SOA Protesters Confront General Clark in Wisconsin

[Hoppin_Mad]

"Joel of Superior, WI writes: --

(Posted Jan 17) Jan.13th -The good general breezed through Superior, WI on Saturday. The rally was hastily organized, so we had to act rather fast.

Though we came up with an extensive list of (issues we were concerned about) we decided to keep our protest focused on his support of the SOA.

About 500 people showed up to hear him, and we leafletted nearly all of them. It was easy! At least half of the crowd knew about the SOA already and most of them were shocked to learn about their candidate's support for the school. Campaign organizers did everything they could to keep us from challenging Clark (including lining up in front of our banner and body-checking me to prevent me from shaking his hand!), but three people did get to confront him face-to-face.

Jan of the local Grandmas for Peace was the first person to meet Clark when he arrived from the airport. He put his arm around her shoulder - thinking, I suppose, that the old lady would be a good photo op. She proceeded to grill him about his support for torture-training. He told her that the school had been reformed. She suggested that he was delusional. "

-snip-

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=163

Keep up the good work folks ! When The General comes here to Southern California, I will be there protesting as well !

More info can be found here

http://www.soaw.org/new/

http://www.soawne.org

[KittyWampus]

1. Dont' Forget Your "Baby Killer" Sign & Bongos!

[ulysses]

4. do I detect a note

of sarcasm?

[KittyWampus]

6. Hard To Take The Left's Version Of "Partial Birth Abortion" Opposition

seriously.

Considering there are outside observers involved and no evidence to back up these people's claims.

[depakid]

8. that's insulting considering the long history of Actual genocide

perpetrated by graduates of this abhorrant institution- all part and parcel to US corporate hegemony. These protesters raise valid concerns, given Clark's recent statements- and protests he's going to get if he shows up in Seattle or Portland. That I can unfortunately guarantee.

Frankly, his statements rather shocked me, considering that he's had something of an epiphany about the right wing agenda since the 1980's. It would have been much more politically astute, not to mention morally courageous, to simply admit as much as we already damn well know as fact.

[Hoppin_Mad]

10. Joe Scarborough = "The Left" ?

(2001) 91 representatives have now signed on to co-sponsor HR 1810, a bill to close the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation ("WHISC" - successor to School of the Americas). 

     Please contact your Representative now. If they are a cosponsor, thank them for their support and ask them to actively work for the bill’s passage. If not, urge them to call Cindy Buhl in Rep. McGovern’s office or John Hendricks in Rep. Scarborough's office to sign on as a co-sponsor of HR 1810.

    The bill was introduced on May 10, 2001, by Representatives Jim McGovern (D-MA), Joe Scarborough (R-FL), Joe Moakley (D-MA), Connie Morella (R-MD), Christopher Shays (R-CT), and Lane Evans (D-IL).  HR 1810 is modeled after last year's Moakley / Scarborough / McGovern / Campbell amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill. It calls for the closure of the school and the establishment of a joint congressional task force to assess U.S. training of Latin American military.   

[KittyWampus]

18. And They Presented What Evidence That The New School Had

done something improper?

[ulysses]

24. it's a nice trick

to associate SOA protestors with abortion protestors.

:puke:

[KittyWampus]

29. The Analogy Is EXACT. Manipulating People Over Emotionally Laden Issues

that are based on things not even existant in Reality.

THE SOA NO LONGER EXISTS
IT WAS REOPENED
IT IS MONITORED BY OUTSIDE AGENCIES

And just as the atrocities were committed 20+ years ago by a tiny minority of graduates so late term abortions don't happen except in rare cases.

You are holding up a BOOGIEMAN.

[Hoppin_Mad]

36. 20 Years ago, eh ? LOL

Jan 22, 2000

WASHINGTON, DC – SOA-trained Guatemalan Col. Byron Disrael Lima Estrada was arrested, ( LATER CONVICTED ) along with his son, January 21 for the 1998 murder of Roman Catholic Bishop Juan Gerardi. According to a declassified US Defense Intelligence Agency biographic sketch, Lima Estrada took Military Police training at the US Army School of the Americas (SOA) now located at Ft. Benning, GA. Lima Estrada went on to head the infamous D-2 (G-2) Military Intelligence agency at the height of the genocide campaign in Guatemala's civil war.

Bishop Gerardi was bludgeoned to death in his home two days after he released a human rights report that implicated the D-2 in human rights atrocities committed during the war. The report, "Guatemala: Never Again," based on thousands of testimonies collected by the archbishop's office, provided a chilling catalog of the mechanisms of violence. In a chapter titled "D-2: The Very Name of Fear," the report severely criticizes the military intelligence agency headed by Lima Estrada from 1983-85. It cited the D-2 for playing a "central role in the conduct of military operations, in massacres, extra-judicial executions, forced disappearances and torture."

http://www.peacehost.net/soaw-w/gerardi.html

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

52. How dare you !

You know NOTHING about the reasons for my stance and what I know. I LIVED in Central America during the 1980's and a friend of mine was KILLED by a Guatemalan soldier who was a CIA asset.

