Could We Lose This Spin War Over the Mary Cheney comment?

[liberalpragmatist]

Seriously. The blogosphere's all over it, and the comment has made it into the Washington Post. They were talking about it on MSNBC.

To be honest, I don't think they can overturn this judgement, but I wouldn't be too surprised either. We better be a little bit careful.

[Guaranteed]

1. Yeah, if we let them say that being gay is a bad thing. nt

[TwentyFive]

21. JK's reference was positive....he was not attacking her at all.

[Guaranteed]

26. Exactly. He said it himself- God makes people the way they are,

sexually.

In other words, there's nothing wrong with them.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demi_Babe]

3. no way...I don't think so at all.

[highplainsdem]

76. I don't think so either. Tim Russert pointed out on the Today Show

that Kerry was mentioning something that was already well known. I didn't watch the show, but just read about this in a Free Republic thread. The Freepers are NOT happy with Russert at the moment (it didn't help, either, that in a conversation between Russert and Katie Couric, Bush was called "Gore-like" for seeming to be a different person in every debate).

I'd guess that everyone, or almost everyone, who was offended by what Kerry said was planning to vote for Bush anyway.

[Memekiller]

4. Bush's Osama line...

...was the goof of the night.

Mentioning Cheney's daughter is gay is a non-issue. It won't fly, especially once you play the clips of Cheney bringing it up.

[roseBudd]

66. The OBL lie illustrated, print & distribute!

Bush's priorities regarding OBL and the LIE he told in the 3rd debate. Print the flyer at the link below and plaster car windshields and or distribute!


Go to http://somnamblst.tripod.com to download high resolution TIF or PDF file to print.

[Catfight]

79. What was the Osma line, I was distracted during that part. n/t

[ljm2002]

86. Bingo!

Yes, we really do need to get the clips out there of Cheney bringing it up in his stump speeches.

Cheney himself opened the door when he decided to use his daughter's gayness to "soften" his ticket's image. He thought it would be a good political move to do so. But now the B/C gang are furious that the other side has stepped in through that open door and brought up the topic themselves. The best thing is, by doing so, they make it impossible for Bush or Cheney to play more strongly to the rabid right base -- because if they do, then everyone is comparing their position against Cheney's relationship with his daughter.

Political hardball is what it amounts to.

[aquart]

5. Ridiculous.

We all know dear Mary's gay.

It's why Coors hired her to handle gay relations. Or that could have been a payoff.

[MercutioATC]

6. It's always risky to say what another person "would say".

Kerry should have stopped short of doing that.

[sonicx]

19. mary cheney thinks being gay is a choice?

[MercutioATC]

24. I don't think so, but is it wise to speak for her?

[GiovanniC]

82. Why?

If Mary Cheney WOULD say that being gay is not a choice, then John Kerry is right.

If Mary Cheney WOULD NOT say that being gay is not a choice, then she is saying that being gay IS a choice (double negatives cancel each other out). In other words, she would be saying that she choses to be a homosexual. That doesn't play well with the Republican base. Keyes has already said she's a selfish hedonist, as it is.

[PretzelWarrior]

7. by doing what? does it offend good Christians in Kansas?

they weren't gonna vote for Kerry anyway. is it offensive to some dude in Portland, OR or a woman in SF? no. what's offensive about a family member being gay?

this is a nonstarter. why should he apologize? that's why he brought up Bush's family again and complimented him. It diffuses the attack that he was merely going after family in a negative way.

Besides, even if you give them that point....it's Kerry score: 150, Bush score: 3 1/2.

THe Crawls on CNN and MSNBC are reporting Bush's CLEAR misstatement that he had never said he wasn't worried about Osama. BUSTED>

[Radio-Active]

8. Just a distraction for the pundits..

They are focusing on Cheney's "unmentionable" lesbian daughter to avoid the obvious: Bush's "unmentionable" loss.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Kerry can say, "I apologize for protecting Mary Cheney's right to exist

better than her own father would."

