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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:40 PM
Original message
People are Out There Working for Us...Everywhere! DU Christians Take Heart
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 07:44 PM by KoKo01
I wasn't quite sure where to post this. But one of my Repug Religious Fundies that I converted to vote for Kerry is in a total state of Rebellion thinking he should never have voted Dem..because we let him down..and he's in a battle with his Religious Fundie Father who lives in Georgia and is a sucessful Dentist who doesn't believe in anything unless Rush, O'Lielly or Fox says it's true. This "Editorial" from this website is fantastic...please read it!!!!! And, check out the incredible website!

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From the Director: "The Jesus Seminars" coming to you! An Advocate for Religious Literacy..

The election results of 2 November 2004 make it clear that Westar has not fulfilled its promise to raise the literacy level in American society. Whatever your politics, you will have to admit that the fundamentalists and moralists carried the day. 'Moral values' undergirded by Christian conviction drove the debate and decided the election. Those values, unfortunately tell us a great deal about the righteous right and its real values.

In his New York Times editorial on 3 November 2004, Garry Wills announced that election day was the day the Enlightenment in America went out. The torch of the great American secular tent was snuffed out. It is now clear that a minority of evangelical Americans want to dictate what the rest of us believe and how to act. The wall separating church and state has been breached and is in danger of being torn down. It will be a sad day and the end of the republic if that were to happen.

Garry Wills asks: "Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?" He is referring of course to the poll that indicated 83% of Americans believe in the virgin birth, while only 29% believe in evolution. That statistic indicates, among other things, that the dogma of the virgin birth has become a secular artifact rather than merely a Christian dogma. But it also indicates how scientifically illiterate Americans have become. And it tells us once again how woefully ignorant the general population is of the advances in biblical and theological scholarship since Copernicus.

The tenor of the political campaign reveals another troubling aspect of the current climate: the loss of civility. The campaign was down and dirty. Negative ads were apparently effective. Only John McCain complained about the attack on his Vietnam record. The decline of civility is reflected prominently in much of current TV programming, which appeals to the lowest elements in human societies. In that element, pornographic reporting, emotional demonstrations, shouting matches, name calling, and worse are exceedingly common. The presidential rhetoric and ad exchanges were mostly at the level of Jerry Springer and even Oprah. And the Congress, too, seems to have given up decorum for name calling and foul language. The Vice President seems especially good at it.

A third huge factor in the election campaign was the secret conviction, on the part of most Americans, that they too will someday be millionaires. The burst of the dot.com bubble does not seem to have burst the bubble of that dream. These unfounded utopian aspirations are no doubt the product of more than a half-century of unrelieved affluence. People in America and in all industrialized societies have become extravagantly self-indulgent. Americans in particular have become soft. We embrace the comfort of plenty and endorse the false self-esteem that comes with self-assigned moral superiority.

In the corporate world, the bottom line gets shorter, now down to one quarter and often one month. There seems to be little concern for market share, quality of product, customer satisfaction and service, and the long term prospects of the company. CEOs and CFOs have only one goal: to make themselves rich. Laborers tend to adopt similar interests: money, fringe benefits, coffee breaks, vacation time, retirement. Too often there is little or no concern for product and company integrity.

Current corporate culture is driven by the prospect of instant riches, ethics be damned. Think of the energy crisis and the collapse of Enron. Think of the enrichment of Halliburton through the Iraq crisis. Recall Tyco and even poor Martha Stewart sitting in her prison cell. The corporate disease threatens to upend capitalism. If the evangelicals are so concerned about moral values, where is there criticism of the reverse Robin Hood strategy: rob the poor to enhance the rich?

Americans are undoubtedly full of fear. No one in the campaign, on either side, advocated that Americans should go quietly about their lives, uncowed and unsullied by the terrorist threat. Reverting to fundamentalist assurances that God is in his heavens and all will be right with the world if we just embrace the moral convictions of the traditionalists is a way of hiding fear under the bushel of theistic reassurance. God does not send the rain on the just and unjust alike; God favors the just, especially if they are Americans.

Weak self-identity prompts people to flock to cults, to fundamentalisms, as a way of ascertaining their identities. We wear T-shirts and display license plates and bumper stickers to identify us because we do not know who we are.

Weak self-identity is betrayed in the text of so many issues with a sexual subtext. The Christian right believes that gay marriages will undermine the sanctity of marriage. Hey, I thought the divorce rate and the two-income family had already done that. I thought that the liberation of women was responsible for the decline of traditional marriages.

In a related trend, the Roman Catholic bishops insist that abortion and euthanasia are not negotiable, but keep silent about the priestly abuse of children in the sacred precincts of the church. The church still opposes contraception, although the vast majority of members practice it. We are deeply indebted to Augustine for this jaundiced view of sex that plagues our society.

The political campaign was a clarion call for us in Westar to reclaim the Bible, the Christian and Jewish legacies, and the moral high ground. We can do by salvaging the liberal legacy, practicing civility, becoming uncompromising advocates of economic and social justice, reestablishing an exchange with the sciences, reuniting the churches with their own creative scholarship, and expanding the parameters of our community as radically inclusive.

— Robert W. Funk, Director
Westar Institute
Santa Rosa, California
3 November 2004



See a list of articles on this site

See a list of book excerpts on this site

The Link to this Site:

http://www.westarinstitute.org/index.html



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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. the religious extremists hate Funk and the Jesus Seminar
and have for many years.
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Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does the website have anything to do with your friend or
is that a separate subject?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes, it does. My friend is very religious GA Baptist believes in Rapture
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 08:15 PM by KoKo01
but I worked on him for months and had him voting for Kerry...but his environment is pulling him back. They are laughing at him and calling him a Socialist for supporting Kerry and telling him his friend (ME) has led him astray.

