Mike Malloy and conspiracy theory.

[FrankChurch]

I love his show, but sometimes he does encourage badly thought out stories about how Bush planned 9/11 and some such rot. Sure, I think Bush is a criminal, but I do think it is important to base reporting on truthful and well sourced material. Mike is great, but he needs to step it up.

The left is about facts, not rumor. We leave that to the right.

[ret5hd]

1. yeah, but...

what do you think of chavez and castro?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[classof56]

3. Welcome to DU.

The LIHOP/MIHOP schools of thought have been out there for awhile. What about Mike's sources do you take issue with?

Tired Old Cynic

[Algorem]

4. so wher's YOUR facts?

[FrankChurch]

7. Chomsky

Even Noam Chomsky says there is no evidence of this. Start with that.

[Eloriel]

17. Um, well, it depends on what you mean by "evidence."

And Chomsky isn't infallible, you know. Nor does he know everything.

You're likely to be in the minority here if you think it wasn't either LIHOP or MIHOP. I suggest you go digging for a LOT more information. The 9-11 Forum (wherever DU Admin have hidden it) ought to be a good place to start.

[LoZoccolo]

66. "You're likely to be in the minority here..."

Part of the reason I don't believe LIHOP, MIHOP, or the 2004 election fraud thing is the degree to which it's adherents tend to use manipulative tactics like making one feel left out or stupid if they don't believe it. I'm perfectly capable of believing something given the evidence, and do it all the time.

[hiley]

29. How about Howard Zinn?

"David Ray Griffin has done admirable and painstaking research in reviewing the mysteries surrounding the 9-11 attacks. It is the most persuasive argument I have seen for further investigation of the Bush administration's relationship to that historic and troubling event." —Howard Zinn, author of A Peoples History of the United States
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php
snip--
FOREWORD
snip---
Long ago Thomas Jefferson warned that the "price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

There is no excuse at this stage of American development for a posture of political innocence, including an unquestioning acceptance of the good faith of our government. After all, there has been a long history of manipulated public beliefs, especially in matters of war and peace. Historians are in increasing agreement that the facts were manipulated

(1) in the explosion of the USS Maine to justify the start of the Spanish-American War (1898),
(2) with respect to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor to justify the previously unpopular entry into World War II.
(3) in the Gulf of Tonkin incident of 1964, used by the White House to justify the dramatic extension of the Vietnam War to North Vietnam, and, most recently,
(4) to portray Iraq as harboring a menacing arsenal of weaponry of mass destruction, in order to justify recourse to war in defiance of international law and the United Nations.

The official explanations of such historic events as the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the assassination of President Kennedy have also not stood up to scrutiny by objective scholars. In these respects, the breaking of trust between government and citizenry in the United States has deep historical roots, and is not at all merely a partisan indictment of the current leadership associated with the right wing of the Republican Party. But it does pose for all of us a fundamental, haunting question. Why should the official account of 9/11 be treated as sacrosanct and accepted at face value, especially as it is the rationale for some of the most dangerous undertakings in the whole history of the world?

snip--

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

[deutsey]

48. There's also the Operation Northwoods plan in the '60s

designed to ignite a war with Cuba.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

Personally, I'm not entirely convinced of MIHOP or LIHOP, but I do have some very unsettling suspicions.

[Lone_Wolf]

76. I like Chomsky, but David Ray Griffin is THE authority in this area.

Chomsky's colleague, Howard Zinn said this about Griffin's book "The New Pearl Harbor"

"David Ray Griffin has done admirable and painstaking research in reviewing the mysteries surrounding the 9-11 attacks. It is the most persuasive argument I have seen for further investigation of the Bush administration's relationship to that historic and troubling event." -- Howard Zinn

BTW, I follow Chomsky pretty closely and am curious where and when he said that.

[hiley]

85. curious

as well and I would like for the OP to give a link to this statement.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. And when we can get through all the COVERUPS to THE FACTS

we can piece together what REALLY HAPPENED.....

[KyndCulture]

6. rut roh scooby....

You're probably going to find you just kicked a hornets nest with a baseball bat.

Ya might want to be a little more specific with the issues you have.

[seemslikeadream]

8. Don't you know about BUDDY BUDDY?

BUDDY BUDDY
http://www.gsnmagazine.com.nyud.net:8090/images/aug_05/atta.jpg
DO THE MATH

24 MINUTES

THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A MILITARY ORDER

http://www.bushflash.com/buddy.html

[FrankChurch]

12. Facts

Usama Bin Laden admitted to the attacks, the terrorists are on airport camera, the 9/11 commission made it clear what the facts were.

When a legit left publication reports this, then I may bite, but not yet.

