Dear Dean Folks! Can we all just get along?

[Quixote1818]

This message is NOT to ALL Dean people just the ones who want to have Dean's baby and are infatuated with him. I know 98% of Dean supporters are level headed awesome people.

Man, I am beginning to feel like if I don't think Dean is God and that Dean should be the leader of the Democratic party then their is something wrong with me. Dean is a good guy, I was originally a Dean supporter before Clark came along but to be honest Dean is no better or worse than a lot of Democrats to me. Why do you all feel like you have to convert the rest of us to worship Dean? I don't see the Clark people doing this. I don't see the Edwards people doing this? Can I please be able to like Dean and not love him? Did Pat Robertson suddenly become a Democrat and start working for the Dean for Chairman of the Democratic party campaign? Our Motto: any Democrat who does not want Dean as Chair is not really a Democrat!

Can we all just get along and embrace all Democrats both Progressive and Conservative? Can we accept Vilsack or who ever may end up getting the Democratic Chair position EVEN if god forbid it's not Dean? It reminds me of the kid who said "If I don't get my way then I am going to take my ball and go home and vote Green for the rest of my life! Please! We are all on the same side here! Lets love one another and accept that we are all different! Embrace diversity as that is what Democrats are suppose to be about! It won't be the end of the world if Dean is not Chair. We will all still have our Democratic Values and like it or not we are mostly alike. We are on the same side!

[kaitykaity]

1. There are Edwards people??

No, seriously.

I guess I'm one of the 98%. I'm okay if he's not chair, but
then again I'm so pissed off at everybody I have to make myself
not care.

:shrug:

[Guaranteed]

2. Look, people are sick of the losing.

The party needs to change, and people are going to leave if they don't. Dean's the guy who is best equipped to make the needed changes. Of course Al From isn't going to like that, though, and is going to do everything to maintain the party's path to destruction. If he wins, people are going to leave.

We already endured Dean being torpedoed once- and, guess what, we lost. No more.

[liberalnurse]

6. Ditto!

It is time for real leadership......Wake-Up Democrats.......

[Quixote1818]

39. Dean torpedoed? Yeah, the torpedo blew up before it left the ship.

You honestly think Dean would have won? He doesn't even have that much support on DU much less the rest of the country. Sure, we like Dean but we are not that overwhelmed by him either. When will you all accept that Dean never got better than third place in the Primaries? Why, because people knew he would not run that well against Bush? That was what people were voting on this year. Even Edwards and Clark at least won a state. Get it through your heads that Dean LOST. Don't you all remember Dean loosing by large margins to Bush in head to head polls???? Thats what did him in! He polled lousy against Bush while guys like Clark, Edwards and Kerry polled well against Bush.

[Guaranteed]

41. Your facts are ALL wrong, to begin with.

Dean took second in many primaries- and YES, he even WON a state.

Your problem is that you don't know what I'm referring to when I say "LEADERSHIP." The Republicans spent DECADES building the machine they have now- and you know how they did it??? Through dedication, grassroots organization, a consistent and clear message, framing the debate, and NOT BACKING DOWN.

THIS is what Dean understands, and you do not. THIS is why HE needs to be the one making the decisions for the party, not a bunch of DLC corporate whore APOLOGISTS who are apparently ashamed of being Democrats and have a MASSIVE LOSING RECORD. And there's no quick fix- you may be right, he could very well have still lost (although even Rove is on record saying that he is thankful that he didn't have to go up against Dean because of Dean's stance on the war). But it's a start in a LONG ROAD to taking back our country.

You are FEARFUL, and should NOT be making decisions for our party.

[madfloridian]

3. Well, tell some other of our leaders to speak up for us.

Dean has spoken at 3 colleges this week, he has been totally hitting the right issues every time.

I am willing to get along, but I am not going along with party on this ride anymore. We are sticking with DFA for now. At least we are outspoken and unafraid.

[Quixote1818]

8. I think they have but the media is not following that kind of thing now.

Kerry just ripped Bush today. Clark wrote a long article that was critical of Bush last week. I have heard Gore go nuts on Bush in the past. Edwards is probably trying to get some rest and time away from politics for a few weeks to get his energy back. People are tired right now as it's been a long election. Give people some time. They will be out their speaking their minds soon enough.

[IndianaGreen]

4. "Embrace all Democrats both Progressive and Conservative?"

