Photo of an Airplane fragment from the Pentagon attack

[IChing]

Is this normal airplane construction or is it composite?

"Context: Driving on a highway adjacent to the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, Penny Elgas stopped as she saw a passenger jet descend, clip a light pole near her, and then crash into the Pentagon. Arriving home, Elgas found this plane fragment in the back seat of her car (she theorizes that it dropped through the open sunroof). Feeling that it was her patriotic duty to preserve the fragment as a relic, she crafted a special box and lined it with red, white, and blue material. " from the site

Source: Smithsonian Instit.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=28

They have a cool zoom of the material at the site.

I am rather curious why she was able to keep this piece of the plane.
Has anyone heard of her and if so what?


http://membres.lycos.fr/applemacintosh/pentagon.htm
I traced the picture from this site.

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Wow, more government bs

Shouldn't this piece been turned over to the FBI or the NASB? It would have been a very important part of a real investigation into the place crash. Oh that's right, we never did do a real investigation of these crashes.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. They've got pictures of other plane fragments from the attack

Description: These seven airplane fragments were recovered from the World Trade Center debris pile.









There are a few other images on this site if anyone is interested. I could copy the links on some of the parts.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=160

[IChing]

3. To get back on subject of the pentagon plane fragment

Does anyone have anymore information (links also) on this other than what I found on my links?

[killtown]

7. That is the only link I've seen.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. Here's a link to her 'eyewitness' account

Statement from Penny Elgas
Personal Experience At The Pentagon on September 11, 2001
By Penny Elgas

I had an early appointment on September 11th, so I drove to work later than usual. I work at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation near the White House. I headed north on 1-395 to DC from my home in Springfield, Virginia and I entered the highway a little after 9am so that I could take the High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) express lane. As usual, traffic was very heavy and after I exited I-95, I found myself stuck in late morning rush hour traffic -- almost in front of the Pentagon. For most of my drive I had been totally focused on my radio and was extremely aware of the events that were unfolding in New York. Even though the radio reporters were cautious, I was already convinced from the first strike that it was not just an unfortunate pilot error. However, I felt that New York was under attack and I couldn't have imagined what would unfold in front of me.

Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there. My first thought was “Oh My God, this must be World War III!”

In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was far enough in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me and the underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I could see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking that it was just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that point it never occurred to me that this might be a plane with passengers.

In my adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual senses. The day had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work with my car's sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more car windows open because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second that I saw the plane, my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear or feel anything -- not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact sounds.

The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the plane slip into the building. It was here that I closed my eyes for a moment and when I looked back, the entire area was awash in thick black smoke.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/supporting.asp?ID=30

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Here's a little more where she describes the piece of the plane

too bad she never finishes the part about what she actually did with the piece, but jumps to another topic and never finishes. I can't believe the Smithsonian posted such a poorly written piece.



When I arrived home, I turned on every radio and TV in the house -- I'm not sure whether I was trying to drown out my thoughts or whether I was just hungry for news. I made a cup of tea to calm my nerves and called my husband to let him know that I was okay. I told him that there was a piece of the plane in my car, but for some reason, I couldn't deal with it just yet. I also called my son at college to reassure him that I was okay. Apparently, I made several cups of tea that I don't remember making because later that day I found four sopping teabags lined up on my kitchen counter. I believe now, that I was operating on “auto-pilot” and was probably in shock for much of that day. At some point I opted for quiet and turned off all the noise except the radio in my kitchen. Then I went to my car and faced that piece of the plane that was in the back seat. It appeared to be a piece of the tail. There was no metal on it and it was very lightweight -- all plastic and fiberglass. It was 22" long and 15" wide. I have no idea how it got into my car because I do not remember seeing any rubble flying around while I was at the crash site. I assume that it dropped in through the sunroof or flipped in through a window. The plane piece consisted of a layer of white paint, and layers of yellow and gray fiberglass as well as a thin brown corrugated material.

