Why is the "Sibel Edmonds is Talking" thread Locked?

[Tim Howells]

"Lithos" says that it uses a source (antiwar.com) that
Democratic Underground considers biased. This seems
ridiculous on the face on it. In any case, the
relevant info in the interview quotes come directly
from Sibel Edmonds who is frequently cited here.

C'mon Lithos, what's going on here?

Tim Howells

[spooked911]

1. Antiwar.com tends to be harsh on Israel, but they are hardly

a racist site or a hate site. They are libertarians.

This is ridiculous.

[carlvs]

2. I don't know...

Maybe because it was dealing with a long debunked story that the Israelis were directly involved in 9/11.

But then again, the CTers here seem to love to link to stories from sites that are either blatantly anti-Semitic (American Free Press) or link to web sites that contain this type of garbage (arcticbeacon.com) :puke:

[delver]

4. what is the opposite of a "CTer" ?

Israel may not have been involved, but they did warn us:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4520953&mesg_id=4520953

Accusing "CTers" of being associated with hate groups (the proferred one is of course anti-semitism) is one of the most commonly used tactics of those who don't want to deal with the facts. It is an underhanded and dishonest debating tactic. Those are two questionable sources that you mention, for sure. But there are scores of others that cannot be tainted by accusations of anti-semitism.

I hope you can open your mind enough to look at evidence and facts even if they challenge your core assumptions.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[carlvs]

6. I believe I did

And shame on you for demanding that the moderators here allow what is clearly a piece of anti-Semitic crap! :puke:

[Tim Howells]

7. Nonsense.

Again you refuse to even address the original
post. This is the typical M.O. of those who cannot
back up their beliefs with evidence or logic.
Sibel Edmonds has been judged highly credible even
by the FBI itself in its own IG investigation.
What evidence do you have that her statements are in
any way at all touched by antisemitism. The only
reason that SE is not in jail is because she can has
documentary proof for each and every statement she has
made. No one has ever disputed the fact that she is
telling the truth.

Tim Howells

[StrafingMoose]

19. Lemme guess, that's carlvs which I already added to my ignore list?

He probably thinks posting things so innaccurate that alternative researchers or even the official theory doesn't corroborate them is "activism" therefore feels very good about it.

[demodewd]

21. you refute?

So you refute the possibility that there is an influential zionist element in the neo-con political structure?

[paineinthearse]

3. I had a similar experience with a post based on Capitol Hill Blue

I feel if the source site is referenced, we are mature enough to weigh if the information is credible or not.

[Henny Penny]

17. I agree 100%. .....

Many of the banned sites are merely reproducing articles and interviews from elsewhere.

If someone posts soemthing racist etc then by all means remove the post, but it is crazy to lock threads linking to these banned sites unless they are being used to support stories in LBN.

edited for typo.

[Informed Citizen]

8. Just deal with it

They have a zero tolerance policy. They won't debate it with you. Drop it, or go somewhere else. There are plenty of sites that don't make critical remarks about Israel and Jewish people that we can turn to when investingating 9/11, and any site that does is not one our core resourses. I only wish they drew a line between being anti-semitic, and critical of Israel. But, as I said, they aren't going to bend on this one. Go get your info somewhere else. The Sibel Edmonds stuff can be found in a lot of places. Don't push too hard or they might just kick you off.

- I.C.

[seemslikeadream]

9. Antiwar.com has been linked many many times in GD

[Informed Citizen]

10. Maybe things have changed (nt)

[seemslikeadream]

12. I just saw it a couple of days ago

[Informed Citizen]

11. Or maybe its this...

"TERRORIST NUCLEAR SMUGGLING BY THE ISRAELIS" ???

I don't know where you got this story, but its crap. Even if the info it contains is useful to you, the source is obviously got a chip on their shoulder about Israel, and should be looked at critically.

I encourage you to be as critical of sites as the folks at DU are. They might be more specific than you. But thinly veiled racism is everywhere.

And, the participation of Israel is not a key part of the 9/11 inquiry except in reference to helpful warnings given to the U.S. government about the attack, that were ignored.

Just be more selective. Pull excerpts out of articals rather than linking to them.

- I.C.

[Tim Howells]

13. This is well documented

See the excellent article by Josh Meyer in the LA Times:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6247.htm

Sibel Edmonds states that this nuclear smuggling ring is
closely tied to the September 11 attacks. It was being
run by Zeki Bilmen, a Jewish Turk with close ties to
Israel (according to Edmonds), and by Asher Karni, who
is described as a highly religious orthodox Jew. They
were selling nuclear weapons grade material to Iran,
Pakistan, and Libya among other countries.

