WTF is up with the DNC vs DLC this type talk is self-destructive & frankly

[xultar]

disturbing. From my point of view any one who tries to bring up DLC/DNC crap is trying to divide us. I don't think we need to be concentrating on this stupid petty bullshit right now.

We have BIGGER issues to deal with. The BFEE is apparently trying to bring back the Nazi that right now. So while you are busy arguing over DNC/DLC they are working to eliminate our freedoms.

Just keep it up! Alright? Just keep it up and pretty soon none of this petty DLC/DNC INFIGHTING bullshit won't make a difference at all.

PICK YOUR BATTLES PEOPLE!!!!

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I respectfully disagree

the DLC/liberal power struggle within our party is VERY important and one of the most important struggles we have to fight. The DLC has moved so far to the Right of traditional Democratic values that the Left and Right wing of our party cannot even create a sound specific platform or plan of action. Kerry had lots of "plans" but not much detail. This is the same for our entire party becasue we have two spectrums so totally opposed to one another in ideology. The GOP is able to push strong agendas like the "ownership society" or the "contract with america" and we are left in the dust.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. "ownership society"

most americans don't even own their own fucken car...

[xultar]

4. Let's say you are right. Let's dump them. WE STILL LOSE.

Then what?

BTW your statement 'Kerry had lots of "plans" but not much detail.' Sounds like the Rethugs talking points during the elections against Kerry.

Now I'm no Kerry Lover but come on even I didn't go there.

[ever_green]

214. Says who? Listen, most people didn't like Kerry, thye just hated Bush

I don't know anyone who really liked Kerry.

[lojasmo]

221. I know ONE person who liked Kerry. N/T

[Fla Dem]

245. Sorry, while I hated Bush...loved Kerry. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

252. I liked Kerry

[Cheswick2.0]

2. DNC and DLC are two different things

The DNC may be lackluster and sluggish, but the biggest threat to party unity is the DLC. You really should read up on them. They are my battle and the should be yours.

[xultar]

7. You aren't getting my point. Even though Rethugs have a moderate

wing they still go with the party.

You can fight them all you want. The division will always be there. We will still lose.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. you are not getting my point

both parties are moving right. Republicans embrace their base and listen to it. We don't need to be the other corporate party. We have tried it and we keep losing. Do you ever want to win another election? Then wise up about the DLC.

We don't need to move right to win. The republican party will also move right and we will lose anyway. You are so wrong it is astounding.

[janx]

42. The DLC are not elected. They are the party "elite," and they

have been granted too much power. Please read about them. It's beyond ridiculous--you will see this.

[Beacho]

5. Sorry dude

But the DLC is a boil that needs to be lanced and it needs to be done now.

I'm a vehement anti-DLCer and I don't see it as being divisive but a necessary, painful process that needs to be accomplished or the party will be over.

Those divisions already exist.


I'm sorry, but I will no longer tolerate being told to shut the fuck up for the sake of unity.

[xultar]

9. What are you going to do spend more time in-fighting than beating the

Rethugs? :wtf:

[Cheswick2.0]

27. They are the RETHUGS

[sendero]

157. You know...

... it has taken me time, but I'm coming around.

I think the DLC strategy of moving ever rightward, whether it be a legitimate attempt to remain politically relevant or a pernicious attempt to co-opt the party, is misguided and this influence must be stemmed.

Fuck the "party unity" nonsense, if we don't kick these moneychangers out we'll never win another election until the country is nothing but rubble.

[janx]

54. I won't either. I won't tolerate UCC censorship in the name

of Bushism, and I won't tolerate this kind of thing either.

(I have read some of your posts.) ;-)

[greenohio]

210. Thats right. Sometimes that foot just needs to be shot.

[RC]

6. Kind of hard to go along with the DLC/DNC

when they are part of the problem. We need to forget the Left/Right -Liberal/Conservative BS and concentrate in the Correct/wrong way things are being done and who are doing which.

[Downtown Hound]

8. We are picking our battles

We are attempting to clarify our position. Most of us seem to be against the war in Iraq, against the erosion of our civil liberties, against voter fraud, pro-environment, and pro-worker, pro-choice, and pro-education. It is the DLC that has been sending out mixed messages about these things. So this is very much our battle, and one we need to fight.

[BayCityProgressive]

12. I am not attacking moderates

and you are correct there always will be both liberals and moderates in the party and I think that can be a very good thing. The REAL problem is the DLC is not moderate at all. they are basically a gateway for big business to take over our party. There ARE moderate Democrats. Howard Dean is a moderate on many many issues and I have no qualms with him at all. It is only this corporatist element that I think needs to be done away with.

[xultar]

16. Who the hell isn't a corporatist or who won't be? n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

what?

WTF does that mean? Do you know what some one means when they say corporatist?
It means a politician who is willing to take influence money from corporations in exchange for doing thier business rather than the business of citizens.

[charlie]

50. Yeah, I'm scratchin' my head too

If we're all destined to be corporatists, why didn't someone tell me sooner? I could've just saved the headache of being a Democrat and become a business shark long ago.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. Do you think they will do it by implanting computer chips in our brain?

:shrug:

[dogman]

93. No, they,ll put Walmarts in your neighborhood.

The only people who wont be beholden to the corporations will be the homeless or the inmates, who will be working for the corporations.

[xultar]

55. Don't you think all politicians do it to some extent ? Yes, yes they do.

No one is an angel in this thing.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. exactly

[Julien Sorel]

19. Which one of these things

has the DLC sent out "mixed messages" on?


Prediction: the DLC takes a different stance than you would like on something, for example, NAFTA, and that's a "mixed message" about workers to you.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

28. What I can't get over is the parroting of Bush talking points and

phrasing: "Mixed messages."


During the campaign, literally every Bush talking point and insinuation was brought up here and Kerry was attacked with them; it still goes on. I don't think these people are trolls, I simply think they are weak minded and lack the wit to think their way through the propaganda.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. And they would tell you to look in the mirror, I am sure.

To stand up for one's beliefs is to be lauded as courage, not weak mindedness where I come from.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. don't worry Mrs Grumpy

it is just the last dying gasps of the elephant sitting in the middle of our party

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Downtown Hound]

46. I see, so now anyone who offers up any

criticism of the DLC is a troll? Look, we're not robots here. We have beliefs and dreams for the kind of country we want, and turning ourselves into the unity police isn't going to help any.

on edit: sorry, this was meant to be in response to reply #24.

[xultar]

51. Nope, that has nothing to do with it I'm not Pro DLC or Con DLC n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

58. then you are wasting everyones time because you don't

understand what the problem is.

[xultar]

68. What I do understand you'll never get. The Black community has gotten

NOWHERE.

WHY we spend more time fighting each other than we do attacking the real problems in our community.


That is what I understand. That is what I see here.

That is where we are headed. That is where we will end.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. what does that have to do with corporatism?

:crazy:

[Forkboy]

84. Even stranger is how does she think corporatism will help her community?

:shrug:

[xultar]

86. While we are fighting each other the THUGS are legislating us into

irrevelancy.

That is what I'm saying. My original post isn't PRO or CON DLC. I SIMPLY STATED THAT THIS PETTY IN-FIGHTING IS NOT GOING TO HELP US.

[Cheswick2.0]

98. sorry, some of us believe in the democratic party and populism

Why not just switch to the republican party if you love their aggenda so much?

[xultar]

104. How old are you? I just wanna know, you can PM me. n/t

[Forkboy]

113. How old are YOU?

great googley moogley....condescend much?

[xultar]

122. I'm 35. I have 3 kute Chihuahua's, I'm single, My B/f is Muslim from

Morocco. You could steal me away if you like my kids.

[Forkboy]

131. awww man,no fair injecting cuteness into this thread!

:spank:

And you're younger than both myself and Cheswick.

[xultar]

135. Hey I love older men. n/t

[noiretextatique]

249. that's nonsense...except it does accurately describe bill cosby's

latest penchant for talking about poor black people to upper middle-class black people. our nowhere percentage of voting against the fascists' agenda: 89% in this election. yeah...a lot of good that has done us with some in the democratic party discounting our votes, while chasing after soccer moms and office park dads. a common fallacy: our communities problems are only our problem, and not connected to the policies of our govenment...it's like saying we really aren't citizens of this country. too bad so many still agree.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

83. When I reached out, I got kicked in the backside...

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. And the funny thing is, I'm not so very much on the left.