[Selwynn]

25. I would kill for him to actually say that!

[Francine Frensky]

55. Oooooh, good one.

[complain jane]

10. Stop. Really.

The Repugs WANT THIS to be a big deal to distract from the debate. They are salivating over this. And it's nothing. So don't allow it to be something; focus, if anything, on the fact that the Repugs are blowing it out of proportion, and focus on the kind words that Kerry had for Mary Cheney because that is what they were; kind words.

Kerry did nothing wrong here. Absolutely nothing. That is why they are in such turmoil.

So I say, let's forget the Repug spin, and if we are going to even mention this at all, or even acknowledge it, prop it up as the kind, thoughtful, respectful words of John Kerry in reference to Mary Cheney, and that's all.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. NewsMax: "Firestorm Erupts Over Kerry's 'Lesbian' Attack"

I'd say you have it about 100% right.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/14/01410.shtml

[sr_pacifica]

46. Kind and respectful---absolutely. They came from the heart. n/t

[liberal_in_GA]

64. exactly

and counter the repug spin with LTTEs about the imbroglio over this comment just shows their own bias.

[Dookus]

11. I doubt it

I suspect the "complaints" will end tomorrow. Keeping this in the news does NOT help Bush.

[pmbryant]

14. Yep

The GOP tries their best to hide this fact from public consumption. It must unsettle their base or something. :shrug:

Peter

[Vincardog]

15. So keep it in the news. The only one it hurts is the Fundies and haters

[carpetbagger]

12. Absolutely not. Osama quotes will rule the day.

The GOP has to find something to swing at. That's the best they can do.

Personally, I also think we're getting enough momentum to get the teflon effect. I was pleasently surprised how well the press explained Kerry/nuisance as in line with Bush/victory and comments from Bush Sr. people.

[sandnsea]

13. Not if we aren't henny pennys over it

And stand up for our guy. Geesh.

[sonicx]

16. please

this is a bullshit issue. if rethugs are ashamed to have gay kids, just admit it and shut up.

[missouri dem]

18. Here in Missouri the gay marrige amendment passed

70% to 30 %. Cheney's gay daughter is going to keep some of Bush's base from voting and will not be an issue that the republicans will want to dwell on. You can bet that the Kerry campaign did lots of focus groups on this and it will turn the wedge issue back on the republicans.
It's about time that democrats learned to turn a wedge issue around.

[TwentyFive]

20. I like what Kerry said about Mary Cheney

I think JK did an excellent job of answering the same-sex marriage/homosexuality as choice question.

Until I've actually walked in other people's shoes, I'm willing to take people's word that homosexuality is not a choice. I think there is a scale where some people are completely gay or straight, and some are somewhere in between.

If I took a test and determined I was 99% heterosexual, it would be very naive for me to assume all people are also 99%.

But the bigger issue is that this is America -- gays pay taxes and contribute to society -- so why should their relationships not be recognized by the state?

I am all for gay marriage. I think our society is better when we don't marginalize millions of people - just so bigots can feel comfy.

[CreekDog]

22. It's our wedge issue...

Our voters don't think it's a big deal if someone is gay.

It is fair play. The people it offends are people who think that homosexuality is something to hide --probably not voters we have much of a chance with. And mentioning it turns those voters off their own candidates.

[baltodemvet]

53. I'm in favor of gay marriage too

but I didn't like his calling out Ms. Cheney by name. It wasn't necessary in order to respond to the question. I think it will cost him a bit on the softer "likeability' scores but not enough to lose the debate or the election.

[jezebel]

23. I don't think it was wrong of Kerry to say, BUT I do think the media will

take their cue from the Republican party and right wingers and will be all over this. They will endlessly play Kerry saying it, and then quote Dick and Lynne Cheney's comments about Kerry being a bad man.
Bush lost the debate so Rove and all will try and make this the FOCUS to the exclusion of Bush's mistakes. And the media will love this story. Sort of how they loved to focus on Gore's "earth tones".

