If we have to lose soldiers in Iraq, I hope they and their parents are all

[searchingforlight]

people who supported the war and this administration. It is wrong to die in a war you don't support but got caught up in because of an evil administration.

[LynnTheDem]

1. Sorry.

But nope, many many many of the Americans killed and many of the families of our American friends & neighbors who have been killed in Iraq do not and never did support the invasion nor the bushCartel.

And it adds even more pain to the total and utter devastation of their loss.

[novadem]

2. The All Volunteer Army is a good thing.

No one should sign up if they aren't willing to obey the orders of the President and military chain of command regardless of politics. They take an oath to that effect.

A draft-army would be a different matter.

[LynnTheDem]

3. And how about the 2/3rds of the US military that SPECIFICALLY SIGNED ON

for NON-COMBAT MOSs?

How about the entire US military that signed on to NOT BE LIED TO WAR??? Who were NEVER told they'd be rushed off without enough BULLETS and ARMOR and GUNS and ARMORED VEHICLES?

How about the OATH to UPHOLD THE USC, which comes BEFORE obeying the CiC? How come the US military brass obeyed bush, when bush violated the USC? Should the soldiers have expected that when they volunteered?

How about all the US VOLUNTARY soldiers who are now DRAFTED?

[RivetJoint]

6. What draftees?

EVERYONE who signs on KNOWS they could be put into combat. EVERYONE. It's part of the deal.

[tkmorris]

8. The ones

whose contract expired a long time ago but weren't allowed to leave.

And no. No one signs with the idea "OK, I get x amount of pay and bennies, and in return they can tell me to go fight anyone they feel might help them politically". They join with the idealistic notion that they are defending and protecting the USA. Then they find out different, usually about 2 weeks after they reach their first real duty station (training bases do not count).

Fighting a war you cannot win, a war that was initiated based upon lies and politics, against an "enemy" that really is a group of people who are kinda pissed that you accidently bombed their sisters house killing her and her children, and yet your officers refuse to move their base of Ops out of the local elementary school, well let's just say that can make a man a bit cynical about the whole semper fi, do or die shit. That aint what they signed on for and they know it well, even if you do not.

[ZR2]

11. There is absolutely no such thing

as a non-combat MOS.

[aneerkoinos]

4. Bullshit

Paid "volunteer" army is the mercenary army. They will shoot the people for a buck.

Draft-army is people's army. They won't shoot the people for a buck.

And then there's revolutionary army...

[The Sad Little Pony]

7. I'm uncomfortable...

With the idea that "voluntary" is unfair/unjust, but FORCED conscription is FAIR/JUST.

That just seems a bit too Orwelian for me.

[aneerkoinos]

12. Fairness and justice

didn't come up in my post. My point was the bloody obvious: people's army is less likely to shoot their own people than a mercenary army, and it's much more difficult to start wars of aggression with a conscript army.

How's your parents beeing so poor that "voluntarily" joining the army is the only way to get decent education FAIR/JUST, while rich kids don't? You are FORCED to pay taxes, is that FAIR/JUST? Am I talking with libertarian or progressive?

You also need to understand that a modern conscription army is also voluntary, consciouss objectors don't need to serve so majority of people need to feel that their country is worth defending.

[The Sad Little Pony]

13. I agree.

...many things are indeed not fair or just.

[tkmorris]

5. Tell you what mate

You go read the oath we take when we join the military. I know it by heart, I've recited it with my right hand in the air.

The primary part of that oath is to protect and defend the United States of America. Sure, later it speaks to obeying the orders of those placed above you including the CIC, but first and foremost is the motherland.

It's when those ideas conflict that it gets hairy. What if those placed above you order you to do things which have nothing whatever to do with protecting and defending the US of A? It's not an easy question, especially when you consider that "unlawful" orders are not only not neccessary to be obeyed, but in fact are ILLEGAL to obey. See Nuremberg for details on that one.

Lots of our young men and women joined the military with grand ideals only to find themselves being ordered to kill innocent people in a land far away based upon alleged crimes their government supposedly commited but demonstrably did not. This leads to dissent, indecision, and poor morale. If you cannot understand that I respectfully suggest that you learn to support our troops a bit better.

[IrateCitizen]

14. The military oath is to the Constitution, not the President.

I should know. I took it as a commissioned officer. The oath I took was to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic..." The oath that enlisted members take says that, plus, "... and to obey the orders of the officers appointed over me."

Enlisted members are required to obey officers' orders, but nowhere in the officer oath does it say anything about the President or chain of command -- only the CONSTITUTION.

[novadem]

16. If you were a commissioned officer

then surely you understand the Chain of Command. The POTUS is at the top of it.

If someone is not willing to obey the lawful orders of his chain of command, he shouldn't be in the military.

[Bridget Burke]

15. Hey, New Democrat.....

How many of those over there now signed up when idiot Bush was president? Especially the Guard & Reserves.

And how many were deluded by all the propaganda that linked 9/11 to Saddam? Especially the under-educated ones who were hoping for college money.

[OctOct1]

9. I understand how you feel

I understand the pain you have.
I would love nothing better then a big tornado to hit the mid section of our country and wipe everyone out.
Our hard work on Civil right, Labor rights, and an honorable image for America has been stepped on and rubbed soar with pain.

As they enjoy all the rights and freedoms that liberals have worked so long and hard for, they tell us over, and over, and over again that we are out of touch, immoral, week and stupid.

I see it as they slapped mom in the face.
Mom who has sacrificed, loved, given, seen only the truth and hoped for the best.
Will mom slap back........
Never!!!
She is abused, hurt, cries, and feels pain greater then the child can ever imagine.
But in the end, she will be there when her child falls.
She will wipe the tears and Say "I told you so".
She never abandons the child.
Or does she??????

[Padraig18]

10. I've met the parents of 8 soldiers who died in Iraq

Not ONE voted for *.