:shrug: It's pent up anger at some of us not being delighted with this year's candidate.

[Cheswick2.0]

100. Atually I think it plain old disruption

the freepers something to do now that the election is over.

[xultar]

130. Now, don't go stealin Forkboy, I saw him first. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. 16k+ troll. I'll gladly accept the title if it means I get to keep values

that used to be core to this party. I'm not in it for the farce of "electability" anymore. :hi:

[Downtown Hound]

40. Okay

Has the DLC ever formally condemned the Patriot Act? No. In fact, many Democrats voted for it. Has the DLC ever condemned the Iraq War? No. Again, many Democrats voted for it. Has the DLC ever taken a firm stance on how our schools are run or on issues such as standardized testing? Not to my knowledge, if you know differently please tell me. Has the DLC made issues such as global warming a priority? No.

But on all of these issues, they do offer half hearted criticisms when it suits their purpose or or even passionate condemnations when it is politically acceptable to do so. If we're talking about party unity, shouldn't we figure out what we're trying to be unified about? What are we trying to accomplish here? What alternative can we offer America to the disastrous policies of the Republicans? I'm a Democrat because I believe in the core principles of the party. But when the leadership turns its back on those principles, then it becomes rather hard to support them. People don't follow politicians. They follow leaders or what they perceive to be leaders. And firm, courageous leadership is what the DLC is lacking right now.

[Julien Sorel]

53. The DLC was for the Iraq war from the start.

So were many Democrats. That's hardly a "mixed message." the PATRIOT Act was a political bomb all anyone could do was duck and run from. The vote was something like 98-2 or some such. Again, hardly a mixed message, and the vast majority of Democrats supported it at the time.

The actual issue here is that the activist base of this party is out of step with the rank and file, while the DLC isn't. It is, frankly, folks like you who are trying to drag the party to the left, not the DLC trying to drag it to the right. There are opinion polls done that show the average Democrat is much more moderate than the average Democratic activist, yet the activists act as though they speak for the average Democrats, when they really speak only for themselves.

[Cheswick2.0]

57. yes they were for the war from the start because they are PNAC light

what the hell do we need democrats like that for?

[Downtown Hound]

73. So the DLC was for the Iraq War

yet they constantly offer up criticisms of it. I believe it was Daschle who criticised Bush on the eve of war that he'd failed at diplomacy. That's a mixed message. They say they're for it but then say, "Well, not really. Or, I sorta am for it." But you know what, who cares about whether it's a mixed message or not. Let's just say that there message is truly right wing. Me, being a leftist, why the hell should I support that? This thread was about how we should shut up and maintain unity. Sorry, but I'm not going to be unified with a party that doesn't stand for my beliefs. I think there's still hope in the Democratic party yet, which is why I haven't left them. But if you truly think the Democrats have a shot at ever winning back a majority without the left wing base of the party, good luck. I don't want to see the party split, but I can only support an organization that doesn't represent me for so long.

[Julien Sorel]

101. Holy Toledo.

I have never seen so many dishonest attempts at parsing in this place as I have in the past week.

They were for the war on principle (still are), and against the way Bush handled it. And they were consistent about it. Surely you've heard that before? You sound just like George Bush on the campaign trail. Did you notice that? What were they supposed to do, vote for the war resolution and then cheer every misstep of Bush's? Even the Republicans didn't do that, but the Democrats should have, in order not to send "mixed messages?"

I am seriously getting disgusted with the dishonesty and stupidity of this place. It makes me sick to see people humiliate and debase themselves, just to win some fucking argument on a message board.

[xultar]

108. You gotta PM me and help me to understand WTF happend in this

thread.
I'd really love it if you would. Puhleez! Merci!

[Forkboy]

116. LMAO...the irony

It makes me sick to see people humiliate and debase themselves, just to win some fucking argument on a message board.

[xultar]

124. Run away with me. Let's get hitched! n/t

[Julien Sorel]

139. Look up the word "irony."

Maybe next time you'll use it correctly.

Probably not, though.

[Downtown Hound]

118. You've got to be kidding me

Dishonest? I'm being completely honest. And if they truly were for the war on principle (which I don't believe for a second, they were for the war becuase they were too afraid to oppose it) then that doesn't warm warm me up to them any. I don't want to be associated with a party that invades other nations who've never attacked us because they think it's a matter of principle. Those are not my principles, and they're not those of millions of Democrats.

As for what the Democrats should have done in regards to the Iraq War. THEY SHOULD HAVE OPPOSED IT FROM THE START. It was the wrong war at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. And I really don't feel I'm humiliating or debasing myself any. I'm standing up for what I believe in. I wish the DLC would do the same.

[ScreamingMeemie]

125. Lame argument. Anyone with a brain knew what Bush was going to

do, and yet we're supposed to believe that our Congresspeople had the wool pulled over their eyes? I'm not buying. It was insider politics at work...fear of standing up plain and simple. Saying anything else is just as bad as swallowing Republican pap. Note that one can hold a discussion without resorting to what amounts to arrogant put downs.

[lojasmo]

222. If it makes you sick, stop reading your posts. N/T

[dionysus]

235. then leave

nt

[eridani]

173. If the activists don't do the work of running the party--

whothehell will? The Dems may as well dissolve if they have to pay everyone to do their phonebanking and doorbelling. The 'average' Democrats you are invoking aren't actually Democrats--they are people who often vote for Democrats and mostly don't do anything else.

[dionysus]

234. That's a steaming load of crap billy

nt

[Cheswick2.0]

56. The DLC has a very specific aggenda

They filter corporate money to candidates who will take stances beneficial to right wing america corporate interests. In exchange for that they are allowed to take their money off the top first. They will be able to continue this way just as long as we allow them to by voting for their candidates. So it is a nice scam for them. They don't care if democrats win or lose as long as they are getting paid.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. I agree that they are not sending mixed messages

Their message is clearly right wing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. Prediction: Me and millions of others like me go in search of a viable

third party if this downward, run to the center trend continues.

[Julien Sorel]

64. What am I supposed to do, cry?

Beg you to stay? Throw my principles overboard? FFS, political associations are voluntary. If there's another organization out there that you think will better allow you to realize your goals, you'd be crazy not to join it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. You will on election day. What am I supposed to do? Be okay with women

being treated as second class citizens? Be okay with gays losing any shot they've got at being recognized as deserving of rights? You keep that party and watch it run right into the ground. I've listened to the BS spewed by the money grubbing DNC/DLC long enough. No Billy...oops, Julien, Please don't beg me. I wouldn't want to be associated with that.:hi:

[Julien Sorel]

92. Please show me where the DLC/DNC (as though they are synonymous)

has said or done anything that implies they are abandoning gays.

[ScreamingMeemie]

106. We need to "re evaluate" our values. We need to "appeal" to the

Christians...we need to "appeal" to the conservative swing voter. We need to reassess our stance on Roe V. Wade in all cases. :puke:

[Julien Sorel]

110. Nothing in there about gays.

I never saw anything about Roe v. Wade, and I read all the center-left blogs a couple of times a week. In fact, the DLC has been consistently saying the party shouldn't move its positions at all, but needs to refine its message and delivery.

[ScreamingMeemie]

119. Hmmmm...and yet my Christian Catholic church openly supported

and funded Proposal 2 here. Which was the defense of marriage ammendment. We want to appeal to these people? Not me. It's why I left the church the day after our pastor showed us a video of our "sainted" cardinal spewing forth on this subject. Politics in the pulpit. The DMA is anti-gay, wouldn't you say????? :shrug: No pass Julien

[Julien Sorel]

128. So let me get this straight.

The DLC calls for using more religious language in speeches (like Clinton did), and because your church was for the DMA, that means the DLC is, too?

I need a beer. Fuck, I need a 12 pack.

