Southerners, please understand

[mrgorth]

1) We (blue state northerners) do not hate the south or southerners.
2) We do not want to ignore the south.
3) We'd be happy to have a southern candidate.
4) We'd be happy to campaign in the south.

One thing, we can't compromise on gay rights, women's rights, seperation of church and state or the environment. Now how do you suggest we work that out? I personally think that Clinton's economic centrism hurt us in the south. Yet, because he was Clinton, people voted for him. Thoughts.

[LizW]

1. I believe you

And those things are good to know.

I totally agree about the issues on which we must not compromise. Now, as to your question, I don't have an answer. I don't know how we combat the use of bigotry in politics. It is possible that it can't be done and that we have to find other ways to advance progressive ideals and values.

[Mike L]

58. There is no answer the way the question is set up.

If we want their votes, we must follow their cultural values. Period.

[VelmaD]

2. First off you can stop implying...

that southerners don't believe in "gay rights, women's rights, seperation of church and state or the environment".

Plenty of those anti-gay marriage amendments passed in northern or western states. And according to my ex who was Hispanic he prefered living in the south because there was just as much racism in the north but at least down here people who were racists were honest about it.

[enki23]

16. that's a load of crap

"at least down here people who were racists were honest about it."

bullshit. the majority of white folk down here are racists, and most of them are just as surely *not* 'honest about it.' there are just so many like them here that some of the worst of them feel free to be overt. i'm sick of this canard. i've lived in both the south and the north, and while the north has its share of racism it can't *touch* the nastiness of this place.

[VelmaD]

17. I am merely passing along...

what he said about it.

[Haviland_42]

18. Well yeah but.....

what about the reverse racism? I live in Mississippi and yes, white racism still abounds but black racism is just as bad!

What about that??????

[noiretextatique]

20. when was the last time a black man disenfranchised you?

when that happens, then i will believe your reverse racism claim :eyes:

[Haviland_42]

23. Is racism ONLY about being disenfranchised?

I'm sorry, I thought racism was about one race feeling superior over another based on certain things, particularly skin color.

And I can tell you I have NEVER treated anyone disrepectfully based on their skin color but I get treated disrespectfully ALL THE TIME based on mine.

Have YOU ever tried to get hired on at a business that was owned by a black person and been told that "as much as they appreciate your abilities, they feel the black patrons would be better served by someone of their own color"? Well I have!

How's THAT for reverse racism?

[noiretextatique]

46. you should file a complaint with the EEOC, and that is racism

and yes, i know exactly what that experience is like. sorry that happened to you, but i still the reverse of that racism touches far more lives. you may not do it personally, but the people who are doing it look just like you.

[geek tragedy]

21. Oh bullshit.

Say hi to Jimmy Robinson for us.

[MsTryska]

31. Why would that be BS?

I've seen it happen.

and i'm neither black nor white.

[noiretextatique]

50. of course it happens...no one is immune

particularly those who feel justified. is it that surprising that a black business owner in the south might not hire a white person, simply because he is white? if the situation were reversed, no one would think a thing about it.
as to disenfranchisement and the power of certain groups in society, i have yet to hear of black policemen in florida harassing white voters.

[Fleshdancer]

22. The difference is....

The only thing a white person has to do to avoid reverse racism is drive 10-20 miles in any direction out of whatever area they're in that discriminates against them. Black people don't get that luxury.

[Haviland_42]

26. While I applaud your statement....

...why should ANY of us have to drive anywhere? Why can't we all see past the skin color?

[Fleshdancer]

34. I'll be the first one to say no one should be judged by their skin...

but the reality is that humans shape and generalized their opinions of others based on their own personal experiences. So, say you're in an area where minorities who don't trust or like you based on your skin color, then think how that came to pass. Racism isn't genetic. One has to work hard at hating that much.

And if having to drive somewhere else is bad, try being black and feeling like you have to be contained in a 4-8 block radius to feel safe and unjudged.

[pnb]

30. There ain't no such thing as "reverse racism"

Racism is racism, regardless of who is guilty of it. And it exists in the hearts of some whites and some blacks and some other groups everywhere.

[pnb]

24. no load a crap

I've lived in both places and what that poster said has been my experience too. The majority of white folks, at least in GA anyway, are certainly not racist.

The poster was also correct in that the racism that does exist in either place is more quiet in the north. The only reason they didn't burn crosses up north is because they had and still have a good enough system of keeping blacks out of the "wrong" neighborhoods that no one there felt the need to.

