DK didn't run against Bush and DK didn't quit

[genius]

Also DK's primary votes were greater than the number of Dems hwo voted for Bush in the G.E. I am really tired of attacks on DK - especially absurd ones. DK was great on the issues and brought in more Declines to State and third party voters than any other candidate and he convinced them to vote for the eventual nominee. Kerry owes Dennis a big thank you for all the votes Dennis brought him in the general eleciton. And, since DK wasn't running in the general election, any Dem votes for Bush were againt Kerry not against DK. To add to all this, if DK were running in the general, he would now be President because he would not have quit. Jessie Jackson was right about Kerry betraying our trust. It's time for Kerry to jump back in and show that he is worthy of trust.

BTW, anyone who kept track of the results from the states and protectors, knows that Dennis had at least one first, a number of seconds and a number of thirds.

[ISUGRADIA]

1. How many votes did Kucinich get during the primaries?

[genius]

4. Enought to bring him in second for the presidency at the convention.

[ISUGRADIA]

5. Yeah, a distant (and that's charitable) second

80 delegates out of 4000 or so? Kucinich came in behing LaRouche in some states when other candidates were active in the race.

And his votes during the primary were no where near the number of Dems who voted for Bush in November as you claim.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ISUGRADIA]

8. No, I'll post here because I'm a Democrat who wants to win.

Kerry almost did. He was our nominee. Kucinich came no where near winning the nomination

Where am I wrong in my response? What fact are wrong? name me those states that Kucinich won or came second in.

[goodhue]

80. Dennis came in 2nd in Hawaii.

Although it was not widely reported.

He also came in second at the Colorado state convention (a caucus state that does not bind delegation to caucus day proportions).

Dennis would have won all the states Kerry did plus Ohio.

[mosin]

133. DK...

would have lost at least 40 states, including Ohio, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Florida, Iowa, Pennsylvania, and Michigan.

DK was not, is not, and never will be a credible presidential candidate.

[cheezus]

136. how's that been working out for you?

[LittleClarkie]

15. Oh, second place, eh?

Kerry came in second for the presidency itself and all you can do is bash him. Why should we then be impressed with Dennis' second place.

Really, I like Dennis. Dennis is a cool guy. But Dennis would have been McGoverned to death, same a Dean.

I'm sorry. As I said with the suggestion that Dean could have one, if you couldn't make it out of the primaries alive, then you had no chance against Bush.

And, if you believe there was fraud, then no candidate was going to make it. Dennis didn't have a magic anti-fraud device, did he?

[CTLawGuy]

78. you know McGovern

served in WWII as a fighter pilot and received medals for bravery...

Just thought Id point that out.

[Vox_Reason]

84. His latest book is great, too!

Makes a great stocking stuffer:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743269276/qid=1102113991/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-0674066-4340061

[American Tragedy]

120. He also studied to be a youth minister. He's a brave man with a good heart

I think even his detractors might privately admit that George McGovern is one of the finest men in the history of American politics.

Yet he ran against one of the worst and most corrupt, and lost miserably.

Sometimes I fear that Democrats and progressives have forgotten the significance of that.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. only because all the other candidates delegates went to Kerry

if all the delegates had stuck with their original candidate DK would have been a distant 5th. If all the original candates had stayed in the race until the end he would possibly have done even worse.

[GreenArrow]

40. or the other candidates delegates could have gone to DK

and given the left at least some sort of bargaining power. Even at the DNC 95 percent of the delegates favored an anti-war position that was not written into the Dem platform. Once Dean dropped out, it would seem that voters who had preferred him either cast a meaningless vote for Dean who was no longer running, or voted for Kerry, the apparent winner, when they could have cast a vote for DK, who likely was more in line with their own beliefs, and who at least would fight to get some of those issues heard (to no avail.)

[Cheswick2.0]

63. and that is the cruxt of the problem and what you all do not understand

Dean's voters are all over the place idiologically. Republicans, independents, Greens, liberal democrats, conservative democrats.
You think those votes should have gone to DK, but lots of us do not particularly like him.
Do you know the difference between an authoritarian and libertarian lefty is? For example, Ghandi is a libertarian leftist while Stalin is an authoritarian leftist. I am not comparing DK to Stalin, but the point is he has taken some votes I am NOT okay with. Even though I am liberal, I am liberal in areas where DK is not.