[mellowinman]

27. If someone gave you a million dollars

would you be fucking depressed that you had to pay taxes on it?

What the fuck is wrong with people on our side?

WHO is buying that whole Mary Cheney spin?

Freepers.

Were they going to vote for Kerry?

No.

[jezebel]

28. NYTIMES article. First paragraph. Kerry "looses" 3 votes over comment

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/14/politics/campaign/14voices.html

WEST BRANCH, Iowa, Oct. 13 - Forget his health care plan. Forget abortion and embryonic stem cell research. Forget even how many times he did or did not vote to raise taxes. Senator John Kerry may have lost three critical votes with a simple aside, when he invoked Vice President Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter as part of an answer on same-sex marriage.

"That is very unfair," blurted Patsey Farrell, 64, one of a handful of undecided voters gathered here to watch the final presidential debate Wednesday night. "I'm sorry, that's too personal. That's too hurtful."

Her son-in-law, Kevin Uhde, the 50-year-old elementary school principal who held this pizza party, agreed. "Not by name," he said, shaking his head at Mr. Kerry on the 24-inch Phillips television set a few yards away. "Why single out one person?"

And Mr. Uhde's wife, Karlen, added, "I think it's like a low blow."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Overall that entire article leaned more heavy FOR Kerry

and if you read the positions of those people, they were hardly undecided.

[jezebel]

32. I agree, they seemed Bush voters anyway. My point is it is the first

talking point of the article.
I guess my concern is that while I see nothing wrong with Kerry's comment, I am afraid the media is going to convince people it was wrong and a low blow. They will focus on it and use any "evidence" of it turning people off (like the people in the article) to hammer it.

[Catfight]

81. AGAIN, BUSH called Mary Cheney a sinner during is Hate of the Union

Speech, the NYTimes can go fuck themselves!

[Bombtrack]

29. I can't stop thinking about this shit I'm sorry. I'm anxious as hell about

it. They are going to milk it. I'm just not seeing sufficient replies about this hear to quell my fears about the mileage I dread they're going to get about it.

People here are too dismissive about their ability to milk bullshit. Our country is too stupid ok, everyone forgets that.

[ruggerson]

71. HER OWN DAMN FATHER BROUGHT IT UP TWO WEEKS EARLIER

[Bombtrack]

88. When?

He said something about "my LESBIAN daughter, who's GAY"

[ogradda]

31. everybody knows she's gay

if people are ashamed of her and don't want it talked about, then shame on THEM.

[Barney Rocks]

33. OK--obviously since

both Edwards and Kerry mentioned her by name in their debates, they must have thought about this and polled it and decided that it would HELP them and not hurt them.

So i am thinking that this may hurt the Republicans with the conservative base that they are trying to turn out. In fact--their whole strategy is getting these people to turn out. Fundamentalist bible thumpers DO NOT like voting for people with an openly lesbian daughter.

After thinking this over for a while (I was not sure immediately) I think this could work in our favor BIG TIME. We all know what bigots and narrow minded thugs freeper types are. They will not admit that they are turned off--but they will stay at home--just like some of them did in 2000 when they found out about Bush's DUI.

Actually--we should keep this in the news--and try to get as much mileage out of it as possible.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Here's what Andrew Sullivan had to say about it

SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: I keep getting emails asserting that Kerry's mentioning of Mary Cheney is somehow offensive or gratuitous or a "low blow". Huh? Mary Cheney is out of the closet and a member, with her partner, of the vice-president's family. That's a public fact. No one's privacy is being invaded by mentioning this. When Kerry cites Bush's wife or daughters, no one says it's a "low blow." The double standards are entirely a function of people's lingering prejudice against gay people. And by mentioning it, Kerry showed something important. This issue is not an abstract one. It's a concrete, human and real one. It affects many families, and Bush has decided to use this cynically as a divisive weapon in an election campaign. He deserves to be held to account for this - and how much more effective than showing a real person whose relationship and dignity he has attacked and minimized? Does this makes Bush's base uncomfortable? Well, good. It's about time they were made uncomfortable in their acquiescence to discrimination. Does it make Bush uncomfortable? Even better. His decision to bar gay couples from having any protections for their relationships in the constitution is not just a direct attack on the family member of the vice-president. It's an attack on all families with gay members - and on the family as an institution. That's a central issue in this campaign, a key indictment of Bush's record and more than relevant to any debate. For four years, this president has tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don't exist. Well, we do. Right in front of him.

