New debate thread

[ludwigb]

Right now Sharpton is doing a little demagoguing on race. Claims Dean is "lecturing people on race".

[tedoll78]

1. Well..

No matter what Dean says, Sharpton won't be pleased.. :eyes:

[Sean Reynolds]

3. Just too bad he didn't get a chance to reply.

They went straight to Edwards and then Gephardt.

But oh well. Dean I guess has no right talking about race. Sharpton's right, I bet Dean's a racist.

[ClintonTyree]

45. Sharpton...............

has no business race baiting......two words Al.....Tawana Brawley.

[SayitAintSo]

82. That's a convenient retort....

Sharpten has a real point here ... Dean lost a lot with that exchange - never seen him speechless like that before. Telling ...

[mbali]

99. Very convenient - and suspicious

Dean can talk about race all he wants, but when one of the black candidates challenges him on it, it's demagoguery.

Hmmm.

[ClintonTyree]

131. Convenient?

True. Not so convenient, for those old enough to have witnessed Al's behavior during that period, Al would do well not to question the other's on their racial practices and beliefs. Al was the first one to jump at racial conclusions during that affair.

[SayitAintSo]

142. You can't scream Tawana Brawley forever on every point

Sharpton makes on race ...

[ClintonTyree]

156. Forever?

I'm not going to argue this anymore, it's useless.

[chimpymustgo]

6. Deans reactions were painful. Edwards gracefully let him off the hook.

Instead of piling on - which he so very easily could have done - Edwards turned the debate to the larger economic issues.

Edwards is just stunning in his coming into his own, just at the right time. He is fantastic!

[MuseRider]

8. He really is coming into his

own. He seems to have hit his stride. He is a good one.

[ludwigb]

2. The Gephardt-Edwards battle

continues into this debate. It looks like Edwards is going for it, but he hesitates to attack Dean.

[Padraig18]

4. he knows where to harvest votes.

dean isn't that place.

[twilight]

95. I've noticed that too lately

I like Edwards just in case Dennis Kucinich doesn't make it all the way! :D

:dem:

[hellhathnofury]

5. 1#

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=101490

[Sean Reynolds]

7. Braun DEFENDING Dean!

OH MY GOD!

[tridim]

13. I love you CMB!

:yourock:

[ant]

20. what did she say to Sharpton specifically?

I missed that part, but the rest of it had me jumping out of my seat. Shit, this is a great debate!

[hellhathnofury]

9. Carol kicked them all, hard. Edwards fighting back.

Says he voted against Bush more than anyone else.

[tedoll78]

10. Theory:

Carol is fighting alongside with Howard Dean. Wow. She seems to be playing the role of his attack dog (and I say that in a good way).

As far as I'm concerned, she's on my fast track to sainthood.

[Padraig18]

15. They're friends, IRL.

[ludwigb]

11. CMB kicks ass

Slams everybody. Defends Dean. Gephardt needs to change his look when he's being slammed

[Padraig18]

12. Whoa! Carol SLAPS Edwards!

Dayum, she was on FIRE!

[anti-bush]

47. And Edwards smacks back

He dismissed her wrong statistic and pointed out accurately that he voted against anti-bush.

She looked silly not letting him or Sharpton answer during their time.

[Renew Deal]

14. CMB is on the attack on Edwards. They cut her mike.

It's getting wild.

[hellhathnofury]

17. Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

[AP]

32. She told a fib

Hasn't she read CQ putting Edwards at #1 voting against Bush?

[chimpymustgo]

79. CMB needs to chill. That didn't look good. Stop carrying Howard's water.

It's not becoming.

[Eloriel]

149. Her statistic was different from what Edwards pulled out

And they both are probably true, unfortunately.

CMB said Edwards voted with Bush 53% of the time.

Edwards said he was #1 in voting against Bush.

That would mean all other Senators are worse than than Edwards in voting against Bush, but that doesn't mean 53% is an acceptable percentage -- IMO, anyway.

On edit: And let's get over this notion that when someone says something we THINK (correctly or not) may be inaccurate, that it's automatically a lie or, in your language, a fib. Not every untruth or misstatement of fact is a LIE (which requires intent to deceive). People are human, they make mistakes. Sometimes they are misinformed, sometimes they misunderstood. In this case, I think it was neither an inaccuracy or a lie -- that, as I said, both stats are likely true.

Eloriel

[LWolf]

63. I thought she said Kerry.

I didn't think she was referring to Edwards. Either I heard her wrong, or JE did.

[Renew Deal]

137. She said John

and Edwards went off. It must have been to him.

