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Why is it so hard for Kerry to win?

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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:23 PM
Original message
Why is it so hard for Kerry to win?
Kerry is a very good candidate running a very good campaign, so why isn't he ahead in the polls? The stock market is tanking, the war in Iraq is going terribly, unemployment is very high, the world hates us, prominent conservatives (like Bob Barr) are opposing Bush, prominent Republicans (like former Michigan governor Milliken and John Eisenhower) have endorsed Kerry, prominent Independents (like Jesse Ventura) have endorsed Kerry, yet ... many polls show Bush is still ahead, and even Zogby is wondering if undecideds are breaking for Bush. I just don't understand it. Do the hateful, vengeful, and selfish politics of Bush really reflect the attitudes of the American electorate? Or are the pollsters that far off?
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:25 PM
Original message
OH my god........
I think you are onto something there.........let me get my pen and write it down.......
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. OH my god........
Edited on Sat Oct-23-04 08:26 PM by anti-bush on wheels
just giving you a hard time...the polls are wrong, don't trust them.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. OH my godless..
who even cares about polls a week before the election?
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wish I could answer your question.
I pray that Americans are better than that, but I am afraid they are not.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. the polls are either covering their *sses in case Bush steals the votes
or they are under the regimes of corporate lackeys who are Bush pissers.
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Maccagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. The answer to your first question is ...yes
The answer to your last question is..I'm clueless. The polls make no sense, unless we wake up on November 3rd to a complete mess, and they were right all along.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. just make sure you get out and vote!
Edited on Sat Oct-23-04 08:30 PM by NVwriter
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. because
the country is basically evenly split down the middle on the big issues. Its a 50-50 electorate.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. Shall we meet here next wednesday?
The country is very angry and it will show up on 11/2...mark my words
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Champ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ignorance
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nobody's getting more than 53% of the vote - 50/50 nation
We're a 50-50 nation - it's true. As Zogby said, each side gets 47% just for showing up. There are intense passions on both sides, much of it geographically concentrated. It's as much a cultural thing as the issues - many in the South and in rural areas simply don't trust Kerry.

Also, do not underestimate residual support from 9/11. I actually don't think undecideds will break 2/3 for Kerry - my guess is it'll be somewhat lower at 3/5 or even 55%. The reason is that many people have problems leaving Bush because they feel he was a great leader in the days and weeks following 9/11. They also empathize with him, and they're ambivalent about wanting to let him go. Their heads say Kerry but their hearts say Bush.

We have to understand people's mentality here. The country is polarized, like we haven't been in decades. It's very hard for either side to have a clear and sustained lead.

Just hang on and don't get too worried. In 12 days, we'll be referring to President-elect Kerry!
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. 47% for showing up... Did George show up?
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your media (especially TV) is doing it's best to put Bush in a good light
Edited on Sat Oct-23-04 08:34 PM by glarius
no matter what he does or says....Most of the American public get their impressions of these two men from television and this impression of Bush as the strong, likeable leader is being reinforced daily to the public....That is why he stays high in the polls...IMO.
P.S.....They are still saying Kerry is cold, stiff, unlikeable, "patrician", even though they show him mingling with the crowds in a warm, and friendly manner....
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. You got it! The media let's him lie and spin, and props him up as a solid
down to earth, strong leader. :eyes:

Americans are buying it.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. But what confuses me is that, if one watched the debates,...
Bush came off like a guy on psychotropic medications (not well-managed regimen - of that variety). Why anyone would think that a spoiled boy-prince (from a family who literally bought him the governorship of Texas, and then the presidency) is strong - he's never had to solve a problem by himself, with resources he secured by himself. Kerry is serious and intellectual - why is it necessary we have a stupid 'fun' guy as president. The presidency amounts to a serious job - the most serious in the world. I don't get it.

I simply do not get why people think that George Bush will protect them from anything (or the puppeteers who control the strings).