The fix was in in Iowa and DK was part of that fix when he decided to be part of the Stop Dean crowd. His little arrangement with Edwards was not appreciated by me. So why would I or any other Dean supporter vote for him?

In any case it is over. DFA has stayed together and we are working to make the democratic party a populist party again. Anyone interested in doing that can come join us.

[DemBones DemBones]

95. Great spirit of cooperation there, Chessie.

You Dean supporters don't seem to understand that many of us other Dems don't particularly like Howard Dean, because he's a a textbook example of an authoritarian Dem, and hardly "left" at all. Thus, many of us aren't interested in remaking the party to get Dean elected.

[GreenArrow]

114. you made my point for me

.

[dpbrown]

135. There was no person in nomination other than Kerry at DNC

Kerry was the only one whose name was actually placed in nomination at the Convention in Boston.

The Kucinich delegates who voted for Dennis at the Convention did so out of the conviction to principle that Dennis himself campaigned on.

There was no plan to petition other delegates to vote for Dennis at the Convention, and delegates who were originally pledged to Dean or Edwards or Sharpton did not organize on the floor to cast protest votes for their original candidate, having been released long before the Convention and been instructed to vote for Kerry.

It's very unlikely that Edwards delegates would have voted for Edwards over Kerry/Edwards, even if Edwards had stayed in the race until the Convention, as Dennis did.

And since Dennis endorsed Kerry on the eve of the Convention and requested that all his pledged delegates support Kerry, it's a credit to Kucinich and the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party that Dennis got so many votes on the floor.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
Democratic National Convention Delegate

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

3. So Kerry has unconceded? I don't think so.

[LittleClarkie]

6. No but he's helping with the recount situation

Did you know that?

Or is it just not enough in your eyes?

[Padme Amidala]

10. It's almost too late for the recount. He needed to help before.

A last ditch effort after he's almost run out the clock in Ohio is pretty worthless and he did run out the clock in Florida. He gave Florida to Bush. Didn't he care about all his supporters there. If he wins, we should re-hold the election and then all vote for David Cobb. And I worked long hours for Kerry. I want compensation since he was not seriously running for President.

[ever_green]

13. sounds like a plan

Cobb or Nader.

[REP]

17. I'm The Hateration

I don't like St Dennis for his years and years of anti-abortion votes, which he attributed to his deep Catholic faith. Oddly enough, that same deep Catholic faith didn't keep him from getting divorced twice. He changed his tune on reproductive rights shortly before running for president, when he realized how that could hurt him, I mean, had a change of heart.

I think he's a venal opportunist, and more icky than most because of his sackcloth and ashes routine. Turns me off. Most others adore him, which is fine, as long as they don't try to make *me* eat the Tofurkey.

[Cheswick2.0]

20. he's an authoritarian lefty....and not as lefty as he should be

I don't like authoritarian lefties. And his lefty voting record is not nearly as good as many other people in congress. He has a lousy record with the ACLU.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. At least he supports the Boy Scouts

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll539.xml

[Cheswick2.0]

28. I don't support the boy scouts

no until they stop teaching boys to be homophobic. What a difference between them and the girls scouts who seem to be very inclusive.

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. But Dennis Kucinich supports them

He's got a spine and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes is right.

[fujiyama]

126. And the good congressman

from the district next to mine had the guts to NOT support them. I'm speaking of John Dingell.

[eridani]

66. So how many of other candidates voted against the PATRIOT Act?

[DemBones DemBones]

96. . . . crickets. . .

Who voted against PATRIOT Act? Well, there was Dennis Kucinich and. . . ???

[eridani]

98. And all those anti-authoritarian Dems who voted against the PATRIOT Act--

--were who? Speak up, we can't hear you!

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. How many candidates voted to ban partial-birth abortion?

Well, there was Dennis Kucinich and. . . ???

[Freddie Stubbs]

122. . . . crickets. . .

Even Joe Lieberman voted against that bill:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=105&session=1&vote=00071

[genius]

27. It's one thing to be anti-liberal but it's stupid to lie about votes

Dennis was never anti-abortion in his voting. He was not gung ho on public funding of abortions but has come around on that issue. Mischaracterizatizing to the point of lying is not useful and distracts from real issues.