[pnb]

25. dupe

n/t

[pnb]

27. dupe

n/t

[Xipe Totec]

47. No, Velma is right

I've also lived in the north and in the south. Bigotry in the South is more in-your-face and therefore more frightening. But up north it is more subtle, hard to spot, and therefore ultimately more damaging.

(on edit)

While I am Hispanic, I easily pass for white in accent, vocabulary, and appearance. Therefore I've had opportunity to blend in to discussions undetected. I have, personally, witnessed conversations regarding property values being lowered by minorities moving in, fear of crime, etc. I love seeing people turn from a pinkish tint to a ghostly white when they realize their faux pass. But I've also known truly gentle souls whose love for humanity truly transcend skin color. That's when I know I am in the presence of God.

[noiretextatique]

51. it's not subtle in california,,,the only place i've been called the n word

and i've been to the south many times. it's not subtle at all...people are just more likely to pretend it doesn't exist.
it's always something else, right VelmaD? happens all the time.

[Jack_DeLeon]

42. he "WAS" Hispanic....

wow I didnt know we Hispanics could pull a Micheal Jackson. :silly:

Heh J/K, but I would probably agree with him.

There is racism everywhere, some places are just more obvious than others.

[VelmaD]

43. He IS Hispanic still...

he WAS my boyfriend. Stupid grammar. x( :)

[MattG]

61. I agree

For some reason, I've always looked at my Northern friends as more racist people. They may not say nigger (oh NO I SAID A WORD!!!) and they might well, um, have spoken nicely to black people or something. But I think that the biggest form of racism from both sides is not HATE but fear. Because of stereotypes, every white kid knows not to say anything back to the black kid who will treat them like crap because they're so afraid that a "gatt will be taken out and a cap will be busted in their cracker asses". While black kids have the history books to help their fear and distrust of white people. I know there are a lot of other races out there, but black vs. white is the most dangerous and deeply rooted race battle that goes on in America. Honestly, everyone thinks that THEIR side is the one that is mistreated, under-represented, and are second class citizens. I think everyone is.

[mrgorth]

59. I'm not implying anything

I want to straighten out the communications.

[guitar man]

3. hard to say

I do know that the reason the pukes have been so successful is that they have managed to hammer together an unlikely coalition of bible thumpers, libertarians, capitalistas, etc. etc. It seems they found a common tie that binds them, money and greed. They have managed to assemble a voting block of people that probably couldn't stand to be in the same room with each other and it works.

I would guess we need to do something similar. We just need to find a common tie and agree to disagree on the rest.

[Selatius]

4. I'd be a Socialist Party USA member if I weren't a Democrat

The thing that gets many southerners is the "moral values" card. Yes, abortion, gay rights, etc. are not acceptable by the majority of people here, yet the argument the Democratic Party has failed to make down here is that there is a difference between holding a religious belief and attempting to legislate it. With the latter, you now deal with the rights of other individuals, and that's where the line should be drawn. You are entitled to your beliefs, but you have no ground to impose that upon others.

There is no contradiction between allowing others the choice to abortions and not endorsing it yourself. If anything, that's the highest expression of one of Jesus' tenets: Tolerance and acceptance, especially of some of the choices others make. Unfortunately, many Christians often ignore that. If there ever was a progressive liberal, it was Jesus. They don't call us bleeding hearts for nothing.

On economic issues, the Democrats win. Social programs in general benefit many rural southerners. Down here in Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour took incredible flak for trying to boot off 65,000 on Medicare in a "restructuring" measure. His argument was that he was trying to move people off of state Medicare and onto federal Medicare, but the fed doesn't exactly have money right now. The key to winning the south back to the Democrats is to play the populist card, the working man's card.

The Democratic leadership abandoned southerners the day they stopped pushing the populist message in favor of the "moving to the right" strategy. Yes, it is true the Democratic leadership took a tremendous hit with the south over the 1965 Civil Rights Act, but they should have been able to win it back. It's been four decades, and many people here simply don't give a damn about segregation anymore. Only a few diehard nutjobs still justify the evils of segregation and racism.

It may actually be wise in the longer run to abandon gay rights and abortion to the arena of states' rights. The simple fact is AT LEAST half the country doesn't see eye-to-eye on homosexuality and abortion.

[davepc]

69. and guns

[Shakespeare]

5. On more time: it's not a north/south issue, it's an urban/rural issue.

(bangs head against wall....again)

You need to be giving that list to people in Fresno, CA and Billings, Montana and upstate NY, too.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

10. more right-wing bullshit

The left never "shouted, pushed amd bullied". Those would be the right's tactics.

