A&E's 'Flight 93' gets it right, no 757 at Shanksville!

[killtown]

From the movie:

"Is there a plane in there?"

"We don't know yet..."

"What do you mean?"

"...we're still looking for it...at first we thought it was in the hole, but there's nothing in there..."

"It must have landed in the woods, we haven't found it yet.."

"We're talking about a 757, here...it's a huge plane..."

"Yea, we know...you can help us look for it if you want..."


Watch the trailer here.

Even their gallery photo's show no plane:







Now compare them to the real crash scene photo's that also shows no plane. The truth is starring you in the face:





Notice the long dry grass still seen all the way up to the rim of the crater which means no aircraft with tons of jetfuel crashed into the ground and caused this crater. In fact, you can still see some grass INSIDE the crater!!!









And notice no evidence of a 757's giant tail section that should still be sticking out of this crater if it really plunged into it!






Learn the truth that NO BOEING 757 CRASHED at Shanksville either:

What really happened to Flight 93?

[LoKnLoD]

1. This post will disappear

into the 9-11 forum in about 10 seconds. It's a shame we have to treat these questions like the bastard red headed stepchild. Good post!

[BrklynLiberal]

97. Yep. As you predicted. Too bad.

Some day we MIGHT find out the truth.

Remember there was a time in history that people were killed for saying that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

This administration is capable of telling and spreading any lie it wants. I do believe THAT! Look how many people they STILL have convinced that Saddam is responisble for 9/11!!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. OMG

I heard the stupidities about no plane at the Pentagon, but I had yet to hear the downright dumbness of no plane in PA. Thanks for showing me a glimpse of the maniac world that had been - ahem - off my radar.

[killtown]

4. Oh, then you can spot the Boeing at Shanksville then?

(this ought to be good!)

[MakeItSo]

55. What's crazy is to buy the government's story without question

Because the empirical evidence doesn't support it. There is a lot of disinformation posted in the 9-11 forum by trolls trying to pollute the waters of the Truth Movement.

What IS a fact is this: a group of scientists and former government officials, including the former chief economist for the US labor dept. and the former head of the US government's Star Wars space defense program have joined forces to go on record saying that your government is LYING to you about 9/11. They give numerous, specific examples on their website:

http://www.scholarsfortruth.org/

If one reads this and begins to examine 9/11, it becomes increasingly likely that there indeed is a criminal coverup at the highest levels of our government. One cannot subsequently remain silent IN GOOD CONSCIENCE. Because if they did it once, they can do it again. And I'll do everything in my power, as a patriot and as a global citizen, to prevent that from happening.

[orleans]

155. interesting that you said

"I had yet to hear the downright dumbness of no plane in PA"

pretty weird huh?

the "downright dumbness" of our government to feed us this story about a plane crashing and then not even bother to put a plane at the crash site!

i mean, what the hell were they thinking when they planned that one? (if this scene was in a movie it would land in the blooper hall of fame---"ooops! guess we forgot to put a plane there!")

you're right. it was downright "dumbness" for the government to overlook that one little detail when they planned the crash site--minor detail: THE CRASHED PLANE!!!

[monobrau]

3. Um...

So what happened to the plane?
And just out of curiosity, how many plane crashes have you inspected?
Outrageous claims require substantial proof; not inference and innuendo.

[killtown]

5. "So what happened to the plane?"

Well it sure didn't crash into the crater now, did it!

Come on dude, it's not rocket science.

[MakeItSo]

56. You mean like the government's claim that they found Atta's passport

unscathed in the rubble of the WTC, yet couldn't locate any of the Black Boxes?

Your own arguments are nails in the coffin of the government's white wash of events that transpired that day.

[killtown]

57. or the PAPER LETTER 'from' Atta 'found' at Shanksville!

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/letter.htm

[i miss america]

126. I hadn't seen this one before. Simply amazing!

:wtf:

[smb]

152. With Goofy Conspiracy Theories, The Sky Isn't The Limit

So what happened to the plane?

Maybe space aliens took it back to their home planet. :eyes:

[mdmc]

6. wow!

eye opener!

[dufrenne]

7. This is just garbarge

...go post on a conspiracy website

[wakeme2008]

8. /

:popcorn:

[mdmc]

9. welcome to du

home of the :tinfoilhat: ! Bush let 9-11 happen.

[killtown]

10. Why is it "garbage"?

Can you not handle the truth? Do you see a 130 ton, 155 ft commercial airliner in that small crater? Do you blindly support Bush & Co?

[dufrenne]

13. LOL!!!

Love your tactics...right up there with the worst of the right-wing. I say that you're post is conspiracy garbage and your response is that if I don't believe in a 911 conspiracy, then I support Bush & Co. You might as well have asked "why do you hate freedom?" LOL!

I'm sorry, I can't speak intelligently about the dynamics and physics of plane crashes. There are few who can. So excuse me if I don't take the word of random anonymous posters with some pictures who say "LOOK AT THIS HOLE!!"

I'm fine with my presumption that 911 was in fact a terrorist attack.

[MakeItSo]

29. As long as you're fine with a complete and total fabrication

That's OK.

Did you know that former chief economist for the department of labor, Morgan Reynolds, has joined forces with the former director of the Star Wars space defense program (for both dems and repubs), Robert Bowman, and scores of Phds and other former government officials to say, without a reasonable doubt, that the government's version of events is in fact a lie?

http://www.scholarsfortruth.org/

The following accounts are all sourced on the website:

(1) The 9-11 Commission refused to examine the vast majority of evidence about 9/11, and even the former director of the FBI says there was a cover up by the 9/11 Commission

(2) The tape of interviews of air traffic controllers on-duty on 9/11 was intentionally destroyed by crushing the cassette by hand, cutting the tape into little pieces, and then dropping the pieces in different trash cans around the building

(3) Investigators for the Congressional Joint Inquiry discovered that an FBI informant had hosted and rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House

(4) A retired Air Force Colonel who flew over 100 combat missions and was the director of the Star Wars defense program under both Republican and Democratic administrations (and a member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth) recently said:


"If our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. That is treason!"

(5) Recently declassified documents show that in the 1960's, the American Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan to blow up AMERICAN airplanes (using an elaborate plan involving the switching of airplanes), and also committing terrorist murders against U.S. citizens on American soil, and then blaming it on the Cubans in order to justify an invasion of Cuba

(6) The Secret Service, which is highly trained to whisk the president away from danger and to a secure location in the event of a threat, breached all standard procedures and allowed President Bush to remain at a highly-publicized location for 25 minutes after it was known that the nation was under attack

(7) The U.S. defense agency responsible for protecting the U.S. had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and "numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft". In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run

(8) The military had also conducted drills of planes crashing into the Pentagon

(9) On the morning of 9/11, 5 war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. And the drills apparently included the injection of false "radar blips" onto the screens of air traffic controllers

(10) The government was running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building on the morning of 9/11

(11) While the government has consistently stated that it did not know where the aircraft were before they struck, the Secretary of Transportation testified before the 9/11 Commission that Vice President Cheney monitored flight 77 for many miles as it approached the Pentagon

(12) A third world trade center building, called building 7, collapsed on the afternoon of 9/11, but was never hit by plane, fell at the same speed as if there were no floors or walls to cause resistance, contained only small fires before the collapse, and became the first steel-frame building in history to collapse due to fire alone

(13) USA Today stated that the FBI believed that bombs in the buildings brought the buildings down

(14) MSNBC stated that police officials believe "that one of the explosions at the world trade center . . . may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some kind of explosive device in it, so their fear is that there may have been explosive devices planted either in the building or in the adjacent area"

(15) The NY Fire Department Chief of Safety stated there were "bombs" and "secondary devices", which caused the explosions in the buildings

(16) NYC firefighters who witnessed attacks stated that it looked like there were bombs in the buildings. A NYC firefighter stated "On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building"

(17) The head of a national demolition association stated that the collapse of the towers looked like a "classic controlled demolition"

(18) Eyewitnesses have testified that substantial explosions occurred well BELOW the area impacted by the planes, and -- according to some witnesses -- they occurred BEFORE the plane had even hit

(19) A police officer testified that there were numerous, HUGE explosions at the top of one of the twin towers 15 minutes apart, before the tower collapsed

(20) Numerous, credible ex-government officials are warning that the U.S. government might very well attack its own people to justify a further clampdown on civil rights and to justify additional wars


Take a read. Now what do you think?

