

it was only 747s that had Depleted uranium as counterweight.
(And Flight 77 was a 757.)

I don´t know if your post was to say that it might be explained, being from the counterweight(?)

[RebelYell]

3. What was used for counterweights in 757's?

I don't know.

[k-robjoe]

4. Well, itseems

that when they stopped using DU in 747s, they switched to tungsten :

"Boeing has never used DU on either the 757 or the 767, and we no longer use it on the 747," Leslie M. Nichols, product spokesperson for Boeing's 767, told AFP. "Sometime ago, we switched to tungsten, because it is heavier, more readily available and more cost effective."

(Link in original message.)

[RebelYell]

5. Ok, I see

What Mr. Nichols failed to mention is tungsten is much safer. Here's the MSDS sheet.

http://www.rembar.com/MSDSw.htm

[LARED]

6. More idiocy from American Free Press

Christopher Bollyn is a known historical revisionist. Why do people post his garbage.

I don't feel that Bollyn and AFP are scumbags and antisemites, the facts are what they are. They are lying scumbags.

[John Doe II]

7. Your opinion on the subject

I think k-robjoe made it pretty clear in his first posting:

"And I know that some posters feel that Bollyn and AFP are scumbags and antisemites, so there´s no need to go through all that again."

So let's maybe discuss the subject.

[LARED]

8. I would love to discuss the subject

The problem is that any stories created by Bollyn are most likely a conglomeration of lies and half truths. Why would anyone want to discuss that.

Why not discuss if fairies exist?

[geek tragedy]

10. Not opinion, fact.

You cannot trust a single word that comes from them. Citing them is like citing Hitler as a truthful source.

This garbage has no place on a civilized website.

[meppie-meppie not]

15. TY JD :-)

It really gets tiresome having people repeatedly telling us what is worthy of reading or consideration.

[geek tragedy]

9. Using Bollyn and AFP as sources is forbidden.

And no one "feels" that Bollyn and AFP are scumbags and antisemites.

It is a matter of inescapable fact that they are scumbags and antisemites.

Anyone who disagrees is a freaking Nazi.

[DulceDecorum]

11. This thread will be pulled BUT I am going to start another

on this same topic.
DIFFERENT SOURCES.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x24762

[John Doe II]

12. Only discussing the source not the content ...

As people around here are only discussing the source and not the content here is what seatnineb has found:


Dr. Rokke: What I will state: Unless I'm wrong, the radiological contamination at the Pentagon and some distance from the Pentagon was absolutely confirmed, real radiacs, after the impacts on 9/11. Is that correct, ma'am?
Anon.: Yes.
Dr Rokke: Yes ma'am, it is. Thank you very much
http://www.libertythink.com/2004_01_11_archives.html .


On Sept. 11, I called a medical doctor who lives 7 miles from the Pentagon and warned her
that DU could have burned in the hijacked jets that crashed (up to 3000 pounds were used in 747's). She turned on her gamma meter - radiation levels were 8 times higher than normal inside her house. She informed the Nuclear Information ResourceService in Washington DC, and the EPA, FBI, HazMat and other emergency response gencies went to the Pentagon to investigate.
A pile of rubble from the crash was radioactive, but the EPA rep said "oh... it's probably depleted uranium... it's not a health hazard unless you breathe it". Firefighters, Pentagon personel, and communities nearby DID BREATHE IT. There was no followup investigation, and what about the World Trade Center in NY? Radiation almost never gets into the media. It is a taboo subject.
of http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/radioactive-NewYor...

DU has also been used in aircraft to make counterweights in the tailplane. A Boeing spokesman told BBC News Online: "The company began using DU in the early 1960s.
Boeing replaced it with tungsten in the early 1980s, on grounds of cost and availability. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/sci/tech/568234.stm


So, the question is very simple:
If there was a radiation at the Pentagon on 911 where does it come from?