[paulk]

29. oh, yes, he was -

here's his voting record prior to his "conversion" - and remember, you don't get a 100% rating from NARAL by being pro - abortion.


Voted YES on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research.
Vote to pass a bill that would forbid human cloning and punish violators with up to 10 years in prison and fines of at least $1 million. The bill would ban human cloning, and any attempts at human cloning, for both reproductive purposes and medical research. Also forbidden is the importing of cloned embryos or products made from them.
Reference: Human Cloning Prohibition Act; Bill HR 534 ; vote number 2003-39 on Feb 27, 2003

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999

Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record.

[paulk]

33. let me correct this -

what I meant to say is that prior to his conversion, Kucinich got a 0% rating from NARAL

he got a 95% rating from Right to Life.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Only 95%?

So at least he was a little bit pro-choice, right?

[paulk]

46. they took off 5% because he's a Democrat

;-)

[Cheswick2.0]

30. he was anti-choice his whole career

until he changed his position to run for President. Spin it anyway you like, he voted for all the anti choice legislation that came down the pike until about two years ago.

[eridani]

106. A history of his evolution on the issue

Which happened to precede his run for the presidency.

http://www.issues2000.org/OH/Dennis_Kucinich_Abortion.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. He did vote to ban partial-birth abortions in 1998

before he ran for President.

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. And he voted to ban partial-birth abortions again 2000

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2000/roll104.xml

So, he has always been pro-choice?

[eridani]

65. So what does he get out of his 'opportunism'?

[goodhue]

88. Genius is no doubt reacting to this thread . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1400235

[Padme Amidala]

9. Good post Genius. Keep up the good work.

I think that the Kerry people have no where to turn now that Kerry has let Florida and Ohio slip by and they are lashing out at Dennis because Dennis cares. His delay in doing anything has cost him Florida and it's really too late to get his Ohio electors seated. Boy, is Kerry going to look stupid if he wins. But at least he's better than Bush.

[angrydemocrat]

25. LMAO

I don't see the Kerry people going anywhere. And I got news for you they won't. So regardless of all the trash you try to throw our way, regardless of your nasty remarks about Kerry or his supporters, And regardless of all your pi$$ing and moaning we Kerry supporters are here to stay so you might as well get use to it.

[Padme Amidala]

11. Don't let the Bushies get you down. Their worst nightmare is Dennis

If he were nominated, no Republican would stand a chance.

[goodhue]

86. no doubt

He is an emperor wears no clothes candidate a la Jesse. Speaking truth to power has the potential to upset the apple cart, if it gets out. The media successfully squashed him in the primaries but had he been the nominee, sheer chutzpah would have kicked media into high gear. DK has much greater challenge winning primary than general. General election would be DK earthquake.

[fujiyama]

127. That's one of the funniest things I've heard

Kucinich didn't win his own district in the primaries. His own constituents didn't want him as president.

He's a good guy, but I'm tired of candidate worshipping, regardless of whom it is. We're trying to find perfect politicians and Kucinich is far from that.

And as for all this talk regarding giving up, Kucinich would have lost by such a huge margin, that it wouldn't have mattered.

[m berst]

12. thanks for the post

The supposedly "killer" argument from those who just can't stand Dennis or any one else who at one time was considered a middle of the road Dem and who is now called "far left" and too radical is that "it's all about winning." They use that to justify moving more and more away from the traditional stance of the Democratic party. There is only one problem with their thesis - ever since the "realists" and centrists seized control of the party, all we do is lose.

[ever_green]

14. exactly

Furthermore, is it really winning if we have moved so far to the right as to be indistinguishable from them?

[Brundle_Fly]

16. I don't know much about

DK, but he kinda reminds me of a "stem-celled up" Steven Hawking.

[LittleClarkie]

18. The repubs at the pub used to say he looked like an xmas elf

To which I'd answer "Don't go there. Yours looks like Alfred E. Neumann."

[Brundle_Fly]

42. touchÒ

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Chimpy Got About Five Million Democratic Votes....

How many votes did DK get in the primaries?

