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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:21 PM
Original message
Question about Bush and the Methodist Church
If Bush is a Methodist, then why is he such a holy roller?

My grandma is a lifelong Methodist, and I used to attend church with her as a kid.

Methodists in general are a pretty sedate bunch, and the Methodist church is fairly open minded in terms of its policies and theology.

To me, Bush seems more like a misplaced Southern Baptist or Pentecostal.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree
with your assessment and I was born and raised a Methodist
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. well from my baptist church fundies,
methodists are lazy christians. sinners along with the catholics but not as evil
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. baptists are judgmentalist pharasees and not even Christian.
Christ's ONLY commandment was to practice AGAPE LOVE.

baptists don't have any idea what agape love is.
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PresidentErnestTBass Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Well, I'm a Baptist
Most of us are NOT like this, whether you believe it or not. But I hope you will :) Baptists in the most traditional sense are much like the Amish: you have to CHOOSE to follow Christ, that it can't be force down your throat. Plenty of us aren't going to be pulling the lever for Bush, be assured of that. We aren't seeing the fruit of love in his heart. And we're tired of how Robertson, Falwell and others have prostituted the church like they do.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. i am glad to hear this, i just don't get the same sampling
my children go to a baptist school. i use to enjoy this school so, but about last Christmas there was a switch in their stance. separate and started separating themselves from everyone really hard and fast. if you didn't exactly fit their beliefs then the finger point of unchristian. didn't support bush, then unpatriotic, unAmerican not supporting the troops.

i am sorry for your religion right now. at the moment it has walked away from god and is now walking life in mans ego.

i hope you will be able to take back your religion, but right now it isn't looking good. i have gone from a person that embraced all religion, all churches in the love they gave to others, now i see a church and i am turned off. i don't embrace and feel a joy in religion anymore. i am disgusted.

told a fundie friend, with the definition of Christian the baptists have created, i don't want the title, i will walk away from the title and keep my own relationship with Christ, without the dirtiness we are now putting on the word Christian. crisis of religion, not a crisis in faith. faith will always be, man/religion cannot contaminate
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. Not Southern Baptist, though, I'll bet.
I should have been more precise denominationally.
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Bush was AWOL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree
I'm Methodist myself, as is the rest of my family, and we are nothing like the Bush.

I call bull on Bush even being that religious. I think he's a phony.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. A friend sent me an e mail
about a censure from the Methodist Church. It was scathing. I don't have the link but will try to get it. They touched on everything especially the war in Iraq and the death penalty.
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Most 'mainstream' Christian churches were strongly opposed to the
war in Iraq; unfortunately, the only clergy who really get any attention in this country are the ones who are seriously theologically challenged, like Robertson and Foulwell.
Here's a statement I received just today from Sojourner's (a publication that Robertson calls semi-socialist)

Because of a deep and growing concern about an emerging "theology of war" in the White House, the increasingly frequent language of "righteous empire," and official claims of "divine appointment" for a nation and president in the "war" on terrorism, I have joined with several theologians and ethicists in writing the following statement. A climate in which violence is too easily accepted, and the roles of God, church, and nation too easily confused calls for a new "confession" of Christ. The statement names five key points of Jesus' teachings, while rejecting false teachings that nullify his message. It has been signed by more than 200 theologians and ethicists - many of them from theologically conservative seminaries and Christian colleges. We share it with you and ask that you send it to friends and present it to your churches if you resonate with its concerns and convictions.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Confessing Christ in a World of Violence


Our world is wracked with violence and war. But Jesus said: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God" (Matt. 5:9). Innocent people, at home and abroad, are increasingly threatened by terrorist attacks. But Jesus said: "Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you" (Matt. 5:44). These words, which have never been easy, seem all the more difficult today.


Nevertheless, a time comes when silence is betrayal. How many churches have heard sermons on these texts since the terrorist atrocities of September 11? Where is the serious debate about what it means to confess Christ in a world of violence? Does Christian "realism" mean resigning ourselves to an endless future of "pre-emptive wars"? Does it mean turning a blind eye to torture and massive civilian casualties? Does it mean acting out of fear and resentment rather than intelligence and restraint?


Faithfully confessing Christ is the church's task, and never more so than when its confession is co-opted by militarism and nationalism.


- A "theology of war," emanating from the highest circles of American government, is seeping into our churches as well.


- The language of "righteous empire" is employed with growing frequency.


- The roles of God, church, and nation are confused by talk of an American "mission" and "divine appointment" to "rid the world of evil."


