Could somebody please try to rationalize this

[joeprogressive]

My family has been taken over by the conservative bug. Some arrived there through the christain right mind games and others are simply greedy. My mother, who has been a lifelong dem, has slowly shifted to the darkside to appease my greedy father. After the election, when I confronted her about selling out her core beliefs, she said she is not a republican, is anti-war, but voted for Bush because she doesn't feel Kerry was right for the job and didn't offer a clear alternative. I unloaded on her. Is she mental, in denial, or what? I should add that my parents have money but she flatly denies that entered into the equation.

[HeeBGBz]

1. My family seems to be a moving towards the dark side also

Most I expected because of religion, but my oldest sister seems to be influenced by her husband who is ex-military. She didn't say how she voted, but she won't talk about the election or the fraud.

I feel very alone.

[joeprogressive]

2. lost some family gained others

My in-laws are rational and actually asked me and my wife why we were voting for Kerry. When we explained it to them they decided to do the same. I can't stand to be around my family anymore and will limit contact with them as much as possible.

[Kber]

56. Had an interesting family experience prior to the election

We were getting two different sides of my and my husband's family together for the first time this past year on Mother's Day and, frankly, I was worried just a little about the dynamics.

On one side, we had socially conservative, religiously observant Jews from the Main Line outside Philadelphia. This side keeps kosher, albeit not very strictly.

On the other, African-American, church attending, social liberals from Newark and surrounding areas near NYC. I was worried about explaining the absence of bacon at the Mother's Day brunch.

After about 5 minutes of polite but kinda strained conversation, someone brought up politics, Bush, and the upcoming election.

WELL - they were off!! Three hours later, everyone was the best of friends and firmly in the ABB camp. As my mom said "See, that SOB really is a uniter!" This past thanksgiving we were together again, commiserating in our sorrow and anger. I can't tell you how nice it was to have a large, diverse, and supportive family. Of course, it would have been better if we could have been celebrating instead, but at least we didn't have to put up w/ any smug relatives rubbing their stolen victory in!

[blondeatlast]

3. Beginning to sound like a broken record here, but: I highly suggest

you read George Lakoff's book "Don't Think of an Elephant."

It's a quick read and only $8-10 at your local bookstore.

It explains in easy to understand ways why this is happening, and there is far more behind it than you can imagine.

Another great book to understand this phenomenon, although a much denser read, is David Brock's (yes, THAT David Brock) "Republican Noise Machine."

Both will make you realize that W.rong has very little to do with anything; he's almost a figurehead and nothing more.

[joeprogressive]

6. Thanks for the book suggestions

I have read and enjoyed many of these political type books. Kitty Kelley's, The Family, was great. However, do you think these books ever convert anyone or make a difference? I mean, they make me feel better because I usually already agree with them but do they ever educate someone to the point they change their political mindset? Personally, there is no way I could make it past 2 pages of anything Coulter has written but I probably should read her stuff to be better informed about how the enemy thinks.

[blondeatlast]

10. These are more expository books;

they explain the "machine" that is working behind the scenes.

Let's put it this way: the Republican win in 2000 and 2004 was engineered 20 years ago, both books show how.

[joeprogressive]

12. Do they offer explanations how dems can do the same?

I have a yellow dog like your avatar. He is definitely a yellow dog dem.

[blondeatlast]

22. "Don't Think of an Elephant" DEFINITELY does.

Also, check out the "Frame the Debate" Group here on DU which tries to put the ideas of Lakoff to productive use.

[Gyre]

46. I'm reading the book now and watched the video today.

Outstanding to say the least! I nominate Lakeoff for cloning!!!

Gyre

[MelissaB]

19. I just ordered both books.

Thanks so much for the recommendations!

:hug:

[blondeatlast]

23. Not a problem; I read book reviews as an ENORMOUS portion of my job.

I work in the Collection Development department of the local libray.

They are both excellent books--and really eye-opening.

[BlueManDude]

38. It's the media

virtual 24 hour brainwashing from talk radio and the cable nets is having an impact. i don't see a lot of hope.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Mixed family.... mostly uninformed and don't know what to believe... I

will use my dying breath to teach them if given the chance...

this administration has relegated unto itself powers that are normally reserved for despots, dictators formerly supported by the U.S. and concubines.

