Democrats Deceive Themselves

[kentuck]

By going along with the "war on terror". They know that the way Bush is fighting the war on "terror" is the wrong way to do it. Yet, they say nothing and go along. Those "terrorists" are the number one issue for all Americans, they say. As they watch our democracy disappear right before our eyes, it's all necessary in the war on terror.

As the Bush Administration readies for more troops to be sent to the debacle in Iraq, they say nothing. The "election" has to take place at the end of January, they say. As our own election has questions of legitimacy, they say nothing. They don't want to take an unpopular stand. As our own freedoms are eroded, they go along. They do not speak up. They fail to see the thin ice on which we are treading. And I am very disappointed in the lot of them.

[aquart]

1. "They"? Not "We"?

Who, exactly, are YOU? Since you so clearly are not one of us.

[kentuck]

2. I am not "they"..

And if you are part of "they", then I am not part of "we" either.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. They....... the people in charge who have the power to do something

but will not. So we will take the power from them and give it to others who will do something.

I am a democrat and I know exactly what Kentuck means.

[kentuck]

7. Thanks Cheswick...

We will prevail and fight for our democracy.

[Cookie wookie]

3. Regarding terrorism, Bob Graham says as much in his book

"Intelligence Matters." I'm just finishing the book now. When the war resolution was up for a vote, he knew it couldn't be defeated, so he tried to add an amendment that would include action that was actually really needed for the "war on terrorism." It was an effort by him to address the real problems (of which he judged Hesbollah to be at the top of the list of terrorists to be concerned about and Iraq way down at the bottom). Graham's opinions were dismissed by almost everyone, including democrats. When he took the floor in the house to speak for his amendment, he said (in part):

"I will stand first in line to say he is an evil person. But we, by taking that action, according to our own intelligence reports -- and frieends, I encourage you to read the classified intelligence reports, which are much sharper than waht is available in declassified form--we are going to be increasing the threat level against the people of the United States."

The book goes on to say," I urged my colleagues to open their eyes to the larger array of lethal foes who are prepared today to assault us at home. ....If the hundreds of hours I had spent delving into raw intelligence data, meeting with foreign leaders, and visiting global hotspots had convinced me of one thing, they had convinced me that any single-minded focus on Saddam Hussein as the threat to America was based on a fundamental misreading of the world."

"Intelligence Matters," Bob Graham, p. 197.

When Graham realized that what he was saying was being ignored, and that the resolution to attack Iraq was going to pass, Graham made a heroic last argument on the Senate floor:

"If you do not think we ought to give the President authority to use force against groups such as Hezbollah, what do you thinkwe ought to do? Or do you dissagree with the premise that we are going to be increasing the threat level inside the United States?

If you disagree with that premise, what is the basis upon which your disagreement is predicated? If you reject that, and believe that the American people are not going to be at additional threat, then, frankly, my friends -- to use the term -- blood is going to be on your hands."

ibid.

"My statement got my colleagues' attention, but not their votes. My amendment lost by a vote of 88 to 10."

ibid., p. 198.

[Cookie wookie]

4. Three of the other Democrats who supported the Graham resolution

and one Republican.

Tim Johnson, S.D., Senate, (R) still in office
Max Cleland, Ga., Senate, (D) 1997-2002
Paul Wellstone, Minn., Senate (D) 1990 - 2002
Jan Carnahan, Missouri: Senate (D) Jan 2001 - Nov 25, 2002

Corrected, thanks.

[ljm2002]

8. Ahem... you meant to say "Four of the other Senators..."

"... who supported the Graham resolution" -- right?

Since your list of four includes three Democrats and one Republican.

[kentuck]

9. Tim Johnson is not a Republican ??

:shrug:

[KoKo]

5. My impression from where I am..working with Dem Party officials on this

election and trying to get the vote fraud info out to everyone I worked with from he campaign is: "We do not want to talk about "Fraud!" (and, this is even from the new Progressive Wing (former Dean/Kucinich activists.) There was some reception to looking at evidence from Ohio, NC and FlA just after the "selection" but there's now a clamp down. It started just before Thanksgiving. Lock down.

And, given the kind of stuff I'm seeing posted around here on DU, it seems that a huge effort is being made to make those interested in investigating this election look like "crazy, internet conspiracy theorists fighting among themselves," therefore validating the MSM Lockdown.

One only has to go to the "Elections Forum," here and see the posts about CyberNet and Fisher to know that "something is going on." And, whatever it is, it's isn't good for exposing the voting machines and for getting to the bottom of "how did they do it." The distraction follows the "lock down."

Those of us who have been involved with this for the last four years are being used by the PsyOps or whomever...imho.. We know something is going on, but aren't sure where it's coming from, especially when it seems it's both parties involved. :shrug: "Disinformation" seems to be the the "New Order." It will alienate the sincere, and drive out the new folks whom we needed to begin to rebuild our party.

[mattclearing]

10. If that's the case...

Then American politics is truly the province of the powerful and the gullible.