www.andrewsullivan.com

Bush can't win with just fundies

[Francine Frensky]

57. Sullivan's got the right idea here

Why is it a low blow?

Because her parents are embarrassed of her, and bush supporters are embarrassed of ther....

[RedEarth]

84. Sullivan makes an excellent point...thanks for the post

[ibegurpard]

35. Let the Republicans defend gay people

It kind of puts them in an interesting position, don't you think?

[Swamp Rat]

36. I hope this stays in the news all the way to the election.

Mary Cheney is gay! The vice president's daughter is a lesbian! Mary Cheney is gay! Mary Cheney is gay!

This issue will rot and fester in the minds of fundies. It could be the Achilles Heel of Bush&Co. So, let's take a page out of their book and turn their entire strategy back against them: Divide and conquer.

[dave123williams]

37. That's rich...

The day the GOP starts acting like the defenders of Gay Americans...man, they don't have a leg to stand on.

[depakid]

38. What's to spin?

Kerry owns the GLBT vote- I doubt even the most sensitive in that constituency is going to vote for Bush. Where this really matters is among the bigoted swing voters. The fact that Kerry brought Ms. Cheney does far more to innoculate him against attacks for "promoting the gay agenda" than it hurts him in that group.

[incapsulated]

39. Personally...

I wish he hadn't said it, because Edwards already did and it seemed like a pile-on.

But they won't get much traction out of it, not when her own father uses it in a "town hall" meeting, for chrissakes.

[DELUSIONAL]

40. Only if the democrats form a circle and start shooting each other

The more the right wingers complain the more they point out the fact that Cheney's daughter is gay.

Al Franken handled the issue of Mary Cheney very well at the GOP convention. Franken pointed out (and he sounded so sad -- as a father who's child was insulted or slighted) how Mary Cheney was NOT on stage with her father and mother.

The fact is that from 10 - 15% of the population is homosexual which means that many families have members who are gay (open or in the closet).

The Plaid Adder gave us her opinion -- which is what Kerry said was not evil or wrong.

[humanbeing]

41. this has no legs...

Edwards already mentioned it last time, and it got no big play, that I saw, at least not online. (I dont watch any TV news, disclamer there.)

I'm intruigued by the allusions to DNC polling and strategy that said that mentioning Cheney's daughter was a good issue. I'm not very politically saavy in terms of what the campaigns do for strategy.

[lfs5]

42. Mary Cheney

Am I crazy, or didn't this come up in the vice-presidential
debate, when Edwards talked about the Cheney's love for their
gay daughter?

[demokatgurrl]

43. It did come up in the VP debate. Personally

I wish Edwards and Kerry had stayed away from it. It's well known, and doesn't help them at ALL. What is the point of bringing it up????

[newyawker99]

87. Hi lfs5!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[regnaD kciN]

44. I'm sure KKKarl and his minions will try...

...to make this the Wellstone memorial of 2004.

Look for every wingnut blowhard, from Rush on down (if one can imagine such a thing), to be flogging this heavily tomorrow. We'll have to see how the public responds, but I don't think they'll be able to spin it like Wellstone's funeral -- there really aren't any "over the top" video clips that can be taken out of context and repeated ad infinitum.

[jezebel]

45. CNN just played the clip followed by video of Lynne Cheney saying he is

not a good man, he is not a good man. The Kerry camp has to have some response, it does not look good to let Lynne Cheney have the last word on it and leave the impression that it was so below the belt.