[spooked911]

83. THE QUESTION IS-- WHO exactly were the terrorists?

Okay?

[m0nkeyneck]

140. "I'm sorry, I can't speak..."

"intelligently about the dynamics and physics of plane crashes."

Then you have absolutely no right to criticize those that may understand the dynamics and physics of plane crashes.

Getting so tired of people who admit they don't understand something in the same paragraph used to state their disagreement. Talk about garbage...

[MakeItSo]

24. Anybody who believes the government's offical story is either

not paying attention or as dense as a lobotomized rabbit.

On the other hand, people with extremely low DU post counts who agree lockstep with the government's official story may have, er, other ojectives.

[DesertRat]

11. This is interesting

I didn't pay attention to the details when it happened and never realized that there were no plane parts recovered. We lost 2 relatives in an airline crash 5 years earlier so it was too painful at the time to follow what happened in this crash.

If flight 93 didn't crash there, where did it go? :shrug:

Edited to say: I just set the Tivo to record the show on A&E later this evening.

[killtown]

15. I would like to know where it when to!

Here is one theory as to where it really went to:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021109040132/http:/wcpo.com/specials/2001/americaattacked/news_local/story14.html">Plane Lands In Cleveland; Bomb Feared Aboard

Reported by: 9News Staff
Web produced by: Liz Foreman
9/11/01 11:43:57 AM

A Boeing 767 out of Boston made an emergency landing Tuesday at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport due to concerns that it may have a bomb aboard, said Mayor Michael R. White.

White said the plane had been moved to a secure area of the airport, and was evacuated.

United identified the plane as Flight 93. The airline did say how many people were aboard the flight.

On behalf of the airline CEO James Goodwin said: "The thoughts of everyone at United are with the passengers and crew of these flights. Our prayers are also with everyone on the ground who may have been involved.

"United is working with all the relevant authorities, including the FBI, to obtain further information on these flights," he said.

Now of course this news report made one slight mistake in calling Flight 93 a Boeing 767. It was a 757.

Now notice on this timeline what happens to Flight 93 when it nears Cleveland (see #9 and #10):




Btw, there is a NASA center right next to Hopkins Airport:

"NASA Glenn is located at Lewis Field, a 350-acre site, adjacent to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, upon which the main campus is built."

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/about/aboutgrc.html

See here...

http://killtown.911review.org/flight93.html

[killtown]

18. Working link to news article...

http://web.archive.org/web/20021109040132/http:/wcpo.com/specials/2001/americaattacked/news_local/story14.html

[Virginian]

23. If it landed in Cleveland, what happened to the passengers?

and why are there no wings lying outside the pentagon if that one hole is where the fuselage went into the building.

[killtown]

35. The gov't could have easily 'offed' the passengers

somewhere else.

And there are no wings of a 757 at the Pentagon because no aircraft with 757 wings hit there.

[MakeItSo]

39. It's not like there was a tremendous respect for human life

What with the World Trade Center blowing up an all. Gassing a planeful of people would have been relatively charitable for these hell-bound monsters.

[earth mom]

59. Couldn't they have made up names for the flight 93 passengers?

The g'ment-Bush Co-has access to social security numbers and thus it's very easy for them to make up entire histories and backgrounds, etc.

[killtown]

62. Some people think that somewhat may have happened.

But it doesn't matter to me though, I only care that it didn't crash in Shanksville.

[The Straight Story]

144. A small question or two about this

If those passengers were landed in Ohio, wouldn't at least a few of them call from their cells to their loved ones (letting them know there was a delay at least). My wife called me yesterday as soon as the plane touched down and was taxiing down the runway.

There is a whole other option to consider as well if you really wanted to - there were no passengers because there was no plane. A drone perhaps used to confuse radar which was crashed into a field.


Me, I go with the main line for now. Does not mean I won't look into other options of course.

And a question about the plane at the pentagon. It does not matter one iota if they released the tapes tomorrow - people would label them a fake anyway.

[manxome]

12. /

:boring:

[mirandapriestly]

22. I never would have posted something so rude

when I had 11 posts. I still wouldn't.

[MakeItSo]

27. That's cause you don't have a hidden agenda

Some people are motivated by things other that the truth.

[mirandapriestly]

36. I'm beginning to really believe that..nt

[Thtwudbeme]

14. Every single poster here that believes the "Let's Roll!" story

will only ridicule you for being a "Conspiracy theorist." Those pictures are weird, and I don't know why people can't just admit that we don't have a goddamned clue what happened to that plane.

I always thought it was shot down.

[havocmom]

16. Shot to pieces in the air, parts falling here and there

make more sense when one sees the photos.

[MrSammo1]

81. Shot to pieces in the air, parts falling here and there

That's what the neocons would have you believe.

Believing that a jet existed and was shot down because it contained muslim terrorists is all part of the script.

If a jet did exist and was shot down there would be no reason not to use photos of the crash as evidence.

[killtown]

17. I thought it was shot down too, but THAT was a distraction!

It may have been shot down, but it wasn't shot down in Shanksville and caused that tiny crater.

[mom cat]

19. That crater, with the uncharred dried grass at the rim of the crater could

not have been fron a 757 full of jet fuel. I appreciate the OP. thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[monobrau]

20. answer my question smart guy

How many airplane crashes have you inspected?
What do you know about the type of crater that would be caused by an intact plane crashing into the ground or one that was blown up in the air?
You state that a portion of the tail section should be sticking up out of the crater - on what are you basing this information? How do you know that the plane which may have spun out of control during a struggle in the cockpit didn't slam into the ground upside down?
Do you have any level of expertise in this field or any other source than a website?

How are you any more qualified to evaluate a crash site than Bill Frist was in diagnosing Terri Schiavo?
You can't make outrageous claims and expect rational people to accept them just because you are passionate about them.
I don't believe the official version. But why should I swallow this?

[killtown]

41. Dude, it's not rocket science

if a 757 crashed there, there would be noticeable plane parts somewhere showing in the crater and a huge fire still burning from all the spilled jet fuel. Notice how none of the tall dry grass outside the crater is even scorched by fire or an explosion. The earth has NEVER swallowed a plane of this size before.

PS - are you saying the plane spun out of control and crashed backward????

[AZCat]

44. Impact dynamics is arguably more complex than rocket science.

We have put men on the moon but have yet to develop a truly reliable dynamic multi-body system simulation.