[seemslikeadream]

15. Plenty of facts as a matter of fact lots of facts! Able Danger Facts

Plenty of facts as a matter of fact lots of facts! Able Danger Facts

Able Danger is a Pandora's Box
robertpaulsen says Able Danger is Pandora's Box and I believe him



robertpaulsen


Able Danger is a Pandora's Box that will blow up in the RW's face.
Re-open the 9/11 investigation? BRING IT ON! Here's why:

So the responsibility for stopping DIA program Able Danger, which had Identified Atta and 3 other hijackers and linked them to 56 other al-Queda terrorists overseas, has been laid at the feet of Bill Clinton--except he and Richard Clarke were never told about it at all.

That's right. Bill Clinton was never told about Able Danger and the ID of Atta because Richard Clarke was never told about AD. How do I know? He never wrote about it in his book, nor did he testify about it's existence before the 9-11 Commission!

You see Richard Clarke was known for being obsessed with Osama Bin Laden and HE was the guy the neo-con moles did not want to find out about Atta and the gang. Schoomaker and the neo-cons knew telling the FBI would inform Clarke and then Mr. Laser Beam himself, President of the United State William Jefferson Clinton, would have gotten involved--and the Pearl Harbor-type attack would never take place (the neo-cons talked about the need for a Pearl Harbor-type attack before the PNAC Plan would be accepted by the American people--so when one presented itself, they let it happen).

General Pete Schoomaker, who were later heavily rewarded by the neo-cons in the Bush Administration, blocked the upward motion of the DIA information by having Shaffer and Philpott meet with Pentagon lawyers opinions--lawyers who were rubberstamping ridiculous legal opinions to carry out the neo-con plan. These certain people were neo-cons in the Clinton Administration, covertly carrying out the PNAC plan to let a Pearl Harbor-type attack occur so Iraq and 6 other countries could be invaded.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1727804&mesg_id=1727804

[Sparkman]

86. Just because * LET the attacks proceed unimpeded, DOESN"T = conspiracy.

unless it's on purpose!! And that's the rub, how well did the neocon's cover their collective arses?!
They don't mind bombing tens of thousands of Iraqis, risking hundreds of billions of dollars that could curb illness and hunger here & abroad, and directly threaten the lives of 300,000 men & women cycling through the U.S. military Iraq & Afganistan wars. So Hell Yes, nothing makes more sense than for Caesar to risk the empire rather than to admit fiscal ineptitude and governance by lies.

[seemslikeadream]

20. 4-9 September: He meets his US counterparts including CIA Head Tenet

Carefully Planned Intelligence Operation
The 9-11 terrorists did not act on their own volition. The suicide hijackers were instruments in a carefully planned intelligence operation. The evidence confirms that Al Qaeda is supported by Pakistan's military intelligence, the Inter-services Intelligence (ISI). Amply documented, the ISI owes its existence to the CIA:

"With CIA backing and the funnelling of massive amounts of U.S. military aid, the ISI developed into a parallel structure wielding enormous power over all aspects of government....The ISI had a staff composed of military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and informers estimated at 150,000."8

The ISI actively collaborates with the CIA. It continues to perform the role of a ‘go-between' in numerous intelligence operations on behalf of the CIA. The ISI directly supports and finances a number of terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda.

The Missing Link
The FBI confirmed in late September, in an interview with ABC News (which went virtually unnoticed) that the 9-11 ring leader, Mohammed Atta, had been financed from unnamed sources in Pakistan:

"As to September 11th, federal authorities have told ABC News they have now tracked more than $100,000 from banks in Pakistan, to two banks in Florida, to accounts held by suspected hijack ring leader, Mohammed Atta. As well . . . "Time Magazine" is reporting that some of that money came in the days just before the attack and can be traced directly to people connected to Osama bin Laden. It's all part of what has been a successful FBI effort so far to close in on the hijacker's high commander, the money men, the planners and the mastermind."9

The FBI had information on the money trail. They knew exactly who was financing the terrorists. Less than two weeks later, the findings of the FBI were confirmed by Agence France Presse (AFP) and the Times of India, quoting an official Indian intelligence report (which had been dispatched to Washington). According to these two reports, the money used to finance the 9-11 attacks had allegedly been "wired to WTC hijacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan, by Ahmad Umar Sheikh, at the instance of General Mahmoud ." 10 According to the AFP (quoting the intelligence source):

"The evidence we have supplied to the U.S. is of a much wider range and depth than just one piece of paper linking a rogue general to some misplaced act of terrorism." 11

Pakistan's Chief Spy Visits Washington
Now, it just so happens that General Mahmoud Ahmad, the alleged "money man" behind 9-11, was in the U.S. when the attacks occurred. He arrived on the 4th of September, one week before 9-11, on what was described as a routine visit of consultations with his U.S. counterparts. According to Pakistani journalist, Amir Mateen (in a prophetic article published on September 10):

