How do steel columns just shear off in small sections ?

[Twist_U_Up]

I thought we were dealing with compresssion ?



For the original look here


http://www.zombietime.com/wtc_9-13-2001/

[rman]

1. And as someone else noted,

where is the 110 floors worth of concrete and steel that made up the actual floors in the buildings?

[DemInDistress]

2. Christopera, always talks of concrete cores..but where the

hell is it? I see no evidence of concrete chunks anywhere. How did those steel beams break apart into convenient sections just right for flatbeds to haul them away? And Rudy, why did that tyrant allow crime scene evidence to be shipped off to China? Government wants me (us) to believe fires toppled the mighty trade center (lmao) as far as I am concerned I want to see 200-400 feet of connecting steel and chunks of concrete debris before I lean the gov-t's way.
BTW, back on 911 the City of New York hired a videographer/photographer to monitor the cleanup. As the weeks and months passed he accumulated quite an album. He was recently in the news because he no longer will turn these 30,000 photo's and many hours of videos over to the city. He reneged on the contract and the city objected to his control of those items.The city feels that if they paid him to do that work then those items belong to the city. He believes since he took those photo's/vids he owns them. the issue is headed for court. Sounds exciting, 30k new never seen pictures of the destruction. Maybe some more clues will emerge with there release. I think he wants to use those items for his soon to be website.
If I hear more I'll post it.

[rman]

4. I think the idea of the concrete core + CD

is that the concrete was in fact blown to dust. Which would explain the lack of a large tangled mess of massive steel beams in the footprint of the towers. I think much of it was melted by thermite.
To get rid of the steel-reinforced concrete floors however does require a lot of explosive power - enough to pulverize most of the concrete.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to those photos and videos.

[hack89]

8. Do you think that the pile is too small? nt

[mirandapriestly]

17. ooh, that's exciting.nt

[MrSammo1]

3. I thought we were dealing with compresssion ?

The Goobermutt shills are dealing with compression.

The rest of us are dealing with reality.

[file83]

5. Seeing that the exterior lattice work withstood the collapse

of the building better than the interior columns, maybe they should have built the interior of the building with the exterior lattice work!!!

Your post is spot on. Not only are the columns cut into nice little pieces, but NONE of them are standing like the exterior lattice work is in these photos. Hmmm...

[hack89]

7. The core sections were build up from thousands of smaller sections.

considering that the joints are the weakest point of any structure, why is unreasonable to expect that they would fail when grossly overloaded?

[file83]

9. Wha? Are suggesting the exterior work is ONE BIG PIECE with no joints?

:shrug:

[hack89]

14. The exterior was built in 3 story high modules. nt

[file83]

21. Look at the photos again, they are broken off in a

"step up/down" fashion at EVERY floor. There is no "even" break point. Guess again.

[LARED]

23. That's because they were

built is a step up/down fashion.




Look at the square holes. They are there so the columns could be bolted together.

[hack89]

25. You don't even know how the WTC were constructed ..

because if you had you would know that the horizontal splice were staggered in elevation with no more than a third of the units spliced in any given floor - hence the step up/down you see.

[file83]

28. hack89, YOU aren't looking at the EVIDENCE. Look again:

Look at this picture and try and pass off that load of horse crap again.
.html

YOU: "the horizontal splice were staggered in elevation with no more than a third of the units spliced in any given floor - hence the up/down you see."
-- pure B.S.

There are up/down AND horizontal breaks. The ONLY way that is possible is if BY DESIGN the exterior had joints at EVERY FLOOR.

Wake up and smell it: :donut: You've been served.

[hack89]

30. It is explained here ...

If you disagree, let see some links.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch2.pdf

[Make7]

33. The following is perhaps a more detailed explanation...

... concerning how the exterior panels were connected to each other (emphasis added):

The exterior walls of WTC 1 and WTC 2, comprised of steel columns and spandrel plates, were designed to resist the lateral forces and a portion of the gravity forces. Above the 7th floor, the columns were welded steel plate box columns, spaced 3 ft 4 in. on center. The columns and spandrels were shop-assembled and welded into 36 ft high by 10 ft wide panels, which consisted of three columns and three spandrels as shown in Fig. 5–1 (WSHJ 1967a). These panels were erected on site by bolting the base plate of an upper column to a cap plate of a lower column. Such splices were staggered so that only one-third of the panels were spliced at each story level, except at the base of the building and at the mechanical floors where all of the panels were spliced at the same level.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1A.pdf   (pdf page 130)

Now to determine what is meant by "the base of the building" in the paragraph above, I will refer you to this drawing found on pdf page 131 of the same document:



Obviously the connection of the normal exterior panels would start on top of the exterior tree panels, which may explain why we see horizontal as well as up/down breaks in this ?pic">photo.