[hellhathnofury]

16. Sharpton: Calling him on his past is not wrong.

He's preaching, claims he's not a racial hysteric.

[w13rd0]

18. CMB just blasted them all...

...Sharpton says, "Last thing we need to do is be fighting one another..." then he goes on to attack. Haha, Carol just knocked all those attacking Dean for a big loop. Outta the park. She's been SO reserved and polite, but seeing that display was blinding.

ON EDIT: Now Joe is hoping someone would attack him, but now he's being given the opportunity to attack Clark. I guess attacking Howard is getting boring. Joe bragging about writing the Homeland Security bill.

[ludwigb]

19. I like the guy--but Sharpton's being an ass

I tell you honesty--this whole Kerry/Lieberman/Sharpton attack dog act just leads me to reaffirm Dean.

[hellhathnofury]

21. Mods: (Clark quotes) Will Us be safer under you? When can we declare?

Joe: Wes Clark's statements are odd and troubling. Bush sucks though.

[Padraig18]

23. Clark's response:

*crickets chirping*

[hellhathnofury]

27. Ouch.

[jburton]

26. Joe isn't paying attention

hasn't he heard about the whole Paul ONeill story today?

[ludwigb]

22. Lieberman looks tired tonight

I think he knows its over.

[morgan2]

24. should start an irc channel

would be especially useful during debates to discuss things.

[hellhathnofury]

25. Kerry being called on Iraq vote. Attacking Dean on Biden-Lugar

[Padraig18]

30. dean fights back on civil rights....

[ludwigb]

31. At least....

he admitted Dean was right to oppose the war, even if he practically mumbled it and went straight on to attack. Response was too long--Kerry needs something quick and effective.

[isbister]

41. or people need

an attention span longer than a few seconds... Kerry spent the bulk of the time slamming bush, not Dean

[hellhathnofury]

33. Dean: Thanks Carol. I have minority endorsements.

"I will take a backseat to no one on civil rights"

Said Clark supported war. Gives Dennis, Carol and Sharpton credit.

[isbister]

59. Weak beginning...

good ending

[SayitAintSo]

87. And Sharpton said you only need co-signers if your credit is bad !

That was a good response ...you have to admit ...Sharpton is nobodys fool.

[Padraig18]

34. Dean fights back on Iraq

On 09/21/2002 I said this president wasn't leveling with the American people...

[isbister]

35. Re: Attacking Dean on Biden-Lugar

He pointed out that Dean supported it. He didn't attack. Kerry attacked bush.

[Padraig18]

40. And Dean also attacks Bush, not kerry.

notes the President wasn't being truthful with America on 9/21/2002

[the populist]

28. Sharpton is pathetic

how about expelling him from the debates from now on?

"you're racist" "you're racist" ... ad nauseum

[Renew Deal]

36. He is doing very bad today.

It makes people wonder why he is there.

[tishaLA]

37. Sharpton hasn't called anyone "racist"

you may not like him, but please don't misrepresent the things he says.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

90. You are right. Exposing Dean's negligent record on race was important

[mbali]

118. Better Sharpton raise it now rather than wait for Bush to raise it in fall

Cause you know he will, if Dean is the nominee. Dean had better get his ducks in a row and figure out now how to respond to this problem since Republicans will relish pointing out that Bush's record on diversity is better than Dean's. And claiming that there aren't that many black people in Vermont will not cut it.

[w13rd0]

29. Now asking Kerry...

...if Dean was wrong to oppose the war. Now Kerry is going to try saying that Dean was supportive of the war. More BS. No Kerry, it required that the IMMINENT THREAT EXIST. RUSTY MORTAR ROUNDS UNDER A HIGHWAY DON'T COUNT!

Ok, no more play by play from me. I'm getting angry, and lord knows we don't want anyone seeing us Democrats/leftists getting "angry"...

[isbister]

46. Read the IWR

and see if Kerry wasn't right.... bush violated it.

[ludwigb]

38. It's official

Kucinich is winning the debate.

[goodhue]

42. indeed

offense versus defense joke went over big and then huge softball to cmb made him look stronger yet

[Padraig18]

43. ummm, no.

*shakes head*

[Renew Deal]

44. I don't think it's clear yet.

DK and Edwards are both good.

[jburton]

57. I agree

He is the ONLY one talking about ONeill. Why the hell isn't anybody else? He is also getting consistent applause.

[goodhue]

48. Dean tries to cheat

by questioning plant in audience.
called on it and not swift on feet with alternative

[Padraig18]

49. 'cheat' is rather perjorative.

