If you want to show your support for Yushchenko, put this in your avatar

[JohnLocke]

The orange ribbon shows solidarity with Yushchenko and the Ukrainians' fight for democracy. I urge all of you to put it in your avatar and/or sig line. :)

[franken-sense]

1. Solidarity with Bush ? n/t

[JohnLocke]

5. No, solidarity with democracy

Yushchenko leads the "Our Ukraine" coalition, which includes:

*Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists
*Forwards, Ukraine!
*Liberal Party
*People's Movement of Ukraine
*Party of Christian-Popular Union
*Party of Ukrainian Industrialists and Entrepreneurs
*Reform and Order Party
*Solidarity
*Socialist Party of Ukraine
*Ukrainian People's Movement
*Youth Party of Ukraine

Trust me, Yushchenko is not right-wing.
----
P.S.: Better Bush's marginal tactical support than Putin's full strategic support.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

9. Not ABB enough? What are you even talking about?

Clearly, Yushchenko is not ABB at all, otherwise, why would Bush wants him to win the elections in Ukraine? Bush must like him way more than he does Putin, since Putin supports the other guy. Bush knows a soulmate when he sees one. And I know a freeper when I see one.
:spank:

[JohnLocke]

14. See #17 (nt).

[allemand]

39. Last time I looked this forum was called democraticunderground.com

and not undemocraticunderground.com, so maybe you are in the wrong forum.

:eyes:

[podnoi]

49. Be sure you understand the truth, not what the media says!

It is not in any way clear cut. Both of these men worked for Kuchma and are equally unrepresentive.
What isn't being reported is the heavily nationalistic (as in ethnic tension) flavor of Yushenko supporters. This is a nationalist movement against the other half of Ukraine. If you don't know Russian it is difficult to hear the tone of his statements. Yushenko seems more of an extremist than a democratic representative.

Read this:

http://lunogled.blogspot.com /

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

33. Bush is his number one backer. Bush couldn't fix that one

So he's taking the position Kerry should be taking here.

[goclark]

2. Fox news even reported that people are saying he was poisoned

They showed pictures of his face before and after.

Huuum, which they were that interested in our votes.

[Menshevik]

3. done

[LisaL]

4. No way. If Bush wants him, I sure don't.

[JohnLocke]

6. See #2 (nt).

[LisaL]

7. When you say

" trust me, Yushchenko is not right-wing", how do you know that?
Those are religious and nationalist people, am I not right?
:eyes:
They are likely a lot more close to our religious evangelical christians than to liberals.

[JohnLocke]

17. Read:

http://www.yuschenko.com.ua/eng/Future/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=%22liberal%22+%22Viktor+Yushchenko%22

[MRKARNO]

12. You guys are unbelievably partisan

Just because Bush supports something, doesnt mean it's terribly awful. If anything, Yuschenko is a lot more like us because he is combatting the rich oligarchs (Haliburton, corporate CEOs, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Saudi Oil anyone?) and representing the people more. Just as the Democrats are the party of the people, this is what Yuschenko represents. Dems represent the students just like Yuschenko does. Notice how Dems and Yuschenko can organize these big protests while Yanukovych and the Republicans cannot.

[LisaL]

13. Well, Dems seem to be uncapable of organizing any big

protests here. I guess it's only works in Ukraine? Yanukovych and Republicans can not organize big protests? WTF are you even talking about? Bush and Republicans support Yuschenko. So, using your logic, it's republicans who are capable of organizing big protests in Ukraine. I am pretty sure Republicans would be able to organize big protests here as well.
:eyes:

[w4rma]

15. MRKARNO is correct, except about the partisan part, imho.

Look at the huge crowed that Sen. Kerry and Gov. Dean drew. And they didn't have to have people at the doors forcing these crowds to sign loyalty oaths, either.

My gut feeling is that Yuschenko's agenda is likely worth supporting. Besides, he was the one poisoned so that should help say that the ethics of those opposing him are not good ethics.

As for beeing "too partisan" I think we're just cautious.

[LisaL]

16. Read this, get a clue.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=74&ItemID=6746

[w4rma]

20. Yush is anti-Jew? I need to research this more, but there isn't much time

to do so.

[LisaL]

22. You would be surprised how anti-semitic

some Ukrainians and even Russians are. They have used Jews as scape goats for centuries. It sure as hell not all that black and white as our propaganda machine makes it out to be.

[TankLV]

46. Yes, and some democrats.

You know NOTHING about Ukrainians.

Try talking to some Ukrainians who actually know personally something about this issue.

Like this Ukrainian.

Me.