Michael Devine - Look it up

US Hegemony in Latin America is one of the most important issues in my life.

I suggest YOU do some research

-edit spelling-

[KittyWampus]

102. Let Me Repost My Message. When Did He Graduate From SOA?

Why didn't you just answer the question?

Could it be that you can't answer and that if you did it would negate your argument?

Rather than pull information off of some Anti-Military website why not do some research that would be relevant.

Like WHEN was that soldier in the SOA.

If it was in the 1980's then his actions have NOTHING to do with General Clark and everything to do with Reagan's being cozy with dictators in Central & South Amercia.

And don't get all sanctimonious, I know just as much about Guatemala and Montt. And it is NOW 2004 and NOT 1980.

Why presume you are ANY less of an authority? You present NO proof other than old outdated information that has NO RELEVANCE To the current incarnation of the SOA and General Clark.

Again, taking emotionally laden Issues to pursue an agenda is the same tactics the Far Right uses when they protest Partial Birth Abortion.

It is a disgusting tactic.

If you have a problem with what went on in the Americas in the 1980's that has NOTHING TO DO WITH CLARK.

[depakid]

40. It's this kind of thinking that got Clark in hot water in the 1st place

it wasn't just a tiny proportion of graduates committing the most horrific acts of torture and genocide in the western hemisphere during the 20th century, it was a whole lot of them over many years following the American post World War II agenda of protecting corporate interests by puposefully shoring up dictatorships through training mehods design specifically to suppress the civilian population. In essense, the school was designed to transform the nature of the Central American military away from hemispheric defense and democracy toward brutality and totalitarianism.

In many people's minds, there's no defense for that, and the longer it goes unacknowledged, the longer the issue will fester- sort of like what happened to Dean with his Confederate flag remarks.

[KittyWampus]

47. You Are Just Wrong. Total Graduates Are About 60,000

Again, since there's no evidence of wrong doing NOW or recently...

This is just manipulating people using an emotionally laden issue FROM THE PAST.

SOA NO LONGER EXISTS. A small number of people are protesting to either agitate or because they are misinformed.

JUST LIKE partial birth abortion opponents.

Present them with facts and they will NOT LISTEN.

[Hoppin_Mad]

78. The numbers killed by SOA Grads and their Cohorts is 100's of 1000's -nt-

[depakid]

80. I hope General Clark shows more sense

than some of his supporters on this issue, because it's a very divisive one (as well it should be) and it's going to pose continuing problems for him if he truly seeks to unite the party or has any hope of winning over Greens and progressive independents.

Even if- for the sake of argument- you were right (which you're not) Clark's recent statements were at their very best extremely insensitive and glossed over a horribly period in American history- one that we should all be extremely ashamed of. He needs to deal with that- not with banalities, but in no uncertain terms.

[ulysses]

121. "things not even existant in Reality"

The descendants of the victims at El Mozote - those that survived, anyway - might take issue with your version of reality.

Smooth segue here into the abortion thing, btw.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Let's hope so. The SOA has trained baby killers.

And, all of the Dem candidates should vow to close it upon election. How in the hell is a Pentagon run school be able to teach anything about democracy? Something they are barely able to give lip service to.

[KittyWampus]

33. Brilliant... Just Like The Viet Nam Veterans Were Baby Killers Right?

because anyone who has anything to do with the Military is evil, Right?

And which is the ONE Candidate who has spoken of cutting the Pentagon Budget and has an ACTUAL chance of getting elected? Clark

But it's so much more fun to hold onto phantoms and stereotypes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Are you denying that the American military did kill babies

in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and numerous other places including Iraq and Afghanistan? Not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilians who were not children? I just read of an "incident" in Afghanistan yesterday in which children were killed by American helicopters. I assume the choppers were driven by American pilots and the guns manned by American GI's. It seems the "phantoms and stereotypes" have some validity.

As for Clark cutting the Pentagon budget. Fine. I'm all for it. I hope that included in the cuts will be the SOA.

[KittyWampus]

50. Sure... Didn't You Know That The US Military TEACHES Baby Killing?

They sanction it.... it's part of the training manual.

Or maybe it's a few disturbed INDIVIDUALS reacting out of fear and chaos.

Just like maybe the tiny fraction of SOA graduates were acting out of their own twisted sense of power were not acting on instructions gotten somewheres in North America?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. As a matter of fact, they do.

Ever heard of "free fire zones"? Or, carpet bombing? Or do you think that all those hundreds of thousands civilians died of heart attacks in Vietnam and elsewhere? The US military teaches the troops to shoot on command. Just like every other military. Do you think that the guys piloting the B-52's in Vietnam spent much time considering what was under the "coordinates" they were ordered to bomb?

As anyone who has been through boot camp well knows the military does, in fact, teaches "baby killing". Do they say, "We want you to go and kill babies." No. Instead, they make a point of dehumanizing the people by referring to them as "targets", "commies", "gooks", "ragheads",
"the enemy" etc that will allow the soldier to kill without regard to what he's actually doing. It even works, in the short term.

The results are the same whether you refer to them as "babies" or "collateral damage."

