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Again, I can't decide between Dean and Kerry.

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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:25 PM
Original message
Again, I can't decide between Dean and Kerry.
After tonight's debate, I'm very impressed with Senator Kerry. I appreciate his command of issues, preparedness, occasional humor. I'm willing to put the IWR vote behind me. Kerry is also an appropriate choice since he opted out of public financing, which will make him the only candidate besides Dean that will be financially competitive against Bush. I feel kind of weird, since I know my support may not affect the race one way or the other at this stage. If Kerry and many of his supporters took a more open and less righteous approach to people, things could have been different.

I'm thankful for Dean's presence, but several things are on my mind at the moment, much of it unrelated to what is covered on the media. While Dean has great knowledge of the healthcare system, his command of other issues lacks the depth of several of the other candidates. The fact that Dean is recycles old material frequently has made him an easy target for other campaigns, and when Dean is slimed, his response is frequently poorly prepped. I do not understand Dean's position about *not* cutting the obscene defense budget, which renders his commitment about balanced budgets empty. Dean however does the meat'and'potatoes stuff-- the fundraising and the footwork -- that win campaigns, which is still a nice contrast to the out of touch corporate-run Democratic Party we have grown accustomed to.

The debate has had smaller effects on my approach to other candidates. Edwards's positive message is growing on me, despite being more conservative than others. Clark has intuitive strategic advantages for the general election, but in addition to my ideological suspicions, I'm insulted by Clark not honoring the debating process. Kucinich impressed me when he spoke about technology and NASA, but turned me off with the full-employment economic nonsense. (Gephardt "supports" this too incidentally.) CMB whines too much and acts like Howard Dean's attack dog. Lieberman, while sounding more like a Democrat, still gives off vibes that he digs GW. And Sharpton has become a real jerk lately.

Anyway, in a debate that looked like a disorganized circus, I commend John Kerry for his professionalism, seriousness, and dedication.

Best of luck, Kerry supporters!
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. When is your primary event?
I'd wait for a key moment of truth in the Dean campaign - "is he really bringing new voters into the process?"

If there's a surge in turnout at Iowa and it's linked to Dean success, then we will have confirmation that he can bring non-voters into the Democratic Party in substantial numbers. If there is no such surge, well then, we'll know it was all hype.

Other than that, I think pretty much all of the candidates are basically good on the issues, regardless of experience.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. March 16th
:kick:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Illinois too, huh.
Much of the field will be whittled down is my expectation for our primary. If Kerry is in it still, he's viable.

My guess is he won't be in it by then.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. sounds like you have made your choice
and if you support Kerry that is fine. The one point I will say as far as not taking public financing is that Kerry by and large is bank-rolling his efforts with personal loans and second mortgage while Dean has proven he can raise significant amounts of money from many people thru small contributions. I think Dean will have more to tap into than Kerry should he win the nomination. But if Kerry does win nomination I will certainly make him a donation.
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jadesfire Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. Don't forget the PAC money
that Dean takes and Kerry never has...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. it is Kerry's professionalism, seriousness, and dedication
which attracts me, on top of the record and accomplishments to back it up.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. If not for the IWR, John Kerry would be coasting to an easy
primary nomination. The saddest aspect of this campaign, to me, has been the repudiation of the party that he fought so hard for. His 4 terms in the senate seem to be wasted because he made one mistake that pissed a lot of anti-war activists off. Its a shame to see, but its not the first time (see Ed Muskie). Dems love to destroy their "best and brightest"...
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:35 PM
Original message
well, one mistake
on a crucial vote regarding war and peace is pretty significant. But, I'm not convinced that Kerry would be coasting. Besides the vote he has run a lackluster campaign that has failed to generate much excitement. The General's entrance into the contest has always hurt Kerry because they are both going after that war experience, veterans votes.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dean and Defense
Are you aware of what Dean plans to do with some of the Defense budget? Shift it over to investing in sustainable and alternative energy. Not only will that create jobs -- OTHER than in the MIC -- it will also help the environment and improve our defense posture because we will rely less on oil.

Eloriel
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Look, You Either Cut The Budget Or You Don't-stop the crap please
Dean WILL NOT and CANNOT. He would be lambasted as weak on defense and no VP or staff of Advisors could help him.

Unless we cut the Pentagon Budget we CANNOT accomplish what needs to be done.