[ScreamingMeemie]

132. Twist away Julien. These are the people the DLC is wanting to

appeal to...But twist it however which way you wish. My time has been wasted with those who are too frightened, or too busy, to stand up for real values. It's easy to spout off on a message board, eh?

[Julien Sorel]

136. Sorry, but I think anyone capable of

using the logic above is the one who is twisting.


We'll just chalk it up to a difference of opinion, and leave it at that.

[xultar]

137. Hey Black Churches did too. You wanna skip the black folk too?

Were gettin pretty low on votes if we kick'em all out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

142. If we're running to the center, and denying those who vote Democratic

anyway. I'd like to see a party that once again stands for what's right...not what is deemed "electable".

[itzamirakul]

224. Black Dems Must Clean Up Own House...

Headline from article at www.blackcommentator.com

<snip>
What must be broken is the Democratic Leadership Council's corporate grip on the party. Two presidential elections in succession, DLC-led tickets have acquiesced to Republican criminality, leaving Black voting rights strewn in the gutter...Kerry's near instantaneous concession was designed to pre-empt and silence the cries of the wounded so that the DLC might make amends with the Bush Pirates and rejoin the permanent government as a compliant, junior partner. However, history may record that Kerry's cavalier dismissal of the Democratic base's deep pain and righteous outrage was the fatal insult. Contempt is no basis for cohabitation. If the DLC's dead hand cannot be pried from the controls, the national Democratic Party is finished. The troops will disappear, and no amount of 527-type money will buy them back.<snip>

<snip>
With few exceptions, the Democratic Leadership Council/Blue Dog faction of the Congressional Black Caucus are elected by overwhelming majorities of Black voters who are totally unaware of the DLC's racist, corporate origins - or even that their representatives are members of the DLC. A Black progressive grassroots political education project of huge dimensions is clearly in order. <snip>

[xultar]

225. Puhleez, the Black Commentator was a Dean supporter back in

the primaries.

This appears to me to be just more of the same from then.

Nothing new here, nothing to see, move along.

I love it how white people post stuff from this single source the black commentator to prove a point.

I'm BLACK, I'm in the community. Blacks supported Edwards, Kerry, Clark, Gephardt, Graham etc. There isn't one voice that speaks for us. We are all different. So using the Black Commentator as a sole source isn't gonna get it for me.

[xultar]

134. Yes, they are driving around in cars with magnetic ribbons that say

DLC says to Abandon Gays. (bad joke, inapropriate)

There's that whole story about Clinton telling Kerry to dump the gay marriage issue, or union issue.
The story doesn't hold water because Kerry already stated that he was only for CUs. Not to mention more than 60% of the public is for CUs.

Only the dumb ass fundies are against CUs. But 1/2 of them sleep with their sisters so who's gonna listen to them anywaze.

[ScreamingMeemie]

143. It is? Wow. Funny how Prop 2 passed here in MI then.

Go figure.

[realisticphish]

247. how did Issue 1 pass in ohio

with 60 something percent, when we only lost (maybe) by 1%? how did it overwhelmingly win in columbus, which voted kerry?


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[acmavm]

23. You are so right. The DLC does whatever it has to do to maintain the

status quo. That is NOT what we need, especially right now. They provide as much cover for the bush* administration as any republican party entity does, and they do it in for their own self-interest. They don't want to say 'We're democrats and we DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF AND WE DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR!'

It's like having a cancer. You either let it grow and eat you up alive, or have it cut out. It may hurt for a while, but as long as you get it in time, you have a chance. Well, the DLC is becoming a cancer growing in the body of the democratic party. We are the party of compassion, that's US. We fight for human rights, civil rights, equal rights. We are the party of integrity, that's US. We don't lie like crazy to the country to push obscene, greedy, destructive policies down the throats of the American people. We tell the truth, and if the truth hurts so be it. We are the party who cares whether the aged, children, the homeless have a chance to find the help they need, that's US. The DLC has never come out swinging when the bush* administration pushes it's policies that favor only the top 1 to 2 percent. They just meekly get in line so as not to make waves. We are the party that makes waves when we see injustice, that's US. And we damn well need to take our party back from the leeches and bloodsuckers who have attached themselves to the body politic and feed of it while betraying the people who make up the democratic party.

[kohodog]

10. I'd agree if some DLC weren't PNAC signatories

http://nypress.com/17/48/news&columns/taibbi.cfm

Please check out this DU thread:

//www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2784312&mesg_id=2784312&page=

snip

"We've got to repudiate, you know, the most strident and insulting anti-American voices out there sometimes on our party's left... We can't have our party identified by Michael Moore and Hollywood as our cultural values."
— Al From, CEO, Democratic Leadership Council

"You know, let's let Hollywood and the Cannes Film Festival fawn all over Michael Moore. We ought to make it pretty clear that he sure doesn't speak for us when it comes to standing up for our country."
— Will Marshall, President of the Progressive Policy Institute, the think-tank of the DLC

>snip<

In addition to his duties as the president of the PPI, Marshall kept himself busy in the last few years. Among other things, he served on the board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, an organization co-chaired by Joe Lieberman and John McCain whose aim was to build bipartisan support for the invasion of Iraq.

Marshall also signed, at the outset of the war, a letter issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) expressing support for the invasion. Marshall signed a similar letter sent to President Bush put out by the conservative Social Democrats/USA group on Feb. 25, 2003, just before the invasion. The SD/USA letter urged Bush to commit to "maintaining substantial U.S. military forces in Iraq for as long as may be required to ensure a stable, representative regime is in place and functioning."


Now tell me we should follow like sheep. Time to rise up people!

[Selatius]

11. The DLC takes far, far too much corporate cash for my liking

They are corporatists in my book. I won't deal with those who stomp on the environment and workers across the planet, and as a result, I have a dim view of those who take corporate cash, not to mention rightwing think tanks, which are just another engine corporatists use to push their agenda of deregulation (no accountability) and limited government (a power vacuum for corporations to fill).

For far too many people in or around power these days, it's not God that drives them; it's greed, hate, power, and control. These are the things that can bring down the greatest nations from the inside-out.

[BayCityProgressive]

14. I view

Howard Dean as a traditional moderate: against gun control, for a balanced budget, does not support single payer healthcare but does support universal care in a more private form, supports civil unions but not gay marriage (poll after poll shows the majority of americans do favor giving gays many benefits so this is moderate). A traditional liberal to me is someone who supports gun control, single payer helathcare, higher taxes on the rich, human needs as more important than balancing the budget, very pro-union , pro gay marriage ect.

Now these two thoughts have much common ground such as civil liberties and the environment. The DLC is purely corporatist and do not fit either of these schools of thought.

[xultar]

13. A Lot of the people who push this here may not be truly down w the cause

a lot of them are TROLLS.

[kohodog]

32. You're probably right, but this is a discussion we need to have.

My brother is a centrist Dem and my sister and I are farther left. It was a bit awkward at thanksgiving although we all lamented the November outcome. I think that the Democratic center may be right of thre so called "Rockefeller Republicans." The Democratic vision is muddied these days and we need to come to grips with where we should go as a party. The DLC (and my brother) are embracing the Corporatist view, and I think that is destroying the fabric of the party, not to mention the fabric of America. I heard today (on AAR) that the Republicans out raised the dems in every category of giving (less than $100, less than $500, less than $1000, less than $100,000) except the one million dollar and more category. Yet overall the Democratic party raised more than the Republican Party. Something is wrong with this picture and we need to discuss it. If trolls lead us to it, so be it, they may be doing us a favor.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. the anti- dlc posters are not troll

the poster you are responding to wants you to be confused.

It is perfectly alright to be centrist. You can do that and not be a corporatist. You can be a centrist and be a populist. There is long tradition of that in the democratic party.

[xultar]

95. Re read my original post it isn't DLC or DNC, I mearly discussed

that the in-fighting was breaking the party apart.

[janx]

114. There is no major infighting between those. You don't even know

the difference.

GO AWAY. You are not genuine.

[xultar]

117. I'm not a genuine what? Go ahead, you can say it, What? Chihuahua?

fleece blanket?
Light bulb?
chicken dinner?

[janx]

250. xultar, I'm sorry for my earlier post to you. It was unkind.

