Just got off the phone with my Repuke mother :(

[tridim]

and she broke the no-talking-politics rule.. Of course she had no idea that Ohio was being recounted. She called me "crazy", "angry" and an "Internet conspiracy theorist". She said, "Everything you read on the Internet is either false or can't be proven", and "Just accept it, the election was 'lawful'". She thought I should just forget about it, and "go out and be happy".

I ended the conversation by asking, "Can you tell me one thing that is going well in this country?" Her answers.. "Bush was elected again" and "The Republicans gained in Congress" and "The economy is roaring back". All complete hogwash. I told her so.

Needless to say, it was a disappointing conversation and I'm now shaking and very upset. I'm going to be visiting my family over Xmas, and to be honest, I feel like canceling the trip. I love my family, but this is just too much. What to do?

[medeak]

1. am so sorry

am married to one and inlaws are cartoon characters. Keep your sense of humor and know you can't change minds...but keep working and you may change others.

[Pirate Smile]

4. Oh, no. Your life sounds like mine. The cartoon character freeper in-laws

fits too perfectly.

[Arkana]

2. If she's that far gone, there isn't much you can do...

but don't ruin Christmas over it. Neocons like to think they can beat down the "libruls" with crappy rhetoric, so just go, have a good time, and it'll spite your mom.

[Maat]

7. Calm down. You may have to acknowledge your mom...

but you don't have to either agree with her or hang around her much.

I'm going to visit the Fundie-pro-Bush in-laws next week. If they start in, I've decided to excuse myself (I'm going to have to be going to the ladies room at the hotel we are all staying at quite a bit - 'bladder' problem, I guess).

Anyway, I've decided to control the encounter, be polite, and get it over with. For the sake of my daughter.

[Maat]

10. Hey...you may have to occasionally acknowledge your mom..

but you don't have to either agree with her or hang around her much.

I'm going to visit the Fundie-pro-Bush in-laws next week. If they start in, I've decided to excuse myself (I'm going to have to be going to the ladies room at the hotel we are all staying at quite a bit - 'bladder' problem, I guess).

Anyway, I've decided to control the encounter, be polite, and get it over with. For the sake of my daughter

[Bullshot]

97. When Bush reinstates the draft and

the economy slides into its next recession, then ask your mother if she wants to talk.

But then again, she may blame all of this on the liberals who we all know have been dominating the government for the past 10 years.

[benburch]

3. Cancel the trip

And tell them why.

If they cannot respect your political views, then they no longer respect YOU.

[ooglymoogly]

20. ditto on that i have repuke relatives. i no longer communicate

with them. its hard but i blame them for the war the 100,000 dead and counting and this country going down the crapper and democracy stolen and i just can't forgive them for that. and guess what? i no lognger shake when i think of them.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemperEadem]

90. but it goes further than disagreement on politics

it goes to power struggles and control issues with some people... and because they know tridim better than we do, they know which buttons to push... they can't help but to fall into their dysfunction to chastise and berate tridim about the election, being 'controlling for sport' by singling him/her out for ridicule over their presidential/political party choice.

Respect dictates that they not attempt this mine field for the sake
of a pleasant holiday experience.

so, it does lead to a respect, or lack of respect, issue for tridim--because mother already doesn't possess enough respect to let tridim make his/her own choices or have his/her own views. She doesn't respect her child enough to leave a volitile and divisive subject alone for the sake of harmony within the family.

[skypilot]

5. When did the internet go from being...

...the Information Superhighway to being a dumping ground for "internet conspiracies"? Some people are just so dismissive of the Internet--or as Bush would call it, "The Internets"--these days. I wonder when that started to happen.

[mogster]

99. True

On the contrary, I think the Internet is the only place you can GET the real truth.

But one has to really hang out, to filter out the pulp.
Takes a lot of reading to get the picture, and even then it's OK to 'de-radicalize' once a while.

Everyone is subject to groupthink, I guess.

But not everyone turns it into a trade mark like the Repubs, of course ;-)

[mogster]

100. Let me add: This forum is one hell of a information source n/t

[Jo March]

6. I feel for you! That is awful!

I am in your situation. Both my mother and my sister are repubs. It makes me so upset. I have avoided them like the plague even though I'm still trying to work on mending fences. I can't stand to talk to them since the election.

My motto: Life is too short to be miserable. If I have to deal with someone who makes me want to crawl into a bottle of Lexapro, then I don't need to spend much time with them.

I'm sure that with all of the colds going around, you'll catch something that causes you to stay home on Christmas. It's a shame, too, because we all know how much you wanted to go home.