Perplexing.
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I agree wholeheartedly and besides that
I cannot find anything warm and likeable about Bush! To me he comes across as trying way too hard to be ingratiating, but his meanness shows in his face.....:shrug:
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thats true,,,,Kerry is having a tough time closing the deal...
Bush is by all accounts a pretty bad president, yet Kerry just cant seem to top Bush in the polls...which are showing pretty much a tie right now.

So you have to wonder whats up w. Bush..why people like him or go for him.

Kerry is running a damn good campaign to be this close against an incumbent President, but for some reason Bush has some real solid support out there.

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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I wonder
if Republicans were saying the same thing about Reagan in 1980.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. No. I knew months in advance that Reagan would win in 80.
I forget who wrote it but there was a columnist in 80 that listed the hard core Republican states. He noted that Carter had won by a squeaker, with the support of the Old Confederate states. But that those same states were now angry with him and would go Reagan. I was living in Louisanna at the time and knew that part to be true. The states that were unreachable to Carter counted well more than 270. Before the conventions I knew that Carter was doomed. He lost 489-49.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's always hard to beat an incumbent president
If Kerry is within 2 or 3 points of Bush on election day, I believe he will win.
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'll take a shot
because the Republican party figured out where to get the votes from those born and raised in fear; about themselves; those who fear God and believe what they are told; those who have very strong prejudices (the southern strategy); those who are rural and detached from everyday society. And...uneducated.

When the Kerry campaign says the Bush campaign is about fear, they're right. All the above is about fear; that homosexuals will take over society; that women will be allowed to have the rights to their own body; that "others" will get them if there is not strong protection and rules; and that God is on their side since this is what they have been told.

They found a perfect candidate in Bush; he comes across as not too smart; he is one of "them"in how they think; speech, content, aggression (fear); religion. He even bought a house to to play the part in Crawford.

And then the plan was to incite them. Done

Anyway, that's what I see.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Well said.
Even in the debates, he tried to poison his followers against the "liberal media" -- remember that line about not being able to trust major news organizations, followed up with a "nevermind"? He's a cult leader, and it's always hard to deprogram someone who's been in a cult.
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johnnyrocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
57. Cult leader! That's certainly it...irrational following...
doubtless trust....and the 'rest' of the world is against YOU. If only the reality-based community can break the logjam of hypnotized people before Nov. 2nd.
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. BECAUSE IT'S HARDER TO TELL THE TRUTH than to lie
We in the end must share the blame,letting our fellow citizens either live in a dream world or letting them act out modern fascism under the guise of patriotism.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Don't...don't...don't believe the hype..don't believe the hype
It's going to be a blowout. Bush will still try to steal it anyway.
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. If he got exactly1/2 of the news coverage that Bush gets, he would be so
far ahead that there would not even be a race. That he is doing s well as he is - with practically no news coverage - is pheonominal. It shows how much the country hates Bush.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. testosterone vs Estrogen
one says: kill kill kill

the other says: take care of the kids

your choice.

America is presently in kill mode, but needs to be reminded that being in endless kill mode destroys countries and causes your women & children to starve & die.

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wrate Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. I cannot get out of my head that people who have been polled have lied
and said Bush out of fear. With all the talk about the Patriot Act and how the government can find out what you are reading at the library and all the terrorist stuff. I have to believe that people are afraid to disclose their disdain for the current administration. Wishful thinking?
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Ask me on November 3
Of course, your question will be silly on that day.
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tomfodw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. Turn it around - why is it so hard for Bush?
He's the incumbent President. Shouldn't he be way ahead?

Granted, it was during his time in office that we suffered the worst terrorist attack on US soil in our history. And he interrupted the successful war in Afghanistan to launch an unsuccessful war in Iraq - which he lied about his reasons for starting. And he presided over some of the worst job losses in history. And oil prices have gone through the roof. And he's an idiot. And his vice presidential candidate makes Dracula look like Mr. Rogers.