The "tiny fraction" of SOA that you refer to have been, and continue to, prop up corrupt governments throughout Latin America.

[Tesha]

2. It's a real issue and it can't be laughed away.

It will alienate the Anti-War Left from Clark and if
necessary, it will be used by the Republicans as a
wedge between fellow Democrats.

Tesha

[KittyWampus]

17. Seems Like A Few Leftist Agitators Are Doing This Already

And most don't give a crap about the victims from 20+ years ago.

The rest are mostly misinformed people who need some outlet where they can vent their emotions and feel "Righteous".

1. The Human Rights Abusers were a tiny minority of its graduates
2. The Atrocities happened 20+ years ago under Reagan
3. The SOA was reformed & reopened
4. It's Current incarnation has outside agencies monitoring it
5. There's no proof of anything improper going on in the last decade or so

[ulysses]

21. really?

And most don't give a crap about the victims from 20+ years ago.


Perhaps you didn't read the El Mozote threads from a few days ago.

Again, the proof of the institution's reformation lies with the SOA's supporters, not its critics.

[KittyWampus]

25. Time To Post Another Long List Of Names Of The Dead

Just like Partial Birth Abortion protestors like to carry sign depicting the dismembered fetuses.

Something that happened 20+ years ago has nothing to do with Clark.

Where does YOUR candidate stand?

[Hoppin_Mad]

38. Is 1998 20 years ago ? -nt-

[KittyWampus]

53. When Did The Perpetrator Graduate SOA? 1980? Under Reagan?

Well before Clark's time?

It's be nice if people accusing Clark of sanctioning this shit did some real research instead of reguritating info from Anti-Military sites.

[Hoppin_Mad]

70. They're killing up to this very day - THAT'S what Clark won't admit -nt-

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

83. Here's just one PROVEN lie by Clark about the SOA

He ( Clark) also stated, "We're teaching police procedures and human rights . . . we don't teach torture . . . (we've) never taught torture."

-----------


MAJOR JOE BLAIR (RET.): I have personal knowledge that the School of the Americas, while I was there for three years, taught two intelligence interrogation courses, which taught the U.S. Army position that it was appropriate to use physical abuse when interrogating anyone in their country, to also use false imprisonment, false arrest, and kidnapping of family members.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec99/sotamericas_9-21.html


15 January l998

FROM: Major Joseph A. Blair, U.S. Army Retired--former instructor at the United U.S. Army School of Americas


To: President Clinton


4. As a graduate of Marquette University (Jesuit) class of l968 and St. Ignatius College Prep (Jesuit) in Chicago l964 and Vietnam veteran who served with William Colby in Vietnam as an administrative assistant in l971, and who also specialized in Central American military affairs for l2 years as a Latin American U.S. Army Foreign Area Specialist, I can assure you that I have first hand professional experiences and knowledge about the human rights violations the Latin American officer graduates of the U.S. Army School of the Americas committed throughout the l970s and l980s. You demonstrated your knowledge of the same when you released the White House Intelligence Oversight Board findings in l996 which reported to the American public that the U.S. Army School of the Americas condoned teaching Latin American officers false imprisonment, physical abuse, extortion, false arrest, inhumane interrogation techniques normal people call torture, and other U.S. Army infantry killer skills which the Latin American armies have only used in their histories to oppress their own citizens. They have never been our military allies in our two world wars, Korea, or Vietnam, yet you continue to train them. We should de-emphasize Latin American army training and place more emphasis on promoting civilian control of the emerging democracies in Latin America. You also know that Latin American armies operate independently of their elected presidents and are not subjected to their national courts. We must show Latin America that our form of representative government and federalism is the only form of government which will serve the needs of the people in our hemisphere! Let's not show them that our Army acts the same way their's do!

http://www.jaguar-sun.com/chiapas/soa2.html

[Jackson Smith]

85. Sounds like a US Army position.

Looks like nothing more than the US Army teaching what they are already taught. Do you hate the whole US Army too? Wait, don't answer that one.

[Hoppin_Mad]

91. Huh ?

"Looks like nothing more than the US Army teaching what they are already taught. "

What does that mean ?

[Jackson Smith]

93. Did you actually read your post?

"""while I was there for three years, taught two intelligence interrogation courses, which taught the U.S. Army position....."""

[Hoppin_Mad]

95. But Clark DENIES the US Miltary ever even taught torture ! -nt-

[Jackson Smith]

100. The writer of the article calls it "torture"

Doesn't mean that's actually what it is.

[Hoppin_Mad]

101. The writer is an Army Major who TAUGHT there !

Why would you, someone who has NO first hand knowledge of what went on, contradict him ?

Odd.

[ulysses]

115. your dismissive attitude toward that list

speaks volumes.

And again with the abortion protesters analogy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Count me in. That's what "leftist agitators" are for.

"The atrocities happened 20+ years ago."

You must be ignoring the news from Guatamala, Peru, Columbia, etc. Not from 20 years ago, but from within the last year.

The SOA in it's present incarnation is still teaching troops from some, if not all of those countries, who are still perpetuating the oligarchies by use of torture, murder, and imprisonment.