Not only do they have half of the "reading" American populace pissed off, they have almost the entire rest of the world pissed off, and that includes leaders such as our friend Puddin. If our relatives are too blind to see what lays before us, well, it won't be long before they get their wake-up call.

Ridge wants to "remake" the internet so that it is safer... safer for whom, those who speak the truth, or those who are being burned by it?

I feel an ill wind blowing, I hope it is just global warming and nothing more but the headlines aren't pointing in that direction.. how can 59,000,000 people be so dumb?

[izzie]

5. Well people like to go with the ones that win.

You know how it is when some one will tell you 'oh I knew that and voted for that thing' when they win. Like every one in Germany was against Hitler, at the end of the war but they were the same people who voted the man in and went with the war in the first place. I hear the same thing about M.l.King. Every one loves the guy and let me tell you I lived in an age when that was not true. I think we call it getting on the band wagon.

[joeprogressive]

7. I used that analogy with Hitler the other day.

My wife was asking how people could be so stupid. I told her that they are easily scared, thus easily fooled. Look at Hitler.

[MatrixEscape]

8. More on Hitler analogies:

From:

http://www.falloutshelternews.com/BushHitlerLinks.html

Playing on this new nationalism, and exploiting a disagreement with the French over his increasing militarism, he argued that any international body that didn't act first and foremost in the best interest of his own nation was neither relevant nor useful. He thus withdrew his country from the League Of Nations in October, 1933, and then negotiated a separate naval armaments agreement with Anthony Eden of The United Kingdom to create a worldwide military ruling elite. His propaganda minister orchestrated a campaign to ensure the people that he was a deeply religious man and that his motivations were rooted in Christianity. He even proclaimed the need for a revival of the Christian faith across his nation, what he called a "New Christianity." Every man in his rapidly growing army wore a belt buckle that declared "Gott Mit Uns" - God Is With Us - and most of them fervently believed it was true.

Sound familiar?

The cultic devotion promoted by the Right may be spreading because of cultic-style promotion. Perhaps that is a perspective to look at the phenomena from?

[Ms_Mary]

9. That covers my family too. They fell for the propoganda

no matter how hard I tried.

[NuttyFluffers]

11. "the deepest pit in hell is reserved for betrayers"

"imagine how deep your pit will be when you betrayed your very own self and all that your messiah held dear."

be sure you are pretty familiar with jesus' teaching before you pull this off.

and from their response you will know whether they are just bandwagoning, or truly are insane. it's as simple as that.

[joeprogressive]

13. I have tried this

I challenged my wingnut christian sister to demonstrate to me from the Bible how Jesus is anything but Liberal. She looked at me perplexed. But I think I got her thinking when I showed her the Liberals like Christ website.

[joeprogressive]

14. what book/verse is that from? Thanks

N/T

[NuttyFluffers]

15. from me :D just quote me :)

that's what i'd say to them. hence the quotes.

the idea comes from Dante's Divine Comedy where the deepest pit in hell is reserved for betrayers. a very good poem, though i'm still working my way through paradiso. it's something to savor. oh and everything makes more sense as it goes on, but you really need to use high allegorical and intuitive knowledge to get through purgatorio (which is a lot of fun).

then just extrapolate that she previously held such liberal views, and then follow through that jesus was a staunch liberal -- probably the staunchest i've ever heard about. that 'love thy enemy,' forgiveness, and 'turn the other cheek' stuff is pretty intense.

[joeprogressive]

16. excellent, thanks for the advice

I will give Dante a read. It has been on my list for years. I think we briefly went over it in High School but those days are a blur.

[salin]

17. browbeaten (by loved one and echo chamber media) to

the point of vulnerabilty and susceptability to the bs propoganda put out by bushroveco during the elections.

[RafterMan]

18. I think you have described

exactly what happens when negative campaigning is successful. Even if people don't believe the exact charges, they're left with the sense that the guy "just isn't right" and "I'll go with what I know".

I wish I knew the solution, but if I did I'd be the only one.

[Mabeline]

24. Good grief..

wasn't there a LOT of mud slinging going on? I got SO sick of even turning the tv on. I think by the day of the election most everyone around me just wanted election day to be over so the commercials would stop.

[Bridget Burke]

25. I noticed lots of mud slinging--from Republicans....

What Democratic mud slinging did you notice?