:eyes:

[goodhue]

60. okay, break the rules then

rules are made to be broken
but if you try to break the rules and get called on it, better have a back up.
simply amazing that dean has no questions of his fellow debaters.

[Padraig18]

66. So does everyone who runs over time.

big freakin' deal....:shrug:

[SayitAintSo]

111. **** Grand stand **** ????

Comes to mind ...

However they did call him on "THA rules ..."

;)

[Renew Deal]

50. Cheater cheater pumpkin eater

No biggie. It was odd though.

[tedoll78]

54. It was awckward for the debate's cadence..

but I don't think it's anything big. :shrug:

[Kathleen04]

53. Hmm..

now I'm cuious what we missed because MSNBC wouldn't allow him to ask the question..

[DancingBear]

58. typical Dean pandering

If he was any more transparent you've have to use Windex on his head.

[ludwigb]

51. The moderator

sucks. (But not the cute girl!)

[Padraig18]

56. he's better than koppel or woodruff!

:P

[w13rd0]

52. I'm a Dean guy...

...but that was badly handled (the question). He should have just said that he'd rather not take the opporunity to attack anyone else.

[ludwigb]

65. Dean is only ok tonight

Good response on reaching out to the South and on Civil Rights--but nothing much more tonight. Luckily for him only Kerry, CMB, and Kucinich are standing out by comparison. Who is advising Clark to skip these debates?

[anti-bush]

68. He looked silly

He looked like he knew he was subverting the rules, and the little smile because he couldn't ask the audience looked bad.

Combined with the Sharpton exchange, he isn't fareing too well.

And Sharpton attacks him again.

[Paulie]

55. Dean is wounded

and it shows. I can smell the blood in the water all the way over here in Chicago. :) :) :)

He's disorganized, trying to do soundbites, and is giving lame answers to direct questions.

Kucinich has been getting the big crowd response on the ISSUES.

[Renew Deal]

61. I agree

I think Edwards is doing well too. His blow up with CMB was rough, but good.

[anti-bush]

85. A couple doing well

Gephardt has done well speaking about jobs and health care, but hasn't been too memorable.

Edwards has done a good job getting into the big debates and making good points.

Kerry has looked a little beaten and is still trying to dig up dirt on Dean that isn't there.

Dean has looked wounded. He's had a bad couple exchanges. He hasn't looked good by any stretch.

Lieberman has looked like a fool with his speech (that was supposed to be a question).

Kucinich has been on fire giving the crowd pleasing, and funny answers.

CMB - I'm not sure if she's had any impact, although she has tried to stir up trouble. She seems to be pandering to Dean more than anything.

Sharpton - He's made it his focus to attack Dean, and has done a little damage. He has no shot in Iowa, and he knows it, so he isn't trying to progress his campaign.

[Padraig18]

62. nah.

he's not even scratched. he fluffed a question. :shrug:

[Renew Deal]

64. He seems confused

Or disorganized

[ludwigb]

78. Come on Howard....

You can do better than this

[White Mountain]

80. it is looking grim...

n/t

[realdem]

123. No he doesn't

He has wellreasoned answers and gets his points out. I agree the Kucinich is doing well and Edwards is always good in debates (wrong on issues) but Dean is doing great. No one is laying a hand on him.

[NoPasaran]

72. And then it's thrown to a break

Not a big deal

[isbister]

81. He's a lousy debater

better than bush but any of the others would kill him in a one on one... The large field helps cover.

[twilight]

116. the crowed cheering when DK spoke! :)

talked about getting out of Iraq and not staying there for years! They CHEERED! Go Rep. Dennis Kucinich! You are quickly gaining ground no matter what some "poll" says! :D

[Renew Deal]

67. He we go again. Big Al is going off on Dean again.

[Kathleen04]

76. I'm glad that they changed the subject..

enough!

Al and Dean could go 'round and 'round about that all night.

[goodhue]

69. Sharpton back on Dean

bad joke about credit

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

71. Dean answered his question

what more does he want?

[tedoll78]

73. Okay..

before this, I was a mild fan of Sharpton's.

Now, this is a really sh*tty, cheap tactic. Devoid of substance.

[Renew Deal]

70. Have you ever hired an illegal imigrant?

WTF, that was needless unless they have dirt.

[Padraig18]

74. *crickets chirping*

Next question....

[tishaLA]

86. Honestly, I think it's an interesting question

Here in L.A., people hire them all the time, whether knowingly or unknowingly. IIRC, it even brought down Linda Chavez from a cabinet nomination in the * administration....

[in_cog_ni_to]

113. Who asked that question of whom? n/t

[tishaLA]

128. The mod. asked it of all candidates

she is Latina (and from telemundo) if that matters.