The idea that the SOA is teaching democracy is laughable on the face of it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

3. Good for the Grandma!

Reformed? Come on...what the hell does that mean? Does he then admit that the SOA was an instrument of training South Americans to be fascist dictators?

[KittyWampus]

5. And The Proof It Has NOT REFORMED Is Non-Existant

But this is the Left's version of protesting Partial Birth Abortion.

[Hoppin_Mad]

7. Republicans tried to close it in 2001

The bill was written by Republican Joe 'MSNBC' Scarborough ( along with one other Repub and 2 Dems )

That's AFTER it was supposedly 'reformed"

[Terwilliger]

14. who cares if its reformed?

IS THERE NO ACCOUNTABILITY ANYMORE??

[ulysses]

15. "The Proof It Has NOT REFORMED Is Non-Existant"

As is, evidently, the proof that it has. Frankly, the burden rests with SOA supporters.

[reprehensor]

9. Bumper Sticker War.

"This is what I saw today:

Clark people putting their bumper stickers on cars with Dean stickers - literally covering up the entire Dean sticker. And no, I've yet to see _any_ other campaign do this.

Clark people holding signs in front of Kerry people (I personally think Kerry's campaign is pathetic) in a rude and hostile manner.

Clark people making extremely rude and snide remarks about Kucinich supporters who showed up outside and were dancing around to a drum beat. This was one of more revealing things I watched. I could not believe the level of arrogance, the amount of high school style pettiness that people were expressing. In many ways, it looked exactly to me what I saw when Gore was running in '00."

http://www.birddogger.org/blog.php?id=29

What do we need Republicans for when Democrats can't even be civil to each other?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. Read that.

[KittyWampus]

13. Thanks, You've Just Discredited This "Birddogger" Website For Us

Because his account reads like the bullshit it is.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

72. b.s. - We are told on the Clark Campaign to keep it postive - unlike the

Dean campaign. I don't believe this for a minute.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. This is what I think

Maybe there is still a real issue here. Maybe more harm than good is STILL coming from that School. Then again, maybe not. Some changes were made. Some sensible things are done there. The American military is relatively well behaved by World Standards, and most of South America has had huge trouble with their military for centuries now. It might be a net gain for some of those people to study here. I really don't know. Honest I don't.

But promoting the S.O.A. is not a major platform plank of Clark's campaign. Other than having worked to reform it in the past, many "good Democrats", including others of our current candidates, weren't making a very big deal out of the current S.O.A. until this Election campaign, nor did Clinton when he was in office.

Maybe they should have. Maybe they still should. Leonard Peltier deserves a pardon too while we are at it, and no one is talking about that either. No candidate, or elected official, can give the highest priority to every specific potential evil. There are way too many, and if anyone had enough influence to do something positive about each and every one of them, they would probably end up assassinated.

I think it is a GOOD thing this emerged as an issue during this campaign. It should be looked at again, and the campaign is focusing attention on it. Clark said if proof is uncovered that the S.O.A. is still promoting human rights violations, he will shut it down. That sounds about right to me. If the Democratic Party defeats Bush in November, plenty of good people will be in a much better position to look closer at matters like this. I hope they do. Now back to our regularly scheduled Election.

[dkf]

16. C'mon the SOA is a black eye for the US

Clark should not be supporting this in any way.

Dean should dump it too.

The fact that Joe Scarborough, of all people, said to shut it down says to me that it needs to be closed.

[KittyWampus]

20. It Now Has Outside Agencies Monitoring It

So basically this is just a bunch of extremists agitating for their own twisted agenda just like the Partial Birth Abortion Protestors... replete with graphic signs and lists of those killed over 20+ years ago.

[ulysses]

22. are you interested in replying to criticism

or are you just here to vent?

[Terwilliger]

28. And Saddam's history is irrelevant to current events

yeah, I've heard all that before

Tell me, crying...what was the original purpose of the SOA that Clark lauds when these training manuals for dictators were openly part of the curriculum?

So Clark supports American imperialism? Is this a reason I'm supposed to like the guy?

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. My guess is you are right

And that there is also a valid need for some institution to continue most of what does in fact go on there. C'mon, there are too many decent thinking people in this country who would have created a non ending holy stink if the S.O.A. was primarily a torture college. Let's elect a Democrat, and then apply the needed pressure to make sure it is dealt with in a satisfactory manner. Neither Clark nor Dean would lose my vote over this so long as they aren't personally advocating American terror, (which they aren't) and agree to allow whatever inspection is needed to get to the bottom of it. It is fine with me if one or more of our candidates feel convinced enough of the facts to abolish S.O.A. immediately, but that by itself doesn't swing my vote.

[funky_bug]

35. What part of

"I'll shut it down" are you missing? Clark said if anyone (and don't tell me that reporters can't find it, please) can show him proof that the school is CURRENTLY doing anything to promote violence and human rights violations, he'll shut it down. That sounds reasonable to me.

Look, if the media can dig up old tapes of Dean, voting records (or lackthereof) for Clark, and dirt on all our candidates, they can certainly infiltrate the Western Hemisphere Institute (there is no more "SOA") and show us the money.