"ISI Chief Lt-Gen. Mahmoud's week-long presence in Washington has triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council. Officially, he is on a routine visit in return to CIA Director George Tenet's earlier visit to Islamabad. Official sources confirm that he met Tenet this week. He also held long parleys with unspecified officials at the White House and the Pentagon. But the most important meeting was with Marc Grossman, U.S. Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. One can safely guess that the discussions must have centred around Afghanistan . . . and Osama bin Laden. What added interest to his visit is the history of such visits. Last time Ziauddin Butt, Mahmoud's predecessor, was here, during Nawaz Sharif's government, the domestic politics turned topsy-turvy within days." 12

Nawaz Sharif was overthrown by General Pervez Musharaf. General Mahmoud Ahmad, who became the head of the ISI, played a key role in the military coup.

Schedule of Pakistan's Chief of Military Intelligence Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad, Washington, 4-13 September 2001


Summer 2001: ISI Chief Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad transfers $100,000 to 9-11 Ringleader Mohamed Atta.

4 September: Ahmad arrives in the US on an official visit.

4-9 September: He meets his US counterparts including CIA Head George Tenet.

9 September: Assassination of General Massood, leader of the Northern Alliance. Official statement by Northern Alliance points to involvement of the ISI-Osama-Taliban axis.

11 September: Terrorist Attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. At the time of the attacks, Lt General Ahmad was at a breakfast meeting at the Capitol with the chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees Sen Bob Graham and Rep Porter Goss. Also present at the meeting were Sen. John Kyl and the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., Maleeha Lodhi.

12-13 September: Meetings between Lt. General Ahmad and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Agreement on Pakistan's collaboration negotiated between Ahmad and Armitage. Meeting between General Ahmad and Secretary of State Colin Powell

13 September: Ahmad meets Senator Joseph Biden, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20020620&articleId=371

[hiley]

21. How sure are you that was actually Bin Laden in that video

admitting to 9/11?
Watch Loose Change, I say again.

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. Oh here we go again with the OSAMA admitted it bullshit....

Two completely different individuals. If you can't see that, I'd recommend a good ophthalmologist.

[hiley]

33. AntiCoup2K4

Thank you for posting that pic!

[AntiCoup2K4]

40. No problem

It disgusts me how many people buy the Chimp Fraudministration's bullshit. I knew the first time they showed that video on TV that it wasn't Bin Laden.

I don't think the "October Surprise" video (which may or may not have tipped the 2004 election) was him either, but at least they put a little more effort into the casting for that one.

[hiley]

52. Seemed obvious to me too.

Also, agree with you on the "October Surprise" video.

[vincent_vega_lives]

125. Oh here we go again with the fat OSAMA bullshit

Google Kidney diseases and treatments of same.

[pauldp]

130. Its the tiny nose that gets me though

Those sure seem like two different noses.

[vincent_vega_lives]

131. The nose is the first to go

A loved one went thru this. Nose shrunk to nothing then blew up to twice it's normal size. Change the whole appearance of the face.

[pauldp]

132. Got any pics?

My dad had kidney disease as well. I know about the weight gain but it's the relative proportions of the nose are different. In the fat Osama photo the nostrils start at the top of the cheeks whereas in the thin Osama the nose is much much longer indicating much more cartilage. Is nose cartilage shrinkage commonly combined with weight gain? I've seen nothing like this when I did searches on kidney disease.




on edit typo

[vincent_vega_lives]

133. No

But cartilage does not shrink or swell, its the tissue around it.

[pauldp]

134. I guess my question is

is it plausible that his face would get fatter yet his nose shrink in length?

[vincent_vega_lives]

136. The nose doesn't shrink

It just looks like it does when compared to the rest of the face due to the swelling.

[pauldp]

137. Then the Fat Osama seems to have a different nose

if you look at the distance from the top of his right nostril to the bottom of the right eyelid it is much longer on the thin Osama. This distance would never change right? fat or thin since the length of a nose cannot shrink because it is made of cartlige and the eyes don't change position. Also The relative proportion of the distance between the eyes to the length of the nose is different in the two photos. These noses are two different lengths. Any figurative sculptor would tell you that as well.

[Kevin Fenton]

127. On camera

You wrote "the terrorists are on airport camera". Actually, that's mostly false. Atta is on airport camera at Portland, as is Alomari, but Alomari showed up alive after the attacks (together with another 5 alleged hijackers), so I guess it wasn't him really. There is no pictoral record of the other eight hijackers at Boston. There are said to be pictures of the 4 hijackers at Newark, but they have not been made public. 4 of the hijackers on American 77 (which hit the Pentagon) are on camera (although one of them showed up alive later as well). The picture of Hani Hanjour at Dulles is clearly not him (unless he put on 100 pounds in 2 days) and there's no record of him checking in at Dulles either (even according to the 9/11 Commission). Hanjour wasn't even on the original list of hijackers - his place there was taken by one Mansour Khaled, who then disappeared from the manifest altogether.

