Three Things I learned Today from DU

[berni_mccoy]

1. On July 28th, 1945, a B25 BOMBER crashed into the 79th Floor of the Empire State Building, setting it on fire, killing 14 people and doing over $1 million in damage.

2. On Feb 12th, 2005, The Windsor Building in Madrid burned for over 24 hours and while the top 10 floors of the building feel, the building did NOT collapse.

3. At least NINE of the 19 9/11 Hijackers have turned up alive and have been verified by the FBI.

I now have MANY MANY unanswered questions running around in my head.

Read this thread for more information:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5499789

[JuniperLea]

1. actually it was a b25 bomber

considerably smaller than a b52. easy mistake to make

[berni_mccoy]

5. sorry, typo.

[timber84]

2. I'm confused about number 3 can you give more detail?

[berni_mccoy]

6. go to the link and watch the video

http://enigs.xmule.ws/trailer.wmv

Here is a direct link to trailer.

[sabbat hunter]

64. according to that video

a B52 bomber hit the empire state building. an impossibility since it wasnt built yet. :P
we all know that a B25 bomber lost in the fog hit it, but if this kid cannot even get this simple fact straight how can we take anything else he says?

the rap music in the background is fairly distracting.

this video has no credibilty. IMHO.

[Kevin Fenton]

46. Hijackers still alive

You can get fairly detailed info here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
IMHO only 6 of them are still alive and their identities were probably stolen - AQ has a history of forging passports. The FBI should have at least tried to find the real names though.

[SharonRB]

3. Can you point us to where you got the info for #3?

This could prove to be very, very interesting, if true.

[Kevin Fenton]

47. Hijackers still alive

The 9/11 timeline has an entry for the "hijackers" still alive. You can view it here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
If you ask me, only 6 of the cases are credible. The other guys are probably dead.

[rsdsharp]

4. Well hey. just from your post alone

I've learned that a B52 crashed nine years before the first one was even built!

[berni_mccoy]

7. LOL sorry, typo.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. IT IS ALL CONNECTED.

See my response below about time travel being responsible for 9 of the hijackers still being alive.

Coincidence? You've got your head in the sand, my friend.

[babylonsister]

8. Where did this info come from:

At least NINE of the 19 9/11 Hijackers have turned up alive and have been verified by the FBI.

This is the first I've ever heard about 'survivors'.

[Lex]

11. Yeah, is there a link on that 'fact'?

It sounds dubious to me.

[sabra]

12. not 'survivors', but potential case of stolen identities

there have been reports of people from different parts of the worlds that their identity may have been stolen by the "hijackers"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. It came from the magical bullshit factory. n/t

[timber84]

15. Hey I thought the Bush Administration has exclusive rights to that one?

:sarcasm:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Ah, but that's the wonderful thing about bullshit.

It's free, and anybody can make their own, right at home. Usually whilst sitting in front of the PC in their underwear and eating cheetos.

[timber84]

22. LOL

:rofl:

[Kevin Fenton]

48. Probably only 6 still alive

They were probably just cases of identity theft, you can get the details here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
Odd the FBI never found out who the hijackers really were.

[sandnsea]

9. Jet fuel was burning in the Windsor?

I didn't know that. Hmmm.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

10. Ugh.

1) Much smaller plane, not laden with fuel.

2) That's nice. Did it also get hit by a large airliner?

3) No, I would suggest that anybody who was on those planes is probably dead.


>I now have MANY MANY unanswered questions running around in my head.

Is one of them "Am I a civil engineer?"

[Lex]

14. LOL!

I agree.

[berni_mccoy]

17. Wow.

1) But laden with munitions
2) No, but an impact by an airliner didn't take down the towers.
3) Then how do you explain 9 hijackers walking around alive.

Go ahead, and keep your head in the sand. Don't ask any questions when presented with evidence to the contrary.

[sabra]

20. " hijackers walking around alive"

stolen identities.

[berni_mccoy]

23. You need to watch the video

It's not that simple. Remember, the hijacker identities were "confirmed" by the government using more than just the passenger lists.

[timber84]

25. Are you implying that they confirmed their identities by asking

the "survivors"?

[timber84]

21. My head is not in the sand just really blown away by number 3.

Need more evidence than your post.