[BeyondGeography]

75. Play by the rules, Howard

Attempt to ask a pre-programmed audience member a question is rejected by moderator Lester.

No alternative question planned for another candidate.

Another clumsy moment for Dean.

[DancingBear]

77. Edwards has brought his "A" game this evening

Very impressive performance.

[goodhue]

83. immigrant rights

bigtime applause for Dennis' answer

[askew]

84. Loved Dean's question.

I think the audience was p*ssed that the moderators didn't let the question get answered, considering the "boos" we could hear.

Also, I loved, loved CMB's smackdown of Sharpton. He is full of rascist rheteric attacking Dean on his "record" of not hiring a minority for one of his cabinet posts. And when Dean tried to state that he had minorities on his staff and senior staff, that wasn't good enough. It had to be one of his cabinet members. Seriously, how many cabinet members does the VT government have in the first place? And how is that the only valid measurement of Dean's race record?

[w13rd0]

92. six...

...there are six cabinet positions in Vermont.

[mbali]

122. What did Sharpton say that was racist?

[MIMStigator]

88. Is the audience sniggering at Dean too much

?

[goodhue]

96. too much for what?

[hellhathnofury]

98. "sniggering," how do you snigger?

[MIMStigator]

104. ok laughing at him

eom

[goodhue]

121. a disrespectful laugh

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/snigger

SNIGGER
Pronunciation: 'snigur


WordNet Dictionary

Definition: a disrespectful laugh
laugh quietly


Synonyms: snicker, snicker, snort

See Also: express joy, express mirth, laugh, laugh, laughter

[A-Schwarzenegger]

107. Yeah like when Dean got asked about Harkin not endorsing him...

[MIMStigator]

112. .

:hi:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

141. Good sport!

[SayitAintSo]

129. You mean like when Sharpton "bitch-slapped" him.....

on race and left him speechless ?

Or was it when Dean asked the silly question to the audience plant and violated the agreed up on rules and was called on it by the moderators and wasn't quick enough on his feet to recover from it by not having a question ready for one of his peers ...

[hellhathnofury]

89. Only Kucinich and Edwards are looking good tonight.

[hellhathnofury]

91. Holy! Kerry mentions Diebold.

[isbister]

103. He's been talking about doing this

for a long time... whomever wins should be agressive.

[anti-bush]

109. Very good of him to do so

He needed to bring up Diebold's contributions to Dubya while he was at it.

[Padraig18]

110. Booyah, Sen. Kerry!

:thumbsup:

[LWolf]

130. That's my take.

Kucinich and Edwards have it at this point.

Both on target. Clear, strong, precise, and to the point.

[LWolf]

154. That's my take.

Kucinich and Edwards have it at this point.

Both on target. Clear, strong, precise, and to the point.

[mbali]

93. Why is it demagoguing when Sharpton does it but straight talk

when Dean does it?

[ant]

134. heh

'Cause Dean's a white guy. Didn't I tell you people prefer to hear it from someone like them? ;)

To be fair, I'll admit that I'm a little put off by Sharpton's attacks on Dean on this issue. I don't understand the point he's trying to make.

[Renew Deal]

94. I will be a poll watcher for our nominee

[Padraig18]

101. I'm a judge of election.

Let's help keep it honest. :)

[Mass_Liberal]

97. RERUNS?HELP ME PLEASE

I NEED TO KNOW

[zulchzulu]

100. Time to call CMB the sellout that she is

Her vanity campaign is disgusting. She's gotten a free pass on so many parts of her own dubious record when she represented Illinois.

I remember the AFL-CIO debate back on August 5 in Chicago. I was doing a film shoot and was at a bar where there was a debate party going on.

Whenever she was on the tube, the whole bar would boo so loudly that you coudn't even hear what she was saying.

It turns out she did all kinds of shenanigans while she was there serving as senator.

[Renew Deal]

102. Why do we want to give licenses to criminals?

I am not for this.

[Renew Deal]

105. Lieberman supports the Bush immigration Job plan.

[hellhathnofury]

108. This killed Davis in the CA election. CA law requires insurance.

[Kathleen04]

Pandering..

It makes no sense to me.

Why can't we give drivers licenses only to LEGAL immigrants?

[isbister]

120. Go after the supporters of illegal immigration

Start severely punishing those businesses that practice unfairly and hire illegals.... you'll see the well dry up pretty quickly.

[the populist]

106. Kick Sharpton out of the debates!

This guy is an embarrassment to the party. He all but accused Dean of being a racist. I don't like Dean myself, but Jesus H. Christ that was a stupid attack by Sharpton.