Several people have speculated that the Neocons and their
allies actually FAVOR nuclear proliferation to the Arab
states because this could then be used to justify nuclear
attacks by the US on these countries. Of course in the
forseeable future even if these States get some nuclear
capability (which Pakistan already possesses), they will
be no match for the United States. If Edmonds is correct
and these people were also behind 911, then obviously they
will not shrink from the risk that they may cause a devastating
terrorist attack against the United States to occur.

Tim Howells

[Informed Citizen]

15. WARNING: POSSIBLE 9/11 DISINFORMATION

She is not quoted in the story you refer to!?! This fact makes me think that you are trying to slader her name. You must provide evidence to support the fact that Edmonds has ever talked about this issue. If you do not I will assume that your intentions are not positive, and I will post a message directly refuting what you say.

- I.C.

[cascadiance]

16. She is no more anti-Turkish than she is anti-Israeli...

No more than we are Anti-American for wanting criminals in our government exposed and put out of business. If you want a reference where she references this article, try this interview with Chris Deliso...

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=6934

...

SE: Sure. And then it gets sent everywhere, through other companies in other cities, other front companies under different owners or even different branches of the same company. They could be anywhere, Denver, Detroit, San Diego, and everywhere in between.

CD: It sounds very sophisticated.

SE: Oh, it's so sophisticated and so big, you can't imagine… and not only can they bring the stuff in, they can send it out. And do you think for a second the government doesn't know?

CD: Can you give any specific examples of such an operation?

SE: Well, not from my case, but there is quite a lot of public information about such things. A good example was the piece in the L.A. Times –

CD: The black-market nuclear parts one?

SE: Yes, by Josh Meyer. From last year. That article gives a very good example of how such a scheme works.

CD: But that report came out of an official government investigation taking apart the smuggling ring, right?

SE: Yes it did, but that doesn't mean the business was ended.

...

--------------

Please, let's not censor anti-war.com articles just because some articles come out that might be embarassing to some Israelis over there. There are a lot of governments being embarassed now with the infiltration of what appears to be this large mafia-style operation. That doesn't mean those printing these articles are motivated by racism. I lived in Turkey myself for five years as a kid. I have many Turkish friends. Does that mean I want the stuff about her allegations of Hastert's to be silenced as "anti-Turkish"? Hell no! We need to know where our government is being infiltrated and bought off or we lose our democracy. Don't let them keep running us through fear and distraction!

[Tim Howells]

18. The reference is in the original thread which was locked

But in the first place, how am I slandering her name?
Sibel Edmonds is a great patriot. She is trying her
very best to get the truth out about September 11 and
related issues which are of the greatest importance.

Re the reference - Her comments are from an interview
with Chris Deliso. Here are the direct quotes re the
Nuclear terrorist smuggling being conducted by Asher
Karni - a devout orthodox Israeli Jew, and Zeki Bilmen -
a Jewish Turk with close ties to Israel. (CD is Chris Deliso,
SE is Sibel Edmonds).

================================

CD: Can you give any specific examples of such an operation?
are implicated in September 11]

SE: Well, not from my case, but there is quite a lot of public information about such things. A good example was the piece in the L.A. Times –

CD: The black-market nuclear parts one?

SE: Yes, by Josh Meyer. From last year. That article gives a very good example of how such a scheme works.

CD: But that report came out of an official government investigation taking apart the smuggling ring, right?

SE: Yes it did, but that doesn't mean the business was ended.

CD: No?

SE: I think one of the guys involved, Asher Karni, got a short sentence. But the other guy, the big guy, Zeki Bilmen? He got off completely – nothing.

CD: How?

SE: It's beyond logical explanation. Maybe it was decided in high places that no one would touch him.

CD: And we're talking about people who are trading in nuclear black-market goods with terrorists and countries like Pakistan?

SE: And anyone else who's willing to pay, for that matter. Zeki Bilmen is Turkish, but of Jewish background. He has a company, Giza Technologies in New Jersey, and everyone who works there is Turkish. He's worked closely with the Israelis. And business – well, business is good.

They have many shipments going out, coming in, all day long. To places like Dubai, Spain, South Africa, Turkey. They have branches in all these places. Yep, they're sailing along very smoothly.

CD: So if we are talking about suspected nuclear proliferators here, how can the government be protecting them when at the same time they're talking about Iran or North Korea having nuclear weapons?

SE: Exactly! You tell me!