- Make7

[Kevin Fenton]

38. Slightly off topic

Would you have any idea where this piece of wall is from?

Like, which way up is it and which floors is it from? I'm fairly baffled. I don't think it should be there looking like that whether the building pancaked or was demolished with explosives, but the photo seems genuine.

It's from the South Tower and it's falling on the Marriot Hotel, to the tower's west. I reckon it's 15 columns wide (i.e. 52 feet - 5 groups of 3 columns) across and 9 stories high. Any ideas?

[Make7]

39. Hard to tell from just a picture.

The only video I remember seeing of that piece hitting the hotel started just slightly before the instant captured by that picture. Without a video to track the origin of that piece, I doubt if it'll be able to be deduced. If I run across something, I'll let you know.

That photo made me wonder if the Marriot was evacuated before the collapse of the South Tower. I don't remember hearing anything about an evacuation, or about the number of casualties there may have been in the hotel. Do you recall seeing anything about that?

- Make7

[Kevin Fenton]

43. Videos, Marriot

There are various videos of the collapse on www.terrorize.dk/911. The best ones are the ones from the south. However, I can't determine where that bit is from, because it is obscured by the dust and the resolution is not great.

Most of the evacuees who went through the Marriot had gone by 9:59, although some hotel employees and a few dozen firefighters were there when it was hit by the debris, which, judging by the witness accounts, appear to have done substantial damage. You can find a section on this is 102 Minutes by Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn starting on p. 229.

[Make7]

44. I could not determine anything from the videos at www.terrorize.dk either.

Thanks for the info about the Marriott, I actually found a survivors support website earlier with most of the information I was trying to find.

- Make7

[hack89]

6. Just out of curiosity, what would you expect it to look like?

if the joints and welds failed first, would that possibly be the reason for the small sections?

[file83]

10. Then why didn't the "joints and welds" of the exterior lattice work in

the photo "fail"?

Point is EVERYTHING in a building has "joints and welds", but the interior was considerably stronger being that it was the main structural load bearing component. So, all things being equal (joints n' welds), why does the exterior (weaker) section still standing and the interior (stronger) columns completely gone?

[hack89]

13. Because they were built in 3 story high modules, perhaps?

and they failed where the modules were joined together?

[file83]

22. Perhaps? No. Look at the photos, there is NO even break point

on that lattice work. They break line is random across sequential floors, not in "3 story" increments. Look at the photos - what you are saying simply doesn't match the reality of those photos.

[hack89]

24. Perhaps because horizontal splices were ..

were staggered in elevation with no more than a third spliced in any one story? Aren't you are familiar with how the WTC were constructed?

[file83]

29. post #28.

[Twist_U_Up]

11. look for the arrow in the first pic.

How does a section below column just blow out ?

[hack89]

12. How do you explain it? nt

[Twist_U_Up]

15. Well..........

seems how the column doesnt appear twisted,which would happen with shearing it wasnt ripped from the existing column. With compression, it wouldn't pop a void in a column.

Without testing being allowed on any of the steel we will never know.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

26. He asked you first n/t

[hack89]

27. So ? Why is it any of your concern?

He seems to think it is important but I didn't understand what he was getting at. I have no opinion one way or the other except that I believe that the collapse was a violent and chaotic event with heavy objects flying in every direction. I don't see how a single column would be a smoking gun for anything - what does it prove?

[Harald Ragnarsson]

31. Seems like you have an opinion about everything to do with 911

to me and it generally jibes with exactly what the Official Conspiracy Theory claims.

As to what it concerns me, do you only post replies to posts that are directed at you specifically? I don't think so.

For the record, discussion does not entail making a claim, and then ignoring a direct question on your claim and asking them to answer it for you.

FYI, Hack.

Apt name.

[hack89]

32. For the record, I could care less of your opinion of me ..

if it bothers you so much, why don't you ignore me? Sounds like it will do your blood pressure some good.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

35. My blood pressure is just fine, thanks

If my pointing out your sub-par debating techniques bothers you, perhaps you should ignore me.