But I think you're getting some things mixed up. This creates divisions where none exist.

The Dem party does need an overhaul. Heck, the American electorate needs an overhaul. Half of them don't even know what they're voting for.

Again, I'm sorry, and I hope you will accept my apology.

[eridani]

178. That's because the DLC doesn't want small donors

The Rethug small donors are crazy people who expect to vanish in the Rapture Real Soon Now, and actively enjoy other peoples' suffering and whose ideal society is essentially feudal. The Dem small donors are crazy people who want universal health care and serious control of outsourcing, fraud, and other manifestations of cheap labor conservatism.

The Rethugs actively court their crazy small donors, and the Dems kick theirs in the teeth every chance they get.

[Poor Richard Lex]

66. people in glass houses

or trolls under the bridge. Whatever.

[xultar]

120. Trolls don't live under bridges do they? Look @ my children r they trolls

Now could a Troll give birth to these kuties?

[Cheswick2.0]

69. funny I was thinking the same thing the other way around

[Q]

15. A question:

Just why do you think it has been so easy for the Bushies to install a virtual dictatorship and escape accountability? Hasn't it been so much easier without an opposition party to get in the way?

The 'battle' first must be fought against the Bush* appeasers, enablers and apologists in OUR OWN PARTY. It is they that are making it possible for the Bush* cabal to 'eliminate our freedoms' by not offering resistance to their dangerous policies and sometimes actually voting for them.

You can't fight the Bushies until you first eliminate the enemy within.

[xultar]

20. ???eliminate the enemy within??? Doesn't sound very liberal to me.

[Q]

29. I'm referring to those working WITH Bush* and against the Dem party...

...Sorry that the word 'enemy' offends you...but the DLC has become traitors to the Dem party. They are complicit in covering up and sometimes participating in the vast corruption and fraud of the Bush* administration.

You need to do a bit more research before you trash those trying to expose the DLC for what really are.

[xultar]

34. I'm not trashin' don't be a playa-hatea. I'm just sayin if we fought

the Thugs like we fought each other we may have one GE 2k4

[Q]

217. I understand what you're saying...

...but that's the same thing we're wondering about the DLC and their 'leadership'. Why aren't THEY fighting the Bush* Thugs and actively opposing their dangerous policies?

Could it be that they don't fight them because they agree with many of these policies?

[lojasmo]

223. True. Unfortunately, the DLC is about ENABLING the rethugs.

That's why they have to be taken out of the picutre.

I'm all about a diversified party. Centrism is fine, as is the radical left.

Unfortunately, an entire political arm of the democratic party is geared toward bringing the party to a place where we're undistinguishable from the republicans. The DLC is crap.

[Selatius]

35. Well, corporatists are certainly not our friends

I see no problem with getting rid of people who bow to corporate cash and pay them back in the form of weaker protections for workers, the environment, as well as advocating "market-based solutions" to problems, which is just another way of saying, "I advocate a corporate solution," as well as those who signed onto PNAC. It's the way towards taking back the party for the people.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

31. I am gonna have to agree with Q.

Lately, the public utterances of noted DLC'ers have been pretty indistinguishable from those of the RNC. That is bad form, and if I might wax schoolyardish, they started it.

Since they came to a position of promenance and primacy in the party, especially as far as crafting the public face thereof, we have gotten out balls kicked up to our throat. As Harry Truman said "When you give people a choice between voting Republican and Republican Lite, they will always choose Republican".

Another person once said: "At the end of the day, Al From is only in this for Al From".

The Democratic Party has got to get out of its Ivory Halls, out of the Palm Restaurant, out of their fog and out onto The Hustings. Constantly. In constant touch with the grassroots. They vote, the grassroots. Big Business just gives money.

Yes, we need money, but we need votes a hell of a lot more.

We gotta get tough, we gotta get nasty, we gotta get real. The DLC ain't real.

[ulysses]

17. the Democratic Leadership Council

does not constitute "stupid petty bullshit". Your mileage may vary.

[xultar]

22. I'm talking about the infighting is stupid petty bullshit. n/t

[Selatius]

37. It's a fight worth making if we're going to salvage our party for us...

the people, not the greedy and the wealthy.

[ulysses]

49. tell it to Al From. n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

103. what infighting? I am talking about a republican trojan horse n/t

[Forkboy]

18. If this battle isn't fought

none of the others will matter anyways.

[BayCityProgressive]

26. I just want to say again

I am not opposed to moderates in the party. Dean and Senator Byrd are both moderates and in my view excellent Democrats, even if I don't always agree with them. The DLC is not moderate at all. It is a neoliberal/neoconservative (the worst of both worlds) organization that was able to easily influence our party because our movement has grown weak and our party and political structure is horrid.

[dogman]

25. You are right about what is happening.

The problem with losing an election like we did is the division that follows a loss. That's why the sports metaphors about losers losing. Not a lot of splitting is needed for them to be the majority party. This is something people have to understand. We faced this down this election but we have to wonder what people will compromise to win. You can be right, you can be dead right, but in the end if your dead, how much is it worth being right. That's the art of politics and if we are all too self-centered, they will run our lives for a long time. We all complain about the simplicity of the Gop message, but that is why they are successful, they will sell out principles just to be winners. In the meantime they laugh at our consternation because they are in charge of our country and our lives. Everything has a price and we have to be smarter about what we are willing to pay to get back in the game. Everyone has a different tolerance level. You've seen the dilemma, good luck with the resolution.

[xultar]

30. It's funny, this is the same stuff the Thugs used to eliminate Clark

in the primaries,
remember the PNAC stuff people used to post and the DNC/DLC flame fests they used to post.

Same shit, different day.

[dogman]

38. We are going right where Rove wants us. It will be a one party rule.

The Rethugs will rule. If you want to be part of the system you will have to be a Rethug and you have to keep in mind, they are not democratic. Bushs will be our Husseins and The GOP will be the Baath Party.

[xultar]

48. Yup! I think it is KUTE. It is what I see in the Black Community...while

Jesse Jackson, Carol Mosley-Braun, and Al Sharpton were out all over the place goin every which-a-way saying they were campaigning for black folk and the black community.

Black preachers were telling their congregations in the south to vote for * and Rethugs.

So while we're over here fighting and pressing on each other and dividing our party into 2 additional parts (which will now be in thirds Greens, Dems and DLC) and not paying attention. The Thugs will be solidifying their power changing the rules, legislating themselves into cement.

Then we'll be like what the hell happened. If it weren't so sickening it would be funny.

[BayCityProgressive]

39. Well I really don't

have anythign else to say. I don't want moderates out of our party, and I am a liberal. I have nothign against moderate organizations in our party and if they can win us some elections, then more power to them! It is only the DLC I do not care for, and they are not a majority in our party. they are a think tank and that is all. Liberals have many voices int he party such as the Progressive Caucus and MoveOn.org. I just think that many of our party leaders bend to the DLC to get the corporate dollars and I think it is hurting us.

[Wind Dancer]

71. Well said!

The DLC does not represent the American people, they are corporate whores. If they are supporting the PNAC agenda, why would any moderate Dem support them?

[xultar]

79. While we are fighting each other, the Thugs are legislating us into

irrelevancy.

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. Well label me divisive then. We need a change within the party if

we are to succeed. :hi:

[Forkboy]

59. Well,you dont agree with xultar so you're obviously just a troll

After all,it's infathomable that he's not correct.

[xultar]

65. I'm a SHE, and a BLACK female in her 30's at least read my profile

before speaking of me....DIRECTLY. :grr: :nuke:

[Forkboy]

70. I could care less if you're black,green,prurple or red

And I dont read everyone's profile....sue me.

The point stands.

[xultar]

76. You don't get it. Were fighting each other. The Thugs are legislating

us into irrelevancy. So none of this will ever matter in the end.

That is the point.

[Forkboy]

88. Well calling people trolls is hardly conducive to making a point

And I dont consider the DLC/DNC to be in any way a friend of mine...so I'm not fighting "each other"...I consider it fighting the enemy within.