;)

:hug:

[4democracy]

8. I think I would try to keep chanting to myself, Please give me the

serenity to change the things I can, to accept the things I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference!(loosely paraphrased) Good luck about half my family are also repugs, I think they are all about to get a rude awakening!

[luaneryder]

9. When did this

"everything on the Internet is false" thing start? I've been hearing it more and more (esp. from Repubs), yet they too have Internet access. I don't hear any of them saying the same thing of hate radio, in fact, they parrot Rush and the rest word for word. I'm sorry, tridim, that sux and will make for an uncomfortable holiday all around.

[Maat]

15. It makes a whole lot of sense to me that the Republicans are ..

trying to discredit the stuff on the internet. Read tbrnews.org - particularly the Voice in the White House columns. This is the one place they cannot control via their corporate friends. Their buddy Murdoch owns the majority of American newspapers, their Clear Channel friends own the majority of radio stations, their corporate buddies (G.E., Murdoch) own the cable news channels, but certain individuals can learn the truth by accessing diverse websites. They cannot have the sheeple (their flock) learning the truth via experimenting with the web, so they have to discredit it. I sincerely doubt that they will control the web - it would be prohibitively expensive to engage in the minutist effort.

[SweetLeftFoot]

69. False Internet stuff

The Republicans didn't seem to care about the veracity of Internet rumours/facts when it came to Clinton did they, especially with Drudge.

[cornermouse]

11. She's your mother.

And if you don't go home and something awful happens to her, you'll regret it. You really will.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Nobody has a duty to offer him/herself for abuse at the hands of a dork

Mother or not.

[whistle]

12. In case I believe you are entitled to authorize mercy matricide...

...That's meant as a joke.....:loveya:

I'm sure you love your mother very much, but I think you should discuss alternative medications to possibly slow her down considerably, at least until Bush is either booted out of office for stealing this election or he finishes the next term in complete disgrace. Your mother shouldn't be exposed to either of these disappointments anyway, so you would be doing her and the rest of the family a big favor.

[From the south]

13. Dont argue....

just agree with her and let it drop...there is no point argueing with some people.

That and she is your mother. Dont let her views screw up your relationship with her.

[glarius]

14. Have a "Definitely no poltics rule" to apply through Xmas ....if anyone

breaks it they pay a token penalty....Christmas should not be spent arguing with your family....Good luck!...:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. The economy is roaring back?

News to me. :wow: So glad my parents are Dems. Can't you explain to your mom that she hurts you when she tells you to "just accept it" and calls you "an Internet conspiracy theorist?" Tough spot to be in with your family. :-(

[faithfulcitizen]

17. Don't skip Christmas w/ your family...

we all have family members that are brainwashed. Tell your mom & others that you feel very deeply about your political issues and you just HAVE to COMPLETELY avoid politics. Then, tell your mom you love her anyway. :)

[TwentyFive]

18. Why is your mother a republican?

Everybody has their reasons. Sometimes, it's a link back to a parent or some past event that shaped her life. If so, she will view world events so that they will confirm her political beliefs. Debating somebody like this is like banging your head up against a brick wall.

If you go back, just ask her a lot of questions to find out why she is a republican. The answer she gives you first off will not be the real answer. You will have to get inside her head and do some digging.

This will not change her, but at least you will have a bit of peace of mind, and know her better.

[Verve]

19. I feel for you! I to have a repub mother, father, siblings and hubby!

Fortunately, my hubby saw the light when Shrub and Cheney were trying to convince people 9/11 and Iraq are connected. He now hates Shrub more than I do. However, to stay close to his roots he voted Kerry and then a straight Repub ticket. (Despite a couple of really idiotic Repub local candidates.) Oh well! I digress.

My mother and I also have a nonverbal agreement not to talk politics. When we do, which has happened a few times lately, it's a shouting match. We then go back to denial and try not to bring up the subject anymore. It's a vicious cycle.

Unfortunately, my mom is flying in to see me this Wednesday. (straight from a very red state of course!) I was so looking forward to watching the C-span Congressional hearings that day. That is so not going to happen. In fact if anything breaks in the media this week I'm going to miss it! I'm so bummed! Yet, family is family and the holidays are here once again. Just thank God they're not every month!

[Mad_Dem_X]

30. UGH! I couldn't be married to a repuke!

I'm glad he's seeing the light, tho'. I was fortunate to have grown up in a house full of Dems, most of my friends are liberals, as is my husband (otherwise he wouldn't be my husband - lol).

[arewenotdemo]

33. good point

I always figured that good sex must override political philosophy in "mixed" marriages.

Then I saw Mary Matalin on Meet the Press