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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:29 PM
Original message
Theory: Democrats may be biologically different from Republicans
I was in the thread that Skinner started where he asked what our ideas were on how we are all alike. What core values do we share as Democrats? And I thought about how the Democrats I know value critical thinking and logic. We seem to always be asking questions about right and wrong and I feel we all care about the world community of people enough that these things really matter to us. Our policy arises from that ability to look at the issues in a more or less unselfish way.
Republicans, on the other hand, seem to have an innate fear that prevents them from asking these important questions. They fear they will lose what they have. Or not come out on top.
I have observed that most behavior that I find objectionable, pathological, whatever, arises from a fear of something.
I wonder if it is possible, that those of us who are Democrats, are somehow biologically (as in brain chemistry) different from Republicans.
(This is not necessarily a nature/nurture question as I feel the slope between those is too slippery.)
I simply feel that there is a fundamental difference in the thought processes of the 2 parties and I think fear is what controls the right and their thinking, or lack thereof!
I'd appreciate thoughts on this. (Especially from folks more articulate than myself)
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Berkley did a study on liberal brains and conservative brains
and found that people that consider themselves liberal use their hypothalamus more.

The areas resonsible for empathy and logic are larger and are used more by a liberal brain.

Go Figure
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I don't believe it
As much as we dislike them, I'm sure Rumsfeld and Cheney use their brains every bit as much as liberals do. Although wrong on just about everything, they are smarter than most of us. Bush is another matter.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. different people use different parts of their brain more
men are more visually stimulated than woman
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I believe that, yes
Because men and women are obviously different biologically.
We have all observed such differences. Multi-tasking, for example, is something most women are better at than men.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. Smarter?????????????
They're well-connected con artists. Their policies are ill-informed and amazingly short-sighted.

This is your definition of "smarter"? Honey, anyone can read Mein Kampf and The Prince and follow the easy steps to world domination. It's not like they thought of any of it themselves.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. agreed
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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. This was actually studied...
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 02:38 PM by prodigal_green
I'll hunt for the info and post in edit, but they did brain scans (pet I think) showing different individuals pictures of different things. Those who were self-described as liberals had a reaction in the brain that registers fear when shown pictures of violence. Those who were self-described as conservatives did not show the same activity.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041006/news_lz1c6brains.html
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. "An intolerance of ambiguity and a cognitive need for closure"
Thanks for that. I'm going back to it to read some more
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Does that mean that liberals
are the ones that vote on fear??

I would not like to think so, and it just shows that basing conclusions on one "study" is foolish. It takes lots of studies, by unbiased researchers (not all of them are) to reach a valid conclusion.
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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. It means we are repulsed by violence. eom
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. No
It is a question of cultural and political values, where one lives, not biology. If you live in a city you are far more likely to vote Dem. If you live in a rural area, small town, or exurb, you tend to vote Republican.
I don't like the current trend to identify everything as biological. The way scientists frame questions is very much influenced by our current cultural context. The decide a priori that something is biological and then look for a gene. They even try to genetically establish race, when for decades, social scientists and theorists have agreed that race is a cultural construction rather than a discrete biological category.
Also, consider the implications: if it is biological, it is inevitable, immutable--we can't change political identification through persuasion. That obviously isn't the case.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, they know this from the study of stroke victums and which
portions of the brain are responsible for what.

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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. There are biological differences
whether they are a priori or not is up for debate.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Hi-and I appreciate your thoughts.
I don't necessarily mean biological as in we are born predisposed towards a point of view. That is why I said I didn't think of it as a nature/nurture thing. So I really think I phrased my theory incorrectly.
I'm trying to explore the reasons behind a Republican's seeming "inability" to think logically, be thoughtful, be unselfish, break out of their fear. I honestly think it is fear that separates us, but I don't know where it comes from.:-(
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Fox news? Rush?
Take over the reactionary media. That will go a long way toward solving the problem.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Re-Programming!!!!
;)
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. Some of it just comes down to information, and ours is different
You can change a person's decisions and viewpoints by changing the information base on which they form those decisions and views. The repub base is Fox's, is Rush's, etc.