[Informed Citizen]

22. Not quite...

The reason your original post should have been locked, was that your title was wrong, and inappropriate. At this point we can't prove who was responsible for the events of 9/11, although all fingers point to specific members of the U.S. government. While the participation of Isrealis is not necessarily unlikely, even proof of this would not be adequate to suggest that the Isreali government or the Mossad had participated. It is therefore quite inappropriate for you to make such a inflammatory remark. Keep in mind that blaming the Jews for 9/11 is the number one way that the 9/11 truth movement is stigmatized by those who want to undermine our efforts. Many infiltrators have tried to suggest that the 9/11 truth movement is allied with anti-semitic groups that believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by Isreal, or with Isreal's cooperation. This is unacceptable. You don't know who was responsible, so don't suggest that you do. And very definately don't go blaming anyone until you have adeqate reason to do so. The interview which you have quoted has nothing to do with 9/11, and yet your title does, and you've posted this at DU9/11. Very suspect behavior. Also, Sibel Edmonds has never indicated that she believes that Isreal was responsible for 9/11. Your post suggests in an indirect manner that she holds this view. This is unacceptable. Please be more careful and specific in the future.

- I.C.

[Tim Howells]

23. OK - that's fair.

I don't agree that the original post should have been
locked, but I see your point. The subject line was oversimplified.
This is often necessary, but in this case, since this is such
a sensitive issue I should have avoided a subject line with
potentially inflammatory implications.

However, it does certainly look as though Sibel Edmonds'
information will implicate the Neocons and apparently
Israeli based organized crime groups who are tied to
and protected by the Neocons. I know perfectly well that
this will shock and alienate many people, but anyone who
really wants to get to the truth about September 11 at
this point will have to accept this possibility. In any
case, if we are not reviled as anti-semites we will
certainly be reviled as anti-american, and there is
nothing we can do about this in either case except to
hold fast to the truth and be tough.

At long-last Sibel Edmonds is naming names:

1) Douglas Feith - OK this was supposedly in a hypothetical
context, but certainly she did not pick THAT particular name
at random - Feith is a rabid Zionist and a leading neocon.

2) Zeki Bilmen - by Edmonds' account a Jewish Turk with strong
ties to Israel who is involved in nuclear weapons smuggling to
potential and actual terrorist organizations.

3) Asher Karni, a highly religious orthodox Jew involved in the
Zeki Bilmen smuggling ring.

So you are right - we don't know for sure who was behind
September 11 - but it is getting easier to connect the dots.

Tim Howells

[cascadiance]

14. If you all want to have links that don't get buried too heavily on Sibel..

and other whistleblowers, go to the newer Du forum "Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers" and post stuff there. Not a lot of traffic yet, and I"ve been meaning to get more historical link threads put in there for some time (hopefully get the mods to pin these sort of "FAQ" threads then).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=344

As I noted in another thread posted today. You can bypass antiwar.com to get the mp3s of Scott Horton's interviews for a lot of whistleblower stuff at:

http://www.weekendinterviewshow.com/

[Dancing_Dave]

20. Anti-war dot com is biased the same way as most progressive Democrats

The are biased AGAINST STARTING IMPERIALIST WARS.

More power to them on that principled stand!

[cascadiance]

24. Here's another link from Armenian folks that gives us more Hastert info...

... and also some AIPAC involvement too, that I posted yesterday go GD, but with the level 3 status of the board, and the other issues going on, etc. quickly got buried.

I think it is a valid concern that we shouldn't be overly "inflamatory" in our subject lines for threads that state something that our reference material does not. It's hard sometimes to "attribute" comments to a biased source without taking away from the actual subject. I tried to do this yesterday, as some might say that the Armenian source was a biased source too (against Turks). Be careful I think not to let your personal feelings get ahold of you to go overboard, but don't stop having the subject show the meat of what the content discusses. Just quickly attribute it in the message to whatever source it is so that people can judge its integrity or not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4650355#4652380

[Lithos]

25. Your answer

1) Anti-war.com is indeed considered unacceptable. Not only does it have strong links to Lew Rockwell and Pat Buchanan all known for their extremist and sometimes bigoted view, many of its primary contributors and affiliated sites also have shown similar behavior.

2) We've made a strong distinction between sources which are sometimes reposted there and those which originate there. Juan Cole is a notable example of material which is crafted by someone with more than lay credentials and considered relevent to much of the discussion in I/P.

Even so, citation of Juan Cole from Anti-war.com is not acceptable, but citation from Juancole.com is allowed as Juan Cole does not appear to endorse or otherwise condone anti-war.com and its politics.

3) Extending point 2. If you find that Sibel Edmonds is a valuable and relevent source, then finding a site which legitimately posts this material and which also does not have an editorial policy which allows the posting of or which otherwise condones thru the linking or other types of support to sites which also post biased and/or bigoted material should not be difficult.


On Edit:

I will be locking this thread. I should have locked it earlier, but was distracted by Katrina. Mr. Howells, if you wish to pursue this discussion, then PM me.

L-

[Lithos]

26. See note above

L-