A word on this missile / plane issue ...

[Che_Nuevara]

I would like to offer my thoughts on the rehashed missile / plane debate.

I am not offering any judgments as to who planned or executed what happened on 11 Sept 2001. I am not offering any judgments in reference to MIHOP, LIHOP, or any other theory about the US's role in the attacks. I am not offering any judgments as why the attacks occurred or whether there is a link between the CIA and Osama bin Laden. I am saying nothing about 'secondary explosives' issues or anything else like that. But I will weigh in on the missile issue.

Let me start by saying that a relative of mine is the fire chief in Somerset County, PA. He was the first person to respond to the crash site of UA93. He saw a wrecked plane.

Let me also say that there are images confirming what happened to AA11 and UA175.

But ... If a missile struck the Pentagon, instead of an airplane, then where is American Airlines Flight 77?

After flights were grounded, all flights were accounted for at an airport except the above four. AA77 never resurfaced. It had to go somewhere, didn't it?

And the people on board? Before you go demanding the passenger manifest, why don't you hop over to Wikipedia or the Memorial website, take some of the names off there, look them up on whitepages.com and then call their parents / spouses / children / whatever. There are names. Names of people who were on AA77 who never made it home. And those names are readily available.

So tell me: if those people didn't die crashing into the Pentagon, then where are they?

[Tace]

1. Davy Jones Locker

[Che_Nuevara]

5. I think you're the only person

I've ever heard say "Davey Jones' Locker" who wasn't a pirate.

[dchill]

20. So what makes you think...

that Tace is not a pirate?

[Che_Nuevara]

38. Maybe Tace IS a pirate.

That would be hot. In that case, more power to him/her.

[AngryAmish]

60. If Tace WAS a pirate....

wouldn't he have said "Arrrrghhh, Davy Jones Locker."?!?

[Che_Nuevara]

63. Good point.

Although it could have been a "gyarrrr" as well.

...

Maybe it was a silent "gyarrrr"?

[Che_Nuevara]

62. self-delete

wrong spot

[Egalitariat]

30. How many pirates have you heard say it?****

nm

[Che_Nuevara]

39. I'm a Flying Spaghetti Monsterist,

so, a lot.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. You must not have served in the Navy.

[Che_Nuevara]

52. One of my best friends is in Naval Intelligence,

and he doesn't say it.

[paparush]

2. That flight was rerouted to Dayton's Wright Pat..all passengers

placed on UA93 which is then shot down over PA. AA Flight 77 is *cough* decomishioned *cough*

<Tin foil hat firmly in place>

[InaneAnanity]

3. Shot down

AA77 dissappeared from radar a number of minutes before the pentagon was hit.

[Che_Nuevara]

4. Don't you think someone would notice

a plan being shot down in the middle of DC? Or anywhere near it? Like ... anyone? 11 Sept 2001 was a weekday, and at 9am there had to be a hell of a lot of people out and about downtown. You can see airplanes miles away.

Besides, if you fly low enough, you stay under most radar ranges.

[InaneAnanity]

6. I'm not a military-man

The plane wouldn't have been shot down in D.C. It dissapeared from radar 15 minutes or so before the Pentagon was hit. I'm sure, had they planned it out, they could have found a remote area to do it.

Either explanation is hard to believe. Either you believe an amateur pilot could fly a 747 jet 5 feet above the ground at 600 mph into the side of a five story building (without messing up the lawn in front of the building, being seen by any drivers on the nearby roads, etc), or you believe the government shot down a commercial jet, bombed their own building, and has succeeded in a massive coverup.

[progressivebydesign]

10. Well... you're right, both seem rather unbelievable, when you mention it.

But I go with the former of the two scenarios.

[InaneAnanity]

12. I think the latter is more likely

But I don't think any of us can be sure. It's very unfortunate that NOBODY is willing to investigate any of this.

The whole WTC7 thing swings the likelihood to conspiracy, in my view.