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Wisc Badger Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. I am new to DU and a recovering Republican
And I hold a BA in History and I would like to believe that I have the ability to think logically.

I just can no longer stand how the GOP approaches the budget, war, or certain social issues (and I go to a Baptist Church (General Conference)). Guess that is what a education will do for you.

I also served 17 plus years USN and have a service connected disability for my troubles.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Hello Wisc Badger
Welcome to the recovery project!

:hi:
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. I would say you do have the ability to think logically. I mean....
you did say you were a recovering republican!;)
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Disagree
Just because somethign has bilogical roots doesn't in ANY way mean it is inevitable. We basically are just containers for our DNA to maintain its immortality, but any person can choose not to participate in passing on his or her DNA.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. Fear of new ideas values staid complacency
Our forefathers valued liberty and freedom of expression to a point. Jefferson said "Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."
--Thomas Jefferson to Dr. James Currie, 1786

Looking at how our media is concentrated in the hands of a few today, we therefore are slowly losing our liberty. We are constantly told what to do, what to buy, what to think via our media saturated culture. Lately conservatives have been winning the day.

Times change and we get to choose what to listen to and read. Let's hope there is a vibrant LIBERAL variety of things to look into !
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JaneDoughnut Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Biology doesn't mean heredity
Practice makes perfect. If you repeat an action over and over again, your brain actually creates new pathways to make that action easier.

So I guess if you think like a liberal long enough, your brain could change in a way that reflects that. It doesn't mean people are born that way or that the changes can't be reversed.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I feel certain this "rut" thinking is involved in clinical depression.
Interesting.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. seratonin
Is seemingly responsible for all things that ail us in life. I don't mean to seem cynical here. Biological research into depression is extremely important. I do wonder, however, why one thing after another seems to be caused by a failure in seratonin uptake. This may be a function of the media's poor reporting rather than what scientists actually conclude.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. I've had severe depression for years, yet I turned toward Dems.
Of course, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors don't work on me. The only thing that sort of did was Strattera, which increases nor-epinephrine in the brain.

Unfortunately, it's hard to separate situational depression from indwelling depression these days. I've been half nuts since Nov. 3.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Ladyhawk
I'm sorry to hear about your depression. I know what it's like, so I didn't meant to imply depression isn't a biological disease. Mine was a random, and not very interesting, comment on how much seratonin is discussed in the media, for all kinds of things besides depression.
I hope the medication continues to work for you so that you are able to feel better.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. I have thought the same for years
I worked w/ a lady that was a fundamentalist and Repub. she couldn't have children and thought that everyone should feel sorry for her. she spoke about it nonstop! On top of that she was ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS saying she was sick. I don't think I can ever remember a day that she said she was feeling good. she was also admittedly an anorexic as a child. I don't know if she took anti-deppressants, but she was the biggest downer I have ever been around in my life. She expressed oure hatred for any liberal idea I ever expressed. she thought I was a horrible mother because I din't take my kids to church. She told me my 17 year marriage was doomed because I had lived "in sin" w/ my husband for 4 years prior to marriage! I would call her depressed every bit as much as I would call her depressing!
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I know TWO stupid, jingoist, sentimental goppers
on another message board who are the BIGGEST HYPOCHONDRIACS there ever were -- and it's all those fake-o "autoimmune disorders" that a good lay and a walk in the park could cure, like "fry-bo-my-gila-bla-bla-bla." They, too, have the "poor me," syndrome, and were both dumped by their husbands for some younger woman and work at some administrative job -- their whole life is rot from the top down from unscrupulous men, shitty pay and consumer illness, and yet, they still support the consumer status bullshit quo and male-centric logic 100 percent.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Do you have even a minimal idea
of what an autoimmune disorder is? Can you name any? Do you know the symptoms? The damage they do? ANYTHING?