You can not reconcile two irreconcilable ideas, so embracing conservatives and conservatism is anathema even if the conservative has a "D" after his/her name.

Let's start with the war in Iraq. Should we pull the troops out now, yes or no? As you can see, a "no" answer can never be accepted by people that opposed this war from day one.

[AllyCat]

9. Don't you think we are more conservative than the Repubs?

I mean, what they are doing is NOT conservative! Increasing debt, getting into people's personal lives...these are not conservative ideals.

In fact, I have seen more cries for fiscal responsibility and conservatism on this blog than anywhere in the media, particularly in reference to ShrubCo. So, yeah, right now, in the black is white, up is down world of Dubya, Progressivism and Conservatism don't seem that far apart.

[MuseRider]

5. Thank you.

This had to be said. Dean is not the only democrat, he is not the only one speaking up, he is not the only one with a SPINE! Before you all start asking me to prove it I am not going to. It might be you all could hear the other democrats if you would only listen. For the record I do not hate Dean, he is not someone I want to vote for but I do not hate him.

[madfloridian]

29. Who else is defying the party leadership to say what must be said?

No one. The party is in really bad trouble. I want change. He is the only one speaking out now on that.

Change does not come easy, and if we must be called worshippers or put down, then so be it.

[MuseRider]

31. Bull

and you know it. Listen for others and you just might find out that they are there. It seems many times they are not even on the radar screen because they don't have the "Dean Dozen" or some other thing. That does not mean they are not out there doing their thing. They are most certainly there.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. 4000 people voted on next summers DFA Democracy fest

We are much larger then the Dean Dozen. Other people might be out there, but they aren't doing anything constructive. That is the whole idea... to do something.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. Who else is speaking up?

No one

[Justitia]

7. We're tired of being insulted and demeaned, made to look like "fringe"

I never insulted the supporters of any candidate, yet Dean supporters are pinatas of the party. Can someone else's supporters get clubbed for awhile?

Don't like Dean? Fine! Just quit pissing all over those of us that do - thanks!

[Quixote1818]

10. Did you ever think that perhaps it's a self fulfilling prophesy?

If us Clark people started shoving Clark on everyone constantly then Clark people would start to get a stigma attached to them.

Buy the way, it's not Dean we have the problem with. It's the Dean Cult that seems to have developed in a small % of his followers.

[Justitia]

11. "Dean Cult"? "followers"? "stigma"? see what I mean??

And how exactly is anyone "shoving Dean" on anybody else?
Held a gun and forced them to donate to DFA or something?

Your colorful descriptions of supporters are the only "self fulfilling prophecy" I see here.

Drop the draconian language if you want to be given any credibility with your argument. Your word choices reveal your true feelings.

So much for "can't we all get along"...

[JohnKleeb]

13. maybe youre not doing it but

I find it pathetic that some Dean supporteres are pushing this "Only Dean is fit to lead our party" crap, I think he wouldn't make a bad DNC head, do not get me wrong but there are plenty who are critical of any democrat who is supporting Vilsack against Dean for DNC Chair. Not all Dean supporters are all the same of course but there are some who think that the party is damned if Dean doesn't get the DNC head position which I think is wrong.

[Justitia]

14. here's the thing, we ALL have opinions and this is politics

maybe you don't care for the sentiment and are sick of hearing about Dean, but that is the nature of this board.

Please remember, we had to suck it up and play nice when the primaries were over. We could not attack the candidate, no matter what our feelings were about Kerry. We played nice and stuck around. We didn't start talking about cults and followers with stigma and such when it came to Kerry's supporters.

So, please, if someone is just tired of hearing about Dean, go play in a less politically charged forum, but don't demonize individuals for the people they freely choose to support.

[JohnKleeb]

17. Its not that I am sick of hearing about Dean

I am sick of hearing ONLY Dean can do this and that. I am not demonizing his supporters in any way, I am just saying they shouldn't demonize everyone who is for Vilsack just because he may be opposing Dean for the DNC. Thats all I am saying. I never called you guys a cult on the board, I am merely saying some Dean supporters are very wrong to act like only Dean is fit to lead the party which is simplistic crap. BTW I really dont think Dean would make a bad DNC Chair, I just dont think we should insult Vilsack just because he's up against Dean, hes not the enemy, the republicans are, and when people eat our own it gradually paves the way for extinction.

[Justitia]

23. careful word choice goes a long way (aka diplomacy)

I am not referencing you here, but I think it has been pandemic on this forum to go after groups of supporters in a really destructive, divisive way.