Dean made it obvious tonight that he is hunky dory with the Pentagon misplacing TRILLIONS.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. dean, defense and budget deficits
kucinich asked dean how he could balance the budget without cutting defense which comprises 50% of the budget ...

dean's response made no reference to the positions you cited about sustainable energy ... i wonder how committed he is to the position if he made no reference to it in a nationally televised debate ...

furthermore, the question kucinich raised still remains ... kucinich just continued to hold up his pie chart (showing that defense comprises 50% of the federal budget) after dean's "non-denial denial" ... dean did not answer the question ...
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. He only had 30 seconds
and he covered the issues on the subject he felt were most important for him to cover.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. 30 seconds of double talk ...
he never answered the question kucinich asked him ...

how can you balance the budget without cutting defense spending ??

does dean have an answer for this question ?? take all the time you need ...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Clark Has Been In 4 Debates So Far
but anyway, I voted for Kerry tonight.

He has the capacity to clean up the REAL crap that's going on and would be less prone to mistakes.

Interestingly enough, Dennis' full employment issue is where he loses me also... :)

Edwards is conservative with Foreign Policy and has no Foreign Policy creds to bolster him against the Neo-Cons.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. apart from his committee assignments (security) you mean ?
for a freshman senator he has outstanding credentials and the razor sharp mind to understand what he sees.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. kerry and dean
your analysis about kerry and dean is very similar to my own ... except dean is not among my "still in the running" choices ...

i appreciate dean's "politicking" skills and i appreciate that he spoke for many of us when other, better known names were afraid to take any political risks ... but that does not mean he would make the either best candidate against bush nor does it mean he would make the best president ...

and i, too, after bashing kerry endlessly for his IWR vote, have come to greatly appreciate him ... finally, he has gotten his act together ... i genuinely believe he is the most experienced and knowledgeable on the issues ...

still, i'm firmly in the undecided column ...

my still in the running candidates are (alphabetically):
clark, kerry, kucinich

btw, i'm not at all concerned that clark didn't "honor the debates" ... he's participated in many of them and i'm sure he'll participate once the Iowa caucuses are over ... as to your "ideological suspicions", who knows ... i suppose it's worth considering but clark could be a powerful political combination of military, southern and progressive ...

finally, you said "things could have been different." ... sounds like you don't think kerry still has a chance ... i think you're very wrong about that ... kerry seems like he's one of the few candidates with real momentum right now ... as those of us who travel to vermont to see the foliage say when the leaves lose their fall color and turn brown, i'm afraid dean is "past peak" ...
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. My 2 Cents on Kerry vs Dean Decision

My preferred candidate is John Kerry. Howard Dean is clearly the presumptive front-runner in the polls, in money and in the power of his campaign organization. I harbor no ill-will towards Governor Dean. However, I believe John Kerry is far better candidate to lead the party against George Bush.

I believe the grass-roots progressive organizations that power the Dean campaign would have a far better chance of defeating Bush and transforming the nation if they rallied around Kerry as the best President for the nation, rather that Dean, the best campaigner for the nomination.

I provide below for comment and criticism my biased, but considered head-to-head comparison between Kerry and Dean on four major dimensions: (1) personal character; (2) Iraq and National Security; (3) Progressive Record; and (4) Open Government.


Personal Character

John Kerry answered his nation’s call and enlisted to fight and lead men in a dubious war in Vietnam rather than let someone else die in his place. The nation gave him the Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his bravery, service and sacrifice.

John Kerry followed his tour of military duty with a life of service, working to end the War in which he fought and leading a thank-less multi-decade effort to expose corruption in U.S. foreign policy, championing the environment, and pinch-hitting in the Senate for almost every cause that affected the lives of the poor and disenfranchised.

Howard Dean heard the call to Vietnam service and produced X-rays and a letter from his Doctor. The nation gave him a bad-back deferment and 1 year vacation on the ski-slopes of Aspen.

Like George W. Bush’s Vietnam Draft-Dodge into the Texas Air National Guard when he was “young and irresponsible,” Dr. Dean’s youthful maneuver memorializes the most shameful aspect of class and privilege in America – that the moneyed class can avoid their responsibilities and gain special advantages, yet end-up being celebrated for their success in life.

Dean’s life story shows a wonderful commitment to public service, but provides little evidence of personal sacrifice

Iraq War and National Security

John Kerry voted for the Iraq war resolution because he believed it was the only way to force resolution of the Iraq tragedy by restarting the U.N. inspection process. He believed the President of the United States (and since regretted it) when he said that war would be “a last resort”. At the time of the vote, he gave a substantial, thoughtful speech on the Senate floor, Kerry said he would strongly opposed any unilateral movement to war and that he did not believe that Saddam’s threat was yet imminent. He kept is word and led opposition during the U.N. debates against Bush’s “rush to war,” inept foreign policy.