[Woody Box]

91. You don't need rocket science, nor impact dynamics

It's simply a matter of empiric evidence.

Never before an airliner crashed without leaving identifiable debris.

Never before an airliner crashed without leaving indentifiable amounts of blood.

It's just that history has seen hundreds of plane crashes before (and after).

None of these crashes is comparable to the eerie, empty hole at Shanksville.

[Woody Box]

92. Oh - forgot this one, of course!

sorry...

[AZCat]

109. And you have the credentials to match, I assume?

Have you actually done any inspection of aircraft crash sites, or are you trusting someone else to inform you of such information as "Never before an airliner crashed without leaving identifiable debris" or "Never before an airliner crashed without leaving indentifiable amounts of blood" or perhaps "None of these crashes is comparable to the eerie, empty hole at Shanksville"?

I hope you have the integrity to investigate these claims before parroting them, especially since you place such a high premium on empirical evidence.

[killtown]

128. we have good vision!

No 757 crashed at the Pentagon or at Shanksville. All the little debris seen was planted.

[MrSammo1]

84. maybe not......

you see here the resistance most people have concerning physical reality.

The miracle minds can't grasp the truth.

Rove is a genius!

[flyarm]

134. i was interviewed by a reporter who was in shanksville after the crash..

she did a different kind of interview with me last summer but she was a intern reporter just out of college on 9/11 and she went to shanksville asap when it happened..she is from PA...
we ended up friends and i have asked her extensively about it..she was there approx 1 hour after it happened..and no reporters were allowed to get anywhere near the site..she said fbi ..ntsb etc were all there ..and they allowed no reporters in near the site..so there never were any independant reports ...all any of us got were government reports..

it wasn't until the following day that anyone was allowed to get near the site..and even then they were kept well back from the spot the so called 757 hit..

so all we have is bullshit..unadulterated bullshit..

i asked her what kind of smoke she saw..very little she said from where she was...

and she was with the whole gaggle of reporters..

we can all speculate till we are blue in the face..but one thing i am sure of in my heart but more with my flt attendant knowledge..no 757 dissapeared in that freaking hole!

that plane was shot down..an engine was found betwwen 6-8 miles before that spot in shanksville..and i don't care what the passengers on that plane said or how many times any of them said "lets roll"..none of them went out on the wing and knocked an engine off that aircraft!

fly

[cyberpj]

76. Yep. Those are the same ones that believe the Jessica Lynch story too. nt

[MrSammo1]

85. Ah yes!

the sleeping sheeple.

They don't know much......and don't care to!

[mirandapriestly]

21. Darn, I thought the A&E special would be whitewash so I didn't

watch it. This is a great mystery. Ignore the brand new posters who have obviously been "waiting" for your post so they can try to discourage people from looking at it. Those of us who aren't brainwashed thank you for your time and effort!

[soulcore]

25. Indeed we do thank you.

The un-collapsed pentagon wall, freefall demolition of WTC1, 2, and 3, confiscated CC video of whatever hit the pentagon ... all these questions need to be addressed, and unit we can get this kind of thing out of the 9-11 bunker we'll never have the serious, scientific, fact-based discussion that these topics so truly deserve.

[soulcore]

26. wow. that was fast.

Into the basement we go.

[MrSammo1]

86. the really great thing about the movie is.......

it's going to open up more eyes!

[JackieO]

28. nice post, killtown

thanks!

[CoffeeCat]

30. I will say this...

...this is the first time that I've ever heard of the theory that Flight 93 didn't crash and make that crater.

I have no idea what happened.

However, I find the comments from those who criticize such questioning--really obvious attempts at squelching these opinions. It's almost as if these posters lie in wait--for these types of posts and then they swoop down.

It feels like a ploy to me.

DU is a big group of people who are open to all kinds of ideas. We're incredibly open minded and we question everything.

The people who swoop down, and so blatantly try to discredit discourse on these matters--come off as plants.

We know that BushCo has rigged elections, started a war based on lies, outed a CIA officer to punish one of his detractors, bankrupt the country, screwed the seniors, allowed hurricane victims to die of thirst, illegally spied on Americans, etc. Why on Earth would one more crime be SO DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE?

I'm just saying that these "oh come on now!" posts stick out like a sore thumb and don't blend--at all.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. Damn

I'm caught! Must report to NSA honcho that my secret mission to discredit lunatic rambling not believed by anybody and unlikely to ever be believed by more than .000002% of the population has failed. Shucks. :eyes:

[soulcore]

32. actually...

What was it like 60% of New Yorkers said they didn't buy the official 9/11 story and wanted a reopened investigation?

I'll hunt for the link.

*on edit

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

"Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals"

[MakeItSo]

50. people who believe government's account is sufficent are in the minority

per Zogby, who is a mainstream pollster quoted all the time by all the mainstream rags on other matters (not this one of course).

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. Ask New Yorkers if they believe a Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville

And get your results. This apples and oranges bit is somewhat juvenile, wouldn't you say. I am a New Yorker (moved out to PA in 2002), and I was in Lower Manhattan on September 11. Saw the first plane fly into the north tower with my own two eyes, and was enveloped in the dust cloud when the towers collapsed. And you know what? I'd like to see the investigation reopened. You damn skippy. I never heard of such a thing: almost 3,000 people are murdered in my city and the NYPD never does a homicide investigation? It's ridiculous. So, I'm in the 60%. But that damn sure doesn't make me in the negligible percentage of people who believe that because they don't see a plane in some pictures, Flight 93 never crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. That would be absolutely ridiculous, and would require the most laughable assumptions imaginable. There's no need to lecture me on 9/11. I lived it, dawg, in person. And, given the microscopic particles that entered my lungs that morning and in the weeks that followed (I went back to work on Broad Street on the Monday after the attacks), I'll probably die from it. That doesn't mean I get suckered by every wacky half-baked theory that circulates on the fucking internets.

[MrSammo1]

87. people only know what they know........

Hopefully enough people saw this very important movie.





Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. This is the reason the people of America won’t see what is staring them in the face. They’re simply too stupid to admit they’ve been duped, even though their survival depends on it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Yeah, everyone's stupid but you

Nice theory. Nice for you, anyway...

[MrSammo1]

105. Not everyone.......

Just the nonthinking 90%.

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. You should start a colony and lead the rest of us

unthinking imbeciles to enlightenment! Forward, oh guru!

A more self-important, elitist and dangerous - outright dangerous - political philosophy I cannot imagine. I only thank all that is good that you actually have no influence on anybody.

[CoffeeCat]

34. You couldn't be NSA...

...because an NSA employee would never use the words "honcho" and "schucks."

[alcibiades_mystery]

68. Sure we would

Er, I mean, sure they would....:evilgrin:

[MrSammo1]

88. yeah but..........

NASCAR fans would!

[alcibiades_mystery]

96. Hate NASCAR

More of a hockey man myself.

[MrSammo1]

106. Close......

enough!

[mirandapriestly]

40. Yes, they convince me MORE that something is being hidden....nt

[CoffeeCat]

47. Like I said...I had no opinion on this issue...

...because I'd never heard these theories before.

However, the dissenting, closed-minded, "you can't be serious!!!" posters who quickly descended on this thread--felt artificial.

The tone, demeanor and general disposition of these posts--doesn't mesh with the typical DUer.

