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Schneider--Newly Registered Already Counted in the Polls.

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DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:36 PM
Original message
Schneider--Newly Registered Already Counted in the Polls.
I want comment/input. This afternoon Bill Schneider (sp?) on CNN was doing a spot on the polls and what they say and do not say. He maintained that it is a fallacy for those of us (like here at DU) who say that the polls are not hitting the "new registers" and thus we are going to see a surge of them in the end that gives us victory. He said they ARE being counted by these pollsters.. He said they are part of that section called "registered voters". He said that "likely voters" in these polls are not determined on ONLY things like past voting; but also on how enthusiastic the person is about voting this time (whatever).

Therefore, he maintains that as we are looking at these polls that the "newly registered" are also polled and taken into these surveys. He went on to say that the biggest turnout was in the 1960's in the JFK election and then only 60% of "registered voters" voted. He said that the stats, therefore, that we see of the "registered voters" includes all these new "sign ups" and, of course, not 100% of them will vote and thus it's the Likely Voters that is the accurate account. In other words, Billy Boy is trying to tell us that all of these "newly registered" that we are depending on have been counted and evaluated and the results are: Bush wins. I've seen these stats over and over again (like 5% advantage repubicans) for years, and I've seen them dead wrong over and over again. Comments???
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. if they are making random calls some of the new voters will show up
but not the cell phone users
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. we basically need a bigger turnout than 1960
Otherwise it's back to oligarchy.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Gallup's "LV" survey was WRONG in 2000, Registered was dead on.
not to mention the OVERSAMPLING of Repukes in both categories.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am expecting turnout of about 60%
of all eligible adults.

In 2000 only 51% of adults voted.

Naturally not all registered voters will actually make it out to the polls, but probably 80% or so will, these are "likely voters"

There is no reason that polls do not pick up new registered voters because they should be represented in a random sample, but the problem many pollsters are having this year is cell-phone only households, especially among the 18-29 demographic that is thought to trend heavily Democratic.
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kokomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bill Schneider is a right-wing AEI hack. Don't believe his propaganda.
He keeps the company of Newt Gingrich, Irving Kristol, Richard Perle, Michael Ledeen.... need I say more?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Sounds like a NIGHTMARE!
They think they're so scarey! :scared:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well Kerry does do better among RV then LV.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry must have large turnouts from
minorities (hence the intimidation) AND young folks 18 - 35 yrs. In 2002 Blacks did not turn out and you know what happened then. That's why $125 million has gone into registration and GOTV. We got the voter registration done. If GOTV doesn't happen, it's all over.
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kypp Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. I may be wrong, but...
I thought that some polls (not the random-phone-number ones) use lists of past voters to do their surveys, so they don't include newly-registered voters. They just use estimates of past elections for new voter numbers - so, if this year there are a lot more, than those polls are unreliable. Anyone have any info on this?
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. if you have a poor vote history, i.e. new or infrequent voters,
you are "thrown out" of the sample in many polls.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. My daughter hasn't been called
We get calls every day, she gets none. She's a newly registered voter. I do not think they're picking them up. Besides, when Dems vote, Dems win. It's always been true.
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Clinton Crusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. called for polls? Ive voted since I was 18 and Ive never been called
Besides Im not buying this 'newly registered' are counted. Nope. Not buyin' it. More CNN bullshit.
:kick:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. We're in Oregon
The calls have let up because I voted, but before that it was several calls a day. My daughter got none, newly registered. My son has a cell phone, never polled. His friends are at work or on their cell phones, never polled. Not home on Saturdays, never polled. They're missing alot of people in these polls.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's not just young people registering to vote
It's people, like my husband (50), who have not registered or voted in years. He spoke to his cousin in PA today and his cousin told him that he hasn't voted in years either, and is doing so this year to get rid of Bush*. Something that cannot be measured by polls is taking place. I know so many people who are getting off their butts and getting educated about this administration and all its lies-- the fraud-in-chief only has a week left before he realizes that people are sick of him and his lies.
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. 39 years old (as of yesterday)
I've never registered or voted in my entire life.

This year I registered and voted, specifically to vote against Bush. I have never been polled and I am not sure how someone like me would be included in the polls.

I am sure that there are a lot of people like me who were inspired to vote by recent events.

PS: Don't flame me for not voting in the past, I've heard it all believe me.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Welcome to DU and the

electorate! I salute you for voting this year, because this is the most important vote of our lifetimes.

:hi:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. The pollsters set their models before they make the calls.
They use numbers from previous elections (or whatever other source they want to use) to set their demographics, then make calls until they fill the pre-determined demographic.