John Kerry’s military service, his two decades of participation in international diplomacy as a leader in the Senate and as a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, allows him challenge George Bush’s conduct of war and foreign policy in a post 9/11 world and prepares him to quickly re-direct U.S. policy upon being sworn into office.

Howard Dean opposed the Iraq war because he believed that it was the only way to get his campaign off the ground. Prior to a campaign strategy decision, Dean is reported as making varied and ambiguous statements on the Iraq question, many of which were similar to other Democratic candidates. Dean’s own campaign staff described this newly discovered anti-war sentiment as a political maneuver to capture the “activist” movement and make up for the fact that Dean has the same foreign policy experience as governor George W. Bush prior to his election, that is, NONE. It is widely reported that he depends entirely on advisors for policy direction.

While an eloquent and potent critic of Mr. Bush, Dean’s statements on what he would have done instead and how he will deal with Iraq as president have been, to-date vague and incoherent. Dr. Dean’s fails the test of Credibility as Commander-In-Chief of the United States Armed forces. This is a MANDATORY requirement for a campaign against a SITTING PRESIDENT and a MAJORITY PARTY at war.

Howard Dean has not yet read the book on fighting international terrorism. John Kerry wrote it.

Progressive Record

John Kerry gets the best scores from independent groups for his environmental record and for issues affecting the working poor. For thirty years Kerry has fought for labor rights, women’s rights and campaign finance reform. Kerry’s record is solid on education and social security. Despite significant political cost, Kerry has opposed capital punishment, the NRA and all the fat-cat special interest lobby groups camped out in Washington.

Few senators have maintained a record so widely regarded as above reproach. John Kerry’s legendary indifference to special interest initiatives has been widely slammed as arrogance, aloofness and neglect of his “constituents.”

Howard Dean gets his best scores from the NRA. While Dr. Dean is often characterized as an “angry liberal,” he has admitted that he is “no liberal.” Dr Dean’s current positions are difficult to pin down, but appear to be at odds with his record and certainly his reputation as governor of Vermont.

His record as governor has been characterized as “Rockefeller Republican”, and is decidedly mixed. Vermont voter say of their former governor “he never saw a welfare program he did not want to cut.” Through his tenure as governor Dean made major cuts in aid to education, retirement funds for teachers and state employees, health care, Medicaid benefits, and welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled, all under the cloak of “fiscal responsibility”. At the same time, Dean presided over the highest tax rate in the state.

Now Howard Dean campaigns on a simplistic call for rolling back all of the tax cuts enacted since Bush took office, a position that is not only inconsistent with his priorities as governor, but contrary liberal policy that would focus on progressive taxation (increasing taxes on the rich and reducing them on the poor).

Open Government

John Kerry has fought to expose covert government actions in South-East Asian and Nicaragua, for public disclosure of campaign financing and for the freedom of Information in the Nation’s capital.

Kerry has himself been a principal target of secret investigations carried out by the Nixon Administration in the 70's when Kerry lead the anti-war effort.

Kerry’s record of pubic service as a prosecutor, in State Government and as a senator is open to public scrutiny. Kerry made his private letters and notes written during his service in Vietnam available for examination by the historian Douglas Brinkley.

Dean has fought to keep his Vermont records secret, and has now rejected Campaign fundraising and disclosure rules. He refuses to disclose whether he is abiding by state primary spending limits. About the sealing of his Gubernatorial records, Dean said, “We didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers.”

The former Governor's action to lock away his own gubernatorial records for an unprecedented 10 years has made a mockery of the Democratic call for disclosure of the records from Dick Cheney’s secret meetings, and of Democratic criticism of the administration’s love of secrecy. His effort to silence critics with a “Let a judge decide” disguises the reality that is one of the least expeditious ways to provide access to his records and the most certain method of delaying access for several months.

___________________

Fellow DU member, I hope what I have written is taken as a serious effort at a tough-minded comparison. I encourage criticism and other efforts to FIND THE BEST MAN.

IT IS NOT TOO LATE.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Kerry definitely needs better packaging.
I would package Kerry's expertise in the broad terms I mentioned above, and contrast it with Bush. Professionalism. Knowledge. A record of empowering people, not special interests.

I would *not* emphasize, at least during the primary:

Holier than thou patriotism. Democrats have been putting up with this shit for over three years, and many of them are sick of the demagoguery.

Hipness We want a president, not crusty the clown. Pimping a candidate as "cool" -- e.g., the silly motorcycle stuff -- doesn't help anyone.

Voting Errors. Voting for the IWR was a mistake; the Kerry loyal will realize this when the primary is over, regardless of the outcome. Kerry should have focused how his foreign policy vision is within the Democratic mainstream; he currently acts "I'm right; I don't give a fuck what the Democrats I want to represent think." Many don't care Kerry if Kerry is "right" or "wrong," we just want a feel that he is on *our* side.