As for myself, whenever I see crap being posted or I take issue with a statement, I'll address it as I see fit.

[hack89]

42. Good idea. nt

[Harald Ragnarsson]

62. Oh, that really hurt

I'll have a hard time sleeping tonight, I'm sure.

[mirandapriestly]

16. These pictures show what looks like cutting charges lined up

and the top third of the building being sort of sliced off quite precisely. plague puppy has an even better picture, but I'm not allowed to post the link - weird.





http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem1/

[Make7]

18. A hint on using PlaguePuppy pictures.

The DU software does not like to see the letter combination html in image links. If it encounters that, you will get a 'This image link contains an illegal code' message. To get around this limitation, you just need to replace part of the html with something that will work the same, but won't cause the error. This is one way to do it:

In this example link...

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/Lone%20Gunmen/lgm11.jpg

... replace the l of the html with %6c to get this...

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_htm%6c/Lone%20Gunmen/lgm11.jpg

... and the picture should post just fine.

- Make7

[mirandapriestly]

19. gracias..I'll try it..nt

[mirandapriestly]

20. another one

all the jets of smoke all nicely lined up..

[Christophera]

34. Concrete Core Blasted Into Sand & Gravel W/C4, Steel Cut W/Built In Charge

Some have made the made the mistake in identifying these as "core columns". They are freight elevator rails or their base sections with lateral bracing brackets. The super clean square cut explained at bottom. Cut not a torch cut!!



They are about the right thickness for about the 80th floor but the brackets on the side match the horizontal connections I've notated on this image.



In the high res link, green arrows are salvage cuts and the red arrow is the bracket shown above in the image of the stackd columns. To the left are the row of "Massive Box Columns" interior box columns outside one side of a core. The tops are cut square and level with each other. The elevator guide rails are salvage cuts, as Foxx says, cut at the top of the debri piles, not square and not level, but approximately so.

If those were steel core columns, they would show here.



And they would be seen here, instead of fine vertical elements that really can only be rebar.



and here.



and here.



And here, between the interior box columns and the stairwell.



Then, the 17 feet is accounted for here. Proportion is fairly easy to see, the width on the long side of the core out to the perimeter walls is too narrow.





How were they cut? The only possible way is that the tower was built to demolish. This image shows how a joint between the interior box columns and the connecting floor beams can be constructed to cut the column with high explosives.



Here is a page that explains how.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

[LARED]

36. Just to clarify

You believe these steel weldaments are;



freight elevator rails or their base sections?

[sgsmith]

37. Yes he does.

And he's wrong.

[Christophera]

40. Pretend To Clarify, Actually Work To Confuse. As Usual, LARED W/no Evidenc

e, just obfuscation. And, your helper chimes in on cue. When is admin going to catch on to your act?

[LARED]

41. I asked a simple question

Why not just answer?

[Make7]

45. RE: No evidence

Posted by Christophera:

Some have made the made the mistake in identifying these as "core columns". They are freight elevator rails or their base sections with lateral bracing brackets. The super clean square cut explained at bottom. Cut not a torch cut!!



They are about the right thickness for about the 80th floor but the brackets on the side match the horizontal connections I've notated on this image.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=76376&mesg_id=76683

You have repeatedly claimed that the smaller steel columns (relatively speaking) within the core are "elevator guide rails". I have yet to see you present any tangible basis for this belief. Giving something a new label does not transform it into whatever you choose to call it.

Since you seem to be concerning yourself with people not using evidence, why not lead by example? Why not present a well documented basis for your claim that the smaller box columns within the cores were "elevator rails"? Where is your evidence? Do you have any?

If you are unwilling or unable to discuss your ideas when someone questions you, perhaps you should seriously think about whether or not posting them to a discussion board is something you should be doing.

- Make7

[sgsmith]

46. His claim of elevator guide rails is just wrong

The box columns are not elevator guide rails. This is what an elevator guide rail looks like:





Per http://www.trioelevators.com/htmls/parts_1.htm
# Guide rails -- steel T-section with male- female type with machined guiding surfaces installed vertically in a hoistway to guide and direct the course of travel of on elevator car and elevator counterweights.