Al Qaeda also tried to hijack at least one more plane that day (United 23 out of Boston bound for LA), but when the plane returned to the gate, the would-be hijackers ran away. These people have never even been named. What gives?

[ClassWarrior]

9. So you're all for a fair investigation into what really happened on 9/11?

NGU.

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. Of course, but can we get such a thing?

40 years after the fact, I'm still hoping for a REAL investigation of the JFK murder.

[Sparkman]

94. J.F.K. & CIA ops from Angola to Nicaragua, don't hold your breath.

[hiley]

10. Maybe you should open your mind some and watch this..

McKinney's 9/11 Hearings To Be Broadcast on C-SPAN Aug. 31 & Sep. 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4495578
and this...


http://www.911wasalie.com/phpwebsite/

[mshasta]

11. "rumors"

there is no "rumors"...search for the facts..for the truth..911-inside job.

[FrankChurch]

13. Middle America

This doesn't help the left. Middle America will turn off on the left because of stuff like this. We have enough problems.

[hiley]

18. biggest problem is the lies of 9/11 and PNAC

Read
THE NEW PEARL HARBOR
Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11
by David Ray Griffin
foreword by Richard Folk

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

[mshasta]

19. asking a simple question who and why?

is a must, to question the authority …:)

[renie408]

28. I agree with you

Just thought I would throw that in here. You are NOT going to be feeling the love here from too many other people on this one.

Any ole body can say that the DLC is an evil arm of the GOP out to destroy the Democratic Party from within and nobody will really flame them.

But try to say that accusing the Bush Administration of staging 9/11 in a well thought out secret plot to get the country to back an invasion of Iraq might be going too far and people go apeshit. Weird, huh?

[Eloriel]

34. Well, THAT"s a great reason to abandon the search for the truth

or discussing it: Let those ignorant of the issues control the discussions. Yeah, I like it.

[renie408]

38. There is a difference

between 'abandoning the search for the truth' and assuming a truth that has yet to be proven and promoting that as fact. Especially a truth that sounds as wild as this.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

104. How about abandoning or searching for a lie?

Especially a lie as equally "wild."


The official story is actually quite plausible. Terrorists, upset at generations of American hegemony, strike back.

The unofficial story is equally plausible. Greedy, money-sucking bastards would do anything to secure their positions of power and wealth.

History is replete with both examples.

Where does that leave us?

Look at the players. Follow the money. And ask "Cui bono?"


The funny thing is is that both partys benefit.

I suspect that both stories are half-truths.

[petgoat]

120. "Follow the money. And ask "Cui bono?"" And look at the coverups.

The 9/11 Commission decided that the source of funds "was of little practical significance."

Everyone in the 9/11 Commission had conflicts of interest except
Max Cleland, and he resigned, calling the investigation a "scam".

[Vickers]

14. Thank Gawd he ain't runnin' the country, huh?

Mike Malloy, I mean. :rofl:

[hiley]

23. If Mike Malloy run this country

it would not be so fucking corrupt.

[Vickers]

27. You missed my joke, but I agree with your sentiment

:toast:

[hiley]

37. Vickers sorry for not getting it..

hard core Malloy fan, you know.
:toast:

[LisaM]

16. What is your SPECIFIC beef?

other than "some such rot"? Which show was this and what exactly did Mike Malloy say?

[seemslikeadream]

24. Frank where are you come back I'd like to talk with you some more?

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. The true irony of this thread is that the REAL Frank Church....

....probably would have been all over this 9-11 coverup shit.

[renie408]

35. No...Really...

Are we really trying to say that BushCo staged 9/11?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan, but this seems a little...bizarre...to me. I think they are bad people. I think they probably were dancing in the Oval Office (well, as soon as they stopped hiding after it happened) over the fact that they had been handed their 'Pearl Harbor'. But you guys have to pick. Either they are incompetent morons or they are incredibly crafty evil masterminds. They can't be both. Hey, they can even be evil incompetent morons. But they can't be smart enough to do this and not smart enough to plant WMD in Iraq to justify the war.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petgoat]

121. Incompetent or Crafty? Why not both? If 9/11 was MIHOP don't you

think that anyone loony enough to conceive of the scheme would be loony enough to screw it up too?


"They can't be smart enough to do this and not smart enough to plant WMD
in Iraq to justify the war."

Could be they planned to, and then found that chemicals can be traced
and there would be no way to fake the WMD credibly.

[yojon]

26. Mike is just getting started on conspiracies...

FC-

I think that if you don't accept the hypothesis that BushCo at least consciously allowed it to happen then there are a whole bunch of things that suddenly become unexplainable.

