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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:17 AM
Original message
An important note on the Pentagon debate
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 12:52 AM by crispy
After months of research into the claims of the missile theory, small plane theory, etc., I have become convinced that the most feasible scenario regarding the Pentagon crash is that F77 did indeed hit the Pentagon. While this may come as old news to most of you, let this be a message to everyone, especially the people who still believe something other than F77 hit the Pentagon: months of (mostly) unbiased research of all aspects of the Pentagon incident, especially those denying the official story, have not stood up to the light of reason. Such alternative scenarios only seem to be the truth if key pieces of evidence are excluded. If any last vestigial doubts remain in any of you as to what hit the Pentagon, may they now be dispelled.

I am not saying the official story with regard to the Pentagon is completely true. The plane (B757) very may well have been flown by remote control, but there is no hard evidence to support it.

My "No, boys and girls..." posts over the last few days have been sort of my "last stand" - if the scenario I put forth did not stand up to the evidence and facts on hand, then the last plausible scenario would have been ruled out. While there is nothing that absolutely disproved the scenario I put forth, I came to realize it would require stretches of logic which in the end made it a less plausible scenario than the official story that F77 did hit the Pentagon. I still have questions I would like answered about the 757 scenario, but let it suffice to say that no scenario proposed thus far sufficiently accounts for the facts on hand, even if one takes into the account of planted evidence, fooled witnesses, etc.

The practice heretofore by those seeking to refute the 757 scenario has been to poke holes in the official story, cast doubts on the credibility of key pieces of evidence, and emphasize certain evidence that seemed to contradict the commonly held fact that a 757 indeed hit the Pentagon. Very few people other than myself have attempted to put forth a full alternate scenario (Dick Eastman is the only one I can think of, and his small-plane theory has been quite easily refuted). And there is a reason so few people have done so. Perhaps it is because people would rather cling to what few pieces of evidence they have that demonstrate the purported veracity of the alternate viewpoint they so dearly hold than investigate deeper and risk finding out that their viewpoint is, to put it simply, false.

I now seek to establish an informal guideline for investigations seeking to refute the 757 scenario. If you cannot put forth an entire scenario which sufficiently accounts for all or nearly all the evidence on hand, do not waste the time of posters to this board. Maintaining an unfounded cynicism with regard to the official story is detrimental to real seekers of the truth. If you persist in holding to your belief that F77 did not hit the Pentagon, put forth the evidence that proves it. Before you do that, take the time to read through the old Pentagon threads in the archives, specifically posts by anablep. Then read the "Now, boys and girls..." threads. If your scenario holds up after reading all that, then please let us know what it is. }(

I post this in the attempt to put behind us once and for all the fiction that F77 did not hit the Pentagon. If you care to demonstrate that it is not fiction but fact, please do so. But until someone provides sufficient evidence to demonstrate that the official story is in this regard false, the statement "F77 hit the Pentagon on 9/11" can and should be regarded by all members of this forum as true.

If enough people persist in irrationally believing F77 did not hit the Pentagon, I will consider putting up a website proving conclusively that it did.

Let us put this behind us and focus on less false matters.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here, here.
A good issue to concentrate on now is: What happened to the Wilson investigation? My bet is the Bush Administration played the press corps like chumps.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. So now that you believe, everyone else is a heretic?
I'm pretty sure 77 hit. The lights clinched it for me. But I've yet to understand why we haven't seen pics of 2 engines, seating, stuff that would be considered hard evidence of 77 released to the public. But 2 things still give me pause-

(1) WHy did the Pentagon allow itself to be hit 52+ minutes after the 2nd WTC crash?

(2) How could Hanjour possible fly that plane at cruise speed, drop 7000 feet doing a 270 turn, and lay it 2 feet off the ground before hitting the newly reinforced and least populated part of the Pentagon?

Still much that we don't know about this attack and the government is in no hurry for us to understand what really happened that day.
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hehe
> So now that you believe, everyone else is a heretic?

That's the way the cookie crumbles. :evilgrin:


> (1) WHy did the Pentagon allow itself to be hit 52+ minutes after the 2nd WTC crash?

Nothing saying they didn't allow the attacks to happen. I am still dubious of Rumsfeld's actions. But the question is whether or not F77 hit the Pentagon, an issue which, you must admit, has served as a considerable distraction from such postulations.


> (2) How could Hanjour possible fly that plane at cruise speed, drop 7000 feet doing a 270 turn, and lay it 2 feet off the ground before hitting the newly reinforced and least populated part of the Pentagon?