DUers don't always agree on everything. I've seen heated debates on abortion, Cindy Sheehan, and a host of other issues. It's not the disagreeing that bothers me. It's the completely closed-minded, you-can't-make-me-go-there hysteria. The manic THIS-CAN'T-POSSIBLY-BE-TRUE! tenor of these posts seems a bit out of place.

The hallmarks of liberalism--open mindedness and a willingness to listen and respect alternative views--are completely absent from these posts.

These posts stick out like a sore thumb, in my opinion.

[AZCat]

51. Some of the reluctance...

comes from repetition. If you haven't browsed the 9/11 forum here at DU I suggest giving it a whirl. While there are certainly lots of unanswered questions about September 11th (and events since then) a lot of the threads in the forum repeatedly focus on the same topics. Longtime denziens may be a bit jaded about some of these theories (especially when the "new" incarnation has nothing new to offer) and can be dismissive of new threads but I think it is stretching to claim these are not common DU traits. Check out the posts on any thread about hackneyed DU subjects - it can get quite vicious.

[MakeItSo]

52. When one is CERTAIN that the government is lying based on the

empirical evidence at hand, and that lie is presented as truth and used REPEATEDLY to justify a nation's march to fascism at home and abroad, etiquette is the least of one's worries.

[MakeItSo]

42. If they bothered to undertake such a massive, evil conspiracy

Hiring a few low-level grunts to post crap on public websites would be nothing at all. The Pentagon has a black budget of $50 billion a year. Spook trolls are a drop in the bucket.

[sofa king]

33. A little math.

Let's say half of the plane's weight is made of combustibles: people, fuel, plastic, et cetera. Let's also say the other half is made of aluminum. Anyone who's been drunk at a campfire knows that aluminum can burn off, too, but let's say by some miracle of physics it somehow didn't when it was crushed into a crater filled with a burning jet fuel.

The density of aluminum is roughly 2.7 grams per cubic centimeter.

70 tons = 63,502,931.80 grams

63,502,931.80 grams / 2.7 grams / 1 cc = 23519604 cc

1 cc = 0.000001 cubic meters

23519604 cc = 23.5 cubic meters of aluminum

Or, about five dump truck loads, compressed into the dirt with the force of a 135 ton hammer, the pieces above ground in a concave focus burning at at least 840 degrees Fahrenheit.

Where did the Boeing go? Somewhere inside of a sixth grade textbook, I should think.

[killtown]

37. Sorry, my math is a little fuzzy

are you saying the 155 ft jet plunged into the ground and it's jet fuel caught on fire and burned the plane up?

[jschurchin]

38. Good Answer.......

how about the titanium and steel in the engines (6 tons each), the steel and magnesium in the landing gear, the alloy's in the airframe?
Refine math time.

[MakeItSo]

46. Speaking of the Pentagon, planes that hit concrete walls vaporize too

Check this video out of a jet fighter going full blast into a concrete wall (it doesn't even go all the way through the concrete)

http://gprime.net/video.php/planevsconcretewall

Yet here we have a clearly defined, seven foot hole in a Pentagon wall, the SIXTH wall of reinforced concrete that the aircraft allegedly pierced.




Explosives were clearly used. No question. I don't buy the missile theory, but it would have been possible to pack high-level explosives in the nose cone of whatever plane hit the building that day. Or detonate explosives inside the building as with the WTC.

[sofa king]

48. No, I'm not going to refine. You can start digging instead.

However, I will point out that the density of all those other metals is even greater, so that it can be compressed into an even smaller space, and will penetrate even deeper into the ground. So you'll have to dig deep.

Or, you can just take an empty beer can with a quarter in it, toss it into a fire, and ask me to spot that. It's pretty much the same thing.

[killtown]

53. Come on, where is the huge jet fuel fire?

that should have scorched all the tall dry grass around the crater and cause a huge dark cloud of smoke rising in the air continuously until it burnt itself out or it was put out?

Shanksville crater:


A typical plane crash fire:


Shanksville crater. Where is the jet fuel fire?


Another typical plane crash fire:

[FredStembottom]

60. Discussing this shouldn't require blank slate mathematical......

surmises and guesswork. This isn't the 1st plane to ever crash. There must have been "planeloads" of data compiled by crash researchers and aircraft designers over the last 80 years or so. And that data will be routinely modeled by supercomputers these days. And....that data will tell _exactly_ what happens to a 757 when it crashes!

I sure don't have such data - but there must be a mountain of it out there by this time in history and that data would tell, almost conclusively, what should be in that hole or not.

So.......where are the crash experts on this one????

[petgoat]

63. where are the crash experts on this one?

They're off the case.

NTSB was excluded from all the 9/11 crashes.

[FredStembottom]

75. I totally expected that answer..........

I didn't _know_ the answer.....but I knew it would be just what you said.

[rman]

132. But, but, if you haven't investigated all those crash sites personally,

there's no way to know anything about it!

Same people who say that, blindly accept government claims about whet happened on 9/11.

Peculiar.

[MrSammo1]

89. Anyone who's been drunk at a campfire knows that aluminum can burn off,

Actually it melts into the ground.

It doesn't vaporize.

[samhsarah]

43. wow. interesting....

This was on the other night. I didn't bother watching the movie because I just figured it would be parroting the Shrub administration's conspiracy theory about what happened that day, but now maybe I will have to give it a look.

[mirandapriestly]

45. Kooky idea from person with no scientific/military background:

Maybe it was "shot down" by something that caused it to disintegrate so as to not leave any evidence?

[killtown]

54. Talk about a "kooky idea"!

:rofl:

[killtown]

49. UA 93: not a single drop of blood found

And don't forget what the coroner said:

Coroner Wallace Miller:
"This is the most eerie thing," he says. "I have not, to this day, seen a single drop of blood. Not a drop."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/oneyearlater/s_90823.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=67776&mesg_id=67776

[killtown]

61. FEDS: 40 passengers from Flight 93 'recovered' at Shanksville

Flight 93 Remains Returned
"The remains and belongings of 40 people who died when United Airlines Flight 93 crashed into a western Pennsylvania field Sept. 11 will be returned to their survivors, the county coroner said.
The remains of all but the plane's four hijackers will be placed into caskets. The first sets of remains were shipped Monday and the rest will be delivered when the victims' survivors are contacted, Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller said.
Officials identified remains through fingerprints, dental records and DNA. They had been stored at a temporary morgue in Somerset.
The hijackers' remains will stay in the county, Miller said, and may eventually be turned over to FBI investigators." -CBS/AP (08/17/02)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/26/national/main502203.shtml

Plane disintegrates, but all the passengers are recovered. OK...

[MercutioATC]

125. Do you have ANY familiarity with forensics?

The plane didn't disappear, it was smashed into little bits...as were the passengers. It's possible to obtain DNA from little bits, hence the ID of the passengers after a plane crash.

You really find that difficult to comprehend?

[UCLA02]

129. Yes, quite difficult, actually

What did they actually test for DNA? The substances that were left after the plane vaporized? Was the plane made of crepe paper? Did they find a human cell here and there, test it for DNA, and label it with the appropriate name to be delivered to the families later? They would have had to do thousands upon thousands of tests to pile up enough remains to actually place on the head of a pin, let alone in caskets. DNA is also very time consuming. If they had multiple samples from each victim, thus necessitating caskets, rather than thimbles, it would have taken a lot of fucking time. (And the fact that they mentioned "fingerprints" and "dental records" were used to identify victims, when the county coroner stated he had not seen one drop of blood does not raise an eyebrow on your head?)