[KennedyGuy]

47. Look...its not Kerrys problem if the cheneys

are ashamed of their gay daughter.

[Guaranteed]

48. That's the bottom line.

Kerry is not offended by homosexuality, they are. It's their fucking problem.

[jezebel]

50. I agree with you I just hate the media and their desire to play this up NT

nt

[baltodemvet]

49. I don't know about spin

but it was a slip. Even though it's true and common knowledge, there was no reason to point out an individual in order to answer the question.

[Guaranteed]

51. There's no reason not to. nt

[bklyncowgirl]

52. Kerry needs to point out how the Cheney's respect for their daughter...

contrasts with the Republican party line and that that is a good thing.

It is also important to point out that for gay people who's families are not wealthy and powerful politicians who have accepted their children's sexual identity, life can be miserable.

The Republicans are going to use this because they have nothing else from the debate to go on.

Kerry has to continue to attack on the Osama comment and on Bush and Cheney's lack of truthfulness.

[sgtyellerdawg]

54. I posted this earlier...

Several times I have heard people make reference to the mentioning of Cheney's lesbian daughter as a "cheap shot" by both Edwards and Kerry and I was rather perplexed since it is common knowledge - and the Cheneys for the most part do not hide her away like they did 4 years ago. I was talking to a friend of mine who has a gay daughter and she said the reason some people consider it a "cheap shot" is because some folks can not relate nor understand how anyone could be "proud" to have a gay child let alone speak openly about it. My friend is very proud of her child and loves her dearly and makes no bones about her child being gay but said that some feel shame and that is why, for some people, it is considered a "cheap shot" to mention Mary Cheney. (I don't buy Andrea Mitchell's comments this morning on Imus that the Kerry campaign is sending a message to the GOP anti-gay base that Cheney is not one of their own because he loves his gay daughter... especially after hearing Kerry's response to the gay question last night.)

[noamnety]

58. We need to force the issue

Make them say why they think it is a cheap shot.

Ask if Kerry insulted her in anyway. Where was the negative comment in what he said?

[Radio-Active]

68. Exactly!

Ask them the question and make sure they answer it...

This is outrage over nothing, folks. Typical GOP bullshit.

[Richardson08]

56. Some right wing conservatives might not vote for */* because of the

lesbian daughter.They will not vote for Kerry but they won't vote for the other guy

Look at what they have done to Kerry.The entire family takes shots at Kerry everyday.That's not fair

[Leilani]

59. IMO, I wasn t comfortable with it.

I didn t like it when Edwards did it during his debate.

And I didn t like Edwards comments about Christopher Reeve & stem cell research.

To me, it doesn t have anything to do with Mary Cheney being gay. But it is about using people & sensitive situations for political gain.

I never felt the same about Al Gore after he made that speech about his sister dying.

For me, it is just a gut feeling. But some things should be above politics.

[Catt03]

61. I would not have said it

not necessary

[arwalden]

60. Absolutely Not. -- Cheney Himself "Used" His Daughter

in a campaign speech as an example of why (and how) he supported equality for everyone (but supported Bush's* policy of discrimination anyway).

This is a non-starter. Not an issue. --- The bloggers and RWers have latched on to this because it's the ONLY thing that they have.

Kerry has played this campaign on the up-and-up from the beginning and has avoided any personal attacks or smears or invasion of privacy into Bush or Cheney's lives, or those of their families.

They feel that they have a new "issue" against Kerry because he mentioned a Cheney "family matter". But it's not a private family matter. It's something that's public record... something that Mary Cheney is open about... something that Dick and Lynne are open about, and that they too have found appropriate to use in their campaigns.

It's such bullshit. Not an issue. Definitely not an issue.

Let it drop.

-- Allen

[WI_DEM]

62. yes, we could lose the spin war if the press concentrates on this

and not on who won the debate. I'm surprised since Edwards brought it up in the VP debate why it didn't become an "issue" then? But it's clear they are going to use this to try to wring sympathy. Maybe the Cheney's have spoke about their daughter publically but I'm not sure it is Kerry or Edwards place to do it. They could make their point without naming names.