I have always taken pains to not refer to supporters in dismissive terms like "Clarkies" or "Gephardt followers" etc. - it sounds derogative (although "folks" sounds ok - lol).

We all have some sort of identification with whom we choose to support and many of us want to persuade or cajole others to our point of view.

Lots of us are just venting. I'm just saying being careful with the characterizations goes a looooong way to maintaining at least the facade of respect for differences in opinion.

[JohnKleeb]

24. Thats why I said some which isn't generalization if I said all I apologize

There are gonna be jerks and good people no matter where you go. I understand you're upset and venting, how do you think I feel? my first choice candidiate didn't do so hot, I don't say only Kucinich can fix the party and I'll leave the party if he doesn't get so and so. You have every right to be upset but please for the love of god realize that there are a lot great democrats out there who do fight for you, I live near DC and take a political science course and I had the pleasure of meeting Senator Mary Landrieu, and I could see it in her eyes that she cares and was hurt as many of us were by Kerry's defeat.

[MuseRider]

21. So did the rest of us

DEAR. Many of us had to play along but most of us grew up and got over it. You should really not be telling other people to leave this site you should maybe look into what you are saying. I think Mr. Kleeb has shown far more class and ability to get along on this site than most of the Dean supporters I have seen. John is not playing he has actually been working. I know he can stick up for himself but this is just WAY over the line.

[Justitia]

25. I didn't tell anyone to leave this site?

I think you grossly misunderstood. No need for the snarky tone either. I was acknowledging the fact that sometimes people need a break from the charged atmosphere of this particular forum - not the whole site.

But, thanks for jumping all over me anyway.

[MuseRider]

27. Read your own post.

You are most welcome. It is usually not my style but this Dean stuff just sends me over the edge. See? This is not a reaction to Dean, my reaction the him was just :shrug: who cares? These constant posts and the adulation just really send me over. He is no different than 90% of the politicians that I have had the privilege to see in action. Spine does not equal anger. Before it comes and I see it coming....I UNDERSTAND, I simply do not like it.

[Justitia]

28. geez! whatever

If this "Dean stuff" just sends you "over the edge", what can I say?
Sorry you get so worked up over "these constant posts and the adulation", and you "simply do not like it" but this problem clearly lies with you.

[MuseRider]

30. It always does

lay with the rest of us so I guess I belong in that VERY large group.

[Justitia]

32. Ah NO, do not misrepresent me a 2nd time

I am not referring to any collective group of people, I am referring to you specifically.

In your posts to me you have made quite clear your very personal feelings about all the things mentioned above ("sick of all this Dean stuff", "adulation sends me over the edge", "simply do not like it", etc).

Those are YOUR issues, not collectively anyone else's.
And as such, debating with me is not going to help you.
I will not let you misrepresent my words again.

[MuseRider]

33. What ever.

I am growing very bored with all of this. My temper has cooled although I meant everything I said. So goodnight and WhatEver.

[JohnKleeb]

26. and believe me it is a HARD thing to do

Sigh I still have a lot of scars from the primary days, as I know many of you guys do, I really hoped it would all be over.

[madfloridian]

12. No, to be quite blunt....it started last year.

We all know it did. We had to learn to defend ourselves against an onslaught of "this thread needs some luvin" stuff.

No, I won't explain, but I will stand for my right to post about Dean and his DFA group.

He is running for chair of DNC, maybe....he has an active group with about half a million who support candidates. He works with those supporters through DFA as its honorary chair.

It really would not matter what we did. Unless Skinner tells us to stop I will post non-attacking threads.

I believe the DLC has lead us into real danger....I think it was done to allow corporations to take over. I will NOT be silent on this.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. you clearly were not here during the primaries

[Julien Sorel]

15. The five stages of grief.

1) Denial, shock and Isolation

2) Anger

3) Bargaining

4) Depression

5) Acceptance

[MuseRider]

16. You mean there are

going to be 3 more stages? Noooooo.

[Julien Sorel]

18. But they aren't so disagreeable as the anger stage.

Besides, sometimes people skip some of the stages.

[Forkboy]

20. And for the OP

3) Bargaining

[Cheswick2.0]

49. look in the mirror Juls... you're projecting

again

[crispini]

19. The Left has to learn to unite

otherwise the Right will continue to eat our lunch.

I don't care HOW.

I don't care WHO.

I don't care WHY.