Bottom line: Please suggest to me how large of human material they might have found. I suppose it would be easy (and convenient) if the entire plane vaporized around them, and left the victims' remains exposed and thus available for testing. I guess you're right, it's not too difficult to comprehend.

[dbeach]

58. THANX

careful of neo-con trolls

silencing the messengers still works ..but it is gettin old.

beneath each bush is dirt..

[RamboLiberal]

64. United Flight 585 Colorado Springs-737

In fairness there was some recognizable aircraft wreckege from 585, but it went in from just 1,000 feet.



Several minutes later ATC cleared the 737 to descend to 10,000 feet and 3 minutes later requested they descend to 8,500 feet. When the aircraft reported "airport in sight" they were instructed to maintain 8,500 feet until on base leg, then they were cleared for a visual approach to runway 35, and to contact the Tower on 119.9Mhz. On final the Captain was flying the aircraft, the first officer was handling communications, the runway was in sight, the aircraft was configured, and the checklist was complete. The aircraft was turning from its 45° intercept to the extended runway centerline, and the first officer called "we're at 1,000 feet."

Dozens of witnesses in the community directly under the extended centerline watched as the airplane levelled off momentarily on the runway heading, 3.5 miles from the threshold. Then, it rolled to the right, pitched down until reaching a nearly vertical attitude, and compacted itself into a 39-foot wide, 15-foot deep crater in an area known as Widefield Park. All onboard were killed.

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-ua585.shtml

In a nose down high speed crash it is possible 93 compacted itself in to that crater IMHO. And aren't you guys forgetting eyewitnesses who saw the plane crash. I talked to that farmer a couple of years ago up at Shanksville. He saw the plane in an inverted position come screaming in.

[MrSammo1]

90. forgetting eyewitnesses

Hearsay is meaningless when the physical evidence says otherwise.

[RamboLiberal]

102. Hearsay? Bullshit - people saw that plane going in

That's not hearsay! What most of you are basing your deluded beliefs on that a plane didn't crash at the Pentagon and at Shanksville is pictures! That is hearsay. I've never seen testimony on this from those who were at either site.

[Andre II]

103. Ok

Pray tell me:
How many people saw the plane crashing?

[MrSammo1]

107. Then where.......

is the evidence of what they say?

[satya]

65. Hear what Rumsfeld had to say about it in this NPR report:

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4244364

(at 3:35 into the clip).

And a couple of months later, Cynthia McKinney tries to question Rummy on the record about the 9-11 war games:

McKinney: Well Mr. Chairman, the problem is - and I appreciate your adherence to the five-minute rule - however there are many of us who have important questions and my question in particular is about the four war games that were taking place on September 11th and how they may have impaired our ability to respond to those attacks.

<snip>

At this point Representative Skelton (D-MO) asked a visibly flustered Donald Rumsfeld if in the future a classified briefing could occur on the recommendations given by General Luck and his team to the Secretary.

This helped to bury McKinney's question (and by necessity, the process continues: DoD has posted a peculiar "transcript" of the meeting's final moments, from which Representative McKinney's question has been thoroughly deleted), giving Rumsfeld a way to divert attention from the issue she had skillfully placed on the record. Rumsfeld responded to Skelton's question without addressing McKinney's at all. The only response to her question came in the form of both Rumsfeld and Myers' rapid hand movements and off-microphone murmurs. The issue seemed to knock Rumsfeld off-balance, affecting him as it had affected Ralph "Ed" Eberhart at the final 9/11 Commission hearing.

It's unlikely that "No comment" will be an acceptable reply to Representative McKinney's question. Eberhart got away with that when responding to this reporter, and has since retired from his post heading both NORTHERN COMMAND and NORAD. His retirement came immediately after the 2004 presidential election. It appears "no comment" will be his final word on the matter, but that will not be the case for Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers.

link: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/030105_mckinney_question.shtml#0

As Lil Boots would say, "connect the dots"...

[satya]

66. A warning about the DoD link in my post above:

I noticed it flashed 'statse.webtrends.live' ... before it took me to the DoD site. It should come as no surprise to know that there is tracking software there, but FYI...

[RamboLiberal]

69. Anyone know of an author - Devey Kidd?

Just asking cause I happened across her 3 part report on Flight 93 tonight - interesting read, but I know nothing about her? She went up to Shanksville and interviewed a number of the local witnesses.

On edit - a quick google of the author leads me to believe she's one of the wingnuts - still she respectfully references Cynthia McKinney(says get the DVD of briefing), Paul Thompson and Michael Ruppert - so I still think it is an interesting read FWIW.

http://www.devvy.com/flight_93_part_1.html

Some snippets

One of the things that has caused a great deal of confusion and speculation about the crash of Flight 93 is the "entry," if you will, of the plane into the ground. As I said in part two, Flight 93 slammed into the ground at approximately 585 mph. I learned a great deal about strip mining while in the Shanksville area, i.e., what strip mining does to the soil and surrounding area. The easiest way I can describe it is to picture a bed with a blanket on the mattress. The mining company basically lifts the blanket, meaning a large area of top soil, extracts the ore and then lays the blanket back down. The result is that when Flight 93 hit the ground, it didn't break up like you see in other aviation disaster photos. My husband and I were at a United Air Lines crash site, very up close, back in the early 90s; it's something you don't forget. There was a great deal of wreckage everywhere, but the fuselage, while visible, was buried into the ground.

In the case of Flight 93, the ground swallowed what didn't disintegrate. The ground also, due to the effects of strip mining, continues to "belch" up rocks and debris. In this case, small pieces of the plane. One of the engines did bounce and landed in a nearby small body of water which I observed. Once you understand the effects of strip mining on the soil (top and deeper down), viewing the excavation photo in part one, and having been to the site, you can begin to understand why the first photos of the smoking ground look so "odd" and out of step with other plane crashes. In my mind, there is absolutely no question that Flight 93 crashed where the official crash site is marked.

Our next interview (three) was in Shanksville with the former Mayor, Ernest Stull; he lost his bid for reelection in November 2004. Mr. Stull, like many others, was very wary of strangers requesting an interview. These folks are very gun shy because they have been used by the media and the resentment is as thick as syrup. After a few minutes, Ernie began to speak with us and answer questions. That interview is here. One thing became very apparent speaking with Ernie: He was very angry that this unidentified German film company had taken his comments out of context and that at one point last year, he and his attorneys were ready to get on a plane to Germany to file suit against that organization. Since the web site maintained by this German film company was pulled from the Net earlier this year, it is apparent that they backed down rather than get sued.

At Ernie's recommendation, Dane and I proceeded to find Nevin Lambert's farm house. This very humble, hard working farmer was standing facing Flight 93 as it came barreling towards him and his farm house. Had the plane not gone into the ground in front of that tree line, it most likely would have hit Nevin and his house, because as he said during our very lengthy interview, he was rooted to the spot and thought he couldn't have moved even if he wanted to, he was that shocked. Nevin Lambert, besides Nena Lensbouer who was delivering sandwiches to the scrap yard that overlooks the site, are probably the 'best' eye witnesses to the approach of the plane, how out of control it was and the eventual crash.

[spooked911]

78. I don't buy the strip mine explanation-- soil is soil & it will pack down

with time.