[allemand]

38. John Laughland also defended Robert Mugabe and Slobodan Milosevic

:eyes:

"In August, <http://www.crookedtimber.org> a part of the explosion of political journalism on the internet, investigates John Laughland. He is a regular at the Spectator, and in the course of his work has defended nearly every rep-ressive state on the planet from Belarus to Zimbabwe. As might be expected, he has found that Jean-Marie Le Pen isn't so bad. "Le Pen's views on immigration are the same as Norman Tebbit's," he told readers of the Spectator, "while his views on urban blight, social collapse and the decline of traditional values can be found every week in the columns of the Daily Mail . . .""

http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newTop=Section%3A+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=200408160014

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:wnq7j5efs0MJ:www.newstatesman.com/site.php3%3FnewTemplate%3DNSArticle_NS%26newTop%3DSection:%2BFront%2BPage%26newDisplayURN%3D200408160014+Where+have+all+the+children+of+the+left+gone%3F%0D%0A&hl=en

More:
http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002269.html

[podnoi]

59. Yushenko combating the oligarchs? Nope

Yushenkos biggest supporter (Yulia Timoshenko) is an oligarch. Estimated worth 11 Billion.

[JohnLocke]

66. And we have George Soros. So what? (nt)

[kostya]

35. This is the kind of non-thinking reactionism I would expect of the right.

I thought you libs were thinking people. Bush will simply take opportunisitic advantage of whatever situation crops up anywhere for his own ends. It doesn't mean he was behind it (you give him way too much credit) or even supports the direct action/result of the situation. He is a lying weasel, but you should not fall into the trap of simply saying that anything Bush supposedly "supports" makes it automatically bad. Sure, a great way to simplify your thinking, but it is not really thinking at all, just being reactionary and it makes you look as dumb as he is (nothing personal). - K

[Nordic]

10. great. another meaningless bit of "activism"

Will this really make anybody feel better?

No.

Will this change anything?

No.

Why bother?

We should be shutting down this country, and instead people are suggesting we put colored ribbons on our DU avatars?

Good god. :eyes:

[LisaL]

11. Well, if we will protest election FRAUD in Ukraine, but not here-

that would mean that our own election was fair and squire.

[JohnLocke]

18. What the hell are you doing, then?

Mr. More-activist-than-thou?

[Nordic]

19. gee, I'm trying to get rid of voter fraud in my OWN country

Trying to get the plank out of my own eye before I go after the splinter in someone else's.

[JohnLocke]

21. And how exactly are you doing that?

Pray tell?

[LisaL]

23. IMO, this situation is nothing as it's made out to be by

our media. And it's all because Yuschenko wants Ukraine to join NATO.

[Nordic]

24. I think it's all a red herring

Bushco doesn't do anything by accident.

They are pushing this so they can foment civil war in the Ukraine. At which time Russia will invade the Ukraine to "stabilize" it.

I think Bush and Putin have already made a deal on this.

We're going to see a lot of consolidation as Peak Oil approaches.

That's why I think it's a complete waste of time to even think about what's going on in the Ukraine. The Ukraine is being played.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. That is not all it is about

I can't believe the mindless partisanship of the american left some times. Get over the fact that bush wants Yushchenko to win. This is not about bush and it is not about anti-semitism. You need to read some Ukrainian history and get a clue yourself.

They were forced to become part of the Soviet Union. They suffered religious persecution as well as economic persecution and exploitation. And no they are not close to our "fundies", they are Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic. Their great composers were forced to abandon the religious themes and texts of their music and some stopped writing altogether during the revolution and never wrote again. The people were exploited and massacred and it was all for their natural resorces.

The Ukrainians hate the Russians for what happened. They have always had their own language and culture and they want to keep it now. When you look at a map of the Ukraine you see that they are split east and west. The support from the east is largely from Russian people who moved there during the russian occupation.
Now the Ukrainian people want to keep their freedom from Russian and because they are more right wing than you would like, you would rather deny them democracy.

I just don't get that attitude. It seems like completely selfish, tunnel vision to me. Do you really imagine that if the people felt the election was fair they would have been motivated to hit the streets the way they have? Why do you want to deny them their democracy just because you don't agree with their choice?

[LisaL]

34. Hah? I am not denying Ukrainians anything.

One can look at it as people protesting their stolen election. Another can look at it as people trying to overturn a legitimate election.
I wonder if Kerry had won, what would Bush supporters had done?
:eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

41. no one can't look at it as people turning over a legitimate election

when the majority of people know it was stolen... of course you chose to think they are just puppets for bush. Selfish anti bush partisanship or ideological pro-russian/socialist bias. I don't know which is your problem.

[TankLV]

48. Umm - one small correction.

There is no such thing as Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic.

That is like saying Roman Catholic Baptist.