Stop the Howard Dean obsession. Clark isn't obsessing about Dean, and he is surpassing Kerry in NH. Kerry needs Dean people to switch to his campaign, and pompous attacks on trivialities about Dean will not give Kerry traction.

I hope at least someone takes this advice. Good luck!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. dead on !!
some of the best analysis i've read on kerry's campaign tactics ..

it seems to me his message, since he put his new campaign team in place, has been exactly what you called for: Professionalism. Knowledge. A record of empowering people, not special interests.


over the last two or three weeks, i've heard many refer to him as the candidate with the most experience on the key issues ... it's helped him gain some traction ... whether he still has time, and i think he does, remains to be seen ...
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Early on
when Kerry was recovering from his surgery and Dean started the attacks against him he didn't fight back...he has stated that he is sorry now he didn't fight back and challenge Dean on the attacks he was making against the senator. This is what has cost so many Dems a win against the pugs...while I get frustrated with the bickering (I hate it actually) Kerry must respond to untrue attacks against him.

I was in the Dean campaign early on ... I left because some of the tactics proposed for use during the primary turned me off...because of this I'm glad when a candidate fights back against untrue or twisted charges against them.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Many Kerry people believe this interpretation.
I believe it is costing them. Look at Clark.
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. It's not an interpretation
it's the truth...and now that Dean is attacking Clark and passing out false literature against Clark I hope he will call Dean on it. We already have a president who lies and cheats and misleads. Dean's claims that he knows nothing about it is b.s. ...if his volunteers are loose cannons then he better rein them in. He is responsible for his campaign and what every volunteer and paid worker does on his behalf.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Every candidate supporter has their own "truth."
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 12:41 AM by poskonig
Dean does a great job staying on message; it is unfortunate the Kerry campaign cannot do this.

If Kerry wants "Howard Dean" as a message, just like Gray Davis made "Arnold Schwarzenegger" his message, that is not my choice.

I'm merely pointing out that as a tactic, obsessing about Dean isn't getting Kerry anywhere. The rightness and wrongness of your strategy has nothing to do with winning.
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Keep in mind: Dean got #1 by Attacking Kerry for a year as Bush-lite
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. I'd like to hear more about that, cheryl....
I always thought Dean should have been called on his divisive tactics and attack lies early on.
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CalProf Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. As a Kerry supporter
I can assure you, that among many of us volunteers who've put our blood sweat and tears into the campaign, we'd be really happy if the campaing staff would listen to your advice.

The problem for many of us has been, for over a year now: love the campaigner, hate the campaign.

If you could spend some time with him, personally, as we have, you'd feel as strongly as we do that he would make a great, not a good, but a great, president.


sigh.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. Motorcycle stuff
"Pimping a candidate as "cool" -- e.g., the silly motorcycle stuff -- doesn't help anyone."

John Kerry has been riding a motorcycle for decades! Nothing silly about it. It's who he is in real life. He also windsurfs.

"Kerry should have focused how his foreign policy vision is within the Democratic mainstream; he currently acts "I'm right; I don't give a fuck what the Democrats I want to represent think." Many don't care Kerry if Kerry is "right" or "wrong," we just want a feel that he is on *our* side."

Actuyally the Democratic Mainstream gets that John Kerry has the most Foreign Policy experience. The one who is throwing the "I'm right" stuff around is Dean.

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mikewriter Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Kerry or Dean...
Go with Dean. Kerry doesn't have good enough hair to be president.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. If cuts can be made without sacrificing real security, he'll make cuts
But until he actually delves into the defense budget he's not going to be sure he CAN make cuts. Dean won't promise something he can't deliver, period. Just because he doesn't promise something doesn't mean he won't still try to do it.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. but he said you can't have it both ways so which is it ?
and how long will it stay that way ?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. he seems to be promising he'll balance the budget ...
how can he promise he can do that if he doesn't know whether cuts can be made in the defense budget which comprises 50% of the federal budget ... if he won't cut the defense portion of the budget, he should state exactly what he would cut ... of course, he never does that ... it wouldn't help him politically to do so ...

he never answered the question kucinich asked him in tonight's debate ... how can you promise to balance the budget if you won't commit to cutting defense spending ...
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. then the logical choice is to go with Edwards
doesn't have Clark's baggage and similar to Kerry idiologically.

And America just loves electing guys with southern accents !
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Edwards opted *for* public financing.
I want to win this election.
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
25. I was a Dean supporter early on
and came to disagree with many things...from Dean's stand on some issues, his approval rating (which are endorsements) from the NRA, to the way they planned to run the campaign. Because of this I decided to look for the candidates with the most integrity in their records.