Um...what was I saying?

But seriously, no one ever yells at Bush for it being so close - and he is the incumbent. Once again, President Excuse Boy gets a skate.
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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
48. I hope Kerry wins because being beaten by an idiot is well....extremely
idiotic and very embarassing to say the least. I have a
feeling governor Ann Richards does not think Bush is an
idiot.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Have you made converts?
Have YOU convinced a boatload of fundies and freepers to believe Bush is not God and not a liar? That's why Kerry is finding it hard to win. The media lies, the Bushies lie, their supporters lie, the pollsters lie. We live in an upside down world and have since Reagan. It's hard to undo 25 years of steaming piles of elephant shit.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. Many support their president* because we're at war
They think its their to duty to remain outwardly loyal. They think their proper role is to only express their dissatisfaction at the polls. They will do so in droves and thereby add an extra 5% to Kerry's margin of victory.

He will win easily, imho.

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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hey, this was my one thousandth post!!!
Thank you. Thank you.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Congrats, Onlooker!
Just made it there this week myself!
:toast:
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. Good job, Onlooker!
Keep:kick:
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
29. The polls are wrong.
No matter how you add up the numbers, there are more democrats than republicans, and this time almost everyone is coming out to vote. In 2000 there were lots of people who thought it didn't make a difference who was President. They've sure learned different.

The polls, like Gallup, have different formulas for computing what their raw numbers mean but a)they often figure a smaller percentage of dems will vote, b) they query "likely" voters, which often means people who have voted before and therefore discount new voters, of which there are a boatload this year and, finally, 3)they have no way of polling the millions of voters who use only cell phones and have no "land lines" to call them on.

Why anyone bothers looking at the polls we see on tv is a mystery to me. Even the more detailed and more accurate "internal" polls are likely to be off this year.

Easy solution? Look around you. How many people do you see who want to vote for George Bush? Okay, subtract that number from everyone you know is going to vote and you get a better picture.

This election is all over but the counting AS LONG AS we work our butts off to get Kerry supporters to the polls. That's all it will take.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Ideally, it would be easier to defeat the worst president ever.
I think the notion of Bush as a man-of-faith is what helps him.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I think Clark would be way ahead in the polls if he had been our candidate
N/T
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. How many primaries did he win?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Some of your facts aren't facts.
If you seek real answers to your questions, first you must be brutally objective about the facts, and about your candidates strengths and weaknesses.

The stock market isn't tanking. After 9-11 the DJIA dropped big time to about 8,000 recovered and dropped again to about 7,200 in 10/02, recovered a bit and dropped again to about 7,300, then recovered during 2003 and since January has been fluctuating between 10,700 and 9,700. Since January there have been four cycles, each of about the same size and duration. We are currently in the 4th dip and the charts suggest that the market should recover soon. Furthermore, a dip just before a close presidential election is fairly common as many investors tend to convert to cash until after the election. Sorry if this goes against what the candidates are saying, but you can look up the DJIA charts if you want to. I can't provide a link as I used my brokerage account to get the chart.

Also, despite the howling about the job situation, the truth is that unemployment is 5.4% During the Clinton administration, in 1996 when he was running for his 2nd term the unemployment level was 5.2%. Very close to the same. 4% is considered full employment by most economists.

Yes, the world hates us. But lots of people don't care about that, and for many others it isn't anything new. During the Vietnam War there were mass demonstrations all over the world. I saw some of them in Europe. And there were demonstration against us in Europe during the Reagan years. Many people that can remember them have become desensitized to it. Others would rather we be feared than loved.