The security issues before our nation allow no easy solutions. No one has a monopoly on the truth. But a policy that rejects the wisdom of international consultation should not be baptized by religiosity. The danger today is political idolatry exacerbated by the politics of fear.


In this time of crisis, we need a new confession of Christ.


1. Jesus Christ, as attested in Holy Scripture, knows no national boundaries. Those who confess his name are found throughout the earth. Our allegiance to Christ takes priority over national identity. Whenever Christianity compromises with empire, the gospel of Christ is discredited.


We reject the false teaching that any nation-state can ever be described with the words, "the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." These words, used in scripture, apply only to Christ. No political or religious leader has the right to twist them in the service of war.


2. Christ commits Christians to a strong presumption against war. The wanton destructiveness of modern warfare strengthens this obligation. Standing in the shadow of the Cross, Christians have a responsibility to count the cost, speak out for the victims, and explore every alternative before a nation goes to war. We are committed to international cooperation rather than unilateral policies.


We reject the false teaching that a war on terrorism takes precedence over ethical and legal norms. Some things ought never be done - torture, the deliberate bombing of civilians, the use of indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction - regardless of the consequences.


3. Christ commands us to see not only the splinter in our adversary's eye, but also the beam in our own. The distinction between good and evil does not run between one nation and another, or one group and another. It runs straight through every human heart.


We reject the false teaching that America is a "Christian nation," representing only virtue, while its adversaries are nothing but vicious. We reject the belief that America has nothing to repent of, even as we reject that it represents most of the world's evil. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).



4. Christ shows us that enemy-love is the heart of the gospel. While we were yet enemies, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8, 10). We are to show love to our enemies even as we believe God in Christ has shown love to us and the whole world. Enemy-love does not mean capitulating to hostile agendas or domination. It does mean refusing to demonize any human being created in God's image.


We reject the false teaching that any human being can be defined as outside the law's protection. We reject the demonization of perceived enemies, which only paves the way to abuse; and we reject the mistreatment of prisoners, regardless of supposed benefits to their captors.


5. Christ teaches us that humility is the virtue befitting forgiven sinners. It tempers all political disagreements, and it allows that our own political perceptions, in a complex world, may be wrong.


We reject the false teaching that those who are not for the United States politically are against it or that those who fundamentally question American policies must be with the "evil-doers." Such crude distinctions, especially when used by Christians, are expressions of the Manichaean heresy, in which the world is divided into forces of absolute good and absolute evil.


The Lord Jesus Christ is either authoritative for Christians, or he is not. His Lordship cannot be set aside by any earthly power. His words may not be distorted for propagandistic purposes. No nation-state may usurp the place of God.


We believe that acknowledging these truths is indispensable for followers of Christ. We urge them to remember these principles in making their decisions as citizens. Peacemaking is central to our vocation in a troubled world where Christ is Lord.

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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. very similar to the 1934 pproclamation of the German Confessing Church
Some leaders were Karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

One of the first statements was something like "The Christian's first allegiance is to God through his Son Jesus Christ, NOT to a country or a political leader."
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Exactly! If Jesus is Lord, NO earthly leader is deserving of unquestioned
loyalty.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Bush HAS been charged by the UMC!!!!
see the link below:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1124422

This is serious, since these charges are being filed by his local pastor (the church in TX where he holds membership); his district superintendent; AND his bishop.

If you want to see and sign the petition (United Methodists only, please), go to:

http://www.petitiononline.com/tmrloc03/petition.html

The Rev.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. I was raised a Methodist in a different part of the country.
My take on it was the same as yours. Pretty sedate. Lots of volley ball games and covered dish suppers. Very little "holy rolling." But I mentioned that to a United Methodist person here in Texas, and she went ballistic on me...what did I mean by that, she asked. What do you mean the Methodists don't take the Bible literally, she asked (they didn't when I went to Church...we weren't taught, for instance, that the sea really did turn into wine, although we weren't taught that it didn't, either).

Maybe the Methodist Church has changed, or maybe United Methodist is different from the Methodist religion of my youth. I think I've seen United Methodist churches, and then just Methodist churches, as if they are two different things. I wonder if there was a split?

But I agree with you. Bush seems more evangelical to me, of the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson ilk than normal church folk. I wouldn't be surprised if Bush believes in speaking in tongues and such, which to me used to be found mainly in those traveling tent religions but now can be found in the evangelical churches. TV has made such a difference.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. "Here in Texas"...
...is probably your key phrase. Churches often take on the character of the culture in which they exist. In my wine-rich state of California, many of the fundegelicals drink. But that would be utterly unheard of in many areas.