[The Magistrate]

14. It Is Interesting, Mr. Doe, What You Leave Out

Here is what precedes your excerpt:

LT: I listen to her radio broadcast a lot, and I heard her mention back in November that either you, or some associates of yours (I forgot) , or both; actually tested the impact site at the Pentagon a few miles from here for depleted uranium and --

DR: I wasn't involved in that --

LT: -- got a positive result.

DR: -- but there was a doctor that *did* measure the radiological . . .
Doc? Would you like to measure and talk about this? Are you willing to, in public?

Unidentified scientist: Heh.

DR: Or is it too dangerous?

Anon.: Well, I don't know, I did find --

DR: -- maybe . . . leave it alone, okay?

Anon.: Yeah.

DR: Don't turn your camera --

LT: -- I didn't turn my camera.

It is clear from the above that Col. Rokke disclaims any personal knowledge of radiation at the site. He is merely retailing hearsay on the matter. The source of the hearsay, though known to him, is not identified, and so cannot be examined for bona fides. No more information is provided about the claimed readings than about the person who claims, anonymously, to have made them. It ought not to be necessary to point out, though for some in these precincts it probably is, that this sort of thing does not constitute evidence, either in a court of law or in serious scholarship. That some have chosen this as a cornerstone for rearing tremendous edificies of speculation says something about complimentary about their industriousness, perhaps, but nothing good at all about their judgement....

[seatnineb]

17. So.......

Dr Rokke has scruples.......my anonymouse "magistrate" friend.......

DR: Or is it too dangerous?

Anon.: Well, I don't know, I did find --

DR: -- maybe . . . leave it alone, okay?

As I said......and I know this is music to your ears....

I'll take Dr Rokke or his colleagues over you.......any time......

[LARED]

19. Very suspect information

She turned on her gamma meter - radiation levels were 8 times higher than normal inside her house.

Makes me wonder if the source of gamma radiation was DU or something else. DU emits very low levels of gamma rays, typically just a bit higher than background gamma radiation levels. It seems very unlikely that DU created levels 8 times higher than normal.

[seatnineb]

21. No.

.......well yes,....in fact you are right about the low emmissions of gamma rays from DU........

But here is a little something for you to chew on....

Djakovica, Kosovo. UNEP assessment team member measures DU contamination with a gamma meter. (Photo courtesy UNEP)
But the task force found that levels of DU may be significantly raised over background levels in close proximity to DU contaminating events.

Over the days and years following such an event, WHO warns, the contamination will become dispersed into the wider natural environment. "People living or working in affected areas can inhale dusts and can consume contaminated food and drinking water."
http://getvegan.com/blog/2002_10_16_archive.php

And these tests were done a year and a half after the event!

........and with regards to the suspiciouse article in question.

The reading was only high in relation to the normal background radiation.......in this case somewhere between 8-12cpm in variouse areas of Washington......

8 times higher than this normal background radiation........somewhere around 60-70 cpm is still a negligible quantity in terms of the average absorption of natural radiation(x-rays ect)per year.

So the probability of DU at the Pentagon is still strong.

[The Magistrate]

22. Do You Read The Things You Put Up Here, Mr. Seat?

The person who reports detecting what you acknowledge is a very small amount of radiation in the capital was at a distance of seven miles from the point of impact; the United Nations official's comments you cite, evidently from the form and source at third or fourth hand at least, jufging by your citation, speaks of elevated levels in close proximity to the contaminating events. Seven miles is not, by any literate use of the English language, close proximity. The contamination refered to as occuring later does not refer to radiation, but to the dispersal of particulate matter in such a wide degree that it is not detectable by comparison to background radiation, although each individual particle still has the potential to cause, in the proper circumstances, some adverse affect to health.

[seatnineb]

23. Wrong.

LARED refers to the increase as something monumental.....

In fact.....

8 times higher than normal is not an elavated increase in relation to the background radiation.......it is just that ....an increase...nothing more......nothing less....and something that is worthy of attention.....

And the EPA official says that they did not report high levels of radioactivity at the Pentagon...........just that they detected an increase in radioactivity.........consistent with depleted uranium.........