[ISUGRADIA]

22. Only around 640,000

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P04/D.phtml

He got over 10% of the vote in only 9 states and over 20% in only 2 of those 9. Under 5% of the vote in 34 states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Democratic_Party_presidential_nomination,_2004#State-by-state_results

[ISUGRADIA]

23. Only around 640,000

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P04/D.phtml

He got over 10% of the vote in only 9 states and over 20% in only 2 of those 9. Under 5% of the vote in 34 states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Democratic_Party_presidential_nomination,_2004#State-by-state_results

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Not bad for someone who got next to no publicity

The states where he broke 20% were the ones where the press actually paid attention to him, and even in Minnesota, which was one of his best states for publicity, the TV news stations didn't cover his visits like they covered the other candidates. The New York Times put a nearly complete blackout on him. They even covered Sharpton better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. why is the original poster saying dk got more democratic voters than bush

[Julien Sorel]

38. This thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1400235

The OP seems to think it was a personal attack on Kucinich, and has been in a huff about it since.

[Cuban_Liberal]

52. You're correct.

It's not a liberal country.

[Albert Einstein]

53. Your number is way off. The Bush figure is nonsense.

Dennis got a lot more votes than that so you need to go back and recalculate. Also General Election votes are anonymous. No one knows how may Democratic votes Bush got. However, it is certain someone rigged the tabulators in Florida to switch results in Democratic precincts.

[ISUGRADIA]

57. Show me the source for your numbers, Einstein

The website I cited showed 640,000.

Look here at CNN's vote count:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/candidates/1380/index.html

It's not all states, but most of them.

If you cannot cite a different source then I'm afraid we'll have to go with some REAL not imaginary numbers.

As for the general election I am using exit poll numbers. The Democratic percentage voting for Bush would calculate out to around 4 or 5 million votes. Even if the exit polls are off by 50% that is still more votes than DK. Face it, he got clobbered in the primaries.

[GreenArrow]

41. and to those Five million "Democratic" voters

what exactly does their Democratic party affiliation mean to them?

[Hippo_Tron]

112. They are "Zell Miller Democrats" :P

Basically, Republicans who are too lazy to change their party affiliation.

[Albert Einstein]

54. Really? Did you follow the Democrats into the voting booth?

All votes in publically held elections are anonymous. In a general election, registrars and poll workers don't record who votes for what party. Bush's claimed win depends on people believing the nonsense to which I am responding. However, we know that the tabulators were rigged and vote totals were switched. My suggestion is you research what you say rather than repeating a Republican lie without checking the facts first. It is a good idea to research everything you say before you put it in writing. Failure to check the facts is why one-third of the country supports Bush. They don't know better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Really-Einstein...

"Really? Did you follow the Democrats into the voting booth?"
Posted by Albert Einstein


I don't have to follow Jessica Simpson into the bathroom to know she has a vagina......


Sometimes a little common sense will help....

[Moochy]

139. Sure Jessica Simspon, but what bout Jamie Lee Curtis?

Following Jessica Simpson might work but what about Jamie Lee Curtis ;-) *ducks*

[sangh0]

35. DK didn't run against bush*?

Maybe that's why he lost

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. He was just running to sabotage LaRouche's campaign

;)

[rinsd]

39. DK would have been slaughtered......

...Bush would have won with 60 maybe even 70% of the vote with a possible electoral wipeout.

Is it your contention that democrats who couldn't hold their nose for Kerry choosing Bush instead would have flocked to DK?

I'll certainly agree he added a vaulable precesnce to the Dems and did bring in otherwise 3rd party voters but to think he would win....just has no basis in reality.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. In which state did Kucinich finish first?

:shrug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

47. Hawaii. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. Nope. Kerry won Hawaii

Kerry wins Idaho, Utah, Hawaii

Candidates look to Thursday debate and 'Super Tuesday'
Thursday, February 26, 2004 Posted: 9:37 AM EST (1437 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Democratic front-runner Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts added three more wins to his victory column, sweeping contests in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii over his major rival for the presidential nomination, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina.

"I'm thrilled," Kerry told reporters Wednesday in Cleveland, Ohio, where he visited a steel plant. "It was great, but we've got a lot of work ahead of us, a lot of work, a lot of campaigning to do."