[Mabeline]

26. Maybe you..

just don't watch a lot of tv, and that's okay, but all of the 527's were slinging mud both ways IMHO.

[sandnsea]

34. Truth isn't mudslinging

And it's a damned shame people aren't informed enough to know the difference. Get a clue. READ once in a while.

The Republicans put out the most viscious lying campaign I have ever seen.

[Mabeline]

40. But saying things are true

that aren't is....

The Whoppers of 2004

Bush and Kerry repeat discredited claims in their final flurry of ads. Here's our pre-election summary of the misinformation we found during the Bush-Kerry presidential campaign.

As election day neared, both candidates continued to twist and falsify in their final TV ads -- and in a blizzard of expensive mail as well.

Bush continued to accuse Kerry of proposing government-run health care and more taxes for middle-income persons, and of voting in the past to "slash" spending on intelligence and of opposing mainstream military weapons. Kerry claimed Bush would cut Social Security benefits 45% and that he subsidizes companies that send jobs overseas. And those are just some of the untruths the candidates are feeding to voters.

In this article we again take on those claims, and summarize the major misrepresentations made by both sides since the start of the general election campaign last March when Kerry sewed up the Democratic nomination.
Analysis

We haven't addressed every false or misleading statement in the campaign -- there were too many of them and our resources are too limited for that. But here we present a summary of what we consider our most important findings, with special emphasis on the misinformation being most heavily repeated in the final days before the election. For the full record of our work please refer to the earlier articles on the home page and in our archive.

Bush: "Government-run Health Care"

Bush continued to misrepresent Kerry's health-care proposal in a series of ads and mailings, telling voters that Kerry would take health-care decisions out of the hands of doctors and have "bureaucrats in Washington" making them instead.

Actually, 97% of those who now have health insurance would keep the coverage they have under Kerry's plan, according to a neutral, authoritative study by the Lewin Group. Kerry's very expensive plan would also extend coverage to as many as 27 million persons who currently lack insurance, largely by expanding current forms of Medicaid coverage to children and workers farther up the income scale. Even the conservative, pro-Bush Wall Street Journal editorial page stated that Kerry wasn't seeking to impose the sort of health-care program proposed by the Clintons in 1993, exactly contrary to the picture Bush attempts to paint.

Wall Street Journal Editorial (Oct 29): What is the Kerry Persuasion? For starters, it is not radical. Nothing in Mr. Kerry's record as Senator or as Democratic nominee gives us reason to suspect that as President he would seek dramatically to alter the basic contours of American life. On the economy, that means no HillaryCare, . . .


Kerry: "A Plan To Cut Security Benefits"

A new Kerry ad that began airing late last week repeats this falsehood even more starkly than at first, claiming Bush and his Republican supporters "were hoping to keep it a secret" that they "are planning to privatize Social Security after the election" and that the plan "cuts Social Security benefits by 30 to 45 percent." It repeats: "Bush and the Republicans, a plan to cut Social Security benefits."

Actually, Bush has repeatedly said he won't cut benefits for anyone currently receiving them, or about to start getting them. His intention to create private Social Security accounts is certainly no "secret" since he talked about that during the campaign four years ago, and in his acceptance speech at the Republican convention in early September. Furthermore, Bush hasn't proposed any specific plan as yet. The "cut" the ad refers to is an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office of the effect of holding starting benefit levels at current levels adjusted only for inflation, rather than pushing them up each year in line with wages as has been done since 1977. For persons born in this decade -- most of whom haven't yet been born -- the CBO figured starting benefits at retirement could be as much as 45% less than under the current formula. Furthermore, doing away with wage-indexing could be done with or without private accounts. It was just one feature of one of three "model" plans put forth by a bipartisan commission Bush set up. Bush hasn't endorsed any of the model plans, nor has he called for dropping wage-indexing.

For full details see "Kerry Falsely Claims Bush Plans To Cut Social Security Benefits" from Oct. 18.

(Note: There are other problematic statements in this ad and the others shown here. We criticize only the portion bold-faced in the scripts, but that shouldn't be taken as endorsement of the rest.)

Bush: "Higher Taxes"

In one of his final ads Bush characterizes the choice between himself and Kerry as one between "tax relief" and "higher taxes."

That is certainly true for anyone making more than $200,000 a year, but false for the great majority.