Since 1968, American haven't trusted Democrats to defend the nation or it's interests. Sorry, but that is a fact. From then until the end of the Cold War, only one Democrat, Carter was elected. And after one term he was soundly defeated by Reagan. If Americans are afraid for the nation, they tend to turn to Republicans. And 9-11 did happen, and folks are afraid it may happen again. Democrats tend to be stronger on social issues. Someone once said that the Republicans are the "Daddy" party, and the Democrats are the "Mommy" party. If you want cakes & cookies, go to Mommy. If someone is threatening the house, go to Daddy. (Note: I DO NOT SAY THAT I AGREE WITH THAT. I DO SAY THAT IS A VERY COMMON PERCEPTION.) OK, don't flame me over it.

The conservatives that you mentioned are very minor among conservatives. Most have never heard of them. Bush has the endorsement of the ALL big names among the conservatives.

Kerry is getting hurt because the ultra-liberal albatross has been hung around his neck and he can't shake it. That same bird killed Dukakis. The NRA is pouring $4 million into an ad campaign for Bush. Kerry's goose hunting trip seems to be backfiring. (That is what usually happens with late campaign photo-ops.)The Swifties are still hitting him. Many conservative Christians sat out 2000, but are energized by the gay marriage issue, and the fundamentalist churches have organized to get out their vote. (17,000 churches in Ohio alone are involved with over 2.5 million members.)

Don't accuse me of parroting RW talking points. I haven't. You can look up the facts for yourself if you don't believe me.

Kerry in a real tough fight. Did anybody think this would be easy?
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Must be depressing to be you
I mean, seriously. Dukakis? The Swift Boat Stalkers? Come on.

And your quotes on several things, like unemployment, ARE just blindly quoting right-wing talking points. The unemployment rate only counts people that are currently DRAWING unemployment. I happen to know personally of several people who are having problems getting compensation and have been jumping through hoops for months - not to mention people who's benefits have run out yet they're still unemployed. Those people aren't counted... they're simply just forgotten about.

Your view on international support is very narrow as well. Let me use one of the right-wing talking points myself here - that's September 10th mentality. If we are to have any success whatsoever in actually fighting terrorism we HAVE to have international support. Even Bush said that right after 9/11. Besides, isn't the best way to prevent terrorism is to not recklessly inflame the world?

And, most have never heard of the Republicans endorsing Bush? The Eisenhower name has weight. And believe me, Miliken is very respected and a high-profile name in Michigan and could very well influence voters.

I like Clark too, he would have been a fine candidate. HE, however, is out there stumping hard for Kerry right now.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I'm comfortable being me.
Miliken? Not a national name. Regional only. Eisenhower may be Ike's son, but he doesn't carry any weight nationally. The average person hasn't heard of him.

On much of what I said, I was explaining the average person's response. Not my own. I tried to make that clear. It is possible to understand how someone else thinks without agreeing to their thought process. Unfortunately, around here if you try to explain what is happening, even if you don't advocate it, you are usually accused of advocating it. I didn't say that was my view on international support. I was explaining that it was a common view.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Fair enough, but I don't think you're giving people enough credit
I think that a lot of people care about our place in the international community. Of course the freepers don't, but they're neocon fringe. But I think you also have to consider your average totally apathetic and uninformed American that doesn't care probably doesn't care enough to vote either.

Single-issue voters are a concern, but that's what happens when you have two different ideologies battling each other and it's inevitable. These wedge issues, like gay marriage, hurt us with fundies... but they are already solid for Bush. They might hurt us some with Blacks, but I have faith that it won't be a crippling issue. Have we seen any polls about black christians since the Mary Cheney fallout? That might have counteracted some of that, but I dunno.

Speaking of polls, I really do feel like a lot of people here in that they're not giving an accurate picture when you add in record-breaking new registrations and cell phone users. Not to mention how they oversample Republicans. When you balance just the sample out, like Truth For All did, Kerry pulls comfortably ahead. My point? We're doing better than it appears. All around me I see the signs that the momentum and energy is on our side. Bush has cracks in his base, as was evident by his surprising pandering during the debates. Pandering to your base so close to an election and to a national audience tells me one thing - Bush camp internals were showing some trouble. I hear stories about Republicans and conservatives jumping ship all the time. I see among some self-described Bush supporters a general lack of enthusiasm. The fringe groups are fired up for sure, but it's not really reflecting too much out to the average uninvolved Republican. Meanwhile, the Democrats are fired up like never before across the board.