I can think of a few:

- The failure of fighter jets to scramble in a timely manner
- Bush's bizarre comments at the school about already knowing it happened
- That twitchy look on Bush's face in the schoolroom as shown on F911
- Cheney's failure to have the terrorism subcommittee meet even once
- The air traffic controllers destruction of the tapes
- Bush's ignoring of the Aug 6 finding about "Bin Lauden determined to strike..."

The motive is clearly stated in the PNAC document you can find on the web. They needed a 'new Pearl Harbor' to galvanize public opinion to allow them to invade Iraq.

Now if you want conspiracies, consider this:
- Prescott's funding of the Nazi war machine
- The ties between nazis and the Saudi's (particularly the Islamic Brotherhood)
- The influence of Grover Norquist on policy - Grover is one of the founders of the Islamic Institute.
- The dissolution of Operation Green Quest (the Treasury Dept's program to investigate Islamic funding sources) after the intercession of Grover and Talath Othman with Bush. Shortly after this intercession, Paul O'Neil (the Sec Treas) was fired. Talath Othman is an inflential Islamist, he gave one of the prayers at the Repug Convention. He is on the Board of Al Taqua, one of the banks that has been funding these guys.

Frank- this conspiracy is much scarier that what Mike is describing.

btw: if you want to check into the Nazi-911 connection, go to www.spitfirelist.com

[renie408]

32. I think all that can be explained by the fact that...

they are a bunch of royal fuckups. I mean, look at how they have handled the war. If the were smart enough to get away with staging 9/11, then why haven't they done a better job of running the war they got out of it? The vast majority of the country thinks they are idiots and they are starting to lose their own party.

[Mr Rabble]

50. What makes you sure this isnt what they want?

NOBODY could possibly be this incompetant. The handling of the war has to be chaos by design. Has to be. Not even * could fuck up this many times.

[petgoat]

122. "the war has to be chaos by design."

Sure, then * gets to be the "War President" of the never-ending war.

The notion that PNAC wants a never-ending civil war (or the illusion of
one) to justify never-ending US occupation of Iraq and administration of
the oil business in the absence of any viable Iraqi government makes
perfect sense to me.

[yojon]

78. no no

they did just fine running the war. Their goal was not to win the war but to rake off as much money as they can. Look at all the billions unaccounted for. Look at the no bid Halliburton contracts. Look at the whistle blowers (eg Bunny Greenhouse) getting fired.

The war is going just according to plan! Ask Cheney's personal banker!

[stickdog]

135. THEY ARE WAR PROFITEERS!!!

Exactly how are they fucking themselves up by dumping the US Treasury into their pockets?

[mshasta]

36. indeed....

.....-this conspiracy is much scarier that what Mike is describing.---


as well as those poll numbers...they need to bring them up some how..:scared:

[benburch]

30. I have something for you, Frank!

http://members.aol.com.nyud.net:8090/fistwomen/fist.gif

[FrankChurch]

39. Reality land, folks.

I am not mad at Mike, but he does let callers get away with those crazy theories.

When the Nation, or Robert Fisk, Greg Palast, or some legit source backs this up, then I can believe.

Logistically, planning the attack by Bush would be nearly impossible. It would of been reported by even the mainstream media, by now.

Bush would have to be a monster, like Hitler. Sure, Bush is a creep, but evil, I doubt.

Bush is a horrible President, that is his crime.

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. Bush doesn't have to be a monster. He's just the frontman.

It's PNAC who are the monsters.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fujiyama]

99. I'm curious, how is it anti semitic

to oppose the neocon PNAC agenda?

[renie408]

45. Don't forget the DLC!!

Those evil bastards!!

[AntiCoup2K4]

64. Yes they are

But that's a subject for other threads.

[CANDO]

68. BINGO!

Bush is simply the front man for this whole operation. He was told to some degree what to do and not, but this was a Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfowitz operation. That, in a nutshell, explains this entire administration. You can tell a lot about the guy because he just comes alive when it comes to campaigns, but on serious day to day governance and policy, he is clueless.

[yojon]

79. Exactly!

That's why Bush cant fire Rummy. It would be like Charlie McCarthy firing Edgar Bergen

[renie408]

43. Sorry, Frank

Reality is not nearly as fun as a good conspiracy theory.

[FrankChurch]

46. The sad fact is...

...we have enough on Bush. You don't have to make up anything.

[renie408]

49. That's pretty much where I'm at...

Who needs a conspiracy theory when the simple stuff is bad enough? Jeez, its not as if you have to HUNT for stuff on Bush. They just throw it right out there.

Anyway, like I said before, you can't have it both ways. Either they are rigid, uncompromising, incompetent assholes or they are incredibly foresightful evil geniuses.