If they want to say the plane disappeared into soft ground, fine, but then they can't say it also blew up and scattered pieces all over either, and also say that the engine bounced away. Either the ground swallowed the plane or it blew up upon impact.

[balzac]

70. I figure flight 93 was shot down.

The Todd Beamer story didn't sound plausible to me. It seems like the propaganda based on Jessica Lynch or Pat Tillman.

One of the plane's engines might leave a crater like that. Obviously that's not the wreckage of a whole plane.

Still, we must not take leave of our senses or reason. I'm selective about my conspiracy theories.

plausible, even likely - Bush administration complicit in 9/11, Zarqawi doesn't exist, most recent Bin Laden audio is fake, most if not all Al Qaeda audio tapes are fake, Bush admin wants us to get attacked again, many rank-and-file republicans want us to get attacked again

unbelievable - Explosives in WTC towers, missile hit Pentagon, reptile shapeshifters, etc.

[mirandapriestly]

71. Excellent comparison - Jessica Lynch & Pat Tillman, exactly! nt

[mike923]

77. The thought i have....

there were multiple phone calls made from the passengers and messages left on answering machines. Multiple stories of the passengers taking a vote and deciding to rush the cockpit. The story goes, that the plane went down moments after these phone calls ended. Making the "shot down" theory dependent on that happening at the exact same time as the struggle in the cockpit.

[spooked911]

72. cool post, Kill!

[erpowers]

73. No Fire?

Something I thought of after you mentioned the grass is if a plane did crash their (and I am not sure it did not)wouldn't the grass be on fire. To some degree it seems like a plane crashing in a crater would cause at least a small forest fire, especially if the grass is dry. Is that what you were talking about when you were talking about how the grass is still dry and long?

[MrSammo1]

93. The area was recently planted with

genetically modified grass seed. The same seed was used on the Pentagon lawn.

It's fire proof!!!

;o)

[AZCat]

110. We actually have fire-resistant grass here

Out at the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge there is a lot of non-native grass, mainly because it is more fire-resistant than local grasses. When a grass fire sweeps through the area the non-native grasses recover faster than the natives, and several iterations of this have produced a particularly tough strain.

It's not genetically modified, though.

[killtown]

119. Yes, the lack of fire damage to the tall dry grass

is inconsistent with a crash of a large aircraft loaded with tons of jet fuel.

[mdmc]

74. can I still post on this thread?

:kick:

[Wiggles85]

79. Shameless

I love how you stripped the entire scene completely of all context from the movie, in which there really was a 757 hijacked by terrorists, alonge with 3 other plane.

So despite your attempt to hijack A&E's movie to support your insane theory, no one is buying this baloney except other maroons.

[spooked911]

82. You got one thing right-- it was a MOVIE!

Do you believe everything you see in movies?

[Wiggles85]

100. Do you?

Do you also believe everything you read on Teh Internets!

I trust the much more credible experts who back up the story, rather then the army of idiots on the internet speculating on things they are clueless about, and stripping peoples quote's of any and all context.

It's not an issue of George Bush, or PNAC, or anything else. It's about the entire left looking like utter fools to everyone with a shred of sanity for the minority of morons circulating these myths.

[Andre II]

101. Ok go ahead and make my day

Name me just one single eyewitness from 911 who saw anything that he recognized as being a part of a plane.
Name me just one single eyewitness from 911 who found any recoginzable human remains.
Name me just one single eyewitness who estimates that the gouge of the crater is only as big as the tail of a Boeing 757.
Pray tell at what altitude did UA 93 start its nosedive and at what angle crashed the plane (look at the pics not too difficult to guess).

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jschurchin]

112. Well if nothing else.........

I am glad we are maroon's. For a second there I thought you were gonna insult us and call us moron's.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Mnemosyne]

124. One simple question.

Why wouldn't * and the dick testify under oath regarding the events of Sept. 11, 2001?

[jschurchin]

127. I think it has something to do with.....

"Do you solemnly swear to tell the TRUTH the WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH so help you God" Then again maybe it's just me.

[spooked911]

80. The weirdness is not the crater per se

I have no real problem with the idea that the plane crumpled down into the ground to produce a crater.

What I have a problem with is:
1) that the local coroner had to walk around the crash site for an hour before he could find one body part, and also that he never found any blood
2) the huge tail structure was no where to be seen, yet the black boxes carried in the tail supposedly were found 15 and 25 feet in the ground. Did the huge tail really disappear into the crater?
3) the lack of burnt grass or burning jet fuel smell noticed by first arrivers
4) the conflicting phone calls from the plane that make it impossible to know what happened
5) that the plane should never have been hijacked at that time, they were alerted, the pilots were on guard for hijackings
6) that the air force officially could never find the plane before it crashed
7) that officially the front part of the plane smashed apart on the ground and the rest of the plane went into the crater-- such that body parts from the cockpit were found outside the crater whereas body parts in the rest of the plane were only found in the ground, supposedly. I cannot see how the plane could completely smash its front apart on the ground then have the rest of its body completely disappear inside a hole.
8) the conflicting reports about how much of the plane was recovered
9) the lack of any large plane parts in any pictures
10) the secrecy about the CVR and the final minutes
11) no one on the scene ever referred to the stench you would expect from so many bodies getting incinerated/blown apart
12) the conflict about the time when the plane crashed

Add all this together with all the other weird things that happened on 9/11, and you get the impression that something very strange happened in Shanksville.

[MrSammo1]

94. I have no real problem with the idea that the plane crumpled down into the

Come now spooked911!

I've always given you more credit than that!

Miracles don't happen!

[RamboLiberal]

104. There were reports of the stench of jet fuel-I remember reading

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/10/1031608245087.html

A few weeks ago, Wallace Miller, coroner of Somerset County, walked around the perimeter of this area with a local landowner. He can remember his first time there, at 10.45am on Tuesday, September 11: the stench of jet fuel, puddled on the ground, the smell of the burnt trees and grass and the silence of nature.

When it hit the ground, the cockpit and first-class cabin broke off and scattered into millions of fragments that spread and flew like shrapnel through the trees 20 metres away. A section of the engine, weighing almost a tonne, was found on the bed of a pond 200 metres downhill.

The rest of the jet continued its downward passage, the sandy loam soil closing behind it like the door of a tomb. Eventually, the plane's pieces and its human cargo came to rest against solid rock, 23 metres below the surface, on ground that had been reclaimed from coal mining during the decade beforehand.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

Peterson rushed to the scene on an all-terrain vehicle and when he arrived he saw bits and pieces of an airliner spread over a large area of an abandoned strip-mine in Stonycreek Township.

"There was a crater in the ground that was really burning," Peterson said. Strewn about were pieces of clothing hanging from trees and parts of the Boeing 757, but nothing bigger than a couple of feet long, he said. Many of the items were burning.

Peterson said he saw no bodies, but there also was no sign of life.

http://www.centralpa.org/archives/01nov3groundzero.html

From a guy who's property abutted the crash site.

Three weeks later, phone calls from Somerset County coroner Wallace Miller and representatives of United Airlines confirmed our fears. Miller wanted us to visit the site so he could fill us in on what was being done to clean up and restore the property.

Look at the news photos of that God-awful crater, created when the hijacked jetliner hit the earth at a speed of 500 miles per hour and forever altered the landscape, both literally and figuratively. The blackened hemlock trees in the background of those pictures once marked our property line. Now they have been cut down as a result of fire damage and pollution from jet fuel.