Kerry has stated unambiguously that he would not increase taxes on anyone making less than $200,000 and is promising additional, targeted tax breaks for some who fall into that category. Bush has systematically distorted, exaggerated and misstated Kerry's record on taxes since the start of the campaign. Initially, his spokesmen accused Kerry of casting 350 votes to raise taxes, which was flatly false. Bush and his ads used the same figure phrased in a duplicitous way, saying Kerry voted 350 times for "higher" taxes, which was misleading because most of those votes were to keep taxes the same -- opposing proposed cuts. Later the Bush campaign retreated to a less indefensible claim, saying Kerry cast 98 votes to "raise" taxes, but even that figure is puffed up by including 43 votes on budget bills that only set targets without actually legislating higher taxes, and as many as 16 votes on a single tax bill. In fact, we found Kerry's voting record to be generally consistent with his promise to raise taxes on those earning the most money.

For details, see "Bush accuses Kerry of 350 votes for 'higher taxes.' Higher than what?" from March 24, and "Bush Still Fudging the Numbers on Kerry's Tax Votes" from August 30. (Also see below for Bush's mischaracterizations of Kerry's positions on taxing gasoline and Social Security).


Just to name a few...

source:
http://www.factcheck.org/article298.html

[sandnsea]

45. Where's Kerry's lies??

Bush is already proposing privatizing social security. If you don't think putting SSI money into private investment accounts is privatizing, you're not able to think clearly. The US does subsidize corporations for taking jobs overseas and Bush did absolutely nothing to stop it. He did nothing to enforce trade agreements, did nothing to help business create jobs in the US, in fact Bush and his administration fully support outsourcing and think it's good for the economy. Well, the economy of their supporters, or in Bush's words, "the haves and have mores".

This is the exact kind of bullshit the media did all summer. Kerry says something that's true, Bush denies it and therefore it's a lie. Bush says something that's a blatant lie, the media throws it all into the "mudslinging" pot.

[tsuki]

48. I have noticed that Bushco lets others put "ideas" out there before

he adopts them. I love this "free lunch" article that appeared in another DU thread. I embolded because it sounds like a cut to me.

""Let me state clearly that there are no free lunches here," said N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, at a conference on tax policy here.

"The benefits now scheduled for future generations under current law are not sustainable given the projected path of payroll tax revenue," he added. "They are empty promises.""

Mr. Mankiw's remarks suggested that President Bush's plan to let people put some of their Social Security taxes into "personal savings accounts" would have to be accompanied by changes in the current system of benefits.


full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/politics/03social.htm...

[Yupster]

20. Don't unload on your mom

Just my advice.

[FoundInTheMaise]

29. Sage advice

Rare around these parts.

[bush_is_wacko]

37. Too late for some of us...

I unloaded on my mom and every member of my email list that is within her age range, for burying their heads in the sand and allowing their grandchildren to clean up the mess their complacency has left behind. I asked her how many of her grand children's flag-draped coffins it would take to make her start whining too!

[Cheswick2.0]

21. your mother is a sheep

She probably doesn't even know what "clear alternative" she was looking for. But the media told her Kerry didn't offer a clear alternative and she believed the media. I would suggest your mother wouldn't know a clear alternative if it bit her in the ass.

[FoundInTheMaise]

28. I would suggest other people's mothers are to be respected

not insulted. But hey, that's just my liberal opinion of moms.

[Gyre]

47. "clear alternative"

is one of those viral memes the repugs were pumping out in advance of the election. (like "tax relief") It's a wonder they bothered since they stole it before and knew they were going to steal it again.

But then again, they needed close numbers to keep the electorate tied up in ambivalence as to whether it really was stolen, thereby preemptively killing the will to engage in civil disobediance.

Gyre

[FoundInTheMaise]

27. Is she mental, in denial, or what?

She is different than you. That is to be accepted regardless if you respect it or not. Live and let live.

[joeprogressive]

30. You have got to be kidding right

There is a difference between being different and selling out your core beliefs. The question was how can an anti-war, non republican vote for Bush? Money is the only thing I can think of and she is lying when she denies that was not a factor. If she's not lying, she is either mental or she is sheeple, following the conservative clan at the country club.

[FoundInTheMaise]

32. She is different than you

Nothing more. Accept it or get over it. There is no other choice.