We just need to learn that we all have more in common with each other than we do with the righties. In other words, "Can't we all just get aloooooooooooong?"

see also: Lakoff, George.

Thank you.

[ohioan]

22. Whoop! There it is!

[Cheswick2.0]

34. That's up to you

We are tired of losing. If you are too then join us and we will all get along fine. If you are going to plead the case of the DLC appeasement wing of the party and urge us to move right.... no chance in hell we can get along.
DFA has a mission. We are going to take back the party for politicians with vision and convictions... socially liberal, fiscally moderate. That's the plan. Pandering to the right will not be tolerated anymore.

[Quixote1818]

38. We just ran a Massachusetts Liberal who was to the left of Dean???

I don't know what you are talking about? Do you want us to run Dennis Kucinich next time as he was the only candidate who was to the left of Kerry. I say we go back to the center like we were with Clinton and Kennedy. It's a winning formula that we know workes unlike this unproven fairytail of running someone 75% of the country disagrees with. For God's sake, think!

Think about it! If a good chunk of DU people think we should go to the middle then imagine what the rest of the world thinks. This site is as Progressive as it gets. You want to go to the left of 1/2 of the DU croud? Boy would that be a huge mistake!

[Guaranteed]

42. We ran a man without a clear message or vision.

In short, he lacked leadership. Which is what we were saying over and over and over during the primaries.

Then he lost. And it was through no in-party backstabbing, like Dean got.

Now it's Dean's turn.

[Cheswick2.0]

46. Kerry is no liberal anymore

so please don't try to sell me the idea that we just had a campaign about liberalism.

You have no idea what you are talking about on this subject. Your formula has been losing since at least 1980.
For the 1000th time...the issue is not about right an left, it is about right and wrong. It is about having real convictions about what is right. It is about talking to people about what you already agree on, not pandering to their biggest ignorances.

Forget it if you think I am going to listen to ANYONE who doesn't understand those very simple ideas. If you are a member of the DLC and this is some kind of plea for me to think your organization has NAYTHING of value to add to my party anymore....forget it. The DLC did not help Clinton win. They sure are sitting on their asses taking credit though.

[CTLawGuy]

51. we ran him

because he served in Vietnam and voted for the Iraq war, not exactly because he is "liberal", but rather because, like the Republicans in 1996, we hated the incumbent so much and we wanted the safest, most inoffensive candidate possible.

The problem is Kerry, like Dole, was not so safe.

[Rhiannon12866]

40. This is a very dangerous post. But I admire you for making it

Though I have liked what Dean has had to say, he was not my first choice. My candidate was Dennis Kucinich, so I guess I have learned to take my lumps. But I am realistic and supported Kerry-Edwards with all the enthusiasm I could muster. I listened to what they had to say and honestly felt that they were speaking for me and that they were our dream ticket.

I still believe that this election was stolen, if you read Greg Palast, but also agree with you. Howard Dean is the most obvious choice for Democratic chair. He has the support and a wealth of supporters who he can bring in. It makes no sense to me that they would choose anybody else, if Dean wants the job. I still have no idea what Tom Vilsack is all about, except that he was a graduate of my college, which doesn't tell me much about him.

But I most agree with your latter point, and this is something that we Democrats have to agree on. They won't always pick your guy. They didn't pick mine; they didn't pick yours. But you have to admit that who they did choose is worlds better than the alternative.

Yes, we have to stick together. That's the only way that we will win. Maybe the fact that we haven't is the problem.:shrug:

[RogueTrooper]

43. Goodness

stop being so precious.

[JNelson6563]

44. Most offensive olive branch ever

I gather your job doesn't have a whole lot of people skill requirements.

Julie

[salin]

45. poster must not have been around in the primaries

noted all of the conversations before the elections - including the Dean enthusiasts coming around not just to support Kerry, but to actively work for his election. Just more fun to throw malotov cocktails, I guess...

[Cheswick2.0]

47. Thanks Salin

[Cheswick2.0]

48. I thought about this thread last night after I left it......

This thread is incredibly offensive and totally misses the point which frankly, is no surprise.

This is more of the same pathetic attack that we were treated to during the primaries.

When I have something to say about a candidate I say it. I don't have to single out the supporters of a specific candidate and accuse them of being a cult or being the source of trouble on DU. That is intentionally divisive behavior. Congratulations, you have caused yet more division here.