I am guessing the first thing. If somebody could come up with some credible evidence reported from a reliable source, I would be open to hearing it. But a lot of the stuff listed so far looks pretty much like what Bush did when he was trying to justify going into Iraq. It looks like suiting the facts to the theory.

[Sparkman]

97. Knowing the plans were in the works, and ALLOWING the attack-are the same

And who has benefitted...the Oil industry is at $7 Billion net for '05, up from $27Billion total in '04.
War profiteers and neocons still love all this military gun boat diplomacy, and the prospect of unending war.
Who loses? Low Level soldiers in the sands of the middle east and the left who don't benefit from the scare tactics all this generates.
More grinding, more military, more business.
Just one question...there's a documentary on the facts of 911 from the viewpoint of a conspiracy, have you seen it? Can't remember title.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

83. I needed a laugh!

And you gave me one.

Perhaps you would explain to the nice folks here what you think I communicated???


Hmmmm?

[FrankChurch]

41. Answer Coalition

I bet the Marxist creeps of this organization are pushing this stuff.

Ramsey Clark should just go away.

[hiley]

47. What?!

Ramsey Clark should just go away??
What exactly is wrong with Ramsey Clark?
You are jumping all over the place..

[FrankChurch]

51. Clark is friends with Saddam

He actually defends the terrorists, just not Bush. He is on Hussein's defense team, or once was. He is a rigid Marxist, on the brink of being even more radical then Castro.

[seemslikeadream]

54. Do you have a picture of Saddam with Clark?

[hiley]

61. LOL!

:rofl:

[hiley]

57. Everyone has to have and deserves a defense attorney

even Saddam.
Ramsey Clark and Castro... radical, huh?
:P Guess you can tell I don't agree with you at all.

[seemslikeadream]

53. Franky, Franky, Franky

You are a wonderful source of amusement

[FrankChurch]

55. Nothing amusing about it.

Chomsky is as radical as they come, and even he calls Clark a kook. Notice, Clark has never been a guest on Air America.

He is another kook like Ward Churchill.

[Ignoramus]

58. Judging ideas based on who said them

is not reasonable.

Maybe some more meat with your potatoes of knowledge would be helpful to the discussion?

[hiley]

59. You are hilarious! Chomsky is as radical as they come LOL!

Now you are going to start on Ward Churchill, please.
Since when is Air America the rule of who is worth a shit?
I think for myself, maybe you should try that sometime Frank....

[seemslikeadream]

60. Ward Churchill didn't say

Ward Churchill didn't say
Ward Churchill didn't say this: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building" or this: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." That was the noted humanitarian Ann Coulter.

Ward Churchill didn't say this: "Covert action should not be confused with missionary work." That was Nobel Peace Laureate, Henry Kissinger

Ward Churchill didn't say this: "Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country" or this: "Democracy has justified itself by keeping for the white race the best portions of the earth's surface." That was Mount Rushmore's own, Teddy Roosevelt.

Ward Churchill didn't say this: "The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today," or this: "Communism was the brainchild of German-Jewish intellectuals," or this: "The Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." That was political power broker and God's best friend, Pat Robertson.

Ward Churchill didn't say this: "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty; we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." That was the very holy Randall Terry, founder of "Operation Rescue," speaking to a like-minded audience.

Ward Churchill didn't say this: "Racism isn't holding blacks back, it's their own laziness!" That was Bill Cosby (net worth: $540 million).
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=3...

[mshasta]

56. lol...

:argh:

[windbreeze]

116. Please...could we spell

Richard Clarke's name right....CLARKE not CLARK...

and let me add this...Operation Northwoods...was NO conspiracy theory..it was an actual plan...do we think it was forgotten?
There are too many unanswered questions about 9/11...and until they ARE answered...there will be conspiracy theories...and I for one, cannot get over * trying to throw barriers in the way of the investigaton..or blacking out 28 pages of the report...someone, or many someones have something to hide...WHAT??

How about Marvin Bush..being head of security for the WTC...and quitting just before 9/11??? again, too many unanswered questions for me to accept the "official" story...
Thanks...

[vincent_vega_lives]

126. Actually it wasn't

It was a proposal for a plan. And didn't involve crashing an airliner full of civilians.

[Catherine Vincent]

62. Where in the heck did this come from?

:crazy:

[genius]

65. Bush did plan 9/11. There is proof. Don't put it down without looking at

the evidence. Watch the video, "Confronting the Evidence."

[LoZoccolo]

67. Mike Malloy as a radio host is overall a kooky demagogue.

He gets paid to say things a certain bunch of people want to hear. He's basically the Ann Coulter of the left, and an embarassment to AAR.

But arguing this with the "truth seekers" is generally a futile exercise.