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Yeah, autoimmune disorders are kind of like...you know, real?
lupis, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, etc.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And if I feel pain from my herniated discs, why shouldn't I occasionally discuss it? Sorry if my pain offends you.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Let me explain
I don't think all autoimmune disorders are fake and YES I DO happen to know them -- there are all kinds of them -- some, like those who suffer from MS are clearly not faking, but this fibromyalgia thing -- and some people's "allergies" are kind of shaky, in my opinion.

I have a lot of aunts. I have a lot of fat aunts. I have a lot of fat, depressed aunts. I have a lot of fat, depressed aunts who like to buy little figurines and put them in curio cabinets.

And they hurt. They hurt from head to toe. They hurt all day and all night, and they have a regimen of pills that looks like a pack of M&Ms.

EVERY person I've met, online and off, with some of the more vague autoimmune disorders is out of shape, eats terribly, has a crappy home life and a crappy job, and they LOVE to talk about their pain. They bitch like they've got a stage IV malignancy in every major organ.

I have known a few people with "allergies" and "disorders" who went to some crack pot "body talk" doctor, who hit them on the arms a few times, and gave them some vitamins -- and they were MAGICALLY CURED.

A disease only gets to be a disease when someone decides to label it a disease -- some of these diseases are "psychological diseases brought about by unhappiness and lack of activity," -- and they can cause real pain -- no doubt -- but I know too many middle-aged women -- and ALL of them are fat and live in ranch houses, basically -- who revel in their "autoimmune disorder" for the attention that it gives them, and too many women in small communities diagnosed one after the other. It's called "selling you the disease, then selling you the cure," and it's the same with obesity and the gastric bypass.

THAT SAID, I was being a little tounge-in-cheek, and I DO recognize that there are some autoimmune disorders that are serious, and real, and are painful, and I wouldn't wish them on anyone -- though some people do their best to "complain" themselves into the club.
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. The answer that Republicans are abusive.
Think of the Dems and Repugs as being in a domestic abusive relationship. The Repug is constantly going to beat on the Dem because that just how they think. There's nothing that can be done about this. It's just the way he...er, I mean, they are. On the other hand, the Dem is constantly trying to see what they have done wrong. Is it the morale values? Maybe I've aligned myself too close to the Gays. I'll just try harder.... I know that my husband....er, I mean, the Repugs will see me trying to please him...er, I mean them.

This is an abusive relationship. Just walk away from the Repugs. We need a safe house!
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. I wouldn't doubt that there are
I know for me, it's more than just being on one side of various issues. It's a morality thing. I'm very empathetic and I genuinely care about people. I'm also somewhat of a fighter against perceived wrongs, which I also feel is a moral trait. There are many arguable, gray areas in politics but there are also absolutes. What divides us on the absolutes boils down to character and morality.

So no, I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out that biologically some Democrats are different from Republicans, especially if you were to study two people who were informed yet varied greatly on their opinions of the same topics.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. No
I am writing a response right now to your question based on historical and recent evidence. I should post it within an hour. It is currently 2:07pm CST.

Please keep this kicked. I think this could be a lively debate!!!
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks for the feedback
:toast:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. doesn't have to mean it's biological

In people who play violine very well, the area in the brain that controls the hands is more developed.
Looks like the structure of the brain changes depending on 'training'.