[KoKo]

11. They are concentrating on building "grassroots" for the coming years,

though. Election discussion is focused on trying to stop additional "Touch Screens" from being purchased in the state. That's good, but it doesn't address what when wrong inside the OptiScans or the machines already here. Perhaps the feeling is that if anything comes out of the
hand counts in WA and Ohio and NM it will be applicable. Until then it's Move Along. While I understand that, I just think they should be working on confiscated some of the machines which lost votes and overcounted rather than waiting for other states to do it for them. And, also it makes those of us who do want an investigation feel left out and "fringe."

[mattclearing]

13. Why are we worried about this?

Grassroots for what? So we can throw a really kickin' defeat party every two years?

This is the only issue that matters. We will never elect anything again until it is solved.

Why are we smarter than the people in charge of our party?

[KoKo]

24. Maybe it's because folks don't like "change?" Status Quo as "loser" is

more advantageous to getting contributions (in the "OLD" style of thinking) than waging all out war and possibly losing your DLC "middle of the Left" faction. :shrug:

[mattclearing]

25. This is three elections in a row they have lost playing it safe.

At what point do they toss the playbook and try something else?

Hell, Dean got them millions in grassroots fundraising through the internet. He got nothing in thanks.

The Democratic leadership is an abomination. Even Bill Clinton is starting to act like a pod person. WTF?

[Adelante]

12. Why?

would the so-called "progressive" wing be going along with this? Any idea?

[mattclearing]

15. Maybe...

They've been told bad things will happen if they don't.

Who knows? Nothing in the realm of normal discourse explains the madness that has engulfed our political system. It's time to start considering things that no one wants to believe.

[mogster]

14. Bingo!

The 'War' on terror has never been a war.

But I don't think the Dems are deceiving themselves to believe that either ;-)

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

17. I don't have enough corporate connections...

or the money...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. I wish someone (or a lot of someones) had stood up the minute Bushboy

began playing the terror card and said, "Look here, American people, there's no such thing as terrorism. Sure, there are people who crash airliners into buildings and people who release poison gas in subways, but terrorism isn't a movement; it's a tactic used by all kinds of groups, from the far left to the far right. Terrorist groups come and go, and they are best caught through police work and espionage, not through military campaigns. After all, having the world's largest military, bar none, did not protect us on September 11, but good undercover work would have."

But no, everyone went along and said,"Yeah, let's bomb some poor subsistence farmers who had nothing to do with 9/11. That'll show 'em." And later, "Sure, let's go fight terrorism by attacking one of the few countries in the Middle East that has no use for Islamic fundamentalists."

This was in spite of the fact that hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. and millions around the world said that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that Iraq would become a quagmire, and that the war would ruin America's already shaky reputation in the world.

I know how the mythical prophet Cassandra felt. We prophesied, we were right, and the Busheviks chose to flout us.

[mattclearing]

19. Dead-on correct.

I have been saying similar things for some time now.

[GFGOHR]

20. How would most of U fight WOT.

How would most of you fight the WAR on Terror. Or is it like Micheal Moore said there really is no WOT. I would have cleaned out the Talaban firts and then moved on. Any one else with any ideas, i.e. giving up on the Jews, etc.

[welshTerrier2]

21. the best way to fight the war on terror ...

would be to imprison those who are promoting it ... that would include bush, cheney, rumsfeld and the entire PNAC crowd ...

i would also block the U.S. from supporting tyrants like Saddam the way we did ... i would also take a long hard look at making the U.S. a more responsible global citizen ...

I would insist that Americans get more exposure in schools and through the MSM about other cultures ... i would make the U.S. stop exploiting worldwide natural resources disproportionately to our population ...

I would show some respect for the U.N. which, while not perfect, is a whole lot better than allowing one superpower to dictate the terms to every other country on the planet ...

i would ban all paid lobbyists who promote the interests of the corporations they represent regardless of its impact on the citizens in the U.S. and across the globe ...

I would substantially reduce the amount of money we spend overseas on military crap and CIA crap ... i would use this money to make us safer by helping truly needy cultures around the world ...

that's enough to get things moving in the right direction ... if you think we can win a war on terror militarily, you haven't learned anything from either Vietnam or from Iraq ...

[DrWeird]

22. Moved on to where?

Iraq?

[kentuck]

23. I would not have preemptively invaded another country....

that was not proven to have anything to do with the attack of 9/11. I would have searched down those in Afghanistan that were at the root of the attack - as best we could tell. I owuld have stayed on the trail of Osama bin Laden until he was captured. I would not have over 1200 Americans killed in Iraq. I would not have lied to the people about WMDs and nuclear weapons, then later change the reason to "freedom" for the Iraqi people. I would not have turned this into a world-wide war on terrorism. For goodness sakes, we were attacked by people with boxcutters - not nuclear weapons. We permitted ourselves to be led by the lies of a moron and misled into a disastrous war that has now turned into a quagmire. And most people here predicted it. It was foreseeable.