Hmmm, perhaps he didn't. :o
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. and ....
"(2) How could Hanjour possible fly that plane at cruise speed, drop 7000 feet doing a 270 turn, and lay it 2 feet off the ground before hitting the newly reinforced and least populated part of the Pentagon?" (good question!)
How could a half-ass cessna pilot fly so low to the ground and
knock down light polls 30 to 40 feet tall, and not plow right
in the ground before he hit the pentagon ????? hmmmmm !!!!!
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. didnt anyone 'see' what actually hit the building..were there not cameras
on the security system...Why didnt anyone see it happen?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Huh
No footage is in the public domain showing what hit the Pentagon.

Witnesses described seeing a B757. Those attempting to refute the 757 scenario have offered alternate explanations for why witnesses said what they did, i.e. they were lying, tricked, didn't know, etc.
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FannySS Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. crispy, I agree with you, but ...
.. please know that in Europe there are really a lot of people which do not believe, that it was F77. There are famous authors (Meyssan, von Bülow, Wisnewski) and in European Forums there are annoying discussions, it is like fighting windmills.

So what I want to say is, that I would appreciate it very much, if someone could put up a website with all the arguments and refutings. (I do not have possbilities, but I could help with some informations.)

Fanny
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. :puke:
" the statement "F77 hit the Pentagon on 9/11" can and should be regarded by all members of this forum as true." In short CRAM IT..crispy!! You only speak for yourself. Don't assume that you have the authority to speak for all of us..This forum is an open forum. You have no forum authority over anyone. :puke:
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. So sowwy
If I sounded pretentious I apologize. I don't mean each individual must now believe as I say ("Heil Crispy!") but that the ambient mood should regard the official story as the factual norm and if someone doubts it, they should back up their beliefs. Is that unreasonable?

I think I may begin on that website. Maybe I could get people to help.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm shocked
Converts are a rarity. What exactly caused you to "see to light" so to speak?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. PRAISE JESUS
> What exactly caused you to "see to light" so to speak?

It was inevitable. There comes a point when the rational investigator just can't help coming upon the truth, try as one might to avoid it. I originally believed in the "no plane" theories only for the sake of investigation, so it's not like I had some psychological attachment to the theories.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Just for the record..
Just for the record,I don't believe in the no plane theory...who at this point does?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "mhr"
but he doesn't count, lol
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Dahling crispy
You believe whatever you want to believe.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley11142003.html
But as for telling the people of the Democratic Underground what we may or may not post and how we are to conduct our investigations into the events of September 11, 2001.....
:wow:
I wish to go on record as saying that I fully intend to disobey your majesty's edicts and I fully intend to do as I please.
I will research WHERE I please and WHEN I please and I fully intend to post my findings on DU WHENEVER I please. Futhermore, I strongly encourage all other participants of this forum to do the same.

There have been MANY CONTINUOUS ATTEMPTS to silence the voice of the Democratic Underground. I believe that this is simply the latest attempt in that general direction.
How dare you tell us how to behave and what to think?
If you feel that we are wasting time here in this forum or the Democratic Underground,
then by golly - take yourself off to a place where your time is better spent.

YOUR FREEDOM TO LEAVE
All visitors to the Democratic Underground website are here voluntarily. Nobody is forcing you to post on this message board. The administrators try their best to be fair, and to make Democratic Underground a welcoming place for progressives who like Democratic Underground and who want to be here. If you don't like Democratic Underground, or the members of Democratic Underground, or the way we run Democratic Underground, then we strongly suggest that you exercise your right to leave. If we decide that you don't like this place very much, then we reserve the right to show you the door ourselves.

Why do you not simply take off and start your own website instead of threatening us here on this website with its impending arrival?
Demonstrate conclusively that the official story is the truth and tell us all once and for all
WHERDY GO?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. WHAT?
HOW DARE YOU DEFY MY WILL?




> There have been MANY CONTINUOUS ATTEMPTS to silence the voice of the Democratic Underground. I believe that this is simply the latest attempt in that general direction.

Silence you? I'd rather you speak up, take a position on what happened at the Pentagon and how. Your postings about hair and the Pentagon floor don't really accomplish that.


> Why do you not simply take off and start your own website instead of threatening us here on this website with its impending arrival?

I've already started working on it.


> Demonstrate conclusively that the official story is the truth and tell us all once and for all
WHERDY GO?

Who's saying the official story is the truth?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'd like to see this as well
take a position on what happened at the Pentagon and how

Many have asked that question. To my knowledge no one has ever gotten an answer.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good idea-seeing as how all your evid. shows F77 DIDN'T hit it
"I will consider putting up a website proving conclusively that it did."