Just like UNEP in Kosovo......

Read the PDF.

[The Magistrate]

25. Mr. Lared's Comments, Sir, Were Not Addressed By Me

What he said in the matter does not concern me in the slightest just now; it is you who are the object of my attentions.

You have been at some pains to claim there is a great presence of depleted uranium involved in the crash at the Pentagon, and have sited this oft-referenced claim of increased radiation at seven miles distance from the place as proof of same. The materials you posted above seem to suggest otherwise; that elevated levels of radiation would be encountered only in close proximity to the point where the material was used.

The question, Mr. Seat, is not whether depleted uranium is a danger to health or not; the question is whether it was present in signifigant quantities at the Pentagon crash site, and whether this demonstrates something other than the hijacked jetliner struck that place. That is the point you have been urging at length, though you do not seem to have any evidence worth the name to support it.

"That is wrong. Cling to your pathetic fables of fluid exchange."

[seatnineb]

27. I'm sorry.........

The EPA has verified that depleted uranium was in the plane that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11 18,19 and that the crash site was contaminated. Residents of New York City detected radiation on hand held geiger counters at the WTC site.
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Leuren-Moret-Gen-Groves21feb03.htm

....So.....you were sayin?...............

[LARED]

28. If you follow your sources the EPA verified nothing of the sort.

They said

A pile of rubble from the crash was found to be radioactive, but EPA official Bill Bellinger of the agency's Region III Environmental Radiation Monitoring Office was unconcerned when contacted by Diane D'Arrigo from the Nuclear Information and Resource Service. Bellinger indicated that it was probably depleted uranium and mentioned that americium 241 could also be scattered around the crash site. He was convinced that depleted uranium is not radiologically toxic, but commented that it is more of a hazard when aerosolized.

That is not verification. That's a guy taking a guess.


http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2001/11/07_moret_du-devastation.htm


From http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/americium.htm

What is americium-241 used for?
Americium-241 is the only isotope of americium to have widespread commercial use. It is the radiation source for a number of applications:

medical diagnostic devices
research
fluid-density gauges
thickness gauges
aircraft fuel gauges
distance-sensing devices, all of which utilize its gamma radiation.

[demodewd]

30. very tiny particles

The items containing Americum that you allude to don't disperse Americum in very tiny particles into the air do they?

[The Magistrate]

38. Your Meaning Is Unclear, Mr. Dewd

No connection whatever has been established, nor is likely to be established, between two reported readings of elevated radiation levels at great distance in space and time from the crash site, and the crash.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[seatnineb]

31. I would guess...............

I guess you and the Magistrate went to the same science class........

Americium is present in depleted uranium.........though in very small amounts.......

Funny how you forgot to mention that......

[LARED]

32. And I would guess that there is some reason

you posted that informantion and snide remark for some purpose.

Also are you aware that DU is used as a shield against radiation exposure? Maybe those guys at the Pentagon had some DU around for that purpose?

Also can you address the bogus source you used to imply the the EPA verified DU was at the site?

[seatnineb]

34. Agreed.

If it were true......

I wonder if the Pentagon would ever formally acknowledge that they used DU protective shielding within their walls.......

As for which EPA official was at the Pentagon crash site........

I wondered when you would get round to that....

Chris Bollyn must be such a bad guy to actually confirm that Bellinger's EPA informant denied all knowledge of having been at the Pentagon.....

It matters not.......

An aquaintance of Dr Rokke came to the same conclusion anyways..........

And there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

[The Magistrate]

37. You Might Want To Check That, Dear

The material was not discovered in nature but through the bombardment of a plutonium isotope by neutrons in a laboratory: an isotope of plutonium thus produced decays into americium. It would not surprise me if some part per trillion trace occured in some ores containing uranium, the trans-uranic elements are not among my especial areas of study, and any number of items, such as radium, do occure in gram per several tonnes concentrations of ores such as pitchblende, and are not normally removed in the early processing stages.