And the last time I checked the majority of Americans believed abortion should be legal and the majority was in favor of civil unions for gays.

[MsTryska]

14. You were shouting pushing and bullying just

yesterday velma.

i'm not trying to insult, and i'm a straight, pro-choice female, but i was a bit taken aback by your "rabid" posts yesterday, and realized that this is the very hysterics that hurt us when it comes to courting moderates and conservatives.

[VelmaD]

15. Whatever.

Sorry I'm too rabid and hysterical for you. :eyes: I have no desire to court conservatives when it comes to some issues. And if I was angry yesterday it was because strait white men who claim to be liberal were telling the women and gays on this board to sit down and shut up. They started it by blaming ME for losing the election. I am done being nice. From now on it's tough love for conservatives and for my fellow "liberals". When people who clain to be liberals and progressives spew vitriolic homophobic and sexist nonsense they are gonna hear about it from me. End. Of. Story.

[bagnana]

11. They are moral issues to me as well.

I view people who do not want gays to have the same rights as others as bigots. That is a moral issue for me. I don't like bigots. I think bigotry is immoral.

[MsTryska]

12. deep post.

and interesting analysis.


can i presume that you are my enemy's enemy?


actually from your website i see that you are.


so here's the conundrum. I refuse to budge on my beliefs in personal freedom and equal rights for all.

I also won't budge in my belief in the right to choose.

I believe in the right to bear arms and gun controls in the form of waiting periods, background checks, licensing and no assault weapons for anyone who isn't currently serving the armed forces.


where is the middle ground in your opinion?

[jarab]

7. I can just imagine the venerable

General Lee making this proposition to US Grant at the little courthouse in Virginia.
And, I can imagine the reply: "It's just a little bit late , ain't it, Bobby?"
...O...

[Stuckinthebush]

8. Check

Hell, I'm a Southerner and I don't want a Southern candidate!

Bah! Ptooey!

[Eagle_Eye]

13. I'm in the south

and I wish we were blue. A band of knuckle dragging rednecks have pushed the reasonable people to the side making it look like everyone in the state are filled with hate. Just because the media calls us RED, some of us are really BLUE

[T Town Jake]

9. It's hard sometimes...

...last night there was a thread that spun out of control with hateful comments (to which both sides contributed, including myself). I was called a "loser" and repeatedly told that the entire region I live in could "fuck off," presumably even progressives here. Very counterproductive and hurtful. I didn't used to believe the cliches about Democrats going into a "circular firing squad" mode after losing an election until now. Hope things can settle down and we can start being civil to one another here again.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Please check out the map linked in this thread.....

Before you make any more Blue versus Red statements.

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1330109

I don't ask for any compromise on those matters at all. And I think that a bit of rabble-rousing populism would go over well in the South, if the candidate would condescend to campaign here. (They do drop by the big cities for private fund-raising events.)

Edited to add the graphic, if anybody cares:

[starbuck6446]

28. it's the Church, stupid... note: I'm not calling you stupid... :)

Here's the thing...

Church in the south is nearly obligatory. Introductions down here go similar to: What's your name and where do you go to church?

It's not always a faith that brings people in the doors, but the socialization/networking opportunities.

The problem is that churches are basically now GOP headquarters. They get around the law by not NAMING a candidate, but railing about abortion or gay-rights.

Here in the south, if you are having a political conversation and express anything against the "right" - the person shuts down. You could say "Democrats believe the sky is blue" and they will counter with "I will not support any candidate that supports abortion." There is NO other political discussion.

I am convinced a lot of these people do not know ANY other positions other than guns, gays, and abortion.

What frustrates me is that my faith and commitment to Christianity is questioned DAILY by these idiots. They are uninformed to the highest degree... because they stick their fingers in their ears and sing la la la until they can have a chance to scream Baby-Killer.

How do you frame a discussion if the discussion cannot happen??

[Bridget Burke]

37. Where do you live in the South?

I live in Houston & most of the people I know do not fit your description.

[starbuck6446]

45. South Carolina....

[Shopaholic]

54. Starbuck is right---

I live in South Carolina and that's the mindset. My Uncle and Aunt are good people but they both voted for * because of the abortion issue. They're single issue voters and that's the issue that matters to them, no matter that they are both on social security. No matter that they both think the Iraq War was planned from Day 1 of the * administration. They also have questions about 9/11 and the LIHOP or MIHOP theories. They aren't stupid people. But this is what's important to them and that's how they voted.