Sorry for the "depressing" comment. I'm definitely not in the "no criticism allowed!" camp, but admittedly the defeatist attitude makes me sad. I know we have a tough fight. But I firmly believe we have great energy and optimism on our side. And it's contagious... some people just want to vote for a winner. I'm no longer just bound and determined to get rid of Bush, I've become inspired by Kerry. I never thought that would happen, but it did. The more I get to know him the more I like him, and I bet I'm not the only one that feels that way. Kerry's likability went way up after the debates and surpassed Bush. We ARE going to win this.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
54. learn to use the IGNORE button
takes care of a lot of ^&%$(*s
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Your post is a good one
But, in fact, the stock market has done poorly and many people lost a lot of their retirement money over the last few years. Typically, what happened is that they lost lots of money, and then moved it into more secure investments, such as CD's. Then, when they moved it back into the market, the market continued to struggle. Many people 40+ have been severely hurt by this President's lack of economic policy.

As I'm sure you know, the employment situation is a lot worse than the numbers reflect. Many people have given up job hunting or taken low paying or part-time jobs. I think there's a general sense that money is tight. People are not in terrible shape, but they are hurting.

Otherwise, I agree with your points, but I still can't understand how anyone can vote for an idiot like Bush!
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
50. Economics
In the last couple of years, there have been several quiet "revisions" in the labor figures that are put out by the Labor Department, including doing such things as classifying service sector jobs as manufacturing, significantly tightening the number of people considered unemployed, and so forth. By Clintonesque measures, the true unemployment figures are probably closer to 8% than 5%, and even those were inflated by bookkeeping tricks. Similarly, this labor department has basically expanded its definitions of employed to include self-employed people, even when that self-employment is MUCH lower paying than an equivalent corporate-paid job. It's why I was astonished when the latest numbers came out <100,000 -- even by the much more relaxed standards of this administration, job growth is declining, and I suspect many of THOSE jobs are phantom ones.

The DJIA has also been considerably goosed by relaxed accounting standards, even after Oxley-Sorbanes. Yes, the economy has improved somewhat since what I see as the bottom of the real recession in 2003, but if the layoffs and tech industry figures are any indication, its far from even being at 1995 levels. Another factor comes from the drop in the dollar - which has as an indirect consequence the effect of pushing the stock market up. Oil is up more than 60% from this time last year, and it usually takes from three to six months for this to factor into the economy. Right now, we're feeling the effects on the stock market of the FIRST leg of that rise, to $40, from last March; the steeper second leg is going to be far worse, especially since several different factors that are conspiring to push oil higher are all hitting at once.

Volumes on the NYSE floor are very low right now ... you are correct in saying that the election is making for a lot of uncertainty, and that's why I'm largely discounting any motion in the stock equities - it's largely Brownian. However, I think that if we have post-election chaos (something I see as having a roughly 65% chance at this point) you are going to see a significant move out of the markets and out of other equities, including financing for houses, which is already in an oversold bubble, predominantly by foreign investors that own currently 38% or thereabouts of all US financial assets. That's already happening if the dollar/Euro and dollar/Yen figures are accurate. No, the economy is in the sniffles stage, and 2005 is going to be baaaad, no matter who wins.

I think your analysis is a little pessimistic as far as Kerry goes. Yeah, the Republicans play dirty. We knew that going on, whe knew they'd be pulling this kind of crap, and for all that the media is VERY heavily tilted at the top, you get a feeling that even at the level of some of the less stuffed stuffed-shirts that there's a real dissatisfaction with the crap that they're being forced to mouth.

-- Kurt Cagle





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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
51. 1996 unemployment rate was 5.2%
but what was the unemployment rate when Clinton took office? Wasn't it over 7%...Clinton got it down to 5%....Bush on the otherhand went the opposite way!