[hiley]

72. The Ann Coulter of the left?

Oh my, what a disgusting statement that is..
Did AAR tell that Mike Malloy was an embrassment or did you just make that up yourself?

[genius]

74. It certainly isn't a comment one would expect

at a place labeled "democratic underground."

[hiley]

75. one would think so

but I am shocked constantly around here..

[LoZoccolo]

82. I bet Dennis Kucinich would probably agree with me.

So would the guy who you voted for.

Before you ask a stupid question, I voted for him too.

[LoZoccolo]

80. And I should care what you think because?

If I thought it was disgusting I wouldn't have said it. And I still don't.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

89. What does "peg hole yourself" mean?

Please advise.

[hiley]

91. Tell me why should you care

if you can not figure it out yourself?

[LoZoccolo]

92. That's all I need to know. n/t

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiley]

108. That is not what I meant by the phrase at all

so no need for you to translate for me.
I meant the attacks on Mike Malloy are telling and it seemed easy to figure out to me..
Comparing him to Ann Coulter is ridiculous and I stand by that statement.

[LoZoccolo]

You had your chance to explain.

Oh well.

[hiley]

114. Oh well kooky demagogue and the left's Ann Coulter

still falls into category as before.....
Since you feel so strongly about Mike Malloy tell him why don't you?

Closed mind will keep people ignorant of facts.
Watch Loose Change or read The New Pearl Harbor and maybe you will see something is going on way bigger than you realized.
Also try this link, loads of information should take a while but it is quite worth it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=54081&mesg_id=54191

http://www.911closeup.com/
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050204132153814#top
The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie
Tuesday, 24 May 2005, 2:26 pm
Opinion: www.UnansweredQuestions.org
by Dr. David Ray Griffin
9/11 Visibility Project
Sunday, May 22, 2005

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0505/S00295.htm

[benburch]

111. I think we've all encountered this person before, Hiley.

Back when Andy was being attacked.

[hiley]

112. Remember him well...

it is boring isn't it?

[benburch]

115. Beyond boring...

Especially how he thinks he is so clever.

He has a rich fantasy life.

[hiley]

118. I've noticed that.

:wtf:

[benburch]

110. You give yourself away, as usual.

And how is Toronto this fine August?

[genius]

73. And which side are you on?

[LoZoccolo]

81. Either with us or against us?

See? I told you he was the Ann Coulter of the left!

[hiley]

87. Mike Malloy did not say either with us or against us...

that would be george w. the dictator

[LoZoccolo]

90. And "genius" as well, apparently.

Yes, we either believe MIHOP and a host of other kooky things Mike asserts in his nightly circle-jerk to dramatic effect, or we are Republicans.

[hiley]

96. That is twisted logic.

Mike Malloy still did not say You are either with us or against us or that anyone who disagrees is a Republican.

Closed mind will keep people ignorant of facts.
Watch Loose Change or read The New Pearl Harbor and maybe you will see something is going on way bigger than you realized.

[FreedomAngel82]

70. If you haven't you should check out the PNAC plans

Check out the ties BinLaden has to the CIA. There's all types of facts to back up what Malloy says. Check out http://www.reopen911.org This is the best 9/11 site in my opinion. You can read about the PNAC plans at http://www.newamericancentury.org and also http://www.pnac.info Also, go to http://www.informationclearinghouse.info There's a lot of good films on there. I suggest you watch the film "The Carlyle Group."

[spaniard]

77. The left is about facts? Depends on how far left you go

...go far enough and you run smack dab into the far right - and they ain't about facts, either.

Malloy? The left's Michael Savage.

[Sparkman]

88. How many will the U.S. imprision to quell descent & protect the pharmaceut

ical companies...more than any other country by percentage OR absolute numbers.
HOW many homeless, hungry or sick & dying that can't afford heart or kidney or hospital care WOULD THE 500 BILLION $$ HELP W/O HIS IRAQ WAR?!
they will do ANYTHING, like Caesar, to imperil the empire, so long as they don't loose the reins of power. War Profiteers and the neocons and the Bush Oiligarchy DEMAND wars....eternal wars, on drugs(failed from the core)on Communists(main money earner of the war industry), and now on threats "domestic & foreign" (just like the Nazi propagandists of the 1920's & 30's & 40's).
So please, the only aspect of the 911 attacks that makes sense, is that it happened on the neocons re-entry in power and that we no longer pursue Bin Laden or the Saudis. Is it me, or is it hot in here?