And the question, "Where do you go to Church" is indeed usually Question #2 or #3 around these parts.

Here's the thing--I don't want the Democrats to leave anybody behind--not Gays, Or Minorities, or ANYONE. I want us to fight for everyone.

But there is hope: I consider myself to be a Christian (Southern Baptist) and I'm a liberal Democrat because I believe that Christ would want me to help the poor, the downtrodden, he'd want me to fight for the equal rights and protection for everyone--now just the few. I was raised this way by my parents, who are, yes, Southern Baptist, and Liberal Democrats. My 62-year old mother keeps repeating, "I just don't get it. So if we don't vote for the Repugs, we aren't Christians?" Is that the message? Because I don't understand how they could be Christians and vote for the Republicans!"

So not every religious Southerner is a Conservative Republican.

[Mike L]

60. Star,

you must live in the Upstate.

[starbuck6446]

64. I do... close to Charlotte, NC - how's my descrip? Similar to what

you're seeing?

[SharonAnn]

55. And I live in East Tennesee and his description is right on!

The discussion CANNOT happen. There is no discussion. If you question anything you are a "babykiller". End of discussion.

[starbuck6446]

65. What kills me is that it's perpetuated from the pulpit... I really am

at a loss on how to counter it. On both levels - how do we "reclaim" what they've hijacked - our religon AND our politics??

[MsTryska]

38. How about:

Your guy kills more babies than my guys ever did, and guess what? abortion is still legal.


then show them the statistic.



and then maybe when they are dumbfounded you can slide into economics.

[starbuck6446]

67. tried... A LOT ... doesn't work... AT ALL. What is happening is that

these people are so FIXATED and foaming-at-the-mouth that they take the politics of the right as the "fifth" gospel. When we talk about drinking the Kool-aid, THIS is what it looks like.

[starbuck6446]

29. dupe - it was so brilliant I posted it twice :)

[tarheel_voter]

32. Look at NC...on 11/3 all our statewide offices still held by Democrats

Talk to Democrat Mike Easley "The Guv" or Democrat Beverly Purdue "Lt. Guv" in Raleigh and find out how they got reelected... against a huge Bush margin no less.

[MattG]

63. Easley won NC because of Andy Griffith endorsement

Hey, I remember I wanted to vote for him without knowing his party back when he was running 2000

[Xipe Totec]

33. Painting Whole States with a fat brush

Here is a county-by-county map of the U.S. showing who won where. From looking at the map, you wouldn't know that almost half the population voted for Kerry. It shows very clearly how Kerry's base is in highly-populated urban areas and Bush's base is more in suburban and rural areas

It also shows that the Hispanics in South Texas went for Kerry.

Arriba mi raza!



http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[MsTryska]

39. Hmm...

i'm surprised at the counties in middle and south georgia and that band right across alabama.


what coincides with that band and who are those people?

[Xipe Totec]

40. Who are those people? Our future

I'm guessing but that's probably where the main highways run through the South bringing commerce and industry and raising the population density.

It shows that we do have bastions of democracy even in the deep South, and a chance to regain the South, if we don't abandon our brethren down there.

Contact with the outside world is the key. You only fear what you don't know. In the urban areas people get to see each other as human beings and the cartoons painted by the Republican party disappear.

[MsTryska]

41. Mmm...I don't think it's the highway....

seems to run a little too low to be I-20 (i live in atlanta - that would be that blue speck in the northwest area of georgia) and I-20 runs right through the middle of us and right across Alabama....


Maybe a trainline? That's so strange.....i'll have to do some research.

[Xipe Totec]

44. That's the spirit!

A little bit of 'ground truth' to validate the map.

Whatever it is, it is consistent with the 2000 map, so it's not going away.

[QC]

56. The strip across Alabama is called the Black Belt.

It's named for the color of the soil, but the description also applies to the population. And it is very heavily Democratic.

That points up a real problem with this collective "abandon the south" tantrum we're caught up in--abandoning and south means abandoning most of America's black population.

[tsuki]

48. The smart ones.

I live in the dumb section of Florida.

[MsTryska]

52. *lol*! Bless your heart.....

well let's work to change that.

what part of florida are you in anyways?

[Ripley]

35. Yeah, that's why you guys keep starting threads about ways to destroy

the South.

[YNGW]

36. Good question.

And if they say they can't compromise on their positions on these subjects, then I guess we're at a stalemate.