Were you waiting for David Blaine to be available to offer his services?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wait and see
> Good idea-seeing as how all your evid. shows F77 DIDN'T hit it

Evidence by itself proves nothing; it is the interpretation of evidence that counts. I interpreted the facts on hand to mean one thing, when in the end I discovered they meant another.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. So, your transformation wasn't based on any new evidence?
You just "decided" to re-interpret whatever evidence you had considered?

Relevant evidence is used to establish facts, not interpretations.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Established facts
Abe, you are a passionate defender that the offical story that flt 77 hit the Pentagon is false.

You bring up the notion that relevant evidence is used to establish facts; but do you actually have any relevant evidence to establish what you believe are facts to support your position?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I haven't seen any evidence that FL 77 crashed anywhere
Unless and until I see some evidence that FL 77 crashed into the Pentagon (or anywhere else), I think it's ludicrous to take the position that it did.

There is evidence that supports the fact that something happened at the Pentagon, but no evidence that FL 77 crashed there.

Why would you interpret or infer that because there was a fire etc., that means FL 77 crashed there? What caused the fire might be open to interpretation as to it's origins or causes; but there's no evidence to support a claim or interpretation that the fire (and other damage) there was caused by FL 77 crashing. So, the fire (e.g.) may have been caused by an explosion, or something else (missile?); but there's no evidence to support that it was caused by FL 77.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. So does this mean you
have absolutely zero evidence to support your claim the offical story is false?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It means what I said, but speaking of what you said...

I agree with you that it's a "story" all right. And, since it's being pedaled by the Administration (both those who work directly for the Gov., and probably a ton of paid folks who aren't on the Gov't payroll),
that's why it's called the "Official Story". Not because it is true.
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. \\\\\\\
I can see how you would be cynical and skeptical of the official story, but the question is, what is your reason for doubting the official story with regard to what hit the Pentagon?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Insufficient evidence / no credible evidence/common sense
Past history of Gov't lies, logic, failure of the Gov't to release evidence in it's possession, no credible showing of how national security would be threatened by releasing obvious evidence such as video evidence of the Pentagon "attack", no evidence to back the crucial claims of Ted "Arkansas Project", "Put Muscle On The Supreme Court To Install The Unelected Fraud As President" Olson's claims that his alleged wife called him from FL 11 & who just happened to be the first and only source for too many critical elements of the Official Version Conspiracy, truly incredible claims about the purported "hijackers", and on and on and on.

Why ANYone in their right mind would accept the O.Version Conspiracy Story is beyond me. Unless they're being paid or pressured to.
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Says you
I see nothing in there specifically relating to the Pentagon, except for the video evidence thing. Why would they release it? To satisfy people like you? If it showed a B757 hitting the Pentagon, wouldn't you call it faked?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Depends: if you produced it; yes, I'd call it faked
"If it showed a B757 hitting the Pentagon, wouldn't you call it faked?"

See subject line
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Sooooooooooo?????
You have nothing to back up your position? Correct?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. My position is: no evidence FL 77 crashed anywhere
If you produce credible evidence to back your claim that FL 77 crashed anywhere, I'd be very interested in examining it.

Unfortunately, as of now, you haven't produced any to back your position. Why not?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Then what do you think hit the Pentagon?
Do tell.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Good question
I don't know what "hit" the Pentagon and I think the only people who know for sure aren't gonna say they are responsible for what happened there.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Huh?
If you produce credible evidence to back your claim that FL 77 crashed anywhere, I'd be very interested in examining it.

Assuming you believe the hundreds of photos, manifold eyewitness testimonies, countless newspaper articles, terrorists claiming responsibility, human remains recovery process, etc, etc, etc is not credible.

What does qualify as credible evidence in your estimation?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Your "partner" has already debunked all of that.
Crispy debunked everything you mentioned. I don't recall reading where you disagreed. Did you? If so, what did Crispy say that you disagreed with?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Do you ever answer a question?
What does qualify as credible evidence in your estimation?

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. What constitutes evidence (competent , credible, admissable)
That which tends to prove or disprove something. Evidence may be false and of no probabtive value and so it differs from proof.

Credible or competent evidence is something which a court would accept as relevant or admissible in a legal proceeding.

A witness may be competent, but not credible (e.g. Ted Olson). So, for evidence to be credible, it has to be worthy of belief. Whether you're talking about the account of a witneess, or some form of physical or circumstantial evidence - it has to be worthy of belief.

Four requirements:

1. Competent
2. Credible
3. Admissible
4. Subject to being investigated (or already has been, and now is available for critical examination)


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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Evidence?
Forget about witnesses for a second.