[xultar]

91. Hey, if you aren't then don't take it personally. No biggie. n/t

[Forkboy]

94. I dont take it personally

just pointing out the stupidity of claiming you want unity than pissing on those who dont immediately bow before your logic :eyes:

[xultar]

97. You must not have read the original post. I'm not for the DLC

or against them. I'm talking about the crabs in the bucket phenomena.

Have you ever heard of that?

What do you think my original post said exactly.

[Forkboy]

121. Oh,I read it

You want this to infighting to stop because it's dividing us....then proceeded to piss on those who saw things differently.I read the troll post to.

[xultar]

145. I am one of those people who if it doesn't apply to me it doesn't bother

me...

Like when white people think all black folks are criminals. Doesn't bother me cuz I know it's not true.

[charlie]

96. Hah, that's cute

Disagree with me and you're a troll.

Except if you're not. Then don't worry about it. No biggie.

[xultar]

115. You gotta humor yourself sometimes right? rotflmao n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. I'm fighting for my party back. That comes first. We need these

disagreements to emerge as a stronger party. My voice will be heard. It isn't being heard now. I want and demand representation for me, my kids, our future. Sorry. Then we can fight more effectively. Otherwise, it's more of the same until the two parties become so synonymous it really won't matter anymore when you close the curtain.

[itzamirakul]

226. I would respectfully like to suggest that...

you read this week's issue of www.blackcommentator.com

Please read the article entitled "Black Dems Must Clean Own House."

It pretty much explains why many people feel that the DLC has ruined the Democratic Party and must be dealt with before we can move ahead.
The article clearly identifies those Black politicians who are in bed with the DLC and IMO this is an important revelation.

BTW, SOME black ministers preached a Bush-supporting agenda, but in many cases their congregations either ignored the plea or left the church. So it really didn't work..this time. But who knows in the future. That is why it is important to get these things out in the open and not just "follow" along blindly. Your argument that "infighting" is hurting the Dems while the Repubs go on ahead really doesn't make sense if you consider the fact that unless we get the Party on the right track, we will never win anyhow.

[xultar]

229. The Black Commentator is only one point of view. What other

Black media sources can you point me to?

[itzamirakul]

236. Can you suggest others...

that I might access? The others that I have found do not seem to have the quality of articles that BC offers. But perhaps you know of some that I have not yet read.

[Poor Richard Lex]

60. DLC turned the democrats into CORPORATE WHORES

THAT is why nothing gets done in washington. Every one is feeding fro the same trough and the corporations took control.

Howie Dean showed us the way out of the wilderness. FUck the corporations, lets get back to the roots and the people.

PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER NOT CORPORATIONS

[dogman]

74. I signed the petition for Dean to head the DNC but I'll bet big that he'll

take any money coming his way if he gets there.

[xultar]

82. They all do. What will Mother Teresa run the DNC? There are no Saints

in this game.

NONE!

[Cheswick2.0]

87. WTF is that all about?

If he wanted to get rich off of politcs he could go sell himself to corporate american like Wasley Clark has done.

[dogman]

99. I didn't say he would take the money for himself.

Are we sensitive? A really ignorant blast at Wesley Clark too.

[Cheswick2.0]

107. Wes Clark is making money off of the war on terror

it wasn't my idea. He could have gone other routes.

[xultar]

112. Tee hee hee n/t

[dogman]

127. I always accused the GOP of conducting class warfare and I always thought

they were insane when they accused us of the same thing. Apparently they knew about people that would begrudge a person for being successful. I want someone who is intelligent looking out for my security. This man has done this all his life for a pittance. Would you prefer to see him hit the skids. Would you prefer to see this country hit he skids. Do people have to pass your test as to how they make their living? The extreme left is just as dictatorial as the extreme right.

[xultar]

147. You notice that too ahe? n/t

[incapsulated]

220. Dean is a doctor

He made money off of sick people!

Disgusting, but true. :puke:

And Edwards? He made money off of desperate people in trouble! The nerve!

Clark is making money offering advice in an area he is experienced in.

As a NY'er I would love my city to pay Wes for security advice. I guess I'm just buying into that mythical "war on terra..." Or maybe National Security isn't just a rethug catchword.

:eyes:

[janx]

105. Your opinion is ignorant.

He doesn't need the money. He's trying to re-create some kind of semblance of our democratic republic.

[dogman]

133. Read again and read post 99 that was written to the last sensitive

person.

[janx]

158. If I don't, then I will not be here.

I exist to educate people, especically when it comes to writing.

[dogman]

160. Educate me about what your post says.

I was discussing him being DNC chair. The DNC chair has the job of raising money along with other duties. Do you believe Dean will reject corporate donations to the DNC if he is chair?

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. Dogman, it's sometimes not about the money. It's about bringing

change about.

[dogman]

138. The Dems and Gop raised record money this year.

You aren't getting change without it. If he is head of the DNC he will take every legal dollar to run the DNC and its campaigns that he can get.

[ScreamingMeemie]

149. And I, not a corporation, sent money for the first time this year.

That's where it is at. That's what Howard Dean received...:hi:

[xultar]

153. I sent money too for the first time this year. Clark got mine!

YEA CLARK!

Then everyone will say see. I knew she was a rethug DLC spy. She even talks like a thug. She types like a corpratist whore.

:evilgrin:

[dogman]

155. You weren't alone.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00025663&cycle=2004

[xultar]

156. Thanks for the info, we'll use it to assist purge of DLC. n/t

[mhr]

67. xultar - You Seem To Miss The Point

For those of us that have "followed" the DLC for years, we understand that they have made a pact with the devil. By courting the corporations , the DLC has diminished the strong pro-labor stance of the Democratic party.

The implications are obvious.

[xultar]

72. How will we ever be able to turn it around though if by the time we

finish the internal battle. The other side has legislated themselves into the foundation of the law?

Right now we don't have any leg to stand on in the congress. If we try to make a stand the Thugs will change the rules to suit themselves.

So while we're fighting the DLC element within. They the THUGS are legislating us into irrelevancy.

[janx]

89. Don't fret.

The DLC is not elected. It's a bunch of men in D.C.

It's history now.

[mhr]

90. We Are Past The Point Of "Turning It Around"

Right now we are trying to build for the future. Many of us argue that the DLC is one reason that we are in such desperate straights. Hence, we need to clean ship and move on.

Presently, I believe that all hope is lost for the near term. The best we can hope for is that the Republicans self-destruct from within via corruption and bad policy.

[xultar]

102. Republicans self-destruct from within---Isn't that where we are headed?

Isn't that what they are hoping for us?
They are hoping that we self-destruct from within with this DLC/DNC bruhaha?

[mhr]

123. Trust Me On This - They Are Too Busy Counting Their Cash To

Worry about our internal debates.

They own everything and they know it. All we can do is watch from the sidelines while they implode.

What we need to do is be ready for our next shot. Part of being ready is dumping the DLC that is partly responsible for our current fate.

[xultar]

129. Trust me. I don't disagree about purging the DLC. I just wonder

if right now. Is the time. We got our ASSES kicked on 11/2. We don't even have a leg to stand on in the congress. What frightens me is they can do what they want when they want.

I want so bad for us to not fight each other. But it looks like that is where we are headed. Even those like me who don't wanna fight. I think the time to purge is after we have the WH back.

We'll never get it back if we....fight each other like we are doing right now.

[mhr]

146. An Honest Disagreement Then - I Believe We Purge Now For The Future

The next presidential election is four years from now.

Let's clean up the house now and move on.

[xultar]

151. Well all I can say is. If it is done now then I hope you're right. But,

I don't think 4 years will be enough when we don't have a pot to piss in.

We'll see.

[janx]

126. How do you know what they hope?

?

[xultar]

141. Cuz I'm a RETHUG...that's it, you caught me. I'm out of the closet

and I'm singing show-tunes and dressing like Liza Minelli.
Wait, that's not right. rotflmao

You won't get past me with any trick questons LimpBalls taught me how to handle elite liberals.

Awww give me a break.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

162. Goodness, can't take a joke, nothing in there was directed at you.

Nothing speaks of you personally. My statement was general and kinda funny and silly. Unfortunately you had to go personal and NASTY @ that.

How can any post referring to LimpBalls be serious enough to warrant a FUCK YOU post?