Tuesday's trio of small state contests, which have been largely overshadowed by next week's "Super Tuesday" delegate bonanza, were the first since the Democratic race narrowed to essentially a battle between Kerry and Edwards.

The results appeared to do little to alter the dynamics of the Democratic race, as Edwards, in his dogged pursuit to divert Kerry's march toward the nomination, is counting on "Super Tuesday" -- with its bounty of 10 states and 1,151 delegates -- to propel him further. (CNN.com's interactive Election Calendar)

more: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/25/elec04.prez.main/

[eridani]

59. Hard to win when the media won't even credit a second place finish

Note that the article doesn't mention that Kucinich finished ahead of Edwards--it's all about Kerry/Edwards.

[Cuban_Liberal]

61. Not true.

I watched the returns from every primary and caucus, and I read 3 daily newpapers. Every candidate had his/her 'place' duly noted each and every time. There was no bias against DK; DK simply didn't do well enough to merit extensive media coverage.

[eridani]

64. What did the headlines about Hawaii say? n/t

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. They said Kerry won, and DK finished second.

Should they have said something else?

:shrug:

[eridani]

68. URL, please?

The ones I saw said Kerry finished 1st and Edwards 3rd.

[Cuban_Liberal]

69. Sorry, I'm not gonna play 'gotcha'.

I actually get a physical copy of the 3 newspapers. They are the Chicago Tribune, St. Louis Post-Dispatch and the Springfield Journal-Register. If you want the URLs, all 3 are online, and I would suggest you look for yourself.

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. FoxNews: Kucinich Finishes Strong in Hawaii

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

HONOLULU — Longshot Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich (search) has had his best showing so far in a state contest.

John Kerry (search) easily won the Hawaii caucuses last night, while Kucinich finished second. John Edwards came in third.

more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112421,00.html

[fujiyama]

128. I don't know

why there is argument about this.

http://uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/

Go to primary by year and choose 2004.

Kucinich didn't win any primaries. He placed second in HI with 30% compared to Kerry's 47%. Edwards got 12.96%

At this point the primaries were virtually over. HI is a liberal state and I doubt most of the Edwards and Dean supporters had any interest in making what was only a symbolic vote.

[Freddie Stubbs]

109. FoxNews: Kucinich Finishes Strong in Hawaii

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

HONOLULU — Longshot Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich (search) has had his best showing so far in a state contest.

John Kerry (search) easily won the Hawaii caucuses last night, while Kucinich finished second. John Edwards came in third.

more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112421,00.html

I hope that answers your question.

[goodhue]

87. It showed up in no headline or lead paragraphs of any story.

And I was looking.
If you have a link to a story I would be very curious to read it.

His exclusion by the media was systematic and ongoing.
It started well before any voting occurred, so suggesting DK blackout was based on showing is simply not accurate.

[Cuban_Liberal]

89. Checked all3,eh?

Oddly enough, online newspapers often have different content than the print editions, for pretty obvious reasons. As I previously and clearly stated, I read the actual PRINT VERSION, so no, I don't have a link.

:eyes:

[goodhue]

90. What papers were you reading?

I didn't check them all. Just all I could lay my hands on. I'd be curious what you read in print that did not make in online.

[Cuban_Liberal]

92. Post #69, infra. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

110. FoxNews: Kucinich Finishes Strong in Hawaii

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

HONOLULU — Longshot Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich (search) has had his best showing so far in a state contest.

John Kerry (search) easily won the Hawaii caucuses last night, while Kucinich finished second. John Edwards came in third.

Kucinich was helped by a recent visit to Hawaii. Kerry and Kucinich were the only two on the ballot to pick up delegates to the national convention.

more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112421,00.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

101. FoxNews: Kucinich Finishes Strong in Hawaii

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

HONOLULU — Longshot Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich (search) has had his best showing so far in a state contest.

John Kerry (search) easily won the Hawaii caucuses last night, while Kucinich finished second. John Edwards came in third.

more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112421,00.html

Perhaps you missed that one.

[ISUGRADIA]

102. And FOX did not even diminish it by noting the abysmal turnout

only around 4000.