[evilqueen]

65. we don't have "places" we're all Americans

[seabeyond]

63. at first i thought kerry should apologize, i was wrong

both husband and i thought that part was a mistake, then listening to griffin was a duh for me. why. where is the offense. the outrage is the republican party hating gays., the republican parrty see it as a bad thing ergo there suggesting there was something wrong with what kerry did is wrong. so now i am on sullivans side and what he shared and many on this board sharedx. if it had been a democrat and a repug did this to their family, the dem would being saying, gay ya so what. not how offensive you would say it out loud. cause the dem doesnt have the issue with gay. it is the repug problem that they feel hate for gay, or dislike or uncomfortable

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Free2BMe]

69. Look WHO IS embarrassed by this????

[Onlooker]

70. It's not a big deal

It's the best they have to answer to the embarrassing OBL error Bush made. Bush's error is more dramatically because apparently there's videotape to prove he lied.

[Free2BMe]

72. this is a non issue because in the issues ..bush loses

[ladybugg33]

73. The media is hurting the Bush ticket more by keeping it in the news.

The more they talk about it the more it stays on people's minds. soon the RW fanatics will be thinking to themselves that Lynn and Dick are really "bad parents. My god, what must have been going on in that family to have a daughter turn out like that? These can't really be Christians to have allowed this to happen. It's the corrouption of money. Dick spent too much time away from home. If he had joined the military and served in Viet Nam, he would have made a better role model for his family. Too much trash on TV. They shouldn't have allowed their children to watch all those trashy shows on TV. It's Clinton's fault. It's Hillary's fault...if she hadn't worn all those pants in the WH." Can't you just imagine them thinking this stuff? So let the media rail on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

74. No. I say guns blazing. Open up both barrels the hypocrisy that is

the Bush/Cheney ticket needs to be exposed over and over. :hi:

[Enraged_Ape]

75. It's so (SNIFF) touching to see the righties' concern for homosexuals

Give me a fucking break. Lefties don't care about what Kerry said, and righties don't give a shit about homosexuals, period. This is a non-starter, though the RW press may appear to have nothing else to talk about. Their candidate was just handed his ass for the third time in two weeks.

[Liberal Gramma]

85. Right on. My analysis exactly.

[DemocracyInaction]

77. Don't see much of it at all today on the networks and cable

Americans really don't sit around and hand wring and cry about things like this. The gay population isn't going to march over and vote Bush. And for the other side to pretend they feel for gay Mary is a total irrelevant joke---they wish she was behind bars and/or dead! The Dems are secretly saying "good, John, bring it up so that people can see what hypocrites these people are. This has zip effect on anything and neither did Edward's comments in his debate.

[Catfight]

78. Bush called Mary Cheney a SINNER during his Hate of the Union

Speech. This is his bed, he hates gay people, explain that to America. Lynn Cheney is still standing on the back of her poor daughter and using her as a political podium! Mary should stand up for gay people or be used by her own mother as a tool to foster more hate.

[MallRat]

80. Mary Cheney was out of the closet. The Bushies have an uphill climb here.

We can't ignore it, but if we address it head-on and make it an issue of either 1) desperate spinning by GOP operatives in the wake of another Bush defeat, or 2) repressed homophobia and shame by Republicans, we can win this argument, too.

-MR

[Evergreen Emerald]

83. Why is it offensive?

Think about it. What if the question had been about a handicap and Cheney had a child with one leg. Would the repos be up in arms about a comment regarding Cheney's one-legged son?

Bigotry is the reason is it an issue. "gasp...shock...shhh...he said the L word...how dare he...how vicious...get it back in the closet...she who should not be mentioned..." Why is it vicious?

To Kerry, who is not a bigot, it was a normal natural thing to say--an let's face it--it highlights the hypocrisy of the current administration.