There is Ukrainian Catholic. I am one. My parish where I grew up in Buffalo is under the Stamford Diocese.

Then there is Orthodox.

They are the by-products of the schism from a thousand years ago when the Roman Empire split up and produced 2 capitals - on in Rome and one in Constantinople-Istanbul.

The Russian church is Orthodox. The Ukrainians have both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

The Catholic Church has the Pope in Rome as the head. The other has Metropolitan somebody whose name I don't know.

[podnoi]

51. Having relatives there

I would have to disagree with your assesment. The polish half does indeed resent the Russians. But you are leaving out half the country. I have relatives there. Yushenko is not the nice, democratic, guy he is being made out to be.

[TankLV]

55. The "polish" half? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about UKRAINIANS - you know, the people that FORMED the country and whose country it actually is?

I'm not for the Russians who were settled in the Ukraine to determine the future for Ukrainians, that's for sure!

[LisaL]

57. We have a whole bunch of immigrants here in US.

Are you going to declare that only Native Americans can determine future of US from now on? Russians that settled in Ukraine should have just as much say in it's future as US immigrants who settled in the US should have to say about it's future.

[TankLV]

47. It sure as hell ain't ANYTHING YOU make it out to be, that's for sure!

You know NOTHING of what you are spewing.

Try talking to an actual Ukrainian.

Like me.

[podnoi]

52. Are you from Western Ukraine?

My family is from Eastern Ukraine. Yushenko has succeeded in one thing. The country is ready to split apart.

Let me ask you this if I could. Do you agree in removing the Russian Language from Libraries, Schools, the like, despite the hardship for the half that do not know it? Do you agree with the statement reported on Ukrainian TV by one of Yushenko's supporters that "the opposition should be surrounded by barbed wire and burned?" Why is Yushenko so quick to incite people to revolution? Do you really feel it is wise and something you want in a leader? Heaven knows many did not like Kuchma but Yushenko does not sound like a step forward.

[TankLV]

53. My family is from the western Ukraine.

"Let me ask you this if I could. Do you agree in removing the Russian Language from Libraries, Schools, the like, despite the hardship for the half that do not know it?"

I agree that the Ukrainian language should be the language of everything in the Ukraine. The FACT is: The Russians are the ones who BANNED the Ukrainian language EVERYTHING - from Libraries, Schools, the like, despite the hardship for the UKRAINIAN PEOPLE THEMSELVES - IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY! Fuck the russians and others who invaded and occupied our native land. THE LANGUAGE AND CUSTOMS SHOULD BE UKRAINIAN - do you believe that the goddamn russian language should be the only language like it was before independence?

"Do you agree with the statement reported on Ukrainian TV by one of Yushenko's supporters that "the opposition should be surrounded by barbed wire and burned?" No, I don't, but you can't blame people for having long memories of Russian oppression that makes some Nazi atrocities look tame! You mean payback for what the Russians did to the Ukrainian people? That is what is was talking about. Or haven't you heard of the great Ukrainian Famine and exterminated millions under the boot of the Russians.

"Why is Yushenko so quick to incite people to revolution?" He is not inciting any such thing. He is for elections that are honest and fair - you know, the one where the most votes counts, and not gaining power by lying cheating and stealing - like bunkerboy and your pals.

"Do you really feel it is wise and something you want in a leader?" ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!

"Heaven knows many did not like Kuchma but Yushenko does not sound like a step forward." Kuchma is a butcher. Putin's KGB henchman. Totally corrupt. Yushenko is THE step forward.

[podnoi]

58. Maybe you believe it is time for ethnic cleansing?

That is what your post sounds like.

No-one has. The alternative was primary language Ukrainian, secondary, Russian.


TankLV, you mistake me and many others that in in your country (I am a US Citizen). Nobody I know supported Kuchma and would all agree with what you said.

No offense TankLV. Your bitter anger is no better than what was done to you. You need to let go of it. Your writing is quite frankly scary and leads me to believe more than ever that Yushenko support is not what it is being touted as.

[TankLV]

67. I am fine thankyouverymuch. YOU are the scary one.

Stop assuming or putting words in my mouth.

The Russians should leave the Ukrainains alone.

I've noticed that you haven't refuted one fact I've presented.

America is an immigrant country. Ukraine is not.

If you want ot live in France, don't expect them to change to American ways of live and English. That's all I'm saying. YOU put too much into what YOU THINK I mean. I mean exactly what I say, No more no less.

It wasn't done to ME - it was done to my ancestors. I'm an American of Ukrainian descent. I almost could care less what happens there other than as a curiosity. But I hate it when people spew garbage when they no nothing of what they are speaking about.