I gingerly picked up the piece and carried it into the house. As I entered the kitchen, I heard the radio announcer on WMAL state that it was an American Airlines flight and I thought to myself, "I knew that." But then the announcer said that is was Flight number 77 and he stated the number of passengers and crew and it hit me hard that the planes had been full of innocent victims. The radio announcer said that they were taking calls from people who had a personal experience to share. I dialed the station. I remember that I told them that I was "Penny from Springfield" and that I had a piece of the plane. The next thing I knew, I was on the air and Chris Core said "Penny from Springfield, What did you see?" I don't remember any of the rest of our conversation and coworkers who heard it said it was somewhat incoherent. The only thing that I remember is that at the end, Chris Core said, "How weird is that?" And I remember thinking that his comment didn't make me feel any better.

As you could imagine, I was in no shape to work the next day so I stayed home with my husband. All day on September 12th, I sat glued to the television and overdosed on horrible replays from New York and DC/Arlington. At one point, I unconsciously barricaded myself in a mound of sofa cushions and that's when I realized that I needed to find some mental relief. I talked to several coworkers and to a counselor from our Corporation's counseling program, as well as to family and friends. I wasn't too keen about returning to work, but I had a major project to roll out and I just kept telling myself that I would not let the terrorists succeed in terrorizing me further. I returned to the office on September 13th with several rolls of red, white and blue ribbon and a supply of pins. I began to make multi-colored ribbon loops and pinned them to the bulletin board outside my office with a note that they were available for anyone that wanted to wear one. On that day and the next, I posted over 160 ribbons and it was helpful to me to see them worn by so many.

[rman]

4. "dropped through the open sunroof" - sure

[JackRiddler]

5. I expect...

Doubt this qualifies as "government bs".

It's this lady's bs, is what it is, and the Smithsonian no different than a church gratefully accepting the long-lost bones of John the Baptist for a reliquary.

[IChing]

6. Do you know if it was examined independently?

Or for that matter even examined,
fell in the back seat from her moon roof
and didn't notice it until she got home.
Does anyone really know anything about her?

Is it composite material? it looks to me like the honeycomb design
used in composite materials.Did flight 77 have anything in the wing area
made like this and what part of the plane did this come from?

Just asking questions

[gbwarming]

12. 757's have lots of composite parts

The black fabric looks like graphite while the yellowish is likely Kevlar. This part probably could be identified by Boeing engineers from the shape, orientation of the core, and the orientation and number of fiber plies.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. So how many of those parts are painted

hi-gloss white on an American Airline 757? I thought they were metallic silver?

[killtown]

8. The only evidence this piece gives weight to

is that some kind of Global Hawk hit those light poles. It's obviously not from a 757.

[LARED]

10. Obviously not from a 757?

What? How do you know it not from a 757 and is likely from a Global Hawk?

The only thing obvious is it's not from anything identifiable.

[killtown]

13. skin looks like the white composite you'd find

on a global hawk, not the shiny gray aluminum on a 757.

[LARED]

14. Skin?

How do you know it's a piece of skin? It cound be from anywhere in the plane.

[AlienSpaceBat]

17. It couldn't be from just anywhere

If this was dislodged from the plane when it clipped a light pole it cannot be an internal component. Remember, the plane was supposedly still whole and flying under control at this point.

[LARED]

21. Quite true

I overlooked that. Ok, so it was an external element. Now what? It's still not identifiable as anything.

[killtown]

23. So how did it "land in her car"?

Did this composite piece break off when it clipped the lightpoles and land in the opening of her sunroof, or was it planted?

[LARED]

27. See Penny Elgas' statement

When I arrived home, I turned on every radio and TV in the house -- I'm not sure whether I was trying to drown out my thoughts or whether I was just hungry for news. I made a cup of tea to calm my nerves and called my husband to let him know that I was okay. I told him that there was a piece of the plane in my car, but for some reason, I couldn't deal with it just yet. I also called my son at college to reassure him that I was okay. Apparently, I made several cups of tea that I don't remember making because later that day I found four sopping teabags lined up on my kitchen counter. I believe now, that I was operating on “auto-pilot” and was probably in shock for much of that day. At some point I opted for quiet and turned off all the noise except the radio in my kitchen. Then I went to my car and faced that piece of the plane that was in the back seat. It appeared to be a piece of the tail. There was no metal on it and it was very lightweight -- all plastic and fiberglass. It was 22" long and 15" wide. I have no idea how it got into my car because I do not remember seeing any rubble flying around while I was at the crash site. I assume that it dropped in through the sunroof or flipped in through a window. The plane piece consisted of a layer of white paint, and layers of yellow and gray fiberglass as well as a thin brown corrugated material.