[joeprogressive]

35. wrong, i can choose to cut her off

If I chose to be a pagan rather than follow god would she be disappointed in me...I think she would. I don't need negative influences around my young son right now, and bush supporters are bad influences period. When she voted for Bush she voted against me and her grandchildren and until she can explain it better than she didn't like Kerry's message she is cut off.

[KSAtheist]

42. What the hell?

I honestly don't get this whole "cutting people off" crap. I can understand distancing yourself from them, but they're flesh and blood.

[bush_is_wacko]

31. I'm discovering the same

Trend in my Dem family. I had a discussion yesterday w/ my parents that made me realize they are a huge part of the problem. There are many baby boomer's out there calling my generation lazy, greedy, unpatriotic, whiners. My mother screamed at me when I told her we have now had more deaths in this war than in the first six years of Vietnam. She told me she didn't care where I was getting my information from she knew it was wrong, because she had friends over there dying left and right, blah, blah, blah. Her head is buried so far in the sand she does not realize that it was my generation that fought in the Persian Gulf War and that it will be her grandichildren's generation that will be fighting in this war. I just sent her an e-mail asking her how many of her grandchildrens flag-draped coffins it will take for her to start whining? I added several more things in that email that I will not go on about, but basically I debunked lazy, greedy, and unpatriotic with their own generational complexities. In fact, I sent that email to everyone on my email list within my parents age range. It is really hard to come to the realization that my parents are more concerned about their next new toy than their children and grandchildren!

[joeprogressive]

33. good point about grandchildren

i forgot that she has one that is 10 meaning he will be of draft age at about the height of this war which is going to drag on a long time if repubs still in control.

[bush_is_wacko]

36. Unfortunately I have 2 children

Who will be mopping up this mess. One will be w/in draft age in less than 4 yrs. The other will be draft age in less than 8 yrs. I have seriously considered leaving this country w/in the next two years to avoid that scenario! In fact, I am still considering it. We are not cowards, we just do not agree w/ this war or the reasons it's being fought! I have many veterans in my family and among my friends. I suppose most of us feel the same way about this war, but apparently my parents generation intends to do NOTHING about it.

Correction, I've been so wrapped up in this political season I forgot they have both had B-Days! They have less than 3 yrs and less than 7 yrs!

[AP]

39. What was the job she thought needs to be done? Did it have to do with

fighting terror?

[AlohaNabors]

41. My suggestion

You should always honor your parents but live a life that shows them the difference. I think that is why people did not vote for Kerry. He need to talk about the economy not Viet Nam and he would have got people like your mom's vote.

I found in life to never dishonor my parents. I just live a life that demands and explanation with them and they ask.

[Nashyra]

43. I am so lucky

My parents are 2 of my best friends, my dad and I got to work togehter on the Clark campaign and he helped me with my Kerry work and my campaign. They are 76 and 71 and they are more fired up now then they have ever been. My dad says he will stay healthy so he can go to an Inauguration in 2008. Hell he wants to go protest in DC in January.. I wrote more but erased it. It's kind of hard sometimes to post because my real name is out there.

[CAN_for_Kerry]

57. :)

nashyra; give your parents a special huge from me, a total dem stranger.

When i read your post my eyes swelled with tears. For your parents "all fired up" attitude at their age and because they have the smarts to know which party is the decent one, again, at their age; as most in their age group buy into the fear mongering bush spews.

BIG HUGS

[seabeyond]

44. talking to repug father the other day

about the new neighbors in there 50's i said, but......they are living in sin. he about gasped, well i think that is ok. no i say, moral values

today talking to him, told him about what the minister preached on the pulpit, bush hero hard worker placed by god, and kerry a murderer

i am giving him bits and pieces as we go. here and there. if i just straight talked him, he would shut me up, but from here on out, everytime i see him i am giving him bits and pieces. in just a couple weeks, already, it is easier for him to listen to me. doing it oh so gently

these people have been brainwashed. think of it as a de culting

[ebayfool]

50. I like your style. I look at all this as a disease, I wouldn't cut off ...

my loved ones if they contracted a disease. I would work to help them & try to cure it. It's like dosing them w/medicine, they may not like the taste - but eventually, they start to get better & take the bits & pieces more willingly. It's starting to work - my hardcore GOP aunt is starting to respond to the news w/an occasional "WTF, he can't do that!?".