[berni_mccoy]

24. Watch the video:

direct link: http://enigs.xmule.ws/trailer.wmv

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Eek!

1) Yes, but then by the missile-hit-the-WTC-and-gravity-goes-sideways theory, that means the the empire state building should have broken off and ended up somewhere in New Jersey.
2) And New Orleans was destroyed by a flood, not a hurricane.
3) Time Travel, of course.

[berni_mccoy]

29. LOL!

1) explosives was in reference to the bomber hitting the Empire, not the WTC.
2) true
3) it is possible.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!11111

1) Gravity. Sideways. This is a simple concept.
2) False (just to be beliggerent)
3) No. It isn't. The people on those planes are DEAD. If there's someone out there who's alive, who's got the supposed identity of one of the hijackers, then it's a case of either mistaken or stolen identity. End of fucking story.

[rsdsharp]

51. I don't think there were any munitions.

The plane was on a ferry run from Massachusetts to New Jersey -- to pick up the pilot's commanding officer. The war in Europe had been over for more than two months. Not much call for ordinance under those circumstances. Whaddya gonna do, bomb Hackensack?

[Kevin Fenton]

49. The point is that they weren't on the planes

Some people who stole their identities were on the planes and the FBI (or somebody) should have found out who they really were.

IMHO only six of the claims are credible, the details are here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+

[kansasblue]

16. #3. Never read a word about that on DU. This DU?

3. At least NINE of the 19 9/11 Hijackers have turned up alive and have been verified by the FBI.

[berni_mccoy]

18. Follow the link, watch the video

here's a direct link to the video:

http://enigs.xmule.ws/trailer.wmv

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. So does that mean the FBI isn't part of the conspiracy?

So they can cover up an operation that must have involved hundreds of people, but they can't get the FBI to keep a lid on this. God conspirators these days just fucking suck.

[longship]

28. Are you really claiming?

That because a B-25 at landing approach speed didn't bring down the Empire State Building that a much, much heavier 757 flying at over 500 knots could not bring down the WTC?

That a skyscraper fire that was not started by a 500+ knot airplane slamming into a the building is in anyway equivalent to one that was?

Item 3 is Pulitzer Prize stuff. Are you saying that thousands of journalists have this information and are not writing about it because of some global conspiracy amongst them *all*. Isn't there at least one muckraker in this world willing to publish such "facts" in a recognized newspaper? This has precisely *zero* credibility.

[berni_mccoy]

30. As I've said many times already

watch the video...

but

1. How do you know it was at landing approach speed (the bomber was lost in the fog)... and MANY MANY scientists have said that a 757 hitting the towers was NOT WHAT took it down... it was the fire.

2. See 1 above, and a fire that burns the entire building for 24 hours will get JUST AS HOT as one started by jet fuel. In fact, the insides of the building were probably much hotter from TOP TO BOTTOM.

3. Watch the video: http://enigs.xmule.ws/trailer.wmv

[longship]

40. Simple

1. Because of its altitude.

2. A fire from a 500+ knot 100,000 lb airline impact is *not*, repeat *NOT*, the same thing as a static fire.

3. No. I don't need to watch it to know that this is bunkum.

No wonder we have ChimpCo in the WH. The people's credulity is broken. They'll believe anything.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

35. " This has precisely *zero* credibility."

And additionally, it's fucking stupid.

There, I said it. It's a fucking stupid idea. I know the idea of stupid ideas isn't necessarily popular around here, but there it is.

[Kevin Fenton]

39. Will you knock it off with this 500 knots

The planes were travelling at:
(1) 429 mph - American 11, North Tower;
(2) 503 mph - United 175, South Tower.
I got this from an MIT study, which you can find here:
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20III%20Aircraft%20speed.pdf
The figures are groundspeed, not airspeed.

