What type plane hit WTC1 & why was it strewn over such a large area?

[philb]

Apparently many dozens of firemen saw the plane parts and body parts entering the WTC complex from the tunnel onto West Street. The plane debris seems to have been spread along West HW, Vessey, Church, and another street far from WTC1. The firemen assume the body parts were from the plane or were from the explosion since jumpers could not jump 1 or 2 big blocks to the area. But maybe big debris hit them also. And its not clear how many bodies there were. So what of the plane actually made it into WTC1?? And what type of plane were these parts from. The majority of witnesses seem to think it was a small plane or military plane. And one of the firemen says the plane parts match that description-military plane.
As does the pictures on a well known web site. So, what does the evidence suggest?

Since WTC2 was apparently hit from the south and most firemen came in on the north, there isn't similar info in there statements about the plane that hit WTC2. Though many were at WTC complex when it hit and saw the crash and explosion.

Does anyone have a good URL of picture of the WTC complex?

FIREFIGHTER PETE GUIDETTI

I was right on Broadway when the second plane hit . Shit and debris flying all over the place,
people screaming, running for their lives ,

BATTALION CHIEF EDWARD HENRY FDNY

THERE WERE BODY PARTS IN THE STREET ON WEST STREET AT THIS EARLY PART SO THE ONLY THING COULD FIGURE WAS THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE EITHER PEOPLE IN THE PLANE OR PEOPLE WHO WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THE BUILDING THERE WERE NO JUMPERS AT THIS TIME

FIREFIGHTER PAUL HYLAND

Church and Vesey. We were coming across and we walked down. We had to go down to the command center. We carried all our tools, the
bottles, everything, and as we're walking down, part of the plane engine was sitting right in the street, still burning. I said, look, this is the plane.

FIREFIGHTER ROBERT HUMPHREY
When I was on Church Street, I saw a lot of bodies laying all over the place

EMT STEPHEN HESS

came through the tunnel, and our initial response was seeing body parts and airplane parts all over the west side. West HW

SUPERVISOR FIRE MARSHAL BRIAN GROGAN

So I was walking up West, and I noticed first block we passed I noticed in the street
at the end of where the Jersey barriers are, tunnel -- I guess it would be Carlisle -- I saw
the first body or parts of a body, upper torso, no head, no arms or legs. I saw another one
across the street.
Q. These are from the people that were jumping out of the building?
A. No, I don't believe so. I believe it was from the airplane, people in the building and
the airplane coming through and it blew these people out into the street, because you couldn't
have jumped that far. It's impossible.

DR. MICHAEL GUTTENBERG

The other thing that was actually evident, though, is what appeared to be some plane parts, like
some circular pieces of a plane, the walk down Vesey Street,

FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL HAZEL

But we eventually got through the tunnel, and at first we started seeing bits and pieces, when we turned up West Street, of the plane and of what turned out to be body parts. But the closer we got, the bigger the parts got, the plane parts and the body parts, That's when he started trying to snake his way up West Street. There was a lot of debris in the street and I We just passed a compact car where the engine was running and the door was open, which looked to me like the driver had escaped, but from the back seat to the trunk was crushed by a jet engine. We started going up West Street. I believe that's when Smitty ran over the part of the plane, but he did that to avoid the bodies because there were obviously bodies in the street

FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL HAZEL

But we eventually got through the tunnel, and at first we started seeing bits and pieces, when we turned up West Street, of the plane and of what turned out to be body parts. But the closer we got, the bigger the parts got, the plane parts and the body parts, That's when he started trying to snake his way up West Street. There was a lot of debris in the street and I We just passed a compact car where the engine was running and the door was open, which looked to me like the driver had escaped, but from the back seat to the trunk was crushed by a jet engine. We started going up West Street. I believe that's when Smitty ran over the part of the plane, but he did that to avoid the bodies because there were obviously bodies in the street


there were lots more of these.

[philb]

1. More firemen statements- does anyone know a good map URL for WTC?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY FDNY ( airplane was military type & green)

I saw airplane parts on West Street. Q. How did you know they were airplane parts?
A. It looked like pieces of a plane, skin of a plane. I mean, they weren't really discernible. I couldn't say this was this part of a plane or that was that part. Just knowing a plane had hit the building and I looked and I saw it looked like the skin off a wing or a fuselage or wherever it came from. Q. Clearly not building material? A. No. The building material was sort of gray and you could see it, you know, how it differed from the plane. I was listening to the tape this morning of the people calling up and they were describing the
plane that hit the building. Actually, so many people saw it. They actually described the plane as it came in. They said it was a military-type plane and it was green and it was this. I mean, I never saw the color of the plane.
Several paragraphs blanked out




CAPTAIN MICHAEL DONOVAN FDNY WTC2 2nd plane hits

We were actually still on Church Street. We heard the plane briefly, the earth shook, the buildings shook, a tremendous fireball overhead.
I thought there was a bomb or an explosion. A tremendous fireball, flaming debris, pieces of the airplane, fuselage, landing gear, pieces of the building.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK FDNY

Various pieces of the plane were falling on the street. As we went down the street you could see parts of aircraft with stencil numbers on it and things like that. There was a wheel, or like a wheel housing or something else there in the street.