WOW.

[pleiku52cab]

80. the DLC is corrupt and the DNC is inefficient

it is time for the ordinary 'compassionate liberals to take the party back.

[GreenPartyVoter]

140. I hope you can. I'd love for the Greens to build a coalition with

other progressive parties, but the DNC leadership is fighting too hard to not rock the boat and look "bad" to the GOP.

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[CBHagman]

144. You dear person, thank you for saving my night.

I had a rotten day and finally got home to some dinner and a chance to catch up on DU. When I got to the site, nearly everything except the non-political threads appeared to consist of either the circular firing squad (i.e., seemingly bottomless bile against fellow Democrats) or gratuitously nasty attacks on Bush appointees.

Folks, if you were primarily running threads on how we were going to keep a woman's right to choose or frame the debate or acquire a few TV stations or stop Alberto Gonzales from getting within a mile of the DOJ, I'd be reasonably content that we weren't sliding to self-destruction.

But we ARE. We are.

Get a grip, people. Get your aggressions out, stick to your principles, but don't expend energy on telling me how much you hate Bernard Kerik or Joe Lieberman. Don't go all Ann Coulter on me. You can do nuance!

[xultar]

148. THANK YOU-----------You saw what I Saw that is why I posted this thread.

Everyone is shooting at the other DEM. I'm more liberal than you. You're a corpratist. You're too Moderate, your not Moderate enough. DNC/DLC DLC/DNC

This is what DU looked like when I logged on from coming from getting a root canal tonight. That is why I started this thread.

:grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke::grr::nuke:

[Forkboy]

154. Or conversely

don't expend energy on telling me how much you hate Bernard Kerik or Joe Lieberman.

you could not expend the energy to read it :shrug:

[hansolsen]

150. Check out this related DU thread. Anyone reading this and still supportin

the DLC is living in lala land.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=89759&mesg_id=89759&page=

[xultar]

152. Please, start your own circle firing squad thread. This one is just about

to close.

This is not about the DNC/DLC argument. This is about not arguing at all.

Move along, there's nothing to see here.

[mosin]

227. I still support the DLC...

and I live in Ohio.

Remember Ohio? That slightly "red" state we would have won with a coherent, mainstream, moderate Democratic message.

[greenohio]

161. We need to kick out ALL DLCers

Once, they're gone, then we can start winning again.

Heres the list of some of them:
Jim Doyle Governor WI
Michael Easley Governor NC
Jennifer Granholm Governor MI
Bob Holden Governor MO
Gary Locke Governor WA
Ruth Ann Minner Governor DE
Ronnie Musgrove Governor MS
Janet Napolitano Governor AZ
Ed Rendell Governor PA
Bill Richardson Governor NM
Kathleen Gilligan Sebelius Governor KS
Tom Vilsack Governor IA
Mark Warner Governor VA
Max Baucus U.S. Senator MT
Evan Bayh U.S. Senator IN
John Breaux U.S. Senator LA
Maria Cantwell U.S. Senator WA
Tom Carper U.S. Senator DE
Hillary Clinton U.S. Senator NY
Kent Conrad U.S. Senator ND
Christopher Dodd U.S. Senator CT
Dianne Feinstein U.S. Senator CA
Bob Graham U.S. Senator FL
Tim Johnson U.S. Senator SD
John Kerry U.S. Senator MA
Herb Kohl U.S. Senator WI
Mary Landrieu U.S. Senator LA
Joe Lieberman U.S. Senator CT
Blanche Lincoln U.S. Senator AR
Bill Nelson U.S. Senator FL
Ben Nelson U.S. Senator NE
Mark Pryor U.S. Senator AR
Debbie Stabenow U.S. Senator MI

[xultar]

164. I'm for it. Then we gotta have rules to bar any candidate from here

on out who accept corporate funds.

The DNC will no longer be allowed to accept money from corporations.

What else do we need to do?

[greenohio]

166. Then, we need to rebuild.

Cause there will be a lot fewer of us in the Senate and Gov mansions.

[xultar]

172. How will the new candidates have the resources to run? What's the plan

from that perspective?

[greenohio]

176. Grassroots Grassroots Grassroots

We'll pay for everything with grass-roots. I have plenty in my back yard, should last us a while.

[xultar]

177. Alllllll---righty then. Count me in. I got some roots too. n/t

[Jose Diablo]

163. I think the DLC is in on the vote fraud that happened

as much as the Republican party. The DLC is not Democrat, they are enemies of the progressive roots of the Democratic party. They never will be Democrats as long as they are feeding on the corporate money. If the party does not dump these people, then the party will be irrelevant.

I will remind everyone, that if the vote fraud did not happen, all this talk about morality and moving once more further to the right would not be happening.

We have been screwed by the DLC again. The DLC are republicans. Now what does it take to GET THEM THE FUCK OUT OF OUR PARTY?

[xultar]

165. YEAH!!! Let's Kick'em out! What list of DLCers do you have? n/t

[Jose Diablo]

175. I am glad you asked that

Start here: http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=137

Then do these: http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=104&subid=210&contentid=251581

Am I being clear? Either the party gets back to its core or you can kiss it goodbye. Now you may ask what is the core, and if you have to ask that question then you get a glimpse of the problem, our party is not differentiating itself from the republicans.

Does anybody remember "the party of the people"? You know, the ones working in factories, fighting for just the right to vote, to have a living wage. Has our party made a stand for the grunts in our society? No, they call them trailer trash and rednecks.

Even around here, I hear lamenting about how indecorous some of us are, sounds like a bunch professors at tea.

Hell, all the hand wringing about becoming violent and pounding the shit out of the worst of "THE PEOPLES" enemies. At least in the Ukraine and Spain and Italy they do what is needed. What do we do, "Oh, we need better leaders".

I am beginning to doubt there is any blood left. At least in the other parts of the world, they understand how dangerous our opponents really are. They fight them, they do not negotiate with thugs and crooks. But here, "Oh, we must be civil".

Crap.

[greenohio]

202. WOW your purge list includes Barak Obama. I knew it!

It was all to good to be true.

[NYCGirl]

230. Obama asked to have his name removed from the DLC list

http://www.blackcommentator.com/48/48_cover.html

Excerpt (from a letter sent by Obama):

I favor universal health care for all Americans, and intend to introduce or sponsor legislation toward that end in the U.S. Senate, just as I have at the state level. My campaign is also developing a series of interim proposals – such as an expansion of the successful SCHIP program – so that we can immediately provide more coverage to uninsured children and their families.  

I would have voted against the October 10th congressional resolution authorizing the President to use unilateral force against Iraq.  I believe that we could have effectively neutralized Iraq with a rigorous, multilateral inspection regime backed by coalition forces.  Nothing since the end of the formal fighting has led me to reconsider this stance; indeed, the inability of Saddam Hussein to mount even token resistance to American forces, the failure to discover any significant, deployable arsenals of biological or chemical weapons inside Iraq, and the on-going turmoil currently taking place in post-war Iraq, have only strengthened my views on the subject.  

And although I believe that free trade - when also fair - can benefit workers in both rich and poor nations, I think that the current NAFTA regime lacks the worker and environmental protections that are necessary for the long-term prosperity of both America and its trading partners.  I would therefore favor, at minimum, a significant renegotiation of NAFTA and the terms of the President’s fast track authority.  

You are undoubtedly correct that these positions make me an unlikely candidate for membership in the DLC.  That is why I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the DLC.  As I stated in my previous letter, I agreed to be listed as “100 to watch” by the DLC.  That’s been the extent of my contact with them. It does appear that, without my knowledge, the DLC also listed me in their “New Democrat” directory.  Because I agree that such a directory implies membership, I will be calling the DLC to have my name removed, and appreciate your having brought this fact to my attention.

[xultar]

231. But not their 100 to watch....

[NYCGirl]

232. So? That doesn't mean he's a member, nor does he want to be. (eom)

[greenohio]

239. Uhhm don't blame me. I didn't put the link to that link there Jose did.

Actually, if you read your article, he was fine with being on the list that Jose posted. My point was that the wrong list was posted. If we need the obvious pointed out, we'll call.