Hijackers who are still alive have been reported by the BBC, the Daily Telegraph, the LA Times, the Arab News, the Washington Post, the Times, the Independent, the New York Times, Associated Press and others:
(1) Saeed Alghamdi is alive and flying airplanes in Tunisia. He says he studied flight training in a Florida flight schools for parts of the years 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. The Daily Telegraph notes, “The FBI had published personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had ‘stolen’ his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr. Alghamdi.” If this account is true, as of mid-2004 the FBI is still using the wrong photograph of Alghamdi.
(2) Salem Alhazmi is alive and working at a petrochemical plant in Yanbou, Saudi Arabia. He says his passport was stolen by a pickpocket in Cairo three years ago and that pictures and details such as date of birth are of him.
(3) Ahmed Alnami is alive and working as an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. He had never lost his passport and found it “very worrying” that his identity appeared to have been stolen. However, there is another “Ahmed Alnami” who is ten years younger, and appears to be dead, according to his father. Ahmed Alnami's family says his FBI picture is correct.
(4) Abdulaziz Alomari is alive and working as a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines He claims that his passport was stolen in 1995 while he was living in Denver, Colorado. “They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive.”
(5) and (6) The brothers Waleed M. Alshehri and Wail Alshehri are alive. A Saudi spokesman said, “This is a respectable family. I know his sons, and they're both alive.” The father is a diplomat who has been stationed in the US and Bombay, India. There is a second pair of Saudi brothers named Wail and Waleed M. who may have been the real hijackers. Their father says they have been missing since December 2000. The still-living Waleed M. Alshehri is a pilot with Saudi Airlines, studying in Morocco. He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Dayton Beach in the United States. He was interviewed by US officials in Morocco, and cleared of all charges against him (though apparently the FBI is still using his picture). The still living Waleed Alshehri is also apparently a pilot. He claims that he saw his picture on CNN and recognized it from when he studied flying in Florida. But he also says that he has no brother named Wail.
I got this information here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=Salem+al+Hazmi&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
The date is September 16-23. It also details other claims of hijackers still alive, but I don't find those credible, so I count 6, not 9 (unless you include the guys on United 23, who all ran off when it returned to the gate).

It's probably just a case of their passports being stolen and altered - Al Qaeda is known to have done this lots of times and allegedly there were signs that the passports the hijackers had were tampered with. However, the thing is that the damn FBI (or somebody) should investigate and find out who actually did 9/11. Why were some hijackers using stolen identities and some not?

[rainy]

31. I started watching the movie, and this question comes to mind

What happened to the real planes and the people aboard? Do they cover this?

[longship]

42. The were all transported to Comet Hale-Bopp.

Along with the Atlantis population, UFO abductees, and the disappearances from the Bermuda triangle.

[rman]

62. "unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft"

Faking an incident with a passenger plane is nothing new to the government and intel agencies.

--

Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwood

- Destroying an unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft supposedly full of "college students off on a holiday". This proposal was the one supported by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

--

"drone" simply means it's remote controlled, and remote control of a full fledged air liner is not rocket science - and at any rate, we've got rocket science down pretty well.

So it's quite possible there were no passengers in those planes to begin with.

[WilliamPitt]

32. Oh but wait...

It wasn't commercial airlines that hit the buildings. It was remote-controlled military planes sporting missiles under the belly.

FEMA did it all.

A missile hit the Pentagon.

Psssst, berni_mccoy...c'mere.

Listen close. I have to whisper. *Others* may be listening.

Ready?

Back in 2002, two noted French intelligence experts came out with a book titled Osama bin Laden, The Forbidden Truth. Within this book were many important questions about Afghanistan, the pipeline, pre-attack warnings, etc.

Almost immediately afterwards, another book came out of France about 9/11. This one had all the stuff about controlled demolitions and remote-controlled planes.

The first was legit. The second was rank disinformation designed to throw legitimate inquiries off-track.

It worked. Too much of the 9/11 Truth Movement these days focuses on missiles hitting the Pentagon and controlled demolition and a lot of wild, unsubstantiated stuff.

Don't buy it.

I am Chuck Bungfeeb.

[berni_mccoy]

37. I never said I buy EVERYTHING in the video

But I have always doubted the collapse of the towers...

The photographic evidence these guys have collected and highlighted raises the issue again.

And I don't subscribe to the belief that airliners didn't crash... but when 9 of these guys turn up alive, the obvious question is raised: who really crashed the planes (with all the passengers on board... I had a friend on board one of the planes) and how? The video does provide some evidence for that.

[longship]

50. I just do not understand how people can believe such bunkum.

But I have always doubted the collapse of the towers...

Why would you doubt something that millions of people all over the world witnessed first hand?

The photographic evidence these guys have collected and highlighted raises the issue again.