Well, Mr Sharpton, maybe Dean didn't have any African Americans in his cabinet because there are very damn few blacks in Vermont? If Dean were the governor of Maryland or South Carolina it would be a different story.

Sharpton is a waste of time at the debates. He uses his rhetoric to prevent Dean from achieving his goal which is to stop the GOP from using the race issue against the our Party.

[Paulie]

114. If Dean can't handle Sharpton

How is he going to handle the combinded Rove machine/corporate media? Seriously?

[Renew Deal]

117. They are all f'n racists.

Rove and friends don't care about people, especially minorities.

[tedoll78]

115. Yeah..

Sharpton's stock has taken a fall in my book tonight. Utter crap.

[tishaLA]

119. How precisely would the GOP use

"the race issue against the our party"? I'd be interested in knowing.

[Paulie]

125. Easily

They make a front group, like "Concerned African-Americans on Race", and start publishing disinformation. If Dean can't stand up to the soundbites, especially with the corporate media not questioning the source, he's in deep doo-doo.

Same goes for other canidates, if they waffle even a smidge.

[the populist]

139. That's not what I had in mind.

They would appeal to the racists, not the blacks.

I think, in fact, that Dean's weak record on race relations would help in the november election. Bush likes to play the "the black folks will steal your job" card, and Dean is the best candidate to handle that. (even though I support Mr Moonface :) )

[tishaLA]

145. I agree with you there

but the post I responded to seemed to say that simply having Rev. Sharpton discuss race was divisive and that he needed to "shut the fuck up" about it. In fact, s/he said that hiring "black and brown" people in one's cabinet constituted "Jim Crow in reverse." So, admittedly, my question was poorly phrased. And thanks for your answer.

[goodhue]

126. yeah

Seems confused to me. BTW, Sharpton's presence was great in providing some drama about a real issue for Dean - accountability.

[the populist]

132. Here's how.

Working-class Southerners are wont to vote against their economic interests when presented with the race issue. Bush and co. would raise the issue of affirmative action to make Southerners afraid to vote for Dean.

My opinion: Affirmative action should take a back seat in this election. It will only hurt us when Bush uses code words to appeal to people's fears of "them evil dark folk."

[tishaLA]

147. "Affirmative Action should take a back seat"?!

thanks for the apt metaphor.

Needless to say, I disagree with you.

[the populist]

151. I didn't even notice.

That was a pretty clever, albeit insensitive, metaphor I just unknowingly made. :)

The less Dean talks about it the better. It's assumed our party is pro-affirmative action. Bringing it up all the time will alienate more people than it will attract.

[DancingBear]

133. One example

Bush = Rice, Powell

Dean = no minorities in 12 years as Gov.

I don't think it's viable, but they may try it.

[zulchzulu]

124. Absolutely!

The debates where he wasn't there were always more interesting and more serious. Since these are serious times and it is crucual we have the best candidate to run against Bush AND WIN, we don't need a friggin' court jester. It confuses the electorate.

Throw Al in there and it's some stand-up comedy sideshow. Faux Snooze loves this crap.

Exposing reverse racism is a wonderful staple in their programming.

Who needs to discuss serious issues and offer realistic solutions when you can avoid them with pig-headed claptrap.

[the populist]

148. His humor was fun back last summer

but it's gotten old. It's time to get serious. Sharpton's extreme positions on race issues is exactly what FAUX loves to use. Thankfully Dean didn't fall into his trap and didn't pander. I fully agree with you.

[tishaLA]

152. What are those "extreme positions"?

The ones that suggest equality?

[Renew Deal]

127. This debate is a meltdown.

I am unhappy with the overall tone and mood.

[SayitAintSo]

136. For Dean ... it appears ....

[Kathleen04]

143. If this is anyone's

first debate that they have watched..they're going to get an awful impression.

Too much pointless squabbling..not enough about actual issues, positions..the actual policy talk seems like an aside.

[goodhue]

135. Kerry on Spears

silly but lightens the mood

[hellhathnofury]

138. New thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=102087

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[isbister]

146. Where is Wes?

I didn't think he did so bad during the debates that he had to stop doing them... did he?

[Padraig18]

150. *NH crickets chirping*

[A-Schwarzenegger]

153. Debates are icky ewww.

Like democracy.

[Renew Deal]

155. He is spending the time in NH.

He would have to lose a day of campaigning in NH. I wonder how many people will see these. I still think the pre-NH ones are huge. Then again, this is so bad, no one might care.

[jburton]

144. NEW THREAD HERE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=102087