To those chimming in with comments about Dean supporters being a cult etc.... let me give you a collective thumbs up... real bunch of whining losers you are.

What is it exactly that pisses you off so bad... the fact that we're much more likely than you to have given full time passion and effort into getting Kerry elected? The fact that many of us have been part of organizing or encouraging DFA, to carry on the vision and ideas of our candidate because we believe change is necessary to keep this party and this country on the right track?.......while your candidate have gone off to cash in on phony wars on concepts or disapeared back into the congress? The fact that we are talking about change and that is really really scary? The fact that we poured millions of dollars into campaigns for candidates all over the country who talked about the same ideas as our candidate and lots of them won and this is a movement and you chose not to be included because you would rather cater to the conventional wisdom of a party machine that keeps losing over and over and over and over?

Now many of you are blaming Kerry for losing because he is too liberal..LO freaking L.. way to stab his supporters in the back. His most loyal must have been wondering and praying just as I was that he would govern to the left of where he was running. He became so centrist over the last few years I did not recognise him any longer. Yet he got branded as a liberal anyway. He might as well have run as one, prouldy, it couldn't have hurt. It might have helped. Instead we got protestations about not redistributing wealth, how he would have a kinder and gentler PNAC and perhaps chose James Baker for a position in his administration.

I feel sorry for Kerry. In the future, candidates like Kerry will be able to run as who they are in the party because DFA and partner organizations are going to show them that the centrist DLC conventional "wisdom" folks can be ignored and rendered powerless over who gets nominated.

But once again since some of you don't seem to get it at all. Making arguments about who is right and who is left is a silly waste of time. We know where Dean is liberal and we know where he is centrist and all the mischaraterizations in the world are not going to change that. The argument is not about right and left.. it is about convictions, authenticity, having same and defending those ideals NOT PANDERING. We are not moving right on gun laws or abortion as Warner says we should. If I wanted to vote for republicans I would join their party. So Mark Warner can kiss my liberal/populist ass.

Is this a struggle for the soul of the party..you betcha. Relax it will all get better when you finally realize what a relief it is to be out from under the corporate big money control that our current batch of "leaders" have forced on us.

Okay here is a clue for you.... Kathleen McKinney won in a red state. Tom Dashael lost in a red state. What is the difference? She has strong convictions which she stands on and doesn't pander. He has DLC convictions about centrism, loves corporate money and stands for scratching his head wondering why the republicans were so mean even after he pandered and pandered and pandered to them with his appeasment politics.

Ps.... Clinton won on personal charm and Universal Healthcare...not because he ran as a centrist (he didn't) or any strategy from the DLC. So those of you here who are desperately trying to retain relevancy for current DLC theory with-in the party.. get back into your trojan horse and ride back to the conservative think tank you came from.

[Malikshah]

50. Hmmm...methinks the Don doth protest too much

Sorry-- the singling out of Dean supporters is proof positive that this message is either flamebait or an attempt to marginalize Dean supporters yet again.

Dean and his supporters were pilloried throughout the primary process and beyond. Made to bear the burden of all that was wrong with the process.

The point is that Dean supporters are just that-- supporters. I, like any other supporter of a candidate, want to show the best of my candidate, and for that I was treated like a five-year old.

And now -- the Rodney King treatment? Sorry-- doesn't wash. Disingenous at best.

I'm fine with whoever the party chooses--but until that time--I will fight for the candidate I feel is best--and focus on the issues of said candidate.

When attacked (myself--not my candidate) I will fight back.

It's been ten years+ since Rodney King and where has it gotten us?

[Q]

52. You're disregarding the fact that conservative dems are actively...

...trying to keep anyone to the left of them from gaining any kind of power within the party. You ask us to embrace them when they want us to simply leave or shut up.

- While I'm not necessarily a Dean supporter...I recognize the fact that the RWing of the Dem party is trying to silence him and anyone like him that won't bow to their unDemocratic agenda.

- Conservatives or 'new' Dems are parasites on the party. They plan to suck all the life out of the left and make it possible for the Right to achieve all their goals.

- In the end result...for us to 'embrace' the RWing of the Dem party is to give up everything we believe in. We can't embrace that in which we don't believe.

[unfrigginreal]

53. Ahh, another flamebait thread calling out Dean supporters

Are Dean supporters the only group that has to put up with these threads ? Is it due to a bending over backwards mentality in the name of fairness? This should have been locked long ago.

[Moderator]

54. locking

flamebait