[seabeyond]

51. finally after 6 months of pretending political

wasnt there. he one side, me the other, we are chatting about an hour on sunday afternoons. he has been raising two boys, because the father has been in prison for alchol related things and a mother that isnt taking care of boys. he is seeing the school system, and what is up. he is listening to his country club old fart golf buddies in the panhandle of texas say shit, and he experiences the other side with the boys. and father. the government

yesterday talking about mayors, state senator and representative, and the vote for dem judge in town, he knwos them all. he said the repug state senator was a good man. told him, you said the same to me when bushie boy ran in 2000, and you were wrong.

this is texas politics.

my dad didnt challenge, grunt, snort..........instead he tried to gain back my respect and in plead said no no really he is a good guy. we had a special election last spring. my husband a business owner had to pratically plead for me to vote repug for him in special election. the other dude was from midland and all the money in town wanted to keep representation here in this area. told dad yesterday, i voted for them, and i hate republicans, looking him right in the eye. i waz kicking and screamin all down the line, no no dont make me vote repug. you all each one owes me big time. was the funniest.

[joeprogressive]

55. Sometimes it is better to cut

You cut cancer sometimes and I view republicans as a cancer. I will speak to my mother but gone are the days of long meaningful talks because her ideology has been corrupted. It is sad because she has been relegated to the same status as my dad, which is superficial talk with general cordiality. It is ironic that the people I love most in the world are liberal. Not because they agree with me but because they seem to have more love to give me in return.

She can change this by giving me a decent explanation. If she would say it was abortion or that she was just greedy I could at least disagree with an understanding of where she comes from. She is choosing a life of deceit and denial.

[ebayfool]

58. "...people I love most in the world are liberal."

Sorry you are going thru this. I have dropped those that are peripheral in my life, I don't want to use my reserves on them. I'm concentrating on the ones that matter to me the most. Besides, my GOP auntie may not know it, but she really does have the soul of a Democrat - she just has to be exposed to the light so it can be seen! Generous, loving & bossy! She is just too valuable a person to give up on - my father, now that's a different matter. Repub thru & thru, & no redeeming graces or values to make him worth fighting for - 'ya picks your battles', I suppose?!

[dazeconf]

49. W is the first repub my dad ever voted for (he voted Gore in 00)

Please help me understand this...

My father is a social and economic liberal. He is pro choice, supports gay marriage, pro gun control, is against prayer in schools, etc. He favors universal health care, is against privatizing social security, and thinks outsourcing is bad for the economy. As a lawyer, he's angry about the patroit act, and thinks giving the Attorney General the right to refuse anyone the right to an attorney is ridiculous.

My father HATED Nixon and took a year off from school to work for McGovern. Before 2004, my father had never voted for a Republican in any election, presidential or otherwise, ever, to his recollection.

This year, my father voted for George W. Bush.

He would have liked to vote for Lieberman, but Kerry was just "too much of a pacifist." My dad, an educated, rational man who is always informed, voted for a man he truly dislikes simply because he was worried that Kerry would not respond appropriately to an imminent threat or an attack. How could he possibly have believed this? He doesn't give much credence to political ads (the swifties even pissed him off). How could a man who vehemently opposed the Vietnam war support the Iraq war and the war mongerer behind it? I am at a loss.

[wildeyed]

53. Fear makes peole do strange things. n/t

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

52. Republicans moving Democrat in my family...

My moderate Republican family, which includes doctors and corporate lawyers, are totally disgusted with the radical right republican party of today. The bulging deficit and legislating religion is the exact opposite of our moderate republican mindset.

We voted Kerry and liked it.

[wildeyed]

54. My husband is of a similar bent.

He was raised repub, but left the party years ago out of disgust with the deficit spending and radical right religious agenda. Unfortunately, his parents can't make the jump. They are very afraid and very set in their ways. Sad.

[c4550]

59. Family

My family has always been strong Dem. Lately they also have become more conservative. Kerry and Gore have been disasters. I wasn't thrilled with either of them. I doubt the fence sitters felt any different. I wasn't disgruntled to vote for Bush, but I wasn't thrilled with Kerry either. And I couldn't stand Edwards. A lawyer who made a fortune suing? I think we've all had a bad experience with lazy and greedy lawyers. If you haven't had the "pleasure" yet, consider yourself very lucky!