A Democratic Hawaii primary election in September can attract 150,000 to 200,000. Then again, most of Kucinich's higher % came in states with terrible turnout where the true believers showed up.

[Freddie Stubbs]

103. Perhaps FoxNews wanted to help Kucinich

:shrug:

[eridani]

108. That's a good turnout for a caucus, actually.

Caucuses generally have lower turnouts than primary elections.

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Kucinich supporters certainly have one thing in common with Bush

Always blaming someone else for Kucinich's shortcomings.

[Forkboy]

79. Is that why gays got blamed here at DU so much after Kerry lost?

I'd say all candidates supporters need to look in the mirror and stop acting like they were the only perfect ones.

[Freddie Stubbs]

83. Kerry lost because of the campaign which he ran

[Forkboy]

85. I agree

yet obviously as we saw here many did not.Are they excused from always blaming someone else? Are Kucinich supporters the only ones guilty of your charge?

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. Kerry won in Iowa, Kucinich finished 5th

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/states/IA/

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. Kerry won in NH, Kucinich finished 6th (behind Joe Lieberman)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/01/27/index.html

Does anyone know what state Kucinich won? :shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

72. Kerry won Arizona, Kucinich finished 6th (behind Lieberman)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. Kerry won Delaware, Kucinich finished dead last

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

76. Kerry won Missouri, Kucinich finished 8th

And only a few hundred ahead of "uncommitted."

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

115. Kerry won New Mexico, Kucincich came in 5th

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

123. Kerry won New Mexico, Kucinich came in 5th

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

124. Kerry won North Dakota, Kucinich finished 5th

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

125. Kerry won in Oklahoma, Kucinich finished dead last

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

131. My bad. CLARK won Oklahoma, Kucinich finished dead last

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

132. Edwards won South Carolina, Kucinich finished dead last

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/03/index.html Doesn't anyone know in what state is was that Kucinich finished first? :shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

137. Kerry won in Michigan, Kucinich finished dead last

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/07/index.html

I'm still trying to figure out in which state Kucinich won. Is it possible that someone was lying about Kucinich finishing first in a state? :shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

138. Kerry won Washington, Kucinich finished 3rd

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/dates/02/07/index.html

I'm sure that we will figure out sooner or later in which state Kucinich finished first.

[Radical Activist]

141. Could you be any more crass and obnoxious?

than you are with these posts? There is such a thing as being a gracious winner. Try that sometime.

[Freddie Stubbs]

142. I am simply trying to figure out

where it was that Kucinich finished first. genius stated in the begininng of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1401543&mesg_id=1401543&page=

that "Dennis had at least one first, a number of seconds and a number of thirds." For some reason I do not remember this to be the case, so I as checking each state in an attempt to figure out which state that it is. If you happen to know what state it was, I would appreciate the information.

[Radical Activist]

143. So they made a mistake

Let it go. Considering the guy took no corporate money and had no media coverage he didn't do all that bad.

[Freddie Stubbs]

145. None of the candidates took money from corporations

Corporations are prohibited by law from contributing to federal campaigns.

[Mike L]

45. I like Kucinich and he's great on economic policies, but

do you really think, since people are so superficial, Americans would elect a President who looks like an elf?

ON EDIT:

:-)

[mr715]

50. Dennis Kucinich is a...

Self serving egotist.

He is profoundly arrogant, though his supporters will claim him to be the paragon of humility. He is a left wing ideologue when it serves him well, and a Catholic ideologue when it helps him get reelected in Ohio.

He is a bizarro combination of hippie (no coffee, no tea, but hot water!, department of peace, department of fluffy bunnies, and department of lobotomy induced happiness) and Joseph Goebbles (his convention speech; Weeee!!! WEEE AMERICA!! WEEEE!!! WE MUST BE STRONG!!! AMERICA!!! WEEE!!"

Sorry guys. Dennis Kucinich is to the democratic party what Tom Delay is to the right. A tumor needing to be excised.


Matt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Gee, some people don't hate Republicans that badly

:eyes:

[charlie]

56. No, just the opposite

This one wanted McCain on the ticket with Kerry.

[eridani]

58. If he's so self-serving--

--whythehell didn't he just sell Cleveland's public power system and become a solid member of the political establishment?

