Let them overturn Roe, give them their flat tax, abandon gays, give up

[Mountainman]

on gun control. Who the hell are we if we do those things? What happens to our souls?



Is winning the only thing with some of us? If we win and have given up what we believe in what have we won? What have we gained? Nothing!

We must have core values that identify us and we must stick to them even if we remain out of power for some time. If winning means to accept right wing values then we have become right wingers only with a different name.

I will never give up on the things I helped fight for in my 58 years. I believe we need a progressive movement in this country. We had one before Reagan and we will have one again only if we stick to our core values.

What does it benefit a person if he gives up what they believe in to win a temporal victory? You might as well not have the beliefs in the first place.

Remember, what this administration does to hurt working class Dems also hurts working class Repubs. At some point, caring for your family becomes more important than a gay couple getting married.

[ret5hd]

1. exactly...

when they have to pawn their guns to buy food, they won't be worrying about what those two guys down the street are doing behind closed doors.

[lapislzi]

2. Easy, mountainman

I don't think anyone on these boards is ready to surrender any of the freedoms of which you speak. What I see emerging is a long-term strategy to preserve them, which may result in short-term losses for us. Some losses are going to be inevitable, with or without a fight. We can't squander our energy fighting for the unwinnable.

What's unwinnable? Well, that's still up for discussion. It will emerge over the next months. And that never means you stop believing in what you believe in, just that your (our) approach is going to have to change. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. I know our side is smarter. It's time we started acting that way.

I also think you seriously underestimate the hyperchristian mindset. Religion isn't everything; it's the only thing. (I know, it's hard sometimes getting your head that far up your ass to comprehend their position). If they were going to vote their economic interest, they would have done so by now. They're happy to make sacrifices because they think it's what god wants. Nothing (in their minds) could be more important than the conflation of government and religion. It's a quest of the highest order.

[Nederland]

3. Strawman

Nobody is suggesting we give up everything.

[Contrary1]

4. And pawning guns to buy food...

is just the beginning. Yes, there will be more hungry people, and fewer government dollars to help them out. Children must be clothed and fed. Many will choose illegal means to do that. Crime rates will go up. We have fewer police officers to protect us. As times grow more desperate, so will those who see no other option.

The cost to the health industry will be astronomical, as lower income women can not afford to pay their bills. Higher insurance premiums and copays.

We will need to build more schools to accommodate the growth in population, more teachers. Higher property taxes.

Then we have those who will abuse the children they never wanted to have in the first place. The courts will be clogged with new cases.
Not to even mention the cost of the jailing of these new inmates.
Higher county and state taxes.

None of Dubya's sheeple could ever think this far down the road for themselves. All hail the chief!