FIRE PATROLMAN PAUL CURRAN fuselage of plane on Vessey St


I parked the rig on Church right at Fulton, directly in front of the World Trade north plaza. My officer told us we're going to go into the north tower lobby. We proceeded down to Vesey. Walking down Vesey, we noticed large pieces of what looked like possibly the fuselage from the
plane. There was a caravan of motorcycle police coming up. We stopped them and we cleared the path of big O rings and pieces of fuselage of
the plane. We threw it to the side, and we told the guys to go on. They went up towards Church

BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN DIXON FDNY piece of a plane
I continued down Liberty, just west of 10 and 10. As I got down a little farther, there was what looked to be a piece of the cabin of the airplane, I guess. It looked like a piece of it about maybe six foot long. It looked like the windows.
WTC2 a boom, then blast of air, then black
I got just a little ways back and it was just like -- you hear the noise, a boom, and then a blast of air. It just kind of threw
me against the wall. That's where I decided to stay. Since it blew me there.

CAPTAIN RAY GOLDBACH
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110150.PDF
it was Dey or Cortlandt Street. We walked down
that block. It was littered with airplane parts,


ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER JAMES DRURY FDNY airplane debris

(Vessey & Church) You could see airplane parts on the ground and although I didn't realize it at the time, I later realized there were body parts, both on the concourse and on the street. (some of these might have been jumpers) I now made a left on Vesey and walked down
the street on the 7 World Trade Center side, where I could see more airplane debris

EMS CAPTAIN FRANK DAMATO

I parked my car on West Street, right around near, right about, right at the -- almost to the exit of where the Battery Tunnel empties out.
Then actually when I found my car, I found my car like later, later on in the day, but I left it there, because it was not able to be moved because it was covered. There was an airplane tire about 10 feet away from it.

FIREFIGHTER KENNETH ESCOFFRY FDNY WTC2


On the morning of September 11th about 8:45, I was relieved, and a few of us were standing in front of quarters when we noticed a plane came directly over the firehouse maybe around 8:45, somewhere around that time. One of the guys mentioned that the plane looked like it
was really low. Before we could really think of what he said, the next thing we heard an explosion. We saw smoke.


why did so many of the witnesses think the first plane was military plane? Did anyone follow up on the many witnesses about this?

[spooked911]

2. Really interesting finds, thanks.

Here's a map, though I'm sure there are better, this is the first I found:
http://wtc7.net/location.html

If the bodies were indeed from the plane, that would certainly rule out the idea of a plane swap with a drone.

I find it interesting how much large plane debris was on the street, whereas with flight 93, there was hardly any significant debris outside of the crater-- even though there was a large explosion.

[hack89]

3. I don't understand your post..

where do the firefighters cast doubt on what type of aiplane was it?

[philb]

4. Fireman said most reports and plane parts he saw matched military plane

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY FDNY ( airplane was military type & green)

I saw airplane parts on West Street.
Q. How did you know they were airplane parts?
A. It looked like pieces of a plane, skin of a plane. I mean, they weren't really discernible. I couldn't say this was this part of a plane or that was that part. Just knowing a plane had hit the building and I looked and I saw it looked like the skin off a wing or a fuselage or wherever it came from. Q. Clearly not building material?
A. No. The building material was sort of gray and you could see it, you know, how it differed from the plane. I was listening to the tape this morning of the people calling up and they were describing the plane that hit the building. Actually, so many people saw it. They actually described the plane as it came in. They said it was a military-type plane and it was green and it was this. I mean, I never saw the color of the plane.
Several paragraphs blanked out

other firemen described seeing the plane parts near Vessey and West,
including an engine and other parts ; apparently this fireman is basing his conclusion on the color
see previous


I'm not saying there is conclusive or even strong evidence of what type of plane. Just that this fireman and many more in their statements regarding the first plane spoke of small plane or military plane. Did anyone follow up on their reports in these statements and to police?? There names are known. If no followup why not? Or has evidence been released or given 9/11 Commission that makes follow up not relevant? Not that I'm aware of.