The damage to the light poles could not have been done by a plane with a wingspan of less than about 90 feet. Do you disagree with that?

The light pole evidence in conjunction with the plane-sized impact hole (90 feet plus damage to facade on either side) automatically precludes all missile or small plane theories.

Do you think a large-sized drone hit the Pentagon? What "credible", "worthy of belief" evidence is there to suggest such a thing?

What do you think hit the Pentagon? What evidence is there for thinking F77 didn't hit the Pentagon? What scenario fits, other than the official story's "F77 scenario"?

Have you ever read the ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report? They explain everything quite nicely.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Why won't you answer my question?
You still didn't answer my question to you. Why? Crispy presented a "theory of the case" for why FL 77 didn't crash into the Pentagon. Do you agree with what s/he said? It sounded plausible, didn't it?

The Official Version falls apart right from the get-go because the very foundation of the Official Conspiracy Theory requires the truthfulness of Ted Olson's claims, and no evidence has been offered as proof of his alleged phone calls with the woman he says was he wife on 9/11.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Answer
I did not agree with Crisy's original theory. It did not seem plausible.

Ted Olsen truthfulness is not at the foundation of the Offical Story; it's the mountain of credible evidence that confirms flt 77 hit the Pentagon.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Wrong: Ted Olson's story is the key to the whole thing
And if you don't know that, you haven't studied the subject.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Wrong;
Credible evidence is the key. If you don't know that you dismiss reality.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Ted Olson's "evidence" isn't credible
If it was, you wouldn't even be here. It wouldn't be necessary for you to be here, because if T.Olson's story was true, the Gov't would have released evidence to substantiate his story, and it wouldn't be necessary to have paid disinfo agents OR you. Because there would be no question about the validity of the Official Story.

PLEASE NOTE: I did NOT say you are a disinfo agent. I assume YOU are merely someone who claims to believe the Official Story and are voluntarily trying to do whatever it is you're doing ("educating" the rest of us?).
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Awww, shucks. Gee whiz, thanks.
I debunked nothing. I offered possible explanations for how certain aspects of the Pentagon incident could be explained in my scenario. Those explanations rested on certain evidence, the lack of other evidence, but the surfacing of other evidence invalidated my intrepretations of said evidence, is such evidence not evident?

I eliminated all other possible scenarios other than my own. Then I eliminated my own. If you don't understand how I did so, I can tell you, or you can just wait a week or so for my website to go up.

Don't cling to my scenario. No one debunks me better than I do.

:silly:
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Spinning wheel
"No one debunks me better than I do."

Sounds like a spinner to me! Or a hired advocate. Or maybe a volunteer advocate. This today, that tomorrow. It's enough to baffle the curious.
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Interpretation is necessary
> Relevant evidence is used to establish facts, not interpretations.

Evidence must be interpreted. If it were as simple as looking at pieces of evidence and inferring conclusions, how is it two people can look at the same piece of evidence in radically different ways? How is it that, after an examination of the facts, or some facts, some people say that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, and some say a missile or small plane hit it?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. May we....
...include as a possibility another 757 or a plane near its size(possibly military) tarted up to look like an American Airline's jet liner laden with shaped charges and possibly a bomb? :hippie:
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Eh
Possibility? Yes. Feasibility? Not until someone provides good evidence for it.

You'd still need to explain 1) why not just use F77, 2) the passenger remains, 3) what makes you think shaped charges were used, and 4) how to rig a B757-sized plane with shaped charges.