Kerry has never accepted PAC donations, he went to VietNam when he could have used connections to get out of it, he stood up to the government after he returned from Nam, even though the FBI was "on his case" and stood up to Nixon by organizing VVAW, his courage, intelligence, breadth of knowledge in world and domestic affairs...that's what I want for my family and my country...a president who knows what he is doing now...who has that experience now...who won't lie and cheat and be subservient to PACs and cronies. It comes down to the fact that I trust John Kerry the most over the other candidates.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
28. Oh, for crying out loud, isn't this about the fifth time...
...you've publicly announced you're angst at not being able to choose between one candidate and another?

Maybe you should just sit out the primaries. Spend your time registering voters, and then once a nominee is chosen (by others better able to make a decision), then you can vote for that person in the fall.
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Boy oh boy
you certainly made it clear you're a Dean supporter.

red hot burning anger....isn't always necessary to get your point across.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Its called the "Dean Charm Offensive"
guaranteed to bring on electoral disaster.

Two drops of "Dean Charm" can poison any attempt to get rid of the Bushes.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
31. Who's your President?
That's the only question. Which one is going to do the things you want a President to do and which one can actually get things done from the first day in office.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. is this the new Dean strategy?
second thread I've seen today about a Dean supporter "anguishing"
over Dean and another candidate...

the other one was about DK and advised people to vote for DK in non critical Dean primaries

I wonder who you are trying to draw support from??

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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. wtf?
I'm getting sick of this place. I'm more than open about how I feel. You can email me about it, or talk to me at other online places I hangout at.

Jason H. Bowden
poskonig@hotmail.com
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. poskonig has been swinging back and forth for over a year now.
posko's feelings are 100% genuine, even when I disagree.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
36. I wish more Dean supporters were like you
Kerry would be in great shape since you are obviously genuinely open to switching.
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. "genuinely open to switching"
The fact that a lot of us are not open to switching is your candidate's fault, not ours.

Please direct your ire at his piss-poor campaign - not us.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kerry supported Bush and IWR. What's to choose?
Kerry sold his soul for a falsely perceived advantage by playing it safe and backing the DumbSon's war.

If you can stomach the fact that thousands of people died with Kerry's approval...then go for it.

Not to mention that he's sure loser against PrezGoober if the Democrats turn against their own and nominate the hypocrite.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Misleading about Kerry's position doesn't make your position stronger
write your candidate and tell him to stop misleading the American public, too.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Are you saying that he didn't vote for the IWR?
Or, are you defending his lame excuses about being "misled" by bush?

Fortunately, Kerry is now getting the amount of support he so richly deserves. Zip, nada, zero, from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

His pathetic attempts to cover his cowardly vote has reduced him to an also ran.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. And pushed lefties into the arms of a CENTRIST?
A centrist who doesn't give two shits about civil liberties?

A centrist who wants to INTENSIFY the war on drugs?

A centrist with a record of pushing deregulation of electricity in his state?

A centrist who for 11 years aligned so often with Republicans and publicly scorned the progressive Democrats?

I'm not going to march MY liberal credentials over that cliff for a LYING centrist like Dean.
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Constitution Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
42. Dean claimed a back problem and then went skiing during Vietnam
When later asked about his back problem, Dr. Dean couldn't even spell the name.

Bush was AWOL from the Alabama National Guard (to which he had been trasfered) for over one year. His commander said Bush never reported for duty. Who could better make this a campaign issue - a draft dodger or a war hero?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. Dean didn't kill Vietnamese. What a loser!
We sure wouldn't want someone in the WH who hasn't murdered someone in the name of "patriotism". He's probably never worn a flight suit either.

Let's nominate someone who thinks killing people to advance his politial career is "practical" politics against an incumbent who thinks that killing people to advance his politial career is "practical" politics.

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jadesfire Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
44. Suggest you talk to some of the Kerry supporters
at the forum on his website. They are well informed and really energetic. A little too rah rah for me to be there for long periods of time....

take some time to look around, there are quite a few people around the country who are doing stuff on their own. I know where I am in Cali there are people in Santa Monica, Hollywood,etc. as well as in the East Bay, Santa Barbara, Chico, etc.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Oh thank you!!
I'm one of those forum supporters. I'm glad to hear nice things about us and that we're coming off as "rah rah". That's the whole point of supporting your candidate!
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
49. If you want to join a campaign join kerry, if you want to join a movement,
vote dean.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
52. easy choice
Dean is the leader, Kerry blew it months ago.
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