[NYCGirl]

241. I was just pointing out that Obama is not "a DLCer."

Your post to him meant to be sarcastic? It was somewhat vague.

[greenohio]

242. Yes, we both were. Maybe you should reply to the person who posted that.

[mosin]

228. Can I be on the list?

I accept corporate contributions every month--my paycheck--and I even own stock in corporations. In lots of them, in fact.

Does that make me a "corporatist?" (I don't think I own any Walmart, but I'd have to check all my mutual funds' holdings.)

[greenohio]

240. Another UNCLEAN in our midst!

Repent, repent I tell you!

[mosin]

246. Repent or be purged?

I thought I was going to be purged? Now you tell me to repent? We're never going to make progress if we keep sending such mixed messages.

[greenohio]

167. I just knew Dianne Fienstien was in on it.

Never could trust her. Her and Ed Rendell. They have those shifty repuke eyes you know. They need the ol boot. Then we can start winning again.

[xultar]

168. OK, let's add Fienstien, you know she's always on Larry King...

that was the big clue.

Do we need to add anyone else to the list. We should include state candidates as well and county and local offices. The collect corporate donations too.

[greenohio]

169. Here's some of them. We need to purge them to.

We need to be pure. Screw this big tent stuff. We need a big solid progressive base. That is the way to win.

Loranne Ausley State Representative FL
Chris Beck State Representative OR
Ralph Becker State Representative UT
Alice Borodkin State Representative CO
Betty Boyd State Representative CO
David Braddock State Representative OK
Polly Bukta State Representative IA
Jo Carson State Representative AR
Karen R. Carter State Representative LA
Carol Chumney State Representative TN
Ken Clark State Representative AZ
Fran Coleman State Representative CO
Michael Diven State Representative PA
Robert Faucheux State Representative LA
Barry R. Finegold State Representative MA
Romanie Foege State Representative IA
Dan Frankel State Representative PA
John A. Fritchey State Representative IL
Michael Garcia State Representative CO
Jim D. Garner State Representative KS
Jeff Gombosky State Representative WA
Ron Greenstein State Representative FL
Peter C. Groff State Representative CO
Jeff Harris State Representative MO
Robert Henriquez State Representative FL
Debra Hilstrom State Representative MN
Dave Hunt State Representative OR
Ross Hunter State Representative WA
Geri Huser State Representative IA
Michael Jackson State Representative LA
Steven B. Jones State Representative AR
Charlie Justice State Representative FL
Annie Kuether State Representative KS
Eric LaFleur State Representative LA
Patricia Lantz State Representative WA
Peter Larkin State Representative MA
David Lemoine State Representative ME
Frana Araujo Mace State Representative CO
Alice Madden State Representative CO
Jennifer Mann State Representative PA
Lisa Tessier Marrache State Representative ME
Rosemary Marshall State Representative CO
Kevin McCarthy State Representative IL
Kevin McCarthy State Representative IA
Bill McConico State Representative MI
Dolores Mertz State Representative IA
Carl Miller State Representative CO
Charles A. Murphy State Representative MA
Pat Murphy State Representative IA
Ed Murray State Representative WA
Alfred Park State Representative NM
Janet Peterson State Representative IA
Tom Plant State Representative CO
Brian Quirk State Representative IA
John Richardson State Representative ME
Stacy J. Ritter State Representative FL
Andrew Romanoff State Representative
T.J. Rooney State Representative PA
Laura Ruderman State Representative WA
Sharon Sanders Brooks State Representative MO
Derrick Seaver State Representative OH
Eleanor Sobel State Representative FL
Gregory R. Stevens State Representative IA
Peter Sullivan State Representative NH
Abel J. Tapia State Representative CO
Doug Teper State Representative GA
Paul Tessier State Representative ME
Lois Tochtrop State Representative CO
Jennifer Veiga State Representative CO
Val Vigil State Representative CO
Michael Vilarreal State Representative TX
Val D. Vincent State Representative VT
Lewis J. Wallace State Representative CT
Steven Warnstadt State Representative IA
Jonathan Weinzapfel State Representative IN
Peggy M. Welch State Representative IN
Suzanne Williams State Representative CO
Philip Wise State Representative IA
Chris Cummiskey State Senate Assistant Leader AZ
Dede Alpert State Senator CA
Patrice Arent State Senator UT
David Aronberg State Senator FL
Gonzalo Barrientos State Senator TX
Patrica M. Blevins State Senator DE
Lisa Boscola State Senator PA
Daniel Brady State Senator OH
Nancy Chard State Senator VT
Ken Cheuvront State Senator AZ
Lou D'Allesandro State Senator NH
Ryan Deckert State Senator OR
Joseph Dunn State Senator CA
Eric Fingerhut State Senator OH
Joan Fitz-Gerald State Senator CO
Steven A. Geller State Senator FL
Gabrielle Giffords State Senator AZ
Ken Gordon State Senator CO
Daniel Grossman State Senator CO
Bob Hagedorn State Senator CO
Karen Hale State Senator UT
DeAnna Hanna State Senator CO
Robert Jackson State Senator KY
Gilda Z. Jacobs State Senator MI
Marjorie L. Kilkelly State Senator ME
Rosalind Kurita State Senator TN
Kenneth McClintock State Senator PR
Matt McCoy State Senator IA
Richard Moore State Senator MA
Therese Murray State Senator MA
Alice Nichol State Senator CO
Michael A. O'Pake State Senator PA
Marc R. Pacheco State Senator MA
Ed Perlmutter State Senator CO
Terry Phillips State Senator CO
Jeffrey Plale State Senator WI
Eric Miller Reeves State Senator NC
Peggy Reeves State Senator CO
Ann H. Rest State Senator MN
Elaine Richardson State Senator AZ
John Riggs IV State Senator AR
Timothy J. Ryan State Senator OH
Jefferey Schoenberg State Senator IL
Allyson Y. Schwartz State Senator PA
Malcolm A. Smith State Senator NY
Rod Smith State Senator FL
Harvey D. Tallackson State Senator ND
John Unger II State Senator WV
Patrick D. Welch State Senator IL
Constance Williams State Senator PA
Sue Windels State Senator CO
Phil Angelides State Treasurer CA
Marshall Bennett State Treasurer MS
Robert Butkin State Treasurer OK
Michael Fitzgerald State Treasurer IA
Jack Markell State Treasurer DE
Jonathan Miller State Treasurer KY
Richard H. Moore State Treasurer NC

[xultar]

170. Now that's what I'm talkin about. Straight up McCarthy style in YO face

get the fuck out urge to purge list.

Yeah boy-eeeee!

[greenohio]

174. We need to put out the sign DLC not welcome here.

We should start by banning Clinton from all Democratic functions and the convention. He's dead weight. Then we need to kick these guys out of the party. Is there a way to revoke membership? Have these officials been paying their party dues? Any dirt can we dig up on them?

[xultar]

179. I'm for sure about banning Clinton. Do we ban Carter, did he accept

corporate funds when he ran in the 1970's? I gotta check that out. I'm sure some peanut corporations and agri-business farm people somewhere donated to him.

[greenohio]

181. Dunno. Heard he had friends in the DLC. Dined with them...

Have to keep a close eye on him. He might be in on it.

[xultar]

183. Right, we'll keep an eye on him. I bet he things that southern accent

will throw us off.

[greenohio]

184. You have to watch your back in this business...

a DLCer could be behind you....trying to pick your wallet or something, or pinch your butt.... or giving you bunny ears.

[xultar]

189. Buhwawawawawawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

204. Warnng: tag team at work

n/t

[greenohio]

213. Warning, poor attempt at humor.

[Jose Diablo]

180. You have proved my point

calling for a toilet flushing as McCarthy style, is rhetoric just as blatant as McCarthy. Should we run because we see the danger and you yell you are McCarthy. Or do we say, take your useless words and shove it.

I think you are part of the problem, for you offer nothing more that further appeasement. Yes, you are part of the problem.

[greenohio]

182. Thats right. And anybody who is too zealous against the DLC

need to be booted too! They're over compensating. Brilliant. Must be some kind of professional political strategist or somethin to come up with that.