So the difference between staunch republicans and -democrats may be more psychological in nature, having to do with how people were raised and such (authoritive vs nurturing family).
This would also explain the fact that sometimes a republicans "sees the light" and 'converts'. The biological-based theory does not explain that.
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xerox Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. nope
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. I dunno, NoSheep ..........
My wife is one of the most fearful, fretting sorts I can imagine, but she is even to the left of me and very much a critical thinker. If your postulation is that fear drives the republican mind, then she'd have to, by that measure, be a real right winger .... and nothing could be further from the truth.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. This is long but it sums up my views pretty well....
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 05:28 PM by Stand and Fight
On the Innate Morality of Democrats and Republicans

Our personal politics are influenced by a complex amount of experiences in our lives that serve to color our attitudes. In fact, this statement can be made in regards to any amount of social and political issues. To say that Democrats are either this or that because of factor x or y is to ignore historical changes in political ideology. To conjecture that Republicans are either this or that is to wholly ignore significant x and y factors in history. Democrats have not always been on the moral high ground, and likewise neither have Republicans. Both parties have had their share of political scandal, collective incompetence, and malfeasance. An examination of historical and present day facts will yield the conclusion that it is not Democrats or Republicans that differ but people and their experiences in life.

History. History is replete with examples of both great and shameful deeds carried out by both Democrats and Republicans. One glaring example I can point to in relation to this idea is Abraham Lincoln and his political party. It's well known that our present day Republican party is a direct descendent of Lincoln's own Republican Party. Let’s take a short detour into the history of the Republican Party by examining the reason behind its founding.

Political realignment has occurred several times in our country’s history; however, one of the most significant realignments resulted in the birth of the present day Republican Party. While there is dispute as to the actual time and date as to when the party was “born”, one date in particular stands out from the rest. On July 6, 1854, the name Republican was adopted at a convention of nearly extinct old parties. The birthplace of this decision was in Jackson, Michigan, and what likewise consider the birthplace of the Republican Party. Collectively this hodge-podge of dying parties decided to build a new party whose foundation would rest upon “the sole issue of the non-extension of slavery.” However, similar conventions were occurring all over the country, and by the middle of 1854 the Republicans were just beginning to stand up on its own two legs. Actually, you could say it was standing up on many legs since it consisted of Whigs, the Southern conservative belief system, and deep-seated abolitionist. The uniting factor of the fledging Republicans was based upon one single factor – an absolute resolve to block the extension of slavery.

This is hard to believe given their current stance on a variety of social, economic and political issues. Nonetheless, it was the Republicans and NOT the Democrats who favored keeping our nation together despite distinct differences on controversial issues of the day -- I need not emphasize the controversial views on slavery that lead to the Civil War. Lincoln, a Republican, made the revolutionary step to abolish the system of slavery; however, there are times -- especially in light of recent events -- that I am prone to wonder if some present day Republicans wouldn't like to bring back such institutions of human degradation. (To be totally honest, there are also Democrats that have given me occasion to wonder along the same lines.) Nonetheless, I digress. Jumping forward into the years directly after the Civil War, in 1866 the Republicans spearheaded the 14th Amendment and passed it despite the resistance of Lincoln’s successor, Democrat Andrew Johnson. The landmark amendment stated:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The year 1870 saw the passage of the Civil Rights act, which was then followed by the 15th Amendment that guaranteed "the right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color or previous conditions of servitude." (It would be nice if the Republicans had actually observed this amendment in recent and past elections, but unfortunately, as voter testament will tell, they have not.)

Stepping forward into the 20th century we come to the Civil Rights era, and it was during this time that our party heavily redeemed itself for its lack of action during the issue of slavery. Had it not been for such Democratic leaders as Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Baines Johnson, civil rights would not have advanced as far as they have. Harry S. Truman insisted on the desegregation of the armed forces. Let’s not forget the 1957 Civil Rights Act that was put forward by Republican president Dwight Eisenhower, and was voted against by John F. Kennedy because of political reasons. The 1957 bill aimed to ensure that all African Americans could exercise their right to vote, and it is widely believed that Eisenhower only put the bill forward to gain the Black vote. The Senate leader at that time, Lyndon Baines Johnson, opposed the bill for political reasons as well, as he felt that it would tear his party, the Democrats, apart. Eisenhower would introduce a subsequent bill the following year as a reaction to violent bombings of churches and schools in the South. Southern Democrats – today referred to as Dixiecrats – were staunchly opposed to the bill, which they perceived as intruding upon state affairs. Nonetheless, the bill became an act in 1960and upon passage introduced penalties for those who obstructed others attempts at registering to vote or in their actual attempts to vote. It was a weak piece of legislation and actually accomplished almost nothing for Civil Rights – Eisenhower’s bid at civil rights was a miserable failure. The history is lengthy so I won’t go into it, but the 1964 Civil Rights Act was sown during the presidency of John F. Kennedy and passed during that of his successor Lyndon Johnson – a fitting redemption for both of them. It was the actions of these great men – Democrats all – that dramatically altered the political and social equality scenes in our country. It was Republicans that often strongly opposed were lackadaisical at best in their support of civil rights issues during the 1950s and 1960s. Let’s not forget however that it was the Republicans that put forward the first civil right legislation into the Constitution.