Hypothetical example:

Shoofly Research looks at data from past six national elections (presidential and off-year) and determines that based on past numbers and perceived trends, the turn-out this year will be --
Dems - 36%
Pukes - 34%
Indies - 30%
based on official voter registration.

They also determine that the percentages of registered voters who voted in at least 4 of the 6 elections have been
Dems - 74%
Pukes - 78%
Indies - 84%


They determine that an accurate sampling can be taken from 2095 respondents.


They call 4290 randomly chosen phone numbers and reach 2095 respondents. Of those 2095 respondents, 714 identify themself as Dems, 824 identify themselves as Pukes, 557 as Indies. Since these percentages don't match their intended demographic, they make more calls until they reach 40 additional Dems and 71 additional Indies, and they discard at random 90 Pukes.

They fill the predetermined numbers, no matter how many phone calls they have to make. In a sense, they already know what the results will be, because they've "controlled" the sample to that extent.

In the course of these phone interviews, they ask each respondent "If the election were held today, who would you vote for?"

After they've received all the responses from the pre-determined set of subjects, they apply the "likely voter" percentage.

I won't do the math, because it's only a hypothetical. The point, however, is that the different polling organizations set up different definitions for their "likely" voters, some based on self-identification and some on past record and some on percentages and some on various combinations thereof. They use different demographics. Gallup is weighted heavily GOP -- but I'll bet they have some (albeit bizarre) justification for it.

And inherent in all this is a certain amount of guesswork. It's all a projection based on experience, but things change and the "trend" may not be 100% accurate. Over a ten year period, suppose Dem registration goes up 5% a year, Puke registration 4%, Indy registration 7%, based on a steady, predictable increase in population. But what happens when you have a sudden 24% over-all increase in registration in a single state or county? How can you project those "historical" percentages onto an aberrant increase? All you can do is guess.

This is what happens with the cell-phone-only group. The pollster determines, from past voter rolls, that 15% of the registered voters are in the 18-24 age group, and they traditionally vote at a 32% rate. They're going to call sufficient phone numbers until they reach the appropriate sample based on their total. It won't matter if they pre-determine that number of 18-24 year old voters to be 5, 50, or 578 -- they will call until they reach that number, and they will base their projections accordingly.

It's not because there are a bunch of 18-24 year olds who only have cell phones and can't be polled that is going to skew the numbers. It's the fact that the numbers can only be based on past data and whatever the pollster considers "reasonable" projections.

A good pollster can compensate for this, either by adjusting the sample or the percentge, or by including additional information. That information can come from just about anywhere. For example, if there are studies that show XX thousands of young people have cell phones and no land lines, that can be extrapolated into the sample. There are other ways of surveying besides phone polls: face-to-face polls, focus groups, even on-line polls.

The variances between the polls isn't indicative that one is "right" and another "wrong," but rather that they are defining their terms differently in an attempt to predict the future. They take a snapshot now and suggest that the way things are tonight, they will remain the same on Nov. 2. But we all know that some people change their minds, some haven't made up their minds, some who say they're going to vote won't and some who say they might or might not, actually will.

So the pollsters try, and they're a little better than Magic 8 Balls, but they still can't predict the future, because even the past isn't perfect, and they bring to it their own very human biases and errors and hopes and fears.

It may very well turn out that the cell-phone-only population will swing the election, or the fundies who are turned off by any positive talk about civil unions or the traditional pukes who can't stand deficits or the pro-life moderate <?> dems or whatever.

Each voter falls into lots and lots and lots of different categories, so trying to define each and every one isn't within the realm of a 1400-person poll sample. Just think about how many categories each of us falls into -- cell phone only, cell phone plus land line, land line only; internet dial-up, internet broadband, internet wireless, no internet; internet at home, internet at work, internet at school, internet at home and work, internet at home and school, internet at work and school, internet at work and home and school, etc., etc., etc. Gay, straight, bi, metro, celibate. Married, single, divorced, widowed, polygamous. Income level. Education level. Parents' income level. Parents' education level.

Each of us is, in fact, a demographic of one. And that's why each of us has one vote and --with any luck -- it will be counted. The pre-election polls can only guess, within their own pre-determined margin of error.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Why are you watching Schneider's pomp about polls instead of working
Edited on Tue Oct-26-04 07:06 PM by w4rma
on helping Democrats and Sen. John Kerry get elected?!?!?!?

Ignore the polls!!! Watching them will not help Democrats get elected and therefore is a waste of time. It also allows big media to talk about polls instead of talking about issues.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Bill Schneider is an AEI propagandist .....
Leslie Blitzer is(was) associated with AIPAC ...

Both are Blood Brothers of the PNAC .....

I only learned of this recently: but it makes perfect sense that they would shill for their peers in Neocon government ...
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