If he's arrogant, why did he back down after his delegates told him that they didn't want to cast votes for Kerry and they said they didn't want to? (2/3 did not, in the end.)

[goodhue]

81. broken record

Again with the hot water slam.
Its been at least six months since that was trotted out.
For the record it is hot water with lemon for his voice and is entirely rational unlike hatred displayed here.

[Mike L]

82. Matt, Kucinich performs a great service to the Dems.

He gives the far-left a voice and keeps them in the Party.

[eridani]

105. Far left?

Universal health care is so 'far left' that Eisenhower was in favor of it. Just keep on parroting current feudal Rethug definitions of what 'far left' is, and we'll be just fine. Not.

[XemaSab]

99. Kucinich reminds me

...of Nader.

This supposedly saintly dude with a base comprised entirely of hippies, who on closer scrutiny ain't so great.

[eridani]

104. His base of support included people who wanted a Republican as his VP

That is, Ron Paul (R-Tex), who was also against the war and the PATRIOT Act. Most of my local Kucinich meetup groups consisted of self-employed people who couldn't get health insurance at any price, and looked more like Rotarians than hippies.

What has he done lately that isn't 'saintly'?

[kodi]

60. zounds, true believerism trumps rationality again

same as it ever was around here.

and liberal democrats have the gall to snicker at the Jesus freaks for living in lala land?

[Desertrose]

71. and some snotty *centrist* dems still

have the same elitist attitude that turns so many folks off.

You are living in your own lala land pal.

*true beliverism*??? :wtf: get over yourself dood

[kodi]

77. on the contrary, kucinich supporters think the rest of us are stupid

and in that lies the arrogance of ill-informed fanatics who refuse to accept that their vision is their's alone and like little children stamp their feet when others think them clueless.

why dont you just shout louder like typical americans do when others refuse to acknowledge their genius?

BTW: i am hardly a centrist democrat, and if you want to debate political theory let's have it. in fact, since i have seen the paucity in quality of your posts before, i will let you chose which side you want to take in a debate so as to not take advantage of you.

so, start a thread on how great kucinich is, how wonderful his policies are, and how we get there from here and i will engage you and your "vision" thing.

and one other thing, it is you who is posting snobbish snot as you engage in yet another cult of personality.

[Dragonfly]

97. The last thing that I would consider Kucinich...

supporters to be deemed would be "ill-informed fanatics."

The "vision thing" that you so easily disparage is shared in the global context, combining courageous, humble and healing-oriented spirituality with a blazing intellectual grasp bent on nothing less than "mending Earth's sacred hoop."

I don't see Kucinich supporters "shouting." I see them speaking from their hearts about the disturbingly negative aspects of truth currently degrading the human condition that are undeniable. Then I see and hear them trying to build bridges amongst multiple progressive threads to actually present better ways to govern ourselves which will lift up all segments of our struggling society.

I've been interested in Dennis Kucinich's viewpoint for about 3 years, when first learning of his conceptual framework for a high-functioning Department of Peace. So, reading every post on this line of dialogue was something I looked forward to today. There are areas where I diverge from his perspective, minor to major; but in the main, there is no other candidate in 2004 who spoke more for my own personal belief in the possibility of a true, vivid and exciting societal transformation in our lifetimes.

I don't believe that a "cult of personality" is at the root of the Kucinich appeal. It's (to me) that he is tapping into the powerful, growing quest for the unified solid-soul-citizenship necessary to confront a raging wildfire which threatens to consume us all. That's why he got my vote.

Let's see how it all plays out and keep increasing our civility toward one another during these trying times. Again, I don't hear any Kucinich supporters "shouting."

[eridani]

107. What kind of 'cult' is it--

--when the Maximum Leader asks the 'cult' members who are convention delegates to vote for Kerry, and 2/3 of them say "No way!" Dean had much more luck with the obedience thing.

[DrGonzoLives]

75. DK MIGHT have one 90 or so electoral votes

and that's being kind.

[Tacos al Carbon]

94. OK, 3 for DC

Maybe 20 more for Ohio ... but 90? I don't see it. Actually, I don't think that Kucinich would have carried Ohio. He didn't in the primaries, if I recall correctly. The debates would have been a blast, though. I wonder who his running mate would have been.