[philb]

11. This fireman said he saw an American Airlines plane

LIEUTENANT WILLIAM WALSH
WTC1 airplane
SO EVERYBODY LOOKED UP TO WHERE THEY THOUGHT THEY HEARD THE SOUND COMING FROM. AND WE SAW AN AMERICAN AIRLINES PLANE TO ME IT LOOKED AS THOUGH IT WAS GOING TREETOP LEVEL RIGHT DOWN WEST STREET. THEN HE APPEARED TO RISE LITTLE BIT. WE WERE UNDER THE IMPRESSION HE LOOKED LIKE HE WAS GOING DOWN, BUT WE DIDNT HEAR ANY MECHANICAL DIFFICULTY WE COULDNT FIGURE OUT WHY AN AMERICAN AIRLINES PLANE WOULD BE SO LOW IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN WE SORT OF EXPECTED HIM TO VEER OFF AND GO INTO THE HUDSON. BUT HE JUST ROSE LITTLE BIT HIS ALTITUDE LEVELED OFF AND HE WAS HEADED STRAIGHT FOR THE TRADE CENTER SO JUST BEFORE HE GOT TO THE TRADE CENTER IT SEEMED AS THOUGH HE GAINED POWER. WE WERE JUST WATCHING THIS AIRPLANE ON TARGET FOR THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. ALL OF SUDDEN BOOM HE DISAPPEARS INTO THE TRADE CENTER YOU HEAR THIS SICKENING NOISE AS IF TWO PIECES OF FIBERGLASS HAD HIT YOU HEAR THIS LOUD EXPLOSION. HE JUST DISAPPEARED INTO THE TRADE CENTER YOU COULD SEE HUGE FIREBALL COME OUT FROM WHERE HE HIT. I GUESS IT WAS ABOUT TEN STORIES HIGH OF BROWN SMOKE COMING OUT AND THOUSANDS OF PIECES OF PAPER BEING THROWN THROUGH THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.

[philb]

13. several reported they thought they saw military plane. This one said AA

Is there consensus here regarding who is most credible. This fireman or the one who saw the "green" plane skin.

How likely that the fireman reporting AA plane did so because of TV reports he saw prior to his statement? From the fireman statements it is clear that TV reports they saw after 9/11 influenced their perceptions and statements.


Their names are given here. Did authorities follow up?
And if one is convinced the official story is wrong, why didn't he speak up further?

Was there enough evidence known to authorities that Flight 11 hit WTC1 to be convincing?

If so, why all the mystery regarding the other versions of Flight 11
that are documented in the official records
http://www.flcv.com/index911.html
see AA11

Is there convincing autopsy records that the alleged hijackers were in the plane that hit WTC1? And the passengers of Flight 11?

[philb]

5. Plane near Vessey & West I assume are first plane; ones on Church likely 2

2nd plane- likewise if there were parts on Liberty
is anyone aware of report on Liberty- thought I saw one but don't have it handy.


Is this grouping likely accurate?

Didn't the plane that hit WTC1 come from north?
Vesey& West area is north of WTC1

but Vesey & West is south of WTC1 (I'm not aware of plane parts statement in this area but there might be)

Didn't the WTC2 plane come from south?
Church & Vesey is north of WTC2
and Liberty & Church is south of WTC2

I think the statements described plane parts in all of these areas

[philb]

6. another report of the engine from the first (?) plane at WTC

FIREFIGHTER KEVIN MCCABE

HEADING NORTH ON WEST STREET I’M LOOKING AHEAD I REMEMBER KIND OF LEANING FORWARD AND LOOKING UP AND SEEING THE SMOKE IN THE BUILDINGS. I REMEMBER AT ONE POINT SEEING WHAT LOOKED LIKE PIECE OF AN AIRPLANE. THAT PIECE OF PLANE LOOKED LIKE IT CRUSHED HALF THAT CAR.

[philb]

7. More firemen witnesses to the planes & plane debris

FIRE MARSHAL STEVEN MOSIELLO

Witness to 1st plane crash: prop jet
I was told by somebody that we had an eyewitness who happened to be an off-duty firefighter who told me that he saw the first building get hit
and it was hit by a prop jet, which I think turned out to be the wrong information, but everybody sees things differently. But he said
he was an eyewitness. I gave him to a fire marshal. I never got his name personally.

LIEUTENANT MURRAY MURAD FDNY
fireman witnessed both planes hitting WTC from firehouse on Greenwich and Liberty

It was about 8:41 t h a t we heard a plane hovering over the firehouse. It sounded like the plane
was right on top of us. At that time the captain was upstairs . The captain came out and said : "What's going on? This is a no-fly zone. There should be no planes over here unless this is a military plane, a plane in trouble . " Other than that , there was really no clue .
So about two or three minutes after hearing it, you heard something like revving. We took a look , and, boom, t h e north tower is hit .
I just saw the fire -- the smoke coming out from the top from the north tower. Q. Was there any debris? A. No. Stuff was coming down, but nothing real major.