There are recent issues, however, that do not paint our party in the prettiest light. Let's look at the issue of gay rights in our country as an example. Recently bans on gay marriage passed in significant majorities in ELEVEN states: Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Utah. Based on your argument that Democrats value critical thinking and logic, ask questions about right and wrong, care more about the world community more, and that we've an ability to look at "the issues" in a more or less unselfish way there arises an obvious contradiction in your argument. This arises from the fact that of the eleven states Michigan and Oregon are “blue” states; that is, they voted Democratic in the presidential election. Like it or not, writing a ban on marriage between two people is just short of banning inter-racial relationship or even inter-religious relationships. This, my friend, is discrimination written into the law, and Democrats and Republicans in all eleven states voted it into law. John Kerry has publicly stated that he is against gay marriage, but that he would not put his beliefs into law. (I only wish that the Democrats in the aforementioned states had followed his lead.) If Democrats are so prone to look at “the issues” in a more or less unselfish way, – and that phrase in itself represents hypocrisy – how is it that Democrats supported putting down minority members in their respective states simply because they are the majority?


Your argument that Democrats are somehow – and although you do not say it, you imply it – morally superior is just as villainous as when some Republicans claim that Democrats, liberals, or progressives are without morals. It’s just as bad as when they say we are somehow unpatriotic, or American, because we do not support what some Republicans perceive as a “just” war in Iraq. While we are on the issue of Iraq, let’s not forget that it was also Democrats that stood by the “Chimperor” took us into war in Iraq. I am perfectly aware that they relied upon the information that the president had provided – and in most cases not provided – them, but also keep in mind that there were both Democrats and Republicans who voted against the war in Iraq because they found Bush’s claims lacking in hard evidence.

I will concede that the current crop of Republicans is a nasty bunch, but in my nearly thirty years of life I have seen plenty of actions by them, both privately and publicly, that lead me to believe that there really are “compassionate conservatives.” Bush, however, is most definitely NOT one of them, as he continues to promote an unjust war in Iraq that has resulted in untold numbers of deaths. The Republicans in the last eight years have presented a most despicable face to the world lately. Their recent attempts to change rules to protect one of their own (the toady Delay), trying to put legislation forward to curb individual privacy (income tax inspection by Senators), and their persecution of one of the best president in my lifetime, William Jefferson Clinton, are surely not points of redemption.

At one time I was a Republican, but because of their behavior over the past eight years, I came to realize that the Democratic Party was more closely aligned with my personal ideals. The Democratic Party may not be perfect, and may appear somewhat schizophrenic because it is “big tent,” but, God help me, I love my fellow Democrats for their goodness. The amount of special interest groups under our tent can be a little annoying, and sometimes our rigidness on issues like school prayer or the display of something like the Ten Commandments can be almost as over-the-top as Ashcroft insisting that Lady Justice’s naked breasts be covered. But you know what? Nobody is perfect, and he that claims to be is probably the furthest from it. We’re a dysfunctional family, but we’re a hell of a lot more together than the Republicans who are not unlike a nest of carnivorous beast willing to eat their own if it means saving their own necks.