[fujiyama]

129. There isn't a chance in hell

he would won OH. Remember, he didn't win his own district, let alone his state in the primaries. I doubt he could win any statewide election.

That said, I don't have anything against him. The debates would have been great though.

[Freddie Stubbs]

130. He has run for state-wide office in Ohio twice

And lost both times.

[fnottr]

140. good point

Remember, DK is a congressman from what's probably the liberalest district in Ohio, and couldn't carry even it for the primaries. Just because he's from Ohio doesn't mean the state as a whole would support him. States are not politically homogenous, for example some of the most conservateve reps in the House come from California.

[Hippo_Tron]

113. I think DK would've carried Cali, Hawaii, DC, and a lot of the northeast

Probably not New Jersey, Probbly not New Hampshire, and probably not Maine either. Minnesota and Wisconsin MAYBE, but most likely he would've not have carried Washington, Oregon, Iowa, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Florida.

[goodhue]

91. I appreciate your post but not certain it is helping

I appreciate and share your sentiment.
But alas it draws a lot of DK Haters.
If this post were about Dean or Clark, it would have been locked hours ago.

[LimpingLib]

93. But he ran on issues not ego. He had a reason to saty in unlike others.

You seem to forget that point.

O wait , that is your point.

OOPs.

Im not used to somebody in politics section promoting candidate thats runs to change the direction of the country.

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. And the Democratic primary voters sure showed their support of his issues

He sure gave Kerry a run for his money for the nomination. ;)

[bvar22]

116. What is so STRONG about...

..Dennis Kucinich's message that would provoke such a STRONG Kill-the-Messenger REACTION from the CONSERVATIVES on this board?

My god, they have attacked everything but his positions on the issues!

[eridani]

117. Well, fancy that!

And no shit, Sherlock, etc.

[zulchzulu]

118. The Primary scorecard tells the story about who won & who's in last place

Link

In case you haven't heard, Kucinich finished behind Sharpton. He finished last. As others have indicated, he never won any state.

Also, in case you haven't heard, Kerry and lawyers have been working on the post-election results since November 11. I'm sure they were on it immediately after November 2.

I am glad that Kucinich endorsed Kerry and had those who followed him vote for Kerry in the GE. I also like many of Kucinich's ideas and plans, but you have to face facts that he did not do well in the primaries.

To say the he would have beat Bush when he in fact finished last in the primaries is rather deluded if you ask me.

[Constitution]

119. That's a fake or at least wrong. DK got significantly more votes on floor

At the convention, his numbers were significantly higher. In fact, Al Sharpton was way behind Dennis long before the convention. Who created this phoney chart? Perhaps someone trying to discredit dennis.

His floor votes alone show that your numbers for DK are way low. Or are you saying that Kerry delegates switched and voted for DK at the convention?

[ISUGRADIA]

121. NOT A FAKE Off by maybe 40 delegate or so

This chart was probably valid at the time it was made. Not all delegates are selected at the time of the state's election. Some states are still selecting delegates as late as June. Plus in states such as Colorado, lower turnout at the conventions got Kucinich an extra few delegates.

His floor vote was 43, I believe. I don't know if total delegate numbers of 60 or so is "significantly higher" out of 4000+ delegates that were at the convention.

[Zorra]

134. Kooch! Um, I mean, kick.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

144. I'd like to see DK run as a Green in 2008.

Now that the DLC/RNC coalition runs the Democratic Party, we could use an opposition party in this country and Dennis could help build one.

[Rockerdem]

146. That would guarantee another Repuke for 4 more years

The OP is right. DK did bring new enthusiasm and new voters. But if he subtracts them next time, wtf's the result? Somebody worse than Chimp.

I think that's exactly what all the freeper disruptors want.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

147. Maybe. But, we'd at least have an opposition party.

Rather than the marshmallow party we're now stuck with. Dennis could really get the Greens off the ground.

As for the repugs being in for 4 more years...so? If the DLC "centrists" have their way, and run another Kerry, they will be anyway.

[debsianben]

148. Should you be interested....

A socialist take on DK, written during the primary:

http://news.mi-socialists.org/tms006-kucinich.html