[killtown]

28. Sounds like this piece not from a 757 was planted to me!

Do you think this piece was from the "tail" too? If not, where do YOU think this mystery piece came from and how did it get in her car?

[LARED]

29. I have no reason to doubt her story? Do you?

Why?

[killtown]

31. I'm not saying she's lying, I'm saying that non-757 piece

seems obviously planted in her car. She only was guessing how it got in her car.

Btw, the Pentagon was a crime scene, how did that EVIDENCE get exempt?

[LARED]

32. Exactly how do you know it was a non-757 piece.

I'm not talking about speculation. Do you have evidence it was not form a 757 and that it was planted. Again, I am speaking about something other than speculation.

[killtown]

33. Compare for yourself:

You think it's from a 757?

[LARED]

34. It would be dandy if you explain what is seen on the right side

of the image.

[killtown]

35. You mean the composite nose cone of an AA 757?

[LARED]

37. So you are comparing a nose cone of a 757 to a piece that

according to the story came off of some other part of the plane. Is there a point to that?

Perhaps you could match the piece to some other aircraft that you think did hit the Pentagon. Now that would be something.

[killtown]

38. Well since all the composite on a 757 is the same color

I didn't think it really mattered. And, is that lady a plane construction expert? how did she know it came from the tail? And if it did come from the tail, what did the tail hit to shatter this piece off?

You did see the photos of the Global Hawk's skin that matched the color of this piece right?

[LARED]

39. Well since all the composite on a 757 is the same color

Are they? Please provide some evidence. I guess next your going to tell me all 757's are painted exactly the same colors.

[killtown]

40. Photo of an AA 757

Yep, all the composite parts are the same color as the nosecone:

[gbwarming]

41. Lighting and camera make a big difference apparently

Here are clips from four of the dozen photos of N644AA on airliners.net which show a considerable variation in color. I don't think you can rule out that airplance as a source of the fragment on the basis of paint color.

[killtown]

42. Yes indeed

I still prefer to compare it to a close-up rather than distant pics. We should find more close-ups to compare.

[DoYouEverWonder]

36. Why wasn't this piece turned over to investigators?

Don't they usually try to collect every piece of the plane in any crash? I would assume this piece could provide a lot of information about what part of the plane hit the light pole and what that did to the integrity of the craft? Funny there's not much for scratches on the shiny white part. I would expect with the speed the plane was going that any piece being ripped off what be a bit more damaged.

[killtown]

18. such as?

[gbwarming]

19. It looks like the white composite you'd find on an AA 757 too...

Note the white wing root and stabilizer fairings, flap track fairings, gear doors, radome, engine nacelles...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/188155/M/

[LARED]

22. Thanks for pointing that out (n/t)

[killtown]

24. Where do you see the "white composite" on a 757?

All I see is light grey composite. No white composite in sight.

However, compare the debris piece with this:

[gbwarming]

26. I think you're right about the (very) light gray color

however, the fragment is also light gray when compared to the white stripes of the printed fabric in the SI zoomable photo.

[killtown]

30. Compare for yourself:

Sources for zoomed composite debris and Boeing 757 composite nosecone

[killtown]

25. Also, the Pentagon crash was supposed to be a 'crime scene'

How did this piece get exempt from that?

[sabbat hunter]

15. airplane construction

composite materials are used in airplane construction

[liberal N proud]

16. Just dropped through the sun roof?

If something just dropped through a sun roof on most cars, it would most likely strike the driver on the shoulder or arm.
Do they really think we are that damned stupid? Just because bu$h is that damn dumb doesn't mean I have to be.