Please be objective with your facts....thank you in advance. :-)
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. Bush is a cult leader and fills his subjects heads with lies.
It's hard to deprogram them.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
38. The Cult of Bush
Read this article in the LA times and see if it doesn't sound like the kind of brainwashing usually attributed to cults (both the techniques used and the behavior/fervor of the cult members).

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-bushcolor23oct23,1,2029684.story

Two Visions, Two Styles in One Race to the Finish

(Note, this headline doesn't really fit the content. It's not about "two visions or styles, it's just about bu**sh**'s "vision" and "style")

Passion and predictability are hallmarks of a campaign aimed to turn fans into foot soldiers.

CHANHASSEN, Minn. — "Door knockers, this way!" a young woman yelled, directing some of the 17,500 people who were streaming into a local park on a faultless autumn Saturday. President Bush was due to arrive in three hours, and the "door knockers," folks who had volunteered to canvass neighborhoods in the afterglow of his visit, were eager to claim the prize for their work: VIP seats in their own special bleachers, next to the stage.

<snip>

At Bush events, the people who work the hardest for him are likely not only to get the best seats, but get a chance at headier rewards.

<snip>

Republican operatives often say they have learned a lot from Democrats about local organizing. But they have done the Democrats one better: Now, wherever Bush makes an appearance, his campaign staff leverages the excitement of his visit to increase the ranks of volunteers.

<snip>

When it was all over and Bush had been whisked away in his limousine, Ashley Johnsen went off to fulfill her commitment as a door knocker. Not everyone she called on was happy to see her. But that was OK. Being among fellow conservatives, all screaming their hearts out for the president, had inspired her.

"It was exciting to be surrounded by people that, like, all believe the same thing as you," she said. "And it's fun to hear everyone cheer him on, because you hear a lot of negative comments about him…. It made me want to get out there and get people to vote for him."
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. The media. A Democrat with Bush's record would be down 10.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. AND IMPEACHED.....
for lying this country into a war in Iraq, covering up the outing of a CIA agent, the medicare fraud, using Aghanistan funds for Iraq with congressional approval as the US Constitution requires, etc...
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johnnyrocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. And democrats would be voted out of office all over...
they'd never secure a majority again for decades.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. already be in jail - you're right
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PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
42. Because a lot of Americans are selfish, greedy, ignorant, and stupid
a$$holes. That's why!
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
44. Maybe because Kerry reminds more people of the butler on the
Edited on Sat Oct-23-04 11:28 PM by Larkspur
1960's Adams Family comedy show
http://www.addamsfamily.com/ than he does a Prez candidate.

I find Kerry unpalatable and am only voting for him because Bush is a disaster. I also strongly oppose Kerry's Middle East policy which will be just as pro-Israeli as Bush's.
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the_outsider Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Kerry does not look presidential and * does?
That has to be a very very minority opinion. Kerry has been very vocal about alternate energy plans. That's the first step in changing US middle east policies and reducing support to Israel which are as old as oil's importance to industrial world is.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Are you voting for Kerry?
Edited on Sun Oct-24-04 12:05 AM by Moonbeam_Starlight
Yes? Then drop the bitterness for now. I've been reading these same comments of yours in more than one place on this board today. Once he's been inaugurated feel free to pick your bitterness back up again.

I was a Deaniac, too.


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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #49
70. No I won't drop my cynicism of Kerry
He earned it.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. I Think Folks Who Knock Other People's Appearance Should Post Their Own
Picture....