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. In using F77
..what options do you have? I question the hijacker story..the probable success of hijackers taking over the plane with alleged boxcutters and without passenger and crew countering their ploy. Did the alleged hijackers employ the computer programming(help me here..what is the software?) to take over a 757 and reroute it to their target? They still would need to subdue the passengers and overtake the cockpit. If you're hard core MIHOP you look for other alternatives. Do we go with the outside takeover via global hawk or "Home Run". But does that procedure enable a plane to crash into such an exact target( I'm presuming this target was well intended) as the West Wing first floor of the Pentagon where the plane just managed to skim above the generator? Does global hawk or overriding the flight program enable one to be so pin point in accuracy? Like a smart bomb? Are the passengers gassed(Dewdney)? Lets say there are no hijackers and the plane is overriden from the outside...and the passengers and crew are gassed. You bring the plane down( Home Run?) shortly after it attains cruise elevation substituting it with a drone(Plisson)and the drone flies out to Ohio. In the meantime you put the gassed passengers and crew into the 77 replacement and wait till the drone would either return near your airspace or the theoretical time allotment for its return, put the replacement up in the air and crash it into the intended target(the West Wing..offices of Naval Intelligence) using the state of the art missile guidance system, shaped charges and a bomb to insure maximum damage in a limited area. You have your 77 lookalike,your passenger remains(if there were to any)and a procedure that would insure the maximum efficiency and precision. :silly:
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Or
Or you could just use F77. I can't imagine it would be hard to electronically hijack it if they really wanted to.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. But...
...as I said previously...would you be able to maneuver a plane so close to the ground and at what I consider to be pin point accuracy at an preplanned target(my opinion) by overriding the plane from the outside? Also I believe if you are going to discuss the feasibilities of different ideas we should take up the dynamics of the crash. The white flash?...is this consistant with a jet fuel driven fire? The location of the fireball...it appears to be very near the facade and out into the lawn...(as if the explosion took place right at the wall)The spread of the fuel.. why is the area to the south so much more thoroughly burned out? Why did some witnesses claim to have smelled cordite? We need an explosives expert on this thread. Why did the flight path take us all the way to Ohio...why the stalling for time..to what advantage would that give real hijackers or isn't it that the conspirators knew there would be no interception?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. ...
> would you be able to maneuver a plane so close to the ground and at what I consider to be pin point accuracy at an preplanned target(my opinion) by overriding the plane from the outside?

If there was a transmitter or something in the Pentagon it wouldn't have been hard for the plane to find its way to it. We just don't know what technologies were used or could have been used.

You can't really assume that the Pentagon pictures are authentic. How does a B757 make a white trail of smoke?

The flight path to Ohio may be anomalous but then so are all the other flights.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Poor track record of truthfulness in O.Stories & O. Versions
"I did not have sex with that woman"

"In my mind, we did not trade arms for hostages"

"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction"

"Iraq has a program to develop weapons of mass destruction"

"I'm a uniter, not a divider"

"Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone assassin"

Official Version of the military career of George W. Bunnypants:
No mention that he deserted his obligation when he went AWOL.
No mention that he was banned from flying after refusing to submit to a medical examination which would have required a urine sample.

The track record for truthfulness in O. Stories & O. Versions isn't very good.
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. So?
The official story is that 9/11 happened. The official story is that planes were hijacked. The official story is that planes crashed into the World Trade Center.

No one here is claiming the official story is completely true. But doubting a certain aspect of it requires some good reason to think so. So what about the Pentagon crash do you think indicates that F77 didn't hit it?
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FannySS Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Once again, I totally agree with you, crispy
especially when you say:

I see nothing in there specifically relating to the Pentagon, except for the video evidence thing. Why would they release it? To satisfy people like you? If it showed a B757 hitting the Pentagon, wouldn't you call it faked?

Therefore I think it´s fighting windmills, and therefore I also would appreciate it very much, to build up a "No-No-Boeing"-Web-Site.

Ther "No-Boeing-believers" always come up with a new "argument", when the topical discussed argument is refuted, I know this very good from European Forums, and you can also see it here.

I could not really find any good Web-Site which tries to show, that indees Flight 77 hits the Pentagon (the best I found is http://www.christian-patriots.us/PentagonCrashAnalysis.html , but its not very up-to-date...)

Another question to Abe and others: if Bush (or any official organisation) made or let it happen (what in my opinion is possible),

WHY SHOULDN´T THEY USE THE 757 FOR THE PENTAGON-ATTACK???

If they wanted to do it, what reason did they consider not to use the 757?

So I´m very much longing for your Web-Site...!

Fanny
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. k
Yeah I'm working on the site now I should have something up in 2 weeks or so, so people can give suggestions to improve it etc. I'll post the link in this forum when it's up.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. That is the BEST one yet
"Evidence by itself proves nothing; it is the interpretation of evidence that counts. I interpreted the facts on hand to mean one thing, when in the end I discovered they meant another."

So if I find Joe in bed with my wife,
I can still sue Peter because he has been stressing Joe out at work?

Since,
I interpreted the facts on hand to mean one thing, when in the end I discovered they meant another."

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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No.
The plane made impact before the wedge.

I had interpreted this as supporting my missile/plane scenario.

Then I found out the plane struck a generator 110 feet before hitting the facade.

That is a more feasible and rational explanation, especially when you take into account all the other information.

The difference was one of interpretation. A change in interpretation doesn't occur arbitrarily.

A "757 believer" and a "no-757 believer" will look at the same piece of evidence two different ways, each comparing it to all the other evidence they have seen. The other evidence forms the basis for interpretation.

In the end, it all comes down to the facts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. Since crispy's other threads have been bumped recently...
I thought that this one, where crispy utterly repudiates Flight 77 denial, should get a bump as well.
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