[Cruzan]

44. 757 not 747

A 757 is much smaller -- less than half the length -- than a 747. A 757 is a single aisle narrow-body airliner; a 747 is a twin aisle wide-body.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. There was also a C130

that was supposedly chasing Flight 77, that flew over the Pentagon right after the explosion. The Pentagon confirmed this in the 9-11 Commission report. Funny, only a few 'eyewitnesses' mention seeing the C130.

[joeunderdog]

49. any links? hadn't heard that.

I think there's alot of government fiction going on here.

[progressivebydesign]

9. And what would be the odds that it would hit the building that way?

If it had been "shot down" a number of minutes before the pentagon was hit? Are you saying you don't think it hit the building? Cuz that's been debunked by many eyewitnesses... and if you're saying that it was shot down and just happened to go FULL SPEED into it's supposed intended target, then that is illogical.

[InaneAnanity]

14. no

If it was shot down, it wouldn't have hit the building.

A missile can hit a 5 story building at 600 mph. A 747 jet flown by an amateur pilot, that's another story.

[progressivebydesign]

8. There were numerous eyewitnesses that day who SAW the plane go in there..

THat whole, 'no plane hit the Pentagon' thing doesn't work for me. The shooting down of flight 93 seems very plausible, with wreckage supposedly leading up the crash... but the plane hitting the Pentagon, well I remember clearly that day when many many people called in to say that they were sitting in a car and watched the plane fly low overhead.. and fast.. and go right into the building. Really horrific accounts from traumatized eyewitnesses. The plane was going full speed (350mph I've heard), into a solid building.. I"m not shocked that there wasn't much left, supposedly. I think there are more fruitful discussions to be had regarding 9/11, like why Cheney shelved the Hart/Rudmann report instead of implementing it immediately, and possibly preventing the attack. Or perhaps the colossal failure on Bush's part to stop the attack, even tho the info was THERE in the intelligence community. The Pentagon - 9/11 - missile theory, just seems ridiculous.

[phylny]

22. I lived in the DC area and I recall many people on WTOP and other

stations talking about where they were in relation to the Pentagon, and how they saw the plane hit.

[coalition_unwilling]

24. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, as any cursory

survey of criminal justice literature will reveal. Many eyewitnesses saw a "flying object" hit the Pentagon, but not all of them said it was a civilian airliner and none of them to my knowlege said it was "the plane." Many said it was "a plane" -- there's a big difference, since for many lay people, a plane and a cruise missile might seem indistinguishable, especially if the flying object were travelling at a high rate of speed.

Furthermore, many eyewitness' accounts surface the day following the attacks, after the initial MSM reports had already put the official 9/11 narrative (a civilian jetliner hit the Pentagon) into the public realm.

[WoodrowFan]

27. untrue

there are lots of civilian accounts that saw an American Airliner hit that day/ Even someone with the limited intelligence of a MIHOPer can tell the difference between a missile and a airliner.

bye bye

and the rest of the "no plane hit" crap is just that, crap. A buddy of mine working in Arlington saw it hit, and he's no Bush lover by any extent.

here, some reading that isn't tinfoil crap. Read these sites and learn something

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911 /

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

[jmowreader]

33. This is a cruise missile

It's got a fuselage like an airplane...it's got wings and a tail like an airplane...if you saw this thing streak past you and you didn't know exactly what it was--ESPECIALLY since nothing says they can't paint it up like a little airliner--you'd call it an airplane.

[dysfunctional press]

56. i wouldn't call it an airplane...it's VERY small.

you must not live anywhere near any real airports...
anyone who has ever commuted into chicago via the northwest tollway/kennedy expressway has probably had the privelege of having an airliner buzz their car over by the rosemont horizon/allstate arena, as they were coming in for a landing...airliners are BIG...NOBODY is going to mistake a cruise missile for a large passenger airliner.

try again.