I sent him the article I posted because (you have to understand, I'm an Episcopalian...we have different views than Baptists and really different views from Armageddonists) Anyway...my Episcopalian "intellectual view" of Jesus and organized religion sort of appealed to my religious fundie friend...until Kerry seemed to lose. I'm trying to bring him back but his Dad is on his back night and day sending him those Freeper type E-Mails trying to pull him back. (He's a smart tough, intelligent guy...but he's been mislead by his relatives and how he grew up)

I thought this website was really great. My friend can quote the Bible in a second, doesn't like Gay Marriage (and probably anything about gays...but I'd manage to get him to understand "civil unions" at least) and yet he's very open to new thought. It's just that he's "backsliding." I thought some folks here on DU might have friends or family members who need some support to go against the Falwell types. The website I posted seemed to be a REVELATION! to me at least of a way to reach these folks..:shrug:
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Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Well, family can be a very strong influence.
This will be a hard battle for you. I have some in-laws who are very much like that and I was told never to send anymore anti-Bush emails again and that they liked Bush. I'm still mad about it but I am cordial to them. I only see them when I have to anymore. Their attitude just rubbed me the wrong way.

I did convert a religious fundie in my precinct, though! I was going door-to-door canvassing and ran across this lady who had her reservations about Bush and was of the Armageddon type. I'm also of the Armageddon type but I don't believe in the rapture. I was able to talk to her about my beliefs regarding Armageddon issues and then I was able to give her this article (you might have seen it before because I got it off of DU):

http://dfa.bmgbiz.net/evangelical.html

I went back on a second lit drop and she happened to be there and I had the article just in case. She was there so I gave it to her. I'll never really know who she voted for but I was left with an impression that she understood what I was saying and didn't want to vote for Bush.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks...will check out your link. We sometimes miss the true feelings of
folks who really do believe in basic Biblical thought here on DU...and my friend although an Armageddonist..had a bad experience with a really fundie "cult" (he calls it) when he went through a bad divorce in his early 20's. He needed the really fundie types for refuge. He's a musician so he started playing in a band at his church. They loved him up for awhile, but he started to have some problems with them. He won't tell me more, but he broke away...yet as far as he's come...sometimes I still see that even though he broke away he still carries some of that group with him. We are very different...but I've been able to talk to him and help him out in some way. But, how can I really defend our party when I, myself, am so upset and disillusioned. I don't need to fall back on religion...but he does because it was his rock when he had his divorce so he will backtrack...
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Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Print out that article and tell your friend
this is from another fundie person who happens to be of the Democratic party. It's from the Democracy for America website, I believe. I never found an article that came so close to explaining my views politically and religiously in relationship to one another. The article speaks in a more "fundamentalist" language that the more zealous people of faith would understand. It is backed up with alot of scripture which helps.

In that article, one of the quotes from the bible says we (people, leaders, nations) are to be a light that shines to the world to draw all men unto Him. Then it redirects to Bush and presents the question of whether or not Bush has drawn all men unto Him (God). There is no denying that Bush has divided and repulsed many nations rather than the opposite, and yet he projects to the world he is a Christian and is a representative of the image of Christianity. Not good. It's just a really good article. Send it to your friend.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. This is an article that he would understand and appreciate...thanks!
I scanned it and it's the kind of literal biblical thought he would appreciate. I think the article is interesting. And I see where he would understand it better than I, since I'm not a literal interpreter of the Bible from my own background.

I hope this will help him. I hate to lose him...
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. I love them. I have their books. They keep me sane. Thank you
for the link, sweetie.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. With all due respects
I think they are on the wrong track.
They seem to be of the impression that they can win back the majority of people by getting them to accept the negative. that is, that science is predominant and the virgin birth must then be wrong.
They will get nowhere with that attitude except make the fundies even more solid on there own side.
It is a shame that the obvious way is not apparent to them. All that is necessary for them to do is accept the fact that the teachings of Jesus backs up the liberal side. All they need to do is preach the gospel that Jesus preached. They do not need to get tied up with science to do that.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Do you mean the article and website I posted or the "fundies?" I was
confused by your post? :shrug:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Sorry for the confusion
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 08:59 PM by zeemike
But consider this statement;

Garry Wills asks: "Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?"... But it also indicates how scientifically illiterate Americans have become. And it tells us once again how woefully ignorant the general population is of the advances in biblical and theological scholarship since Copernicus.

They set themselves up on the side of science to prove a negative... that a 'virgin birth" is imposable so therefore that part of the Bible is wrong. (and if that part is wrong so must all of it be questioned) until there is only a vacuum to be filled with science I would guess.
It is a failed precept of the so called Liberal religious community ( the ones that feel that they have advanced biblical and theological scholarship) that will not convince anyone but the atheist and agnostic or those that feel as they do.

The real answer is simple just preach the gospel as Jesus preached it.
If you were to get a red letter Bible where the words of Jesus are all in red and preached only that liberalism would have a moral leg to stand on, a good one at that. .
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. aaarrrrrg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. LOL's would you like to come back and tell us more about how you feel?
I didn't get it...unless it's total frustration. :D
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. check out this ad, banned by CBS/NBC from United Church of Christ
CBS and NBC have refused to air an ad saying that,
like Jesus, the United Church of Christ welcomes everyone.
"Too controversial"

http://www.wfn.org/2004/11/msg00231.html

view ad at
http://www.stillspeaking.com/default.htm
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. WHAT! okay...I'll check out the ads. But CBS and NBC are now the
arbiters of what kind of "religious ads should be posted?" GACK!!!!!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick.....................
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