[Hoppin_Mad]

37. You're advocating the media "infiltrate' a US Miltary Base ? !

Pretty damn RADICAL ! I like your style ! :-)

[funky_bug]

61. oooooookay

Maybe "infiltrate" was the wrong word... but I believe the invitations to observe are pointless... when I know my momma is coming to visit, I sure as hell make sure I got my house in order first.

[LandOLincoln]

43. But you see...

for one of our candidates to have the power to shut the SOA down, first they have to be nominated and then elected president.

Turning the full fury of the far left on Wesley Clark, arguably the most electable candidate as well as the president who would be in the best position to shut it down, by virtue of his 4 stars and his (admittedly brief) tenure as SouthCom CinC, is to throw the election to the Republicans.

Again.

Just like 2000, just like 1972, and just like 1968. The country survived Nixon. I have my doubts that it will survive a second 4 years of the Little Dictator. Is that really what you want?

[texasmom]

60. A voice of reason..

Thank you.

[Hoppin_Mad]

74. Thanks for your reasoned discussion of this issue, Tom -nt-

[Tom Rinaldo]

87. Your Welcome. Thanks for that acknowledgement on your thread. n/t

[MariaS]

19. NY Post Editorial on SOA

A BUM RAP ON CLARK ... (School of the Americas association
December 27, 2003 | EDITORIAL

December 27, 2003 -- Democratic presidential candidate and retired general Wesley Clark has been slammed - unfairly, in our view - for his relationship with the Army's controversial School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Ga.
Clark fought to keep open the school, whose purpose was to train soldiers from Latin American allies of the United States.

But it was closed in 2000, and later reconstituted as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

(snip)

We can think of any number of reasons why Wesley Clark shouldn't become president.

But his past association with the School of the Americas isn't on the list.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/44195.htm

[Hoppin_Mad]

27. The NY Post is a GOP shilling rag owned by Murdoch of FAUX

You ARE aware of that aren't you ?

[Terwilliger]

31. The Post is pro American imperialism...is Clark???

What makes him a Democrat again? What makes anybody a Democrat?

[bain_sidhe]

58. Um... some of this editorial

is almost as offensive as the insinuation that Clark is some kind of torturer for supporting the SOA...

Perhaps the School of the Americas failed to cure many of its Latin American students of their traditional attitudes toward the suppression of free expression, torture, summary execution, military interference in politics and so forth.

But that is probably because those reprehensible traditional attitudes are so deeply embedded in Latin American military culture.

I mean, could they possibly present a more insulting stereotype of Latin Americans? This editorial would not be my first choice for defending Clark regarding his support for the SOA. Nor my second, third, fourth... well, you get the idea.

Here's my view: Any position of power will attract a certain percentage of sadists. That is, after all, what sadists *want* - to have the power to torture their victims with impunity. In some countries, that's the military. In others, it's a police force (Abner Louima, anyone?), in yet others, it's organized crime syndicates. In still others it's probably organizations we don't even know about.

Cripes. It's no surprise that a certain percentage of graduates of the SOA are, in fact, sadists. Does that mean that the SOA taught them to be sadists, or does it mean that they were already sadists who happened to attend the school?

And, for my next question, how many graduates of the school DIDN'T go on to perpetrate human rights abuses?

That said, yes, I agree with Clark. If evidence shows that the School - or whatever it's called now - is *continuing* to teach torture, it should be shut down.

[ShaneGR]

30. Gasp, a military man supporting a..... school!

I say we keep all those military men dumb.

[dogman]

32. As Clark has said

Since criminals have come out of Harvard Business School does that mean it should be shut down? There are those who would shut churches because of pedophile ministers. As a matter of fact most criminals have attended grade schools, maybe we should abolish education in America. I went through military training and was taught the skills of war yet haven't even struck anyone in anger since my discharge. Do you continue this ridiculous diatribe ad infinitum or do you face the reality that bad people are bad and misuse what they are taught? I trust the General more than misinformed and misguided ideologues.

[depakid]

46. Once again, that's offensive

The SOA isn't Harvard Business School and even making such a comparison is insultingly spurious. This is an institution that actively aided and abetted genocide and subverted democracy throughout Latin America. It represents all of the worst characteristics of American foreign policy and its adherence to corporate profits over principles and close to a hundred thousand innocent lives.

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. Ignore these people.

They know who they are. There is NO answer they can be given that will appease them...other than...The SOA will be closed. Clark has no control over that and THEY know it. After the SOA is closed, these SAME anti-war, anti-Clark, anti-everything America does people, will start on something else. Just ignore them. Their lives are based on ideological stances about "SOMETHING". They are no different than the people from the Christian Coaltion...just a different cause. Nothing will make them stop, so just ignore them. Look how long the Christian Coalition has been around. These same people will have a new "cause" after/when/if the SOA is closed.

1% of graduates from SOA have committed atrocities and they have had how many graduates? Like Clark said...Do we blame Harvard School for the Enron Scandals? No, we do not. How many people have lost their livelihoods? Their LIFETIME savings? Do these rabid anti-Clark people care about that? NO. They don't give a shit if a man who was about to retire lost $500,000 of his retirement money and now has NOTHING? He will never be able to retire and will probably never be able to find a job. Do they care? No. Misguided ideologues is too nice a phrase for these "activists."