My visit to the property is nearly a month after the crash, but there are ever-present reminders of the horrible event that destroyed the lives of 40 innocent people and the innocence of millions. The smell of jet fuel fills my nostrils. Everywhere I look, tiny pieces of debris cover the soft dirt. Coroner Miller tells me 98 percent of the plane has been recovered, but it is hard to believe that.

I bend down and pick up a piece of burnt paper about the size of a nickel. I gaze at it for a moment, then my eyes widen. It has come, I realize, from a paperback book that one of the passengers must have been carrying.

I live in Pittsburgh area and I remember the extensive coverage of US Air Flight 427 which went straight in to the ground. In that instance the rescuers talked of going to the crash site and being astounded there was almost no sign of a 737 and very little recognizable as human remains even though over a 100 people were on the plane.

Description of Flt 427 crash site.
There were sections from the tail, cockpit and wings, but much of the plane had smashed into pieces no larger than graham crackers.

An odd assortment of items survived with no damage. There were thousands of BusinessWeeks with "THE GLOBAL INVESTOR" on the cover, and suitcases that looked as if the passengers of Flight 427 had set them down in the forest and walked away.

Surely this couldn't be everything from a 50-ton jetliner.

"Where's the airplane?" somebody asked.

"It's here," said NTSB engine expert Jerome Frechette. "It's all around us."

http://www.sptimes.com/28-seconds/zulu6.html

I also saw extensive helicopter footage of that crash site and there was not that much sign of fire. BTW, the photos of the smoke from 93 very much resembled the smoke plumes photographed at the Pittsburgh crash site. After seeing photos of the ground in the United Colorado Springs and US Air's Pittsburgh crash, both sites very much resembled Shanksville - so yes I do believe Flt 93 did go in to the ground there. I don't know if shot down or the terrorists crashed deliberately, but I can't buy the wild-ass theories that 93 didn't crash. It would be too tough to buy off all the cops, firemen, officials and citizens who were there that day.

[rman]

131. Would be a first though;

"plane crumpled down into the ground".

But what really does it for me is the fact that there's no plane there.

[Andre II]

99. Of course there was a plane!!

Georgie boy told me and listen to all these eyewitnesses:

If they hadn’t told us a plane had wrecked, you wouldn’t have known. It looked like it hit and disintegrated,” Delano said.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12942.html

"It didn't look like a plane crash because there was nothing that looked like a plane …. Just like a big pile of charcoal,” Barron said.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

John Walsh: "When I got there, the plane was obliterated. You couldn't see the cockpit or the wings or nothing."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

Lee Purbaugh: “There was nothing there. Everything was shredded.”
(Among the Heroes, 299)

Nick Tweardy : “You couldn’t see nothing,” said Nick Tweardy, 20, of Stonycreek Township. “We couldn’t tell what we were looking at. There’s just a huge crater in the woods.”
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12940.html

Nina Lensbouer: "But I got there and there was nothing, nothing there but charcoal. Instantly, it was charcoal."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

And also officials state the same:
"We haven't seen anything bigger than a phone book, certainly nothing that would resemble a part of a plane," said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police.
(Cox News Service, 9/12/01 b)

Lyle Szupinka, State Police Major : "If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash”.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

[jschurchin]

111. This passage just doesn't make sense.

I pulled this from the Post-Gazette article. What troubles me about it is the first line.

"Later in the afternoon, state police allowed reporters to enter the crash area. It was incongruously serene. Under a bright sun, the site where all 45 aboard the plane were killed was most remarkable for how unremarkable it appeared."

When U.S. Air Flight 427 crashed in Aliquippa, PA on 9/8/94 the authorities did not allow anyone except first responders and the NTSB anywhere near the crash site for week's, due to evidence collection and remains recovery.
This statement is very puzzling, if there are human body parts and wreckage in the area, why in the world are they allowing reporters(civilians) into the area.
It just doesn't make sense, this case is very puzzling.

[Jazz2006]

130. Yeah, this does seem odd....

...but most plane crashes occur when pilots are diligently trying to avoid crashing, and at much slower speeds than this plane was flying, so i'm not convinced that comparing this crash site to crash sites of other crashes in which the same factors were not present is particularly telling of anything.

[kevinam]

114. What caused the crater...

Okay, you don't think there was a plane there. What do you think caused the crater, and the broken/burned trees??

Kevin.

[killtown]

116. Not Flight 93

Trying to guess anything else is just a distraction.

[kevinam]

121. A distraction???

"Trying to guess anything else is just a distraction."

Is everything else you post/website about flight 93, just a "guess"?? In your initial post, your 4th picture has the caption "Notice the long dry grass still seen all the way up to the rim of the crater which means no aircraft with tons of jetfuel crashed into the ground and caused this crater."

First, the perspective of the picture makes depth perception impossible. Something still caused a crater there, something still burned. The trees in the background are burned. That is very relevent to your assertion that it wasn't a plane. It had to be something, fairly large with a substantial amount of flammables, that didn't burn grass inside the crater, and on the rim of the crater.

There are reports, even on your website about plane debris miles from the crash site. If flight 93 landed in Cleveland, where did the debris come from??

Kevin.

[killtown]

122. Yes, a distraction

Lot's a things could have caused that crater and there are lots of ways to create evidence 8 miles away. The bottom line is that if Flight 93 didn't crash and cause that crater, everything is a moot point; a distraction.

[MrSammo1]

123. a distraction

or an outright lie.

[killtown]

115. FOX NEWS LIVE REPORT: No plane crash at Shanksville

FOX NEWS LIVE 9/11: No plane debris at Flight 93 crash site



http://www.zippyvideos.com/6767456763561206/foxnews-flt93-no-plane-pa/

FOX News reporter: It looks like there's nothing there, except for a hole in the ground.

Photographer Chris Konicki: Ah, basically that's right. The only thing you can see from where we where, ah, was a big gouge in the earth and some broken trees. We could see some people working, walking around in the area, but from where we could see it, there wasn't much left.

Reporter: Any large pieces of debris at all?

Konicki: Na, there was nothing, nothing that you could distinguish that a plane had crashed there.

Reporter: Smoke? Fire?

Konicki: Nothing. It was absolutely quite. It was, uh, actually very quiet. Um, nothing going on down there. No smoke. No fire. Just a couple of people walking around. They looked like part of the NTSB crew walking around, looking at the pieces..."

[killtown]

117. A&E's Flight 93 trailer on ZippyVideos

A&E's Flight 93 - crash scene

[dchill]

118. Well, of course!

Every bit of evidence from all four planes was completely obliterated in their fiery crashes - except Mohammed Atta's ID, of course.

;)

[killtown]

120. ____Btw, was there any NIST report about Flight 93 crash?

Weird if there wasn't. That would just be more evidence of a cover-up.

[Kesha]

133. Has anyone ever noticed a strange object in this pic?

...do you see the skull in the center of the image?

Odd...


Kesha

[mirandapriestly]

136. no, are you serious?nt

[rman]

138. Kinda like "the face on Mars",

right?

[Kesha]

139. looks like a real skull...

If you're using XP, save the image to your desktop and open it from there.
Now zoom in, 'bout 200-400%... or use any other graphics prog.

Looks like a real skull to me, it`s lower half partially hidden behind
this piece of paper/aluminium.