[spaniard]

95. I dunno. Why do you ask me?

[Sparkman]

101. just to shift focus from what are the best documented controversies, to

what are the historical events that at the time defied detection by the press, the two major parties.
There is a 911 documentary that was on UHF channels (regular TV ), I can't remember the title, that showed an hour of unexplained facts and outright lies surrounding the pentagon destruction, the 4th building next to the twin towers in NY, the eye witnesses and the photographs that dispute our understanding of 911. It included the melt temps of the towers structure, the strange shape of one of the "passenger planes" that hit the towers, and the size of the hole in the pentagon as well as the lack of wreckage correlated to known physics of crash remains. If you haven't seen this type of treatise, please look for it. This old brain fails to generate data on demand, so I appologize, but the documentary is out there.
Conspiracies don't have to be planned, just an agreement to allow bad things to proceed w/o intervention.

[spaniard]

102. I haven't said anything about Malloy's message...

...only his technique.

[Sparkman]

107. oh. OK, oughtasight.

[springhill]

98. Excuse me................

While Mike may be vehment in his views, he is not a liar. And he is not a racist. God, what is wrong with you? If you can't see the difference between hating someone because of who they are vs. hating someone because of the damage they are doing to this country, then I give up.

[spaniard]

100. Did anyone say he was a racist and a liar?

Noooo...

But his "shock" technique is the same as Savage's.

[Geek_Girl]

93. I tend to believe the MIHOP theory

But I haven't seen any hard evidence or smoking gun yet. There are just too many weird coincidences that point in that direction to be ignored or dismissed. But I do agree that maybe commentators and journalist should present it as a possible cause of 9/11 or a theory instead of absolute fact.

[fujiyama]

103. It is important to have a full investigation of what led up to

and happened on 9/11, but the problem is, it's difficult to find someone objectively researching it...and what makes it frustrating is that this government has been stonewalling any sort of investigation since the attack occured.

The closest I found on the internet was cooperative research. The site avoids making conclusions but takes a "just the facts ma'm" approach, using sources from mainstream sources.

You have to realize that with what Bush has done over the years including the war itself, it's not difficult for many to believe he was behind 9/11. It was in a sense, the day he became president. What is is obvious is that he allowed 9/11 to occur inspite of enough evidence to stop it. For that itself he should have been impeached. But I do agree that to say he actually planned it requires a higher burden of proof.

[hiley]

106. Complete 911 Timeline

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=2001%20-%200:05am%2011%20Sept%202001

[windbreeze]

119. The question remains....

WHO has benefitted the most from 9/11? follow the money...
Who has used it to justify everything since? Who's mantra did Iraq/9/11 become?
I would have to believe * has a brain to believe he planned it...but...he has advisors/planners. All he had to do was authorize a plan, someone else came up with, (and there still is no explanation for the non reaction he displayed in that classroom)......He has men around him that have been involved in gov't workings for decades...Some that have been around since Kennedy...and were aware of other things that came about during that time frame...(early 60's-ON)
Is there any truth to Cheney not taking commercial flights for a week prior?
Is there any truth to Jeb declaring a state of emergency in Fla..4 days prior?
Is there any truth to the story that B went to Nebraska and met Warren Buffett for a previously arranged luncheon date on 9/11, after the attacks?

too many questions...not enough answers...
wb

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windbreeze]

117. Just perusing this...and wonder

Have you included the story of the 14 people in the basement of the WTC...that survived to tell about bombs they heard go off...before the buildings fell...and the law suit they brought? Rodriguez..I believe the name is...and if I dig, I believe I can come up with the law suit filed..by an Attorney in Pa...
How about the 154 people that were rounded up and spirited out of this country..(a top agency has admitted it happened, after denying it)...on Sept 14th...who were the people spirited out?? Meanwhile our airlines weren't allowed to fly, for almost a week after..
Wasn't Atta's wallet found at the base of the WTC..in near perfect condition..??
The Sr. BinLadens/Sr.Bush were at the annual meeting of the Carlyle Group, at the Ritz Carlton in DC on the morning of 9/11..
oh, there IS definitely more to this story....and this didn't happen w/o someone knowing a whole lot more than what's been said so far...
windbreeze

[petgoat]

123. You're talking about Rodriguez v. Bush, the Philip Berg lawsuit.

Berg was former assistant attorney general to the state of Pennsylvania.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/

Another important site has the 9/11 familiy members' ratings of the 9/11
Commission's responses to their questions:

http://www.justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_111904.php

[Sparkman]

124. Too much. No, really, these issues require much exposure, and right now...

by a commission or panel of investigators.

[pox americana]

113. Chomsky is no engineer.

He might teach at MIT, but he teaches linguistics, and he's pretty much a one-trick pony. Good intentions maybe, but he's a shill for his bosses, whoever they are.

[vincent_vega_lives]

128. And I suppose you are? (n/t)

[pox americana]

129. Either Chomsky knows zip about structures or he's lying.

Take your pick:

"The simple reason why I presume that the official story is probably true is that it seems to me by far the most credible one."

http://blog.zmag.org/index.php/weblog/entry/the_official_911_story/