I believe it is the war in Iraq, irresponsible fiscal policy, selling out to corporation, rampant corruption, and an overtly zealous religious overtone that really influenced my transformation from Republican to Democrat. Among these the sickening war in Iraq has influenced me most. There is a time for war, but if you’re going to go to war, you have to do it for the right reasons. John Kerry lost respect in my eyes when he said he would still go to war based on what he knew, but he was redeemed when personal research revealed that the president has lied, not only to the American people, but also to the Congress. War is a nasty and terrible thing to comment to because it involves actual human sacrifice, and you can’t do it based upon outright lies to the people whom you serve when you only govern with the consent of the governed. Allowing far-right religious fundamentalism to influence public policy is a decision that has always led to oppressive and failed regimes. Quite honestly, if they continue their present course, they are headed toward an implosion that will not soon be forgotten.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, I see both good and bad in both parties for the reasons I’ve outlined above. It is entirely possible, though highly improbable, that I would switch back to being a Republican, but this is almost unlikely given the direction they’re taking. I adamantly feel that the Democrats, despite their lack of a spin at times, have the best interest of the “great silent majority” at heart – even when that majority has been blinded by lies and political machinations. The majority fails to see that their president has sold them out for corporations and big interest groups, has fought against raising the minimum wage, seeks to kill social security (not privatize), and is not fighting for improved medical benefits for Americans. It is for these reasons, that Democrats are on the moral high-ground in my mind, and given present trends, will more than likely remain so the rest of the days of my present life (incarnation).

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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Most excellent post, Stand and Fight.
I encourage you to post this on its' own thread. I think it belongs in GDP and Editorials. I printed it out, and when I can speak rationally and with out animosity to my war rationalizing, Republican friend I may give it to her to read.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Yes, thank you. n/t
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. kick
:kick:
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. We have souls and they don't ??
:shrug:


:hippie:
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. How, then, do you account for converts like me? n/t
I was raised STEEPED in fundamentalist Christian / Republican "values," but I eventually found my way here. It took awhile, but here I am.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. Hayek's essay on why he is not a conservative needs to be tossed in here
"This brings me to the first point on which the conservative and the liberal dispositions differ radically. As has often been acknowledged by conservative writers, one of the fundamental traits of the conservative attitude is a fear of change, a timid distrust of the new as such,<5> while the liberal position is based on courage and confidence, on a preparedness to let change run its course even if we cannot predict where it will lead. There would not be much to object to if the conservatives merely disliked too rapid change in institutions and public policy; here the case for caution and slow process is indeed strong. But the conservatives are inclined to use the powers of government to prevent change or to limit its rate to whatever appeals to the more timid mind. In looking forward, they lack the faith in the spontaneous forces of adjustment which makes the liberal accept changes without apprehension, even though he does not know how the necessary adaptations will be brought about. It is, indeed, part of the liberal attitude to assume that, especially in the economic field, the self-regulating forces of the market will somehow bring about the required adjustments to new conditions, although no one can foretell how they will do this in a particular instance. There is perhaps no single factor contributing so much to people's frequent reluctance to let the market work as their inability to conceive how some necessary balance, between demand and supply, between exports and imports, or the like, will be brought about without deliberate control. The conservative feels safe and content only if he is assured that some higher wisdom watches and supervises change, only if he knows that some authority is charged with keeping the change "orderly."

"Why I Am Not A Conservative" F A Hayek

http://www.geocities.com/ecocorner/intelarea/fah1.html

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Hayek restates my idea that conservatives tend to have a fearfulness
that my democratic friends tend not to have. That was my point and I wondered if this could be illustrated in a study of their brains. I realize the way we are is a mixture of nature and nurture. I don't believe people are born republican...just tend towards that side of the spectrum for one reason or another. And as someone else noted here...even that can change for a variety of reasons. And, over time, what it means to be a republican or democrat also changes.
I just recognize a fear vs. a lack of it in MOST Repubs Vs. Dem's that I have observed.
Thanks to all for the thoughtful feedback.:hi:
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Economics 2 JK Galbraiths Annals of An Abiding Liberal
Edited on Thu Dec-02-04 03:41 PM by EVDebs
Great discussion ! Don't forget John Kenneth Galbraith's "Annals of an Abiding Liberal" either at http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Summaries/V69I3P85-1.htm