Still, your comment here illustrates the clutch at straws style typical of the school of argument you subscribe to in this matter. Pure americium in measureable quantities was certainly present in the jetliner's instruments, and if the normal "gold-plating" operated in Pentagon procurement, was also present in numerous places in the building's smoke detectors. This not only sufices to account for radiation readings at the crash site, it renders quite unneccessary for their explanation your particuolar hobby-horse of depleted uranium, with or without some trace elements contained within it.

"You are wrong. Cling to your pathetic fables of fluid exchange."

[The Magistrate]

13. Why Is There No Point In Going Over That Again, Mr. Joe?

What is it about this matter that moves persons of left and progressive views, who claim to be far better and more pure leftists than those who oppose them herem to seek support for their views in the most reactionary and rascist sources available?

Further, Sir, how does a radiation reading, even if accurate and accurately reported in this reationary rag, occuring a week after the event at a distance of thirty-three miles from the crash, establish anything about conditions at the crash scene? If that were the source of the material it is claimed was detected, why were there not a great many similar reports, spread over a wide area reflective of the prevailing winds, and increasing in intensity and number the nearer to the crash scene they were taken?

[seatnineb]

16. Maggy......you are running out of ideas........

A pile of rubble from the crash was found to be radioactive, but EPA official Bill Bellinger of the agency's Region III Environmental Radiation Monitoring Office was unconcerned when contacted by Diane D'Arrigo from the Nuclear Information and Resource Service. Bellinger indicated that it was probably depleted uranium and mentioned that americium 241 could also be scattered around the crash site. He was convinced that depleted uranium is not radiologically toxic, but commented that it is more of a hazard when aerosolized.
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Devastation-Moret7nov01.htm.

[k-robjoe]

18. A very good reason

not to get into another discussion with you :

We have both today spent too much time in stupid quibbling (?), when we could have spent it doing something useful.

It´s a sad fact that the more time you spend posting here, the more you will be accustomed to rude and idiotic quibbling. And you seem to have spend the whole day in front of the PC, engaging everyone in ever more rude and idiotic quibbling. (I´m judging from the one with seatnineb. That´s the one I´ve read.) I can´t imagine how you can stand it.

[The Magistrate]

20. There Is No Accounting For Tastes, Mr. Joe

Among the many flaws of my character is a decided streak of cruelty....

"Misanthropy is how the Devil falls in love."

[DulceDecorum]

24. We have noticed that streak

and quite frankly, it is upsetting us greatly.

The Magistrate says:
Among the many flaws of my character is a decided streak of cruelty....

[The Magistrate]

26. Who Is This 'Us', Sir?

"The only persons who ought properly refer to themselves in the singular plural are royalty, editors, and people with tapeworm."

[Woody Box]

29. Boeing 747 and Depleted Uranium

Depleted Uranium is used in Boeing 747's as counterweights - as opposed to 757's. There are numerous reports of radioactive contamination after other 747 crashes (google is your friend).

So did a 747 crash into the Pentagon?

I don't say that, but this message fits the so-called Barak video that shows a four-engined plane diving towards the Pentagon.

I've got no URL available at the moment, but most of you will know which video I mean.

[k-robjoe]

33. Link

A link to this videoclip :

http://thewebfairy.com/video/barak.mpg

[LARED]

35. It's interesting to note that

Alexandria and Leesburg, Va are nearly 180 degrees apart from each other. Alexandria is just south of the Pentagon and Leesburg is more or less North of the Pentagon.

I wonder how the supposed DU contaimination was carried in both directions?

[demodewd]

36. answer

The wind changes directions.

[The Magistrate]

39. But The Materials Fall, Mr. Dewd

And you are claiming a dispersal pattern at least forty miles wide in which only two points of contamination from the source point you postulate have been discovered. You are so far from proving any connection between these two abberant readings and the crash site that a pitying smile is the only kind reaction to your insistance.

"The greatest of follies is passionate belief in the palpably untrue. It is the chief occupation of mankind."