[depakid]

92. Ignore us at your peril

because many of us are not rabidly anti-Clark people, even though that seems to be the usual horse that's trotted out when your candidate's positions or statements come under scrutiny- and in this case very valid scrutiny. Moreover, alluding to people who know MUCH more than you about the long and sordid history of this institution and the policies it was designed to promote -as being no different from the Christian Coalition (many of whose members have supported the SOA and its mission) is not only unproductive, but more than a little ironic.

What's even more ironic is that this would hardly even have been a blip on the radar screen had Clark not come out with the party line that so many are now parroting like good soldiers, without a second thought. I would bet most people (including me) would be happy if General Clark simply gave an honest reckoning of the what's gone on at the SOA and roundly condemned US policies in Latin America that, whther under the guise of corporate profit or misguided anti-communism, led to atrocities and genocide of the kind he fought against in Kosovo. And the sooner the better- before the issue gets out of hand and alienates even more Greens and independent progressives that he'll need if he's to win the nomination, much less the presidency.

[LandOLincoln]

110. Very good points.

Please let the Clark campaign know your concerns, and I expect the General will address them with his usual candor and forthrightness.

[0rganism]

94. They are not analogous

As far as I know, there is no course at the Harvard Business School that teaches embezzlement and fraud as legitimate practice.

The SOA has been PROVEN to teach torture methods and suppression of dissent in the past. Renaming it has no more impact on course content than moving it to Fort Benning. What we are asking for is proof positive of reform, not rubber-stamp oversight by a handful of congresscritters.

* Publish the training manuals, so we can see for certain that they have changed the curricula.

* Facilitate course visitation by outside observers.

* Make the course in human rights mandatory, rather than an elective.

Because of this school's track record, the burden of proof rests upon it to show that it's changed. Until then, I will side with those who find it a disturbing relic of an unwholesome and outdated policy.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

44. LOL ! Unlike Clark I voted for Dems exclusively since my 1st vote in 1972

nt

[Jackson Smith]

49. Yeah, who cares if Clark could completely re-align our party and...

bring us to a 1980-like dominance, he supported a school I don't like! Of which he had nothing to do with the terrorists you refer to. GO DEEEEANN

[helleborient]

54. The problem - he seems to ignore and not understand a significant

Part of the Democratic Party - those who truly care about U.S. sponsored violence in other nations.

[Jackson Smith]

55. At the same time, the School has produced the opposite of what you say.

Go protest Harvard for producing Ken Lay.

[jonnyblitz]

64. do you have an idea what you are talking about?

just curious.. :eyes:

[Jackson Smith]

68. Yep, do YOU?

What terrorists were "produced" at the school when Clark was appointed there by Clinton?

[in_cog_ni_to]

84. SEE?

You will never get an answer to that question! It does NOT favor their position.

[jonnyblitz]

86. because I didn't come up with a list of "terrorists" names?

oh please. i was referring more to the pathetic Harvard business school analogy which is an INSULT to all of those who have died.

[Jackson Smith]

88. Are you going to answer my question or not?

Didn't think so.

[jonnyblitz]

114. i guess that makes you think you proved your point

because i dont have a list of terrorists from that school from when Clark was appointed. Well even if i did I am sure you still wouldnt believe it. So go ahead and feel smug that you are right. Others of us know better...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

90. That's WAY out of line

I've never voted for a repug in my life - never even considered it - and if I thought he was electable I'd be supporting DK.

Please retract this disgraceful smear.

[ronnykmarshall]

122. and that fellow from 1972 ....

SUPPORTS CLARK!!

Thank you, Senator George McGovern! :loveya:

[corporatewhore]

67. Its not Hoppin_mad its wes clarks goal

Vote republicrat '04

[Jackson Smith]

77. Out of all the candidates, who are Democrats?

Just wondering.

[thebgrkng]

45. Don't you see...

This is why us left-leaning independents love him,

He is principled. He isn't taking the easy route. He isn't going to agree with Democrats when he thinks they are wrong.

The school serves a purpose, he understands that purpose. He knows it has a suspect history. He believes it has been reformed. He says if there is proof it hasn't been reformed he will fix it/shut it down. It is a completely rational position.

-TheBgrKng

[Mattforclark]

66. I love rationality!

We need so much more of it in this country, and in the world as a whole. I hope Clark can spread some of it around, because it is a wonderful thing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Thank You for TRYING

to explain Clark's position, but they don't CARE! Their MAIN objective is to DESTROY him so he won't be elected. They want THEIR guy elected so this bullshit will be repeated and repeated and repeated, until they think Clark is out of the race. Then it will stop. You are NOT dealing with RATIONAL people here.

[dkf]

48. So Clark supporters...do you really think few Americans know what

the SOA is?

When I posted about this earlier you all thought that people have no clue what the SOA was involved in.

This guy says 1/2 of the people there knew what the upset over the SOA was about.