I also believe in the liberal mind's intrepid fearlessness as with Jefferson and his free marketplace of ideas. And as much of today's conservatism vs. liberalism concentrate upon economic theory, Liberals (aka progressives, Greens, Democrats) tend to be realistic in that we KNOW what goes up has to come down. In economics this is known as the business cycle. The neocons think the free market now can defy gravity !

The business cycle discussion can, however, get you killed. Just look what happened to poor old Kondratieff in the fomer Soviet Union. He dared to discuss how the business cycle's ups and downs could theoretically be fine tuned and possibly be controlled. This was anathema to Marxist ideololgy since it portended a 'perfection' of capitalist economics. Kondratieff was executed for this heresy see http://www.angelfire.com/or/truthfinder/index22.html and also
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/business.htm

Nowadays if you dare to point out that we are at a peak of a Kondratieff Wave in a description of the world economic cycle, you are just as likely to be "taken out" (maybe not literally but figuratively !) by a rabid capitalist neocon.

Thomas Frank's book "One Market, Under God" gives a great outline of this populist market ideology which the media is selling us. Too bad the myth of the populist stock market is common knowledge nowadays (see "The myth of the populist stock market" http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0108/p09s01-coop.html which contains this gem: "At the height of the boom, however, the bottom three-quarters of American households owned less than 15 percent of all stock. Barely a third of households hold more than $5,000 in stock. Most Americans have more debt on their credit cards than money in their mutual funds." )


These business cycle theories play nicely with Kevin Phillip's "Wealth and Democracy" ideas. In his book he shows that concentrations of wealth within the empire du jour (he discusses the Dutch, Spanish, English economic empires, with a finger pointed at the US today...) as the leading cause of its demise. He might also have just as well looked at Leviticus 25 and the fifty year cycle of Year of Jubilee where all debts and wealth was reallocated !

In further economic thought inspired by a Malthusian view that resources are limited, we come to the idea of a Steady State Economy. John Stuart Mill, Leon Walras, and more recently Herman Daly and Kenneth Boulding are names I've seen pop up as leading thinkers in this train of thought. A Nobel Prize even went to Wassily Leontieff in the early 70's for his ideas on Input/Output Economics which is related to the idea of a Steady State. It comes down to 'is land the limit to growth or is it capital' ?

Dynamic population growth, with countries like India and China, along with the impending problem of Peak Oil and what will replace it in powering the new world economic system ("Globalization" ?) make me think that unless something that can power the oil driven system is found soon we will of necessity have to revert to more local economies and become more locally self sufficient. Is capital the limit to growth or is 'land' (resources) ?

We will find out soon. See "Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy" by Robert L. Hickerson , March 1, 1995
http://www.oilcrisis.com/hubbert/hubecon.htm
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BernieBear Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. Probably have different Myers Briggs Results
If your familar with Myers Briggs and other Psychological tests, I bet that there would be statistically signiicant different distributions among the two different populations of political ideologies.

That said, I'm an ENFP most of the time.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Good Point! I took that once..it seemed very accurate to me.
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bettys boy Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. Yes - levels of aggression
Republicans accept the premise that traits related to aggression and dominance promote the common good, particularly with respect to economic behavior (e.g the entrepreneurial drive).

The economic libertarians are aided in this by their religious wing, who see entrepreneurial success as being inextricably linked with the Christian virtue of strict self-discipline (explicitly linking corporate behavior to sin is a weakness begging for our exploitation, IMO).

In short, don't restrain the self-disciplined alpha males who build industries and empires and everyone will be better off. This is their moral framework.
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