Actually, knocking somebody for how they look is quite puerile because how we look is largely a function of genetics and factors beyond our control...
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #59
71. I'm not running for public office, so my picture isn't important
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #44
61. If I could have such a handsome butler, I would! n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. The Lurch Referance Is Most Unfortunate Coming From A DUer
especially when it's a favorite invective of the other side...
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. I've used it before. I actually like Lurch, but I don't like Kerry
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
53. republicans own the White House, Congress, the media and SCOTUS
Kerry has much more formidable odds than Bush - yet he is still hanging in there. That is a testament to exactly how f***ing bad Bush is - and how good is Kerry.
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
55. I think Kerry is further ahead than the pollsters and media...
are willing to let on. Two months ago, I was getting very apathetic about this daily report of a statistical "dead heat." WTF???

I was tempted to vote for Nader because I was beginning to think that the people in this country were too stupid to have freedom. I wouldn't vote for Bush if someone was holding a gun to my head, but I was considering the "protest vote," out of anger towards the American populaces' ignorance.

Than I had a change of heart. I realized that there was a sophisticated organization in place to win the hearts and minds of the unsophisticated. I stopped getting mad at people for supporting * and just felt sorry for them. It's like getting mad at a puppy for pissing on the kitchen floor--you can't get mad at it; it doesn't KNOW ANY BETTER.

Be very wary of the polls; after all, they are conducted by private businesses. Media is a business. The news isn't viewed as a public service anymore; it's there to generate profit. Polling companies exist to generate profit. By keeping things close, people remain glued to their tv sets, driving up ratings, and profits.

One thing is for sure: I'm voting for Mr. Kerry.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. The Kerry campaign has made major strategic blunders, but we can win!
Edited on Sun Oct-24-04 01:08 AM by Democat
After we win the election I'll be happy to post more about the strategic errors this campaign has made. There have been many of them and some so serious that there is a chance Bush will steal it again.

This was Kerry's to lose and some of his advisors seem to have done everything they could to help him try to lose.

We're close to the election now, and it's not the time to worry about this. We need to fight this one to the end and win, then we can discuss why it was so close.
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
60. I think the hateful, vengeful and selfish politics of Bush
unfortunately reflect the attitudes of a lot of Americans.
And I think the polls are completely unreliable.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
63. It's not just Kerry -- it's hard for ANY Democrat to win
The fact is that somewhere between 45% and 50% of the American electorate considers the Democratic Party to be completely unacceptable to them, either because of its position on God, guns, gays, abortion, etc. All these voters have their reasons, and the Democrats have yet to nominate a candidate capable to transcending the issues that kept a huge group of voters safely in the Republican camp.

Bill Clinton made things look easy. But the fact of the matter is that Clinton never faced a unified Republican party in either of his presidential elections, and he never won a majority of the popular vote.

If Bill Clinton couldn't break 50% against Bob Dole in 1996, I don't know why it is people around here are surprised as Kerry's difficulty in breaking 50% in the polls against Bush.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
64. Who ever said beating an incumbent war mongerer was easy?
It just ain't.
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NicRic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
65. Media !
Edited on Sun Oct-24-04 10:48 AM by NicRic
passive and interested in dumbing down the American voter ! Things like making the headline a comment Thresa Kerry made ,instead or reporting on the fact that Pat Robertson told bush to warn us about the amount of deaths from the war, and busg denies he ever said that ,basically saying Robertson is a lier ! They really need to get their priorities right, and their collective heads out of their asses. If Kerry should do the unthinkable and not win,I dont know how I can continue to keep politics in my life. This is America ,and the good guys are suppose to win. Right now I have hope thats what will happen, if it does'nt ,depression and resentment will set in . I will need a break from the entire process !
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
67. There is a battle against the truth...
Diversions, distortions, exaggerations, outright lies, and defending them with loud and certain voices on the airwaves of this country have put the truth on the defensive.
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dave502d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-04 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
69. The only way i can see Bush winning.
If they have some master plane in place to cheat.The GOP would have
liked to seen us vote yesterday,The longer this go on,the more he drop in the polls,So if he is low in the polls and cheat, what will
people think?
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
73. Because the nation, like *, finds it difficult to admit that
it was wrong--a very human thing.
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