No it doesn't. The claims of these fools are easily debunked. But that doesn't stop people from believing it anyway. Why?

And I don't subscribe to the belief that airliners didn't crash... but when 9 of these guys turn up alive, the obvious question is raised: who really crashed the planes (with all the passengers on board... I had a friend on board one of the planes) and how? The video does provide some evidence for that.

But possible (and totally unsubtantiated) mistaken identity does not rationalize disappearing planes and passengers, controlled demolitions, etc. that is being spewed about 9/11. Maybe it's possible that the FBI made some mistakes in IDing the perps. Actually, I doubt that, too. Given the rest of the conspiracy theory, I suspect that these reports are bunkum as well.

The towers fell because they were hit at 500 knots by fuel laden airliners. There is absolutely no need to concoct ridiculous stories about demolitions, missles, disappearing airplanes, etc.

Why are people so willing to believe things that are clearly counter to the facts and science? What is this seemingly perverse need to create fictions about events? I truly worry about people sometimes.

[Woody Box]

55. William Pitt vs. Mike Ruppert

Mike Ruppert is not said to believe in wild, unsubstantiated stuff.

He didn't believe in controlled demolitions.

Nor in remote-controlled planes.

He corrected himself. Just read "Crossing the Rubicon".

It's time to wake up, Mr. Pitt.

[rman]

63. Best way to get disinfo out there is to mix it with truth.

It's not that remote controlled planes are implausible simply because someone associates those with them being military planes that carried missiles.


I really think you should read up on past CIA operations.

Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwood

- Destroying an unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft supposedly full of "college students off on a holiday". This proposal was the one supported by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

--

The planes need not be military types. How hard would it be for the military or some covert or established intel agency to obtain a few civilian airplanes and have them retro fitted for remote control? Heck, Cuban 'rebels' involved in the Bay of Pigs fiasco were flying US military planes painted in Cuban flag colors.
And there certainly is no need for missiles.

[depakid]

36. Of course, this is why DU doesn't get cited or take seriously

by many people- even though conspiracy theories make up only a very small percentage of the posts.

The Art Bell reputation is hard to shake, once a few threads get out.

[Thorandmjolnir]

38. Actually,

I remember that some of the people claimed to be the hijackers, turned out to be alive in other countries right after their name and photo appeared.

To this day, I still don't know how they identified the hijackers on the various planes, considering their names do not appear on the passenger lists.

How do we know who was on which plane. Just a question. If anyone know the answer I would be happy to know.

[Kevin Fenton]

45. Passenger lists

18 of the hijackers do appear on some passenger lists, for example this one:


Sometimes the manifests were printed without the hijackers names. AFAIK
the only hijacker not to appear on the lists at all was Hani Hanjour,
who was supposed to fly American 77 into the Pentagon, but doesn't seem to have checked in that day.

You can get details of the "hijackers" who are still alive here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
I only count six credible claims - probably just stolen identities,
which AQ has a history of. Odd that the FBI didn't get to the bottom of
it though.

[Make7]

52. ( n/t )

[Kevin Fenton]

54. Corrected (nm)

[Der Blaue Engel]

41. I'm generally a LIHOPer

But whenever I start reading MIHOP speculations, it's the speculations themselves (not the answers, but the questions) that give me the biggest chills. Even if you think all of the MIHOP arguements are complete bunk...there are questions that just don't have satisfactory answers under the accepted explanation of these events.

I think one reason I remain LIHOP for the most part is that I start shaking and crying when I read these questions, and I have to stop. Because the possibility, just the possibility that these bastards would commit such an abominable act of treason is soul-sickening, and the rational mind can't take it.

I think that's why most people stay away from MIHOP...the prospect of it is too horrible to contemplate.

Thanks for having the courage to risk the flames. I desperately hope the truth comes out some day. Even if it's only LIHOP, I want them held accountable. I just can't bear the idea that they will never be punished. They have destroyed my country as surely as they have Iraq. :(

[WoodrowFan]

43. what I learned

I learned that you are REALLY gullible because you believe this tinfoil crap. bye bye.

[Kevin Fenton]

44. Your points

Actually, I think the WTC was blown up with explosives, but I don't think (1) is very relevant (different type of building, different plane) and (2) is marginal (no aircraft damage).