Nice spin there, fella. Any repuke would be proud.

[JohnLocke]

70. Uh...no (nt).

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

26. No.

Opposing electoral fraud in the Ukraine is VERY different than inavading a foreign country for oil.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

28. Extremist isolationism...

...has never really worked, hasn't it?

[JohnKleeb]

29. I believe extreme isolationist is what Henry Cabot Lodge was

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

32. "Who cares?"

You don't give a rat's ass about the rest of the world, do you? :eyes: :eyes:

[LisaL]

36. It's our constant meddling into what is going in the rest of the

world I have a problem with.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. the meddling is mostly in your imagination

you just don't want the Ukrainians to have a fair election if it means they allign with the west. What do you have against democracy?

[goclark]

37. It's not about the rat to me

it is about the confusion for those of us who have not kept up with the Ukraine.

The candidates have the same first names and their last names are to close to call for me.

All I know is the one with the "chen" in the middle is the one that probably got poisoned. His face is a mess.

I am confused because anyone that would get poisoned is usually the good guy in my mind,sad to say.

So that's why I can't figure out why Bad Guy Bush would ever support the Good Guy. It is not his style to like the good guy.

[Cheswick2.0]

43. because bush has another aggenda

but who cares? This is about what the Ukrainian people want.

[LisaL]

56. Then let them deal with it, instead of constantly meddling

in their affairs. As far as I understand it, they are split.
Why should I show support toward one group against the other group, especially considering I am apparently supposed to support the same group as Bush.

[Cheswick2.0]

69. they aren't that split

one side is clearly the majority, Yushchenkos side. Did you see the film of the pro russian thugs beating people up to keep them from voting?

[Cheswick2.0]

44. yeah, cause the two minutes it takes to change your avatar

is going to slow down the revolution

[Nordic]

54. it's a placebo

that's all. Good intentions are fine, but seriously, what can something like this do except make people feel better, and worse, make them feel like they've actually done something when they have not?

That's where I have the problem.

"here, do this and it will make you feel better and delude you into thinking you've actually done something".

Sorry, I'm just on more of a realistic bent these days

[Karenina]

40. There is nothing more frightening

than ignorance in action. Goethe

[TankLV]

45. done.

Xristos Razhdietchya!

[podnoi]

60. Yulia Timoshenko was "The Gas Queen"

Yulia Timoshenko, Yushenko's second in command, is worth 11 Billion and ran the GAS INDUSTRY in Ukraine.

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I'm much more interested in fighting for democracy here.

It's not that I don't care about Ukrainian democracy. It's just that the fate of American democracy is a far more pressing and urgent issue for me. Besides, unlike the Americans, the Ukrainians seem to be quite able to fight their own fights.

I'd like to transplant a little of their energy and committment to Democracy to people in our own country. But as long as we're not going to raise a stink about election fraud here, we look hypocritical raising a stink about its happening over there.

Maybe they could start wearing ribbons to show solidarity with us.

[Joe the Revelator]

62. I can believe some of the selfish and short-sighted responses....

to this thread. Its unbelievable, some of you are no better then the right wingers you love to vilify.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. Excuse me?

Tell me exactly what I can do about the Ukrainian situation. The Ukrainian people seem to be handling it on their own. I don't even know which is the correct position. There's two Ukrainians on the board fighting over it. I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of Ukrainian politics.

And if I can't even do anything to help democracy here at home, why do you think I can do anything to help Ukrainian democracy? Do you really think that changing my avatar to an orange ribbon is going to help anyone?

Some people on this board are as judgemental as the right wingers they love to vilify.

[goclark]

64. I agree, I'm so busy here with the Bushes

and I am really jealous that the
Amerikans ,even Democrats, are so afraid of our government that they are afraid to wear a ribbon or arm band here.

I wish all good things for the brave Ukraines!

[JohnLocke]

65. Kick

[robbedvoter]

68. Yuschenko is one of THEM. I'll keep my sig to make a point

Here's why NOT to support yuscenco
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1394263
podnoi (21 posts) Sun Nov-28-04 12:02 AM
Original message
Ukrainian elections...
This election crises is not all as the media is presenting: Excellent blog article illuminates.
Ukrainian elections... the long rant
Article Here
http://lunogled.blogspot.com /
A few scattered observations
i) For the record, both candidates suck.
ii) How many irregularities which OSCE uses to say that Ukraine's
elections are INVALID also apply for the November election in the US?
Read the report and make up your own mind.
iii) The idea that Yushenko is a fighter against corruption is
ludicrous. He was a TOP GUY in the ruling party while the most
corrupt deals were made, by some of his leading supporters
also, this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1358966,00....
But I do see the irony, so I sign thusly