I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run downstairs and look up, that I saw the second plane strike the south tower. When the second plane hit, it was just a lot of fire, a lot of black smoke. I only saw two people come out. Evidently from the explosion up on those floors they got blown out.

I walked about two, three minutes, and all of a sudden I heard a plane. I said oh, my God, we're being attacked again. Someone said it could have been a B15, a U.S. plane up in the air. Actually, what I think it was, was simultaneously the plane and the north tower coming down. So that's what the sounds were. I heard that rumble.

FIREFIGHTER JAMES MURPHY firefighters see 2nd plane hit

After that I ran up to the roof on the third floor with me and Eric Bernsten. We were watching it. We could see it from here. We have
an unobstructed view. The other guys came up too. All six of us were on the roof.
Then we saw the second one come up. It looked like it was coming up the East River from here. I guess it was coming from the south. I thought it banked over the East River, which is what it looked like. I thought it made a left over the East River and went right into it going
from east to west. But as it turns out, it came from the south. Then we saw it just go right into the building and explode.
I remember talking to Eric. I remember Eric saying something, "Oh, my God, there's another plane." I was saying to him, "That plane is closer to us. It's really not a big plane going towards the building." Two seconds later it rammed into the building.



ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER THOMAS McDONALD pieces of a plane

I believe 8 World Trade Center. We came up, tried to find our way into the courtyard area and we hugged the side of the buildings and it was an overhang that we stayed under. We noticed metal that looked like it came from the plane, in retrospect



FIREFIGHTER HUGH METTHAM debris from plane crash on West at Liberty

IT WAS JUST SOUTH OF LIBERTY ON WEST STREET THAT WE FIRST ENCOUNTERED DEBRIS FROM THE PLANE CRASHES

FIREFIGHTER CRAIG MONAHAN airplane parts on West at Liberty

That was before we got to the south pedestrian bridge, before Liberty Street . You could see airplane parts just littered across the street , across the highway

EMS ROGER MOORE body parts on entering complex at West & Vesey

WHILE WE WERE WALKING WE NOTICED THREE BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE TRADE CENTER THAT THERE WERE BODY PARTS SCATTERED ALL OVER THE ROADWAY AND THAT THERE WERE POLICE OFFICERS TRYING TO SAFEGUARD THE BODY PIECES. Q WERE THEY CIVILIANS OR YOU THINK THEY WERE
FROM THE AIRCRAFT? A. UNKNOWN


FIREFIGHTER KEVIN MURRAY pieces of plane on West at Vesey

We got under the bridge that goes from the FDR into West Street and there was -- it was unbelievable. There was jumpers everywhere, there was bodies everywhere, pieces of plane everywhere.

[philb]

10. Another witness to the planes hitting

EMT-D RALPH RAMOS
Witnessed first plane hit WTC1
We witnessed the first plane hit the first tower. Saw it flying low and we thought, that plane's flying kind of low, and then it hit the building and we went over the radio and we told central that we had witnessed a plane hitting the building.

The second plane hit right over top of us and all the debris started
falling down on top of us

FIREFIGHTER ARTHUR RICCIO

We walked down Vesey Street, and it was like total silence,
nothing. It was eerie. There were police cars all parked on angles, metal going through their hoods. There was a tire of a plane on top of
one.

[philb]

12. Which face of south tower was hit by the plane? East or South?

Which face of north tower? East or North?

a survivor statement of person in South Tower appeared to be indicating the East face of North Tower was hit?

http://www.flcv.com/wtc2surv.html
http://www.flcv.com/wtc1vict.html

[philb]

8. Partial summary of firemen statements on the planes & plane debris at:

http://www.flcv.com/wtcplane.html

[philb]

9. Firefighter witness to second plane first thought it was military plane

BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN OFLAHERTY

JUST THEN OUT OF THE CORNER OF MY EYE COULD SEE THIS PLANE JUST REMEMBER THE DARK IT WAS IN THE SHADOW IT LOOKED LOW THOUGHT WHAT THE HECK IS THE GUY DOING WATCHED IT WATCHED HIM TURN AND CRASH RIGHT INTO THE SOUTH TOWER. I SAID THOUGHT THAT THAT SECOND PLANE THAT WENT INTO THE SOUTH TOWER WAS MILITARY PLANE LIKE TRANSPORT OR SMALL CARGO MILITARY.
THE REASON I THOUGHT THAT I FOUND OUT LATER THE SUN NEVER SHINED OFF IT. IT WAS A DARK COLOR PLANE. IT ENDED UP I FOUND OUT LATER IT WAS WAS UNITED AIRLINES. They PAINT THEIR PLANES DULL GRAY AND BLUE DIDNT SEE ANY SHINE OFF THE PLANE WHEN IT WENT FROM DARK TO SUN.

[philb]

14. I've grouped the firemen statements in category types:

http://www.flcv.com/wtcplane.html