Per http://www.otis.com/glossary/0,1374,CLI1_RES1,00.html
Guide rails — steel T-section with machined guiding surfaces installed vertically in a hoistway to guide and direct the course of travel of an elevator car and elevator counterweights.

[Christophera]

48. Yes, Small Rails. Not WTC Rails. Here is Pic Of WTC Rails.

Ang these were smaller rails.



There were larger ones for the freight elevators.

[Make7]

49. On what basis are you calling those "WTC Rails"?

Can you provide some reasoning or evidence to corroborate your assertion?

- Make7

[Christophera]

51. Reasoning, & Corroboration, Evidence & Process Of Elimination

The smaller vertical elements are proportionately about the right size. The joint between these elements is very weak laterally. Not a core column and the building had a fairly limited amount of same sized members.

[Make7]

52. Other than the picture...

... everything in your post is just your opinion - there is not a single source upon which to base your claim.

Christophera wrote:

The smaller vertical elements are proportionately about the right size.

About the right size according to what?

Christophera wrote:

The joint between these elements is very weak laterally.

How do you know the joint is very weak laterally?

Christophera wrote:

Not a core column and the building had a fairly limited amount of same sized members.

I do agree that the steel elements pictured in post #48 are not core columns, but aren't the perimeter columns an example of same sized members? And weren't there quite a lot of those? And weren't their dimensions eerily similar to the elements that you called "WTC rails" in post #48?

- Make7

[Christophera]

57. Common Knowledge In Engineering-Perimeter Box COLS. 22 Inches Apart

joined by huge spandrels and the hole to access the bolts is too small.

Even house wives know that putting 2 sticks together in an abutted fashion is WEAK no matter how you do it.

And yes there were a lot of perimeter box columns but the variety of different same sized structural members we know of was not that great. Yes, they are close in size but there is no good gauge of scale. I do not see a 14 inch wide end there. I'd say more about 10 inches. We do not know what size the elevator guide rails were, we do know that there were several types of elevators.

[Make7]

60. Compare and contrast.

Christophera says:

...the hole to access the bolts is too small.

Are you referring to the access hole in this picture that you posted?

That access hole looks very much like the ones shown in this picture posted by LARED:



Why do you believe "the hole to access the bolts is too small"?

Christophera says:

And yes there were a lot of perimeter box columns but the variety of different same sized structural members we know of was not that great. Yes, they are close in size but there is no good gauge of scale. I do not see a 14 inch wide end there. I'd say more about 10 inches.

Once again I refer you to this picture:

Are you saying there is no good way to tell the dimensions of the steel element pictured, yet you still think it's "about 10 inches"? Where are you getting that figure when "there is no good gauge of scale"?

Christophera says:

We do not know what size the elevator guide rails were...

Yet in the post I responded to, you claimed that "the smaller vertical elements are proportionately about the right size" in this picture:



Are these not the elements you have long been claiming to be the "elevator guide rails"? How can the size of the "guide rails" be unknown and at the same time be "about the right size"?

Christophera says:

Even house wives know that putting 2 sticks together in an abutted fashion is WEAK no matter how you do it.

If I am not mistaken, isn't one of your main "concrete core" arguments (here, here, and here.) that core columns would have to be seen in this picture if they existed precisely because they were continuous full strength elements after 100% fillet welds were used to connect the sections together in an abutted fashion? And now you are proclaiming that no matter how you connect pieces in an abutted fashion it will be WEAK?

Just to clear things up - would the 100% fillet welded abutted core column splices make a very strong joint, or a WEAK one?

- Make7

[Christophera]

63. Yes, Scale Is A Problem-Abutted Long Members Only As Strong As Member

A bolted joint has little strength and a 100% weld only makes the joint as strong as the member.

You are correct, the proportions of the piece are very close to the perimeter box columns, but, they are joined with spandrel plates and we don't see that. My estimate of size is based on the size of the human standing behind the steel.

As an elevator guide rail, rails known to exist (no proof, common knowledge like the core steel or concrete), and also smaller than the interior box columns and having perhaps 3 different sizes, it would be about the right size.

[Make7]

64. Relative Strength of Members

Christophera says:

A bolted joint has little strength and a 100% weld only makes the joint as strong as the member.

In your previous post you wrote: "Even house wives know that putting 2 sticks together in an abutted fashion is WEAK no matter how you do it." Now you are claiming that if the members are 100% welded together, the joint is as strong as the members. Okay...