[Jose Diablo]

186. Uh huh, yep you bad

Tell me Mr. Progressive, you are close to Ohio. Do you think it was a fair and true vote. Sin city huh. Was the vote accurate?

No? Why not?

Don't bullshit a bullshitter.

Why the name Green? I don't remember Ohio being any greener than say Michigan. Or do you mean the Green Party. What is your game? Gonna peel some dems to the greenies huh.

[xultar]

188. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[greenohio]

191. Whats your problem? Are you DLC supporter?

As for Ohio, we still have those rotten punch cards. I am a big fan of counting the ballots by hand, at the precinct, with representatives of the candidates present on video tape, the night of the election. Fraud would require a huge conspiracy rather than one or two well place people at the county with BBV.

[xultar]

187. I dunno. I'm feeling guilty and I wasn't for or against the DLC. I'm

still not for or against the DLC and I feel guilty. Unclean like I need an exorcism or at least a bath.

[greenohio]

194. We need to stay strong. Stay the course. Root out the EVIL.

just like the Puritans.

[xultar]

185. Yup yes I am. I am part of the problem. Hell I am the problem. I am

the reason we lost 2004 and 2000. I'm the reason we'll loose in 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020.

Yup, It's me.

a 35 year old black female with 3 chihuahuas and 3 cats on my bed who is watching comedy central typing on my laptop.

I am the problem.

[greenohio]

192. How do you sleep at night...being the problem and all?

[xultar]

200. not too well with 3 chihuahuas on my bed and 1 fat cat who likes to play

on me @ nite.

[greenohio]

201. No alergies I suppose.

:-)

[greenohio]

171. Lets face it folks, the party just allows too many opinions...

and perspectives. Once those in the DLC are gone, then we can hold our heads high again. If just we look at the lists I posted above and start campaigning against them in our state. We certainly won't vote for them.

[Kahuna]

190. The "division" is directly responsible for the monster in the WH..

today. People wanted to punish good old Al Gore for being a DLCer. :eyes: I, like you, am very tired of hearing about it.

[xultar]

196. Don't say that. Then you'll be the enemy like me. You'll be banished

to the sidelines where no one will laugh at your funny posts. Where everyone will consider you a troll.

You know what I could give a SHIT about the DLC and the DNC right now.

Is it possible our each groups fringes are just about to meet on the backside of the circle?

[greenohio]

197. Banished and hated....don't forget hated....ooooh and blamed...

blamed too...cause you will be the source of all our losses.

[Kahuna]

219. Been there. Done that.... The truth of the matter is..

Clinton and Gore hit upon a winning combination that was good for the whole nation. But they weren't commie enough for some so they had to be punished. :wtf: The most successful administration in the history of our country need to be punished for doing well????? :crazy:

There are a lot of people, and they know who they are, that are directly responsible by their votes and rhetoric in 2000 for the current administration. And they're striking out in anger against the Dems because the Dems are powerless against the very power that they created. :crazy:

They were using DLC as an excuse to not vote for Gore in 2000. And really to me, anybody who couldn't appreciate Al Gore, and worked against him in 2000, are really on my list of people I would want to hang out with anyway.

[Kenneth ken]

193. xultar - a little history

The DLC was formed in about 1988, because the Dems kept losing the White House. They gained control of the party in about 1992, and Clinton got elected (by a plurality:43% of the vote)

Since then, the DLC-led Dem party has lost control of the House, lost control of the Senate, lost the majority of governorships in the states, and failed to win the WH 3 out of the last 5 times.

Do you really think this is a winning strategy?

That in a nutshell is why all the anti-DLC posters are opposed to the DLC. How much more do you want Dems to lose before you are ready to give up on the DLC?

[greenohio]

195. Thats right. And as soon as we get rid of those DLC losers

we can all be winners!

[Kenneth ken]

198. one can only hope.

and fight for their riddance, so we can test that hypothesis.

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

205. So which one of them are you?

DLC losers, I mean.

[greenohio]

212. The good looking one.

But sorry Lydia, I'm taken. BTW, I'm not DLC. Can't wait to start your witch hunt I see.

[xultar]

199. What I do think is that the internal struggles may have something to

do with us losing. Honestly I don't care. Kick'em all out. Feed the URGE TO PURGE.
I don't think I give a rats ass.

What I can say is what I see happening here has happened and is still happening in the Black community.

You see where the divisive strategy has gotten us black folk. Yup. You guessed it. Nowhere.

[Kenneth ken]

203. I would suggest

you take a half-step back, and look at the US from a slightly broader perspective.

I think that at least part of the reason the black community hasn't advanced in the past couple decades is that the right continues to deomonize and seek to disenfranchise. The DLC-controlled Dems have stopped opposing that, and actually joined in on the demonizing - see Clinton's welfare reform, which pushed 'personal responsibility' (as though it is the fault of black and other minorities that racial prejudice still exists in hiring, obtaining loans, etc.) - siding with corporations against people from all but the elite class.

The left-right war isn't nearly as important (to me, anyway) as the CLASS war. The DLC has effectively neutered the only major party that was willing to engage in the class war, so they became my defacto opposition.

Without unions, without fair trade agreements, without government enforcing equal opportunities, we the people, of whatever skin color, have an even harder fight against the entrenched power of corporations.

[greenohio]

206. I knew the DLC was behind racism.

I just never heard it put so succinctly. Can't wait till we purge every last one of them. Then we will be the majority party again.

[Kenneth ken]

208. if

we could focus people's attention on the fact that personal responsibility will only take a person so far, and that laws controlling corporations, and government enforcement of same, are also critical factors in whether people succeed or fail, we would be an overwhleming majority in a heart-beat. After all, the majority of the people in this country are getting screwed because to do otherwise would adversely affect corporate profitability.

[greenohio]

209. Can't focus on anything but hating the DLC right now.

After their gone, then can look into other things.

[xultar]

207. You're talking to me as if I'm not black. You know what,

I'm kinda sick of this game.

You guys go out purge the DLC I don't care. Make that the top issue of the DNC. Just know contrary to popular belief the internal squabbling is not making things better for the party.

[greenohio]

211. Your talking to a wall.

The DLC is just plain hated here because the blogs tell us to hate the DLC. Don't you listen to your blog?

[mosin]

233. Welfare reform

see Clinton's welfare reform, which pushed 'personal responsibility'

Silly me. I thought Clinton's welfare reform was a grand "success." That must have been more DLC/PPI propaganda.

Nope, we can't have any "personal responsibility." Not in the Democratic Party. We hafta purge it.

[xultar]

215. Kick n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

216. For the first time in MY LIFE (46 years) I'm ready and willing

to jump ship on the Democratic Party and vote GREEN. Even as a Moderate Democrat what we now know as the DLC is republican-lite speech to me. My apologies to all the Nader devotees because we do NOT have a true democratic party. They are right - our two major parties are Republican and Republican Lite. I do NOT want any part of either. :(

[rman]

218. the DLC would love to see lefties leave the Dem party

the solution is to reclaim the party.
Urge you representatives not to take orders from the DLC, not to comply to policy propositions coming from the DLC.

[AmerDem]

237. Well, after reading about the DLC...

I don't agree with you. Look, apparently people at the top of this group endorsed PNAC and are on a Michael Moore bashing crusade. Also it seems they are of like minds with Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. Sorry that's enough for me to back away from them.

[greenohio]

238. They are EVIL. We gotta boot em...starting with Fienstein and Dodd.

We can't allow these moles to under mind the movement.

[leesa]

243. It needs to be resolved if there is to be any progress.

Dems are either Republican-lite or Dems are progressives. Which one?

[greenohio]

244. And we need to cut out the cancer of the Repuke lites.

If you are a repuke lite, you are undermining the party. Go join the repukes. Lets start with Feinstein, Dodd, and Cantwell. Those are blue states that we could win the seat back.

[noiretextatique]

248. newsflash: we are divided

:shrug: hence all the factions within the party, and the defections to the greens.

[UpsideDownFlag]

251. this is part of the larger problem within the Democratic party, though...

the leadership that believes we need to move to the center, versus t he base who thinks we need to stay/move to the left.