[mrgorth]

57. Well, I mean...

that's why you're getting the "fuck the south" threads. People are saying we need to be more moderate to get the south and we'e saying we can't backpedal anymore. Now, if the way to the south is just getting someone who is from the south or who can appeal to them wthout compromise, fine. I don't want to draft Jeb Bush for instance just because he's popular in FL.

[wildeyed]

49. There is allot of south bashing going on right now.

But things are more complicated here than allot of the blue staters know. I grew up in the some of the bluest parts of blue states, SF bay area and DC. But I have been living in Charlotte NC for the past few years. Now Charlotte is nowhere near as conservative as other parts of the South, we went Kerry by about 5 points, but it still gives me a sense of how things are down here.

I know many Bush voters and they are not the evil mouth breathers that everyone make them out to be (although I am so goddam mad I can barely look at them right now). They are not all fundies. They are not stupid, as in laking IQ points, but they don't think independently, either. They are not all that different from me on the issues. But we (dems) are not communicating with them. Not at all.

I think we need to find a better way to talk about abortion and religion. I know that allot of dems, myself included, think that religion is personal and should not mix with politics. But I think this is an area where we will have to compromise if we want to attract this group. I think we need to talk about ways to decrease abortions, (which isn't by banning the procedure) instead of yelling about keeping abortion safe and legal.

One of my first orders of business is to talk to my progressive Christian friends about how to speak more effectively to Christians about politics. I know a few young anti-war evangelicals who voted Kerry. I hope they will be a great resource.

We need to highlight the relationship between big business and the repub party and how they screw the little guy for big profits. Allot of these lower middle class social conservatives don't care that much about money, they work to live, not the other way around, and they really do like kids, that's why they have so many so young. but they tend to be struggling financially to some degree. So if we can show them they are being played, and how we can do better, that might help.

We need to rebuild the grass roots structure of the demo party here in the south.

[BamaGirl]

53. After reading the red states-blue states, progressive-moderate, north-sout

posts the last few days, I just don't know if it's possible to get the South back. We'll continue to fight and win on local and state levels, but the first time a Rep calls a Dem presidential candidate liberal, it's over down here. You might be able to get them to your side, if you could get them to listen, but they shut you out first adn never hear another word you say. In the South, the RW equates liberal with pro-abortion. We have to undo that. Maybe an emphasis on individuals rights. Or make an ad like this...hire a well respected well known conservative actor and re-do Jefferson's address to the Danville Baptist Church (in Va) assuring them that the government would stay out of their business. Do ads with Puritans bemoaning their subjugation at the hands of majority rule. We have to remind these people constantly that those Puritans they like to pretend were Founding Fathers came here to escape gov in their religion, and it would be against their beliefs, this idea of combining the two. Maybe we need PAC's in the South constantly running ads that are dramatizations of historic Southern figures railing against gov intrusion on individual/religious rights.

One thing I do know for certain. The Right has re-written the culture here. They did it incrementally, with a whisper, church driven PR machine over the past 20 years or so. We can't undo that without a machine of our own, and let's face, the Party thinks we are beyond hope and we aren't going to get that kind of help. They chipped us apart piece by piece, and that is the only way to reverse. The majority of voters here are not going to have a sudden epiphany and started voting Dem again.

I don't have any good ideas here. I will not give up on the South lol. Like a lot of Southerners, I'm contrary for the hell of it lol.

[sendero]

62. Personally...

... while I'm as pissed off at anyone who voted for Bush** as the next guy - here's a tiny little clue for the simple.

The South is only a few measly percentage points worse than the rest of the country.

I've lived in Texas for 46 years and there are bozos here and there are intelligent people here too.

So all this red-state blue-state south north midwest west southwest bullshit is just that - it is bullshit. And it's no different from any other form of bigotry to assume you can tell something about someone based on where they live.

[choicevoice]

66. I am as south as it gets...Louisiana

Let me agree 100% that there is to be no compromise on gay rights, womens rights and separation of church and state or the environment. I think you might find many active political Democrat in the south agrees with you also.

[DoNotRefill]

68. You really want to bring the South back into the fold?

take on the Second Amendment as a civil liberty issue. Repeal the stupid federal gun control laws now on the books.

They beat us with "God, Guns, and Gays". We can't do anything about God or Gays, but we certainly can do something on guns. Sell it as a "State's Rights" issue. That way, the states that want it can have it, and the states that don't are left alone.

Ever wonder how Mark Warner got elected governor of VA? He's pro-gun.