You said the joints of the smaller vertical elements in the picture below were "very weak laterally", but you have not produced any evidence to show how the members had actually been joined together.



So I am asking, once again, how do you know the joint is very weak laterally for those smaller vertical elements in the core?

Christophera says:

...the proportions of the piece are very close to the perimeter box columns, but, they are joined with spandrel plates and we don't see that. My estimate of size is based on the size of the human standing behind the steel.

It is difficult to tell for certain, but it looks to me like these columns are joined together by a spandrel plate.

And I don't think there is enough of the column showing in the following picture to make a determination one way or the other regarding the spandrel plates.

And as far as your estimate of the size of that columns is concerned, the relative size of foreground vs. background objects can vary greatly depending on the camera/lens used and the position of the camera in relation to the scene. A good example of this can be found here. In the four photographs shown on that page, you can clearly see how using a different lens can drastically change the size and distance that objects in the background appear to be.

In other words, guesstimating the size of the column in the above picture "based on the size of the human standing behind the steel" is very unlikely to be accurate, unless information about the camera/lens used and the location/distance from where the picture was taken is known.

Although.... if it looks like a perimeter column, quacks like a perimeter column, and walks like a perimeter column - then it is probably a perimeter column. There is also the small detail that it looks nothing like a elevator guide rail.

Christophera says:

As an elevator guide rail, rails known to exist (no proof, common knowledge like the core steel or concrete), and also smaller than the interior box columns and having perhaps 3 different sizes, it would be about the right size.

The fact that there were elevator guide rails in the WTC towers is not based on common knowledge. Most people have probably never even heard the term 'elevator guide rail'. How could it be common knowledge?

As an elevator guide rail it would be about the right size? At first you tried to claim these...



... were "freight elevator rails or their base sections". Your present identification appears to be just as unfounded.

- Make7

[LARED]

50. Those are pictures of perimeter columns

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/perimeter.html

[Christophera]

47. On 3rd Thought They Might Not Be, But Still No Core Columns In Core

The stacked columns on 3rd examination show a feature which would contradict my assertion that they are not interior box columns. One thing is for certain, is they are not core columns becuse there were none. If they existed they would be seen here.



The stacked columns have the square cut ends, not torch cuts, meaning they are interior box columns cut with high explosives built into the floors. In the ground zero night photo, the vertical steel inside the core area has rough salvage torch cuts. They are elevator guide rails and do not have the strength to stand and be observed in the above image. The bracketing that matched closely had me thinking that the stacked columns are elevator guide rails.

[dailykoff]

53. You know what? Most of them didn't shear off.

They burned. There's no way in freaking hell there are 220 stories of steel lying on that pile. Those towers burned like they were built out of balsa wood and that includes most of the steel.

[Christophera]

54. Most Big Steel On Top, Smaller & Sand And Gravel On Bottom.

We see the interior box columns acting as a retainer for 20 feet of steel debris. Thirty five feet has aleady been removed.

[dailykoff]

55. Here's how I figure it:

a) The basements weren't hollow to begin with; they had seven floors of their own structure in them.

b) There were 63,140 above-ground steel perimeter and core columns, many quite substantial.

c) There were 220 acres of steel flooring, plus assorted beams and trusses in the floor assemblies. And that's just the steel.

Where is it?

[Christophera]

56. We Have Only Part Of The Picture, And Short Many, Many Pictures.

As the steel should have been analyzed, the site should have been photographically documented coherently.

[dailykoff]

58. There's no lack of data.

There are plenty of photographs in the public domain, and untold thousands being covered up. There are also radiation measuring devices all over the city.

We just don't happen to know what they've been measuring.

[AZCat]

59. Read up a little on failure mechanics.

Compression results in shear failure. If you're having trouble finding sources, ask and I can recommend a few.

[libertypirate]

61. Really?

Compression in which direction?

I would really like to see those sources...

How much stress will be required before a steal beam shears off? Let alone MOST of the main supports in about the time and manner that a controlled demolition would do the same work.

[AZCat]

66. Here's a link to a tutorial on Mohr's Circle.

Have fun...
Mohr's Circle Tutorial

[Christophera]

65. Distortion Results In Credibility Failure - The Mechanics Of Change

But you've already run your anal denial into the dirt.


Consider that the forces needed to do that deform all the surrounding metal, particuarly below it, your assertion has evidence to the contrary.