You can get details of the hijackers still alive from the very excellent 9/11 Timeline:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=%22photograph+of+somebody+else%22&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+
The link contains details of all the "alive" claims, i.e. the ones that are credible and that ones that aren't. It also has links to mainstream media sources containing interviews with some of them. IMHO only 6 of the 19 are still alive. I guess it's just a case of AQ stealing identities, but it's really odd the FBI didn't do a better job.

[goju]

53. The rap music and the 14 year old narrator really sold me

Great "source". :eyes:

Some days I just have to wonder why I have any hope left. Today is not a good day.

[nomatrix]

56. The snowball of doubt creates the avalanche of CT

I don't need to list anything because everyone already knows them.

There is one FACT you can never explain, deny, misrepresent.

Knowing a jet has crashed into the WTC, Andrew Card tells the president ___________________. He sits there. I won't argue what he said, it has be reprinted enough. I am referring to his reaction.


He sits there. He sits there. He sits there. He sits there.

Got it.

Now bring it on.

Name one person, other than in a coma, who sat without reaction, when they heard the news.


This is one of those things that really fires me up about the 9/11 threads.

Stop changing the subject with all the particular CT you want to pick apart.

He sat there. It didn't surprise him. He knew.

[mirandapriestly]

57. yup....nt

[Laurab]

58. On that same topic....about the pResident

not only did he sit there....and sit there...and sit there.

The United States was under attack, his whereabouts had been publicized, and, instead of being whisked away immediately, he sits there...

I don't pretend to know what happened that day, I don't subscribe to a lot of the theories, but something is certainly fishy when the biggest, most obvious target for a nation under attack, is not moved immediately to a safe, undisclosed location. That, to me, has always been very suspect.

He knew he was not in danger, that much I believe. I don't see how anyone can argue that his, or the Secret Service's, actions make any sense whatsoever given the circumstances.

[mirandapriestly]

59. Yes, he says he didn't want to alarm the kids so he kept reading, but

he made them along with himself sitting targets for the "terrorists" by not moving. Absolutely not believable.

[hack89]

61. Or Bush is a moron or he panicked and frooze- take your pick nt

[Beam Me Up]

65. No. It doesn't matter how stupid he is. The Secret Service have his safety

as their #1 priority. Secret Service communications are patched into the highest and most secure communications systems in military command. Had they had ANY DOUBT about his safety, he would have been out of there in a heart beat.

In other words, even though they want us to believe that a) America was under attack by unknown assailants using commercial jetliners as WMD and b) they were caught completely by surprise, they ALSO want us to believe somehow they knew the president was in no immediate danger, even though he was in a disclosed location only minutes from an international air port without military air cover. All this while two hijacked planes remained airborn.

NO WAY IN HELL.

Whatever the truth may be, THE OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL WAR ON TERRORISM (tm) LIES.

[hack89]

66. Ok - you have the most CAPS so you win. n/t

[nomatrix]

68. Frooze is that plural for everyone panicking and

not doing their job?

......are you suggesting a

......wait for it.....

Conspiracy......theory....????


Talking Point #1
That couldn't be possible for everyone to keep quiet about it...

exception ......Manhattan Project....that only involved... thousands


This would be really, really, really, big!
It would involve all the Secret Service, Rove, Card, Fleisher,

Here, read this. If you still feel they same way about someone being a moron.....

http://www.complete911timeline.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday

[MrSammo1]

60. Gee.....

You don't know about the missing jets yet?

[theSaiGirl]

67. Best post worth repeating about government foreknowledge of 9/11...

Beam Me Up (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-03-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. No. It doesn't matter how stupid he is. The Secret Service have his safety


as their #1 priority. Secret Service communications are patched into the highest and most secure communications systems in military command. Had they had ANY DOUBT about his safety, he would have been out of there in a heart beat.

In other words, even though they want us to believe that a) America was under attack by unknown assailants using commercial jetliners as WMD and b) they were caught completely by surprise, they ALSO want us to believe somehow they knew the president was in no immediate danger, even though he was in a disclosed location only minutes from an international air port without military air cover. All this while two hijacked planes remained airborn.

NO WAY IN HELL.

Whatever the truth may be, THE OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL WAR ON TERRORISM (tm) LIES.