No new CT intended, just an observation... ;-)


Kesha

[rman]

143. I think the pic is to poor quality

to determine if it is a skull or not.

If it were a skull, then isn't it strange that it ended up above ground while the entire plane disappeared under ground, never to be found again?

[mirandapriestly]

146. well, I don't think it is a real skull, I think someone stuck the image

in there, it's too transparent to be real and it's not crushed or anything. But it definitely is a rendering or photo of a skull, I mean there is no doubt about it. I don't know if it is as a joke or to try to fool people. Which makes me wonder about the veracity of many of the pictures we see.

[mirandapriestly]

141. oh weird I enlarged it in "My pictures"

and can see it. Now I'm going to spend all night enlarging stuff...It's right behind that rectangular piece of paper near the front of the "black hole"

[flyarm]

135. what i want answered is ..why do we have all these reports of passengers

calls from flt 93 ..and nothing from crew members..such as flt attend...

why were there so many reports over and over about "lets roll" and nothing public about any calls from crew members on that flight..at least one crew member should have attempted to contact flight opps for united..to either sneak back and get a call through..or use a passengers phone..or connection to get to flight opps..or flight service or anyone with united...

or have one of the passengers tell anyone they talked to to get hold of united..

it is imperative for a flight attendant to get info to the airline of what is going on inside that cabin..and we have heard little to nothing about that flight crew!

same with UAL flt175...no calls from flight attendants ?? to anyone???

AA flight 11 had two flight attendants call opps..or try to get calls throught to opps...and no one from the flight crew on either UAL planes tried to call opps to get info to them??

hmmmmmmmmmm yeah sure..

lets just look at one simple thing that we got from a memo this week...

this administration was planning to paint a military plane to look like a UN aircraft and fly over iraq..
folks..all in "plain sight"..or plane site..

fly

[killtown]

142. 2 flt attendants allegedly called, but it's irrelevant

because the plane didn't crash where we were told.


http://killtown.911review.org/chart.html#phone_calls

[Virginia Dare]

137. It was shot down...

I've always thought since day one it was shot down. I have no idea what caused the crater, I'm not smart enough to figure that out, but the damn plane was SHOT DOWN!!!!

My first theory was that they covered it up to protect the pilot or pilots who did it, but now I'm not so sure, since the Moussaoui trial, I have a new theory.

I think 9/11 was a busted plot. Something went wrong with Flight 93. After Mossaoui stood up in the court and said it was supposed to hit the White House, I knew immediately that must be bullshit. Why hit the White House, Bush wasn't even there? The World Trade Center was a no-brainer, because they could sell the fact that it was OBL who did it. The Pentagon was another logical choice. They hit the one side of the building that would cause the least amount of casualties. It was newly renovated, most people had yet to move in. They had installed fire-proof walls which would contain the blaze from spreading and destroying the whole building. Is it just a coincidence, that this is the exact side of the building that was hit?

I think 93 was supposed to hit the Capitol Building, and then one of two things happened.

A) something went wrong on board, so they had to abort.

B) somebody else got word and purposely intercepted it.


I think that's why Bush looked like he had just poo-pooed his pants when Card whispered to him. He was actually telling him that things were awry.

I think that's why the anthrax attacks ensued, it was Plan B.

This was an unadulterated power grab by PNAC, in an attempt to destroy our Democracy. Because the plan didn't go 100%, they've had to take somewhat of a back door approach to things.

I shudder at what else they have planned for us.

[The Straight Story]

145. Read this yet?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-08-12-hijacker-daytwo_x.htm

[Jazz2006]

148. I'd never seen that before. Thanks. n/t

[Jazz2006]

147. Jesus (pun intended)

It's like a religious cult around here where someone posts a ridiculous assertion and others jump on the bandwagon to exalt the ridiculous assertion as though it was unassailable truth without ever taking a moment out for critical thought.

.

[mirandapriestly]

149. There's that word critical again

it's almost like someone keeps getting new id's and making new posts saying the same thing.

[Jazz2006]

150. That sounds a bit paranoid.

For the record, I have only recently joined and have never posted as anyone but myself. I have to say, however, that I find it shocking that you would make such a leap on the basis of the word "critical" ~ is critical thought so uncommon here that you would make come to such a bizarre conclusion?

[spooked911]

151. I'm still waiting for some plausible explanation for the physics of this

crash and how the ground could absorb 99% of a large airplane after it exploded violently.

[MainerJim]

153. Approaching it logically....

I see a lot of limited viewpoints, which is to say, viewpoints that dis-include stuff that would cause some reasonable doubt. Let me toss some of my thoughts out here, and if somebody wants to address every point with a good answer, then great. Because when I add all of these up, I have to say that I can't figure out where the flight went. Okay, There's the theory that the plane was disembarked somehow in Cleveland, but there are people who actually got calls from their loved ones on the flight, and whether the guy said "let's roll" or 'roll it", the fact remains that HE was identified as having said it by his own family member, so that puts him and by his own statements quite a number of other people on A PLANE that was hijacked. So, this says to me that the flight made it to Cleveland and left again, and was heard from by family members. Now, WHAT happened after that, I'm stumped. I think a full-sized 757 jetliner would have made a MUCH bigger hole than that, and I truly believe that the burning jet-fuel would have scorched the earth for fifty yards in every direction. So, was it shot down, burning all the way down, burning up much of the fuel as it fell, so that the grass on the berms didn't burn completely? If it did that, it would have reduced the mass somewhat while falling, but the fire would not have been sufficient to reduce the remaining metals and such to so small an amount. And it almost certainly could not have consumed the tail if it was not hot enough to burn the grass on the berms. No matter which way I go with this, some aspect refuses to add up.
AIRSPEED.....Okay, let's talk airspeed. A 757 with a good tailwind can do 650 knots easy. Slow cruising speed would be 400 knots. The airspeed guage said 300 knots? If it was going that slow, it was going that slow and cruising along flat and level. A missile could have stopped the guage at 300 knots while flying flat and level. I'll guarantee you that a 757 going straight down from just 3000 feet would be going MUCH faster than 300, probably would be doing 600 to 700 knots or better in a straight-down scenario, especially taking into account that the tail disappeared into the crash. If it was going slower, it would have had to be flying more level. The tail should be there, period. The only acceptable reason for the airspeed indicator is that it was stopped by a missile during slow, level cruising flight BEFORE falling. But that TAIL....If it burned the tail, WHY was the airspeed indicator readable? It hit the ground first and straight-down, right? If it burned the tail, WHY didn't it burn the grass on the berms? That much heat surely would have scorched everything around for many, many yards. If it DIDN'T hit straight-down, where's the tail? If that piece in the photo was burned so thoroughly, why was the foliage around it untouched? It hit, burned, and THEN exploded, and the foliage it landed on was unaffected by all the heat it HAD to have been radiating? UNLESS it was placed there by crews moving it about during removal, and somebody snapped a shot then.

Okay, I'm listening! But in the end, something's missing and every story presented so far is incomplete. There's a full story....we just don't know it yet. I don't pretend to know what it might be. Whatever it is, it's a dooozy!

[johnnie]

154. Hiya MainerJim

Welcome to DU. I don't post much in this forum, I just do a lot of reading. I hope someone addresses your post because it is pretty interesting. I don't know how many posts you need to start a new thread, but it isn't much. I would like to see this in its own thread.