Reminds me of a joke:

Q. What's the difference between an Episcopalian and a Baptist?
A. An Episcopalian will say hello to you in the liquor store.
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avatar4321 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Sea to wine?
When did this happen?
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. WATER to wine, okay? Slip up. Enjoying your visit?
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. It became the "United Methodist Church" in 1968
when the Methodist Church united with the Evangelical United Bretheren church, a smaller but almost identical denomination.
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ogsball Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Typically we say we don't take the Bible Literally
we take it seriously.

That being said how do you take "if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off" literally?
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Exactly. We were taught more or less to take it seriously, as the other
poster said, but to use common sense and view it in terms of faith-based reality. I guess. It really wasn't openly discussed that much. You were taught to believe in Jesus and God and faith and loving one another and all those good things. Mercy to animals. A lot of emphasis on BEHAVIOR, as I recall. I don't recall any discussions on our having to really believe some of the things like the people being hundreds of years old and such...could be our preachers just left that to the individual.

But here in Texas it's a pretty literal thing, apparently, where I live being sort of in the Bible Belt, I think, makes it a much more literal thing. I guess.
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. He claims Methodist because Laura used to be one.
We don't want him, we are against all of his politics, we are tired of him using our denomination to hide his satanic excesses behind.

He is at least Southern Baptist, and, you are correct, most probably would fit in better in some loony independant fundigellical mega church that is a cult of personality for their profiteering "preacher".

The reality of it is, busholini is not in the least Christian and cynically uses the cover of religiosity to muddy the waters of the reality of his megalomania.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Also, it's important to remember he's not much of a churchgoer...
...so his actual denominational affiliation might be moot.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. DenverDem, That is a really good call
I think you come closer than any of the others in here. Although I do like the part about taking the Bible seriously not literally. The church I attend leans too much toward the literal.
They call them selves Christain but they spread a lot of hate about Democrats and Catholics and it is starting to get to me. If it wasn't for family peace, I would not go with my wife.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. I am an ethnic Methodist from Kansas. They are very low
key. Billy Graham played a role in his drying up and his ex-drunk friends are fundamentalists.

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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The evangelist James Robison...
...states (as quoted in Kitty Kelley's book) that he led Bush to Christ. It's true that Billy Graham is an old Bush family friend, but his involvement in W's conversion seems indirect

Here's a good article about Bush's religiosity and James Robison:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/cohen_24_4.htm
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Frightening article, but thanks. eom
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vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Another guy said he led him to Christ also...Looks like no one made
the introduction. The monkey even lied about his salvation !
God will deal with him for that reason alone !
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. Please visit the UMC site below and read "Our Social Principles"
Edited on Wed Oct-20-04 06:44 PM by jody
from the "Book of Discipline". You will find that George W. Bush does not practice the doctrine of the United Methodist Church.

Our Social Principles
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HuskerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. Methodist is the largest Protestant denomination
It's not about what he believes, it's about how many votes he wants.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I think So Bapt is the largest protestant denomination in US
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ogsball Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. So Baptists don't claim to be a denomination
They are members of a voluntary convention. Semantic I suppose.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. When I was a member of the Assemblies of God as a kid..
...most of the people there were offended if you called them religious. To them, "religion" was empty denominationalism and they were just Christians empowered by the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by speaking in tongues.

This "we're not religious, we just love Jesus" conceit is pretty standard among fundagelicals. They have a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ, unmediated by any church. But -- damn! -- they have as many committees and commissions as any other church.

It's just a name game.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. Methodists are pretty liberal. I've never heard one say the were "Born
Again." The United Methodist Church was against the Iraq war. I really don't think Bush knows what a Methodist is.
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GoldenOldie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Born Again Christian---Cowboy---AF Fighter Pilot?
This guy changes costumes like most people change underwear. Good for the Rovian photo-ops and the suckers buy into it.
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Methodism in the south is a fundamentalist movement.
The only differences between the UMC in the south and the SBC is that the UMC is multi-ethnic, baptizes babies, is run by bishops and conferences, and has some liberal denominations in larger cities that stick out like sore thumbs.

The only reason there has not been a larger schism is because the southern methodists feel time is on their side. Frankly, it is, since the UMC is rapidly becomming an international organization. Most United Methodists outside North America are evangelical fundamentalists.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. Another interesting Bush/Methodist Thread
This thread talks about a group of Methodists who are asking the UMC to discipline Bush and Cheney (another apparent Methodists).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1124422&mesg_id=1124422&page=
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