I say this is a huge black mark for Clark and he should drop his support.

If you say that it will not be a problem for him then I guess you would be okay if someone leafletted all the people listening to him with info on the SOA huh?

[thebgrkng]

57. That all depends...

There are usually multiple sides to the story (notice the people arguing here with you) If both sides could sit down and write it together then im sure there would be no problem.

Is that the type of leaflet you had in mind?

[returnable]

65. I think Kucinich and Gephardt...

...are the only two candidates to actually protest the SOA.

If this issue is really a big concern for anyone, they should seriously look at where their candidate stands.

You can't limit the discussion to Clark alone.

[BootinUp]

69. I didn't know what it was till

I joined DU and people were already attacking Clark on this back in September/October. Does that make me a freeper?

[democratreformed]

71. The only thing I can say is

that I had never heard about the SOA until I read about it on here.

[funky_bug]

76. Clark supporter says go ahead and leaflett

(like that hasn't been done already)

So if you're looking for a supporter's permission, you've got it... as long as you make sure to include his statement saying "If you show me any violations, I'll shut it down." (paraphrased)

The burden of proof is on the protestors. Show us something more recent than 20 years ago, and then we'll talk about what he's going to do tomorrow.

[Hoppin_Mad]

103. Why do you people keep saying TWENTY years ?

The US Military was PROVEN to be teaching torture up until AT LEAST 1991.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/archive/news/dodmans.htm

[helleborient]

51. SOA protests are a significant part of the Columbus, GA economy...

And a "rite of passage" for a number of left-wing college students.

People don't know about this?

Yeah, right.

And those of us who oppose the SOA will make sure even more know about Wesley Clark's support of it.

[KittyWampus]

56. Just Like Protesting Abortion Is A HUGE REVENUE RAISER For Wingnuts

Congratulations on tacitly admitting the similarity.

[funkyflathead]

62. Yeah that is how rightist groups get donations

When they plead they need them to protest abortion clinics.

[corporatewhore]

63. anti choice rwingnuts want to take away freedom just like the SOA

takes the rights and freedoms to organize for latin american workers Keep it Real !!!

[Turkw]

98. I now understand where the "Blame America" label came from

The more and more I learn about the whole "controversy" the more I am convinced that it is a problem that originates at the local country, not at the SOA.

Costa Rica's SOA graduates don't have a history of human rights violations because of the culture and government of Costa Rica. Not because of the SOA, and the opposite is also true.

Clark favors strengthening the vetting process so that fewer people enter who should not get any kind of support or aid.

Here is his statement on the SOA:

"I strongly condemn human rights abuses of any kind. Throughout my career, I have fought to protect the fundamental rights of all people and to promote democratic values that empower people to prevent abuses of power and combat them when they occur.

It is unacceptable that some who passed through the School of the Americas (now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) committed human rights abuses. Those that did should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - as should all who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. In order to prevent such abuses from happening in the future, we must promote a policy of engagement and education with friends and allies in the region.

I strongly support the reforms that have been implemented at WHISC and encourage careful vetting of students. I strongly support oversight measures that ensure that antidemocratic principles are not taught at the school. Thanks to the work of human rights campaigners and others, WHISC is constantly improving the way it teaches the Army's values of respect for human rights, for civil institutions, and for dissent."

Frankly the longer this debate rages here at DU, the more the anti-military bias comes out. This is a LOOSER in the general election.

But hey, what's your answer to stop the people who want to harm us?

Here is part of Clark's

"International cooperation will also allow us to share the burden in Iraq, reinvigorate efforts to locate and destroy Al Qaeda leadership, and secure Afghanistan's borders. In the long run, these efforts will help secularize Afghanistan and create democratic institutions there.

Working together, we can get at some of the roots of terrorism: the extreme Wahhabist ideology and funding from Saudi Arabia; and the impoverished, class-ridden, corrupt society of Pakistan and its madrassas. Winning the war against terrorism also requires far-reaching reforms in the Middle East, including more pragmatic education, broader economic development, and wider political participation. It also means working toward a just and comprehensive settlement between Israel and the Palestinians.

There are a number of other steps that will be required for a broad based strategy to defeat Al Qaeda, including homeland security, better use of international institutions, and more focused use of our military resources. I will address these topics in the coming weeks.

As president, I will employ every weapon in the US arsenal to beat back the forces of terrorism. But the weapons of our country must not be limited to our awesome military capabilities. They must involve the web of international relationships we have built over generations. Those friendships are the reason that for most of its history, America has been the most admired nation in the world. We must do everything in our power to maintain that."

[Hoppin_Mad]

99. Costa Rica disolved its army in 1948 -eom-

edit date

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

81. What a class act that campaign is.....

n/t

[incapsulated]

89. Do your worst

Knock yourself out. Leaflet NH. I'm not afraid.

I've known about the SOA since the eighties, when the actual shit was going on at that school. I also know that there have been no claims of "torture classes" and evil going on there under Clark's term, nor is the school in it's original form even existant.

Clark's stance is acceptable to me, and I suspect it will be acceptable to the majority who do not have an axe to grind; proove miscounduct, and I'll shut it down.