[treestar]

57. Yeah they might. People are known to be unreliable about the

size of a moving object, especially at a distance.

This thing would have been moving so fast - as would the airliner. Nobody could have "seen" it fly into the Pentagon. It would have been a blur.

[dysfunctional press]

58. airliners aren't blurs...even going fast, up close.

they are MUCH bigger than a cruise missile.
ain't no mistakin' it.

[coalition_unwilling]

35. It's end of the day and I'm tired and grouchy plus no time

to read your links. But I will try tomorrow.

What I was getting at is that no matter what eyewitnesses say they saw, their accounts are confusing and, as David Ray Griffen and others have pointed out, contradictory. Some may have "seen" a civilian airliner hit the Pentagon, but there's no way they could have "seen" and verified that it was "The plane" (as opposed to "a plane").

I count myself an agnostic on the Pentagon, btw. There are too many holes in the official narrative for me to buy it hook, line and sinker. Plus my awareness of historical precedent, e.g., Operation Northwoods, makes me suspect an intel black ops.

[CornField]

59. If a plane went in... how come a plane didn't come out?

Pieces of the plane's engine -- solid titanium -- just "poof" and gone? If we're to believe that either the plane burned so hot as to 'poof' itself and/or the Pentagon has some sort of defense which 'poofed' the plane, how are we to believe that all the passengers were identified through DNA?

Why weren't the windows in a direct line with wing span broken? Had the wings been sheered off by light poles, trees or other obstacles before hitting the building? If so, why didn't we see the wing debris?

Why weren't any cars blown off the road by the powerful jet engines? Why, when other planes have hit light poles and so forth, it bent the poles, causing the plane to crash... but in this case the poles were ripped up from their bolted bases?

I don't know what happened. I don't know if it was a plane or missle or what. I do know, however, what we're being spoonfed stinks to high heaven.

[progressivebydesign]

11. Regarding Flight 93, the wrecked plane would be there either way.

If it had been hit or shot down, the plane would still be there where it hit the ground (how macabre to discuss this stuff so coldly, sorry). The majority of the plane would probably have been intact, but there were reports of wreckage coming off of the plane before it hit. That does not make sense... unless the shaking back and forth, as described in the movie, caused parts to come off in flight..

[TX-RAT]

61. Reports said it clipped light poles as it came in.

[Johonny]

13. Where did the missile fairy go?

Did a magic fairy named sunshine launch the missile at the Pentagon? You'd think someone might have noticed a large surface to air missile zipping around DC.

If flight 77 hit the water where is it? I mean what fool lands a plane of shore. The wreckage will wash up to shore. Not a good plan in my book. It seems to me until someone produces the plane there's no reason to put on a tin hat.

[gatorboy]

15. Tapes of what happened were destroyed though.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6892-2004May6?language=printer

Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by a Federal Aviation Administration manager, according to a government investigative report issued yesterday.

It is unclear what was on the tape, but its destruction did little to dispel the appearance that government officials withheld evidence, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said.

The report found that an FAA manager tape-recorded an hour-long interview with the controllers just hours after the hijacked aircraft crashed into the World Trade Center towers, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania. His intention was to provide the information quickly to the FBI. But months after the recording, the tape was never turned over to the FBI and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans, the report said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This isn't a "conspiracy theory". Something is being covered up.

[debbierlus]

17. Exactly! SOMETHING IS WRONG, HERE!

That link again:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6892-2004May6?language=printer

Read the article.

Torn up.

Thrown in containers all over the friggin place.

CRUCIAL evidence.

BLATANTLY destroyed.

WHY?

[walldude]

16. It was picking up Osama's relatives and flying them out of the

country... Remember, all flights were not grounded.

[debbierlus]

18. Watch the Loose Change Video when you have an hour

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023320890224991194

Like, I said...

I don't know WHAT happened.

But, SOMETHING is wrong.

[Missy M]

19. I asked the same question in an earlier thread and no one...

answered it. I guess Barbara Olson had plastic surgery and will become Ted Olson's new wife this fall with the new unlikely name of Lady Evelyn Booth. I am in no way saying we know all the facts surrounding 9/11 but I am positive Flt. 77 hit the pentagon. I think Flt 93 is another story and I do believe it was shot down in Pennsylvania.

[alarimer]

21. This has been my point all day

There is no alternative explanation for the disappearance of all these people. None. We need to stop believing every kooky conspiracy theory. I know the Bush Administration is evil but this is the left-wing equivalent of the Vincent Foster "murder" theory.

[InaneAnanity]

23. I just offered one

Tell me the flaw.

[alarimer]

36. Someone would have noticed

in a highly populated region in the middle of the morning. There is no evidence of a missile at all. No one has reported seeing one.

[Avalux]

28. What makes you think they wouldn't do it?

I used to believe such things - there'd be no way, no matter how corrupt our government is, they'd use our lives for their own purposes - we are, after all, Americans. But how many instances in history have 'the people' been stomped on and killed by their leaders? I have no reason to believe these horrible men in charge wouldn't do the same thing in the name of power. What's it matter if they kill several thousand American citizens? They certainly don't care about the troops that have died for their illegal war or the innocent Iraqis who have died.

It's ugly, but I think it is possible.

[Cruzan]

46. Here Think Equals Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy Fantasy

And we can all come up with those and enjoy them at times just for the fun of it. But if we want to deal in real world rationality then the only currency is evidence. And there simply is no evidence of a missle hitting the Pentagon. All available evidence adds up to American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757-200 airliner, hitting the Pentagon. Some people may want to believe, feel they must believe, otherwise, but believing isn't enough. Nor is it enough to simply point out gaps or flaws in the account supporting AA77. If you wish an alternative 'theory' (and I hesitate to even call it that even after qualifying it with quotes), you absolutely must come up with affirming evidence if you wish to be taken seriously.

[sam sarrha]

25. if it was a plane, the videos would have worn a grove in our minds like

like the others they showed, the pentagon confiscated all the security tapes that showed the 'plane' crashing into the pentagon from all locations around the pentagon.

[name not needed]

26. The plane's in a government bunker in Nevada

along with Tupac, Elvis, JFK's brain, and everyone that "died" in the Holocaust.

[Xenotime]

29. They have been silenced.

This has been the greatest magic act ever.

[alittlelark]

31. sigh....

[Rosco T.]

32. Google for "Flight of the Bumble Planes" for one possible answer..

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. Don't bother trying to confuse the conspiracy whackjobs with logic.

It won't work.

They'll continue to believe that the US government disappeared a 757 and a planeload of passengers just so they could fire a missile into the Pentagon and say a hijacked airliner did it, despite eyewitnesses who saw an airliner strike the Pentagon, despite aircraft aluminum, luggage, airplane seats and other debris that could only logically have come from an airplane being found at the site and visible in photos of the aftermath, and despite the fact that it's documented that two OTHER hijacked airliners struck the World Trade Centre that day (and if the entire thing was orchestrated by the Federal government, and airliners were used for the WTC to provide verisimilitude, why not the Pentagon, too?).

It doesn't matter to them that their bizarre paranoid fantasy doesn't stand up to a cursory examination using the tools of reason and logic. They are True Believers. Arguing is pointless.

[Che_Nuevara]

40. Kind of like Freepers?

...

So what DOES separate us from them, then?

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. 'Us'?

This isn't 'us'. (It's certainly not me, and it doesn't appear to be you, either.) It's a vocal subset of DU members (by by no means all).

And as to the difference: ideology. But the dynamic of any group of people organised for an ideological/political purpose tends to things like groupthink, disdain for divergent viewpoints, demonisation of one's opponents, and expectations of adherence to a certain orthodoxy. There are usually more similarities than differences.

[Che_Nuevara]

50. It was a joke.

I know exactly what differentiates me (and also apparently you) from the people at FreeRepublic.

It's some other people on these forums I'm not sure about sometimes.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. "Conspiracy whackjobs"? Are you really trying to say that...

...conspiracies don't exist?

How about the Lincoln assassination...wasn't that a conspiracy?

How about Watergate...was that a conspiracy?

How about Iran-Contra...how many people were involved with that?

How about the NeoCons who conspired to get us into the illegal war in Iraq?

I could go on, but I'm about ready to call it a night.

Looks like you'd have to be more of a whackjob NOT to believe in conspiracies. Arguing with people like you is even worse than pointless.

[Cruzan]

47. No one has ever said conspiracies have never happened

But a conspiracy, like any other account of events, is not something you simply 'believe' in as an act of faith. Its validity can only be supported by affirming evidence of itself rather than just evidence of gaps or flaws in the 'main stream' theory. A whackjob posits conspiracies without regard, consideration, need, or even the slightest care, for such evidence.

[Che_Nuevara]

51. It would help your argument a whole lot

if your FIRST EXAMPLE wasn't wrong.

The Lincoln assassination was carried out by one person, on his own. You can't have a conspiracy of one.

And for the record, "conspiracy whackjobs" I believe is meant to identify people who believe that any coincidence must be a conspiracy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. No.

I'm trying to say that anyone who believes that a missile, and not an airliner, struck the Pentagon on 11 September 2001 is irrational, because it's obvious that their hatred of Bush & Co. and desire to blame the events of that date on Bush's administration has destroyed their objectivity, warped their critical thinking skills, and led them to reject out of hand all of the evidence which says that, in fact, it WAS an airliner that struck the Pentagon. Total abandonment of reason and logic and utter disregard for evidence which doesn't fit one's thesis is a very long way from 'sane', by any accepted definition.

[SPKrazy]

37. Question About PA Crash

why was wreckage spread out over such a large area???

it had to have blown up in the air to have spread it out over miles and miles

there is a hole where the plane hit, and some wreckage was found there, but what explains all the airplane parts strewn along the flightpath????

[Che_Nuevara]

53. Another question about the PA crash:

Why would the conspirators go through the trouble of getting a fourth plane if they were going to just shoot it down anyway?

[Awsi Dooger]

42. The passengers landed for a connecting flight

Then they were tricked into boarding the missile instead. So there you have it, the fact of the missile and the fate of the passengers.

[Bluebear]

48. I am mystified. This video still does not look like a giant plane crashing

I know these people are gone, I just don't get the whole thing. The more photos they release as "proof" , the less it looks like a catastrophic 767 crash. :crazy:

[MervinFerd]

64. You should not expect to see a plane. It's ONE frame per second.

The surveilance video is advancing at 1 (one) frame per second. Further, the shutter speed is slow.

You catch a blur in one frame. That's EXACTLY what you would expect to see of a plane traveling 350 mph.

Do the arithmetic: (350 mi/h X 5280 ft/mi)/3600 sec/hr= 513.3333 ft/sec.

The video wasn't listed as 'proof'. That's already available out the wazoo.

[treestar]

54. See the Northwoods plan. When it came to light it was at least

apparent that there are people who would try to engineer such a thing. It underlies the willingness to consider conspiracy theories, along with what we already know about how the press played us for the Spanish American War. That Pearl Harbor was LIHOP or MIHOP was considered for that reason. The Gulf of Tonkin was apparently a sham, too. The babies in the incubators in Kuwait were sham.

Anything that becomes an excuse for war is naturally suspicious, at least. Nothing wrong with considering it.



:argh:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. They're attending the new Elvis concert at an unknown location.

While listening to messages from God from the transmitters in their fillings.

[MervinFerd]

65. Spontaneous Airframe Combustion (tm)

"It's like Spontaneous Human Combustion, only with aluminum." (tm)

The whole plane just burst into flames and disappeared.