Other than the crimes of graduates from the Regan years, show me that current students are being taught anything outrageous, or that their conduct when they return is statistacally any greater than those who did not attend.

There are real civil rights problems right here in the US that these so-called leftists could be involved in. It's not as exotic and retro as Latin America, just oridinary voting rights being protected for Americans of color and the like. But going after a Democratic candidate with a good chance against Bush is so much more productive.

[mikehiggins]

104. While you heroes are out there pelting Clark

maybe you could answer me one thing? How come the right wing wanted the school shut down when Clinton was president, and yet it is still open under our Great Leader, George Bush?

When Clark wins the nomination, are you guys gonna keep it up? Are you going to follow the Democratic candidate around the country attacking him on SOA?

Who do you actually work for? The people or your egos?

The world needs regime change in Washington.

The train is leaving the station.

You can get on board if you'd like, but you won't stop it.

[quaker bill]

107. You do not understand my friend

People have put their lives, property, and physical safety on the line to oppose this operation.

They will not step aside now.

[KittyWampus]

109. Just Like Anti-Abortion Protestors

and just as extreme.

[mikehiggins]

111. Well, how about this?

Instead of stalking Clark all across the United States (if he is the nominee) why not circulate a petition among all of the people who want the school shut down and make a presentation of the petition at the Democratic convention on prime time, in front of the world?

I know it isn't as ego-satisfying and dramatic as chanting slogans at rallies and disrupting public meetings, but it does put pressure on any candidate in one area he is most concerned with, presenting himself as a man of the people, doing their will.

If thousands, or hundreds of thousands or even a million or so folks present their grievances openly and in public, minus perhaps the drama and street theatre and bladders of pig blood, how can any Democratic candidate refuse?

You know they cannot and will not defy an open, organised and transparent expression of the will of the people.

[quaker bill]

105. Friends of mine have nearly been killed

by graduates of SOA while doing relief work for war orphans in Central America. They were lucky enough not to be in the building when it exploded. Friends of mine have gone to federal prison for 6 months voluntarily for doing non-violent CD at SOA.

Will they show up to protest a candidate running as a liberal who at the same time supports this school? This is beyond any doubt. They will show up in large and noisy numbers. Once again, they are the type of non-violent activist who will voluntarily go to prison for their convictions.

General Clark would be well advised to rid himself of this albatross. I know the people who will be pointing it out to him on any available occasion. They have been fighting this issue for 20 years and are very unlikely to be disuaded by a bit of glib rhetoric about 'reformation'.

[KittyWampus]

108. It Has Reformed. You Are Fighting Ghosts.

By the way, did the SOA graduates wear badges to identify themselves?

I use the past tense and say DID because the SOA NO LONGER EXISTS.

And "these are the type of activists" who take emotionally laden issues such as abortion and use it as a means of manipulating others.

these are the type of Activitsts who spit on Soldiers coming home from Viet Nam and called them Baby Killers.

If it was the year 1980, these activists MIGHT have a point.

It is now 2004.

TWENTY YEARS LATER.

[Lefty48197]

106. Considering the Dean family's CIA ties,

I'm surprised to hear you use the term torture.

[Phelan]

112. The school in Georgia is the wussy version of the one is Panama

What people have issues with happend almost exclusively at the SOA in Panama. SOA in Georgia is not exactly a respectable institution but its also not the one in Panama. I actually think the one in Panama has been closed.

[robbedvoter]

113. If the truth is relevant to anyone, check this research:

http://writers.forclark.com/story/2004/1/12/101338/648
If it spoils your fun, I guess keep living in the past. it's what you'll do for the next 8 years starting next year. Hold on tight to your tin hats.
P.S. Dictators don't need a school. Just look at W!

[Terwilliger]

118. Did Harvard teach HOW to cook the accounting books?

Was it part of the curriculum?

[lastliberalintexas]

116. Wow

I can't believe I am seeing DUers actually defend the SOA. While I don't think this should be used as a smear against Clark*, I can't believe that supposed progressives would defend such a place. Tis a different DU indeed.


*and I'm certainly no defender of Clark

[KittyWampus]

117. The SOA No Longer Exists. No Need To Defend It

Just pointing out the FACTS to people who like to use boogiemen to manipulate people.

[jonnyblitz]

119. I feel bad for you. n/t

[Tim_in_HK]

120. OK.

Well, let me just say that I do support Clark, but I also remember reading about SOA in the 80s, and getting extremely upset about it.

However, I also have read Clark's responses to it, and I think they are reasonable.

What I would like to know, is for those people who have a problem with Clark as to SOA, what do you think a proper response from Clark should be?

[LoneStarLiberal]

124. I'm With You

I back Clark and am no fan of the kinds of guys the SOA cranked out back in the 70s and 80s.

While I too think Clark's responses have been articulate and have qwelled my discomfort over the issue, there isn't a "proper response" that the Clark detractors on this point will be happy with unless he quits the race or swears off his military service.

[Hoppin_Mad]

123. SOA protests will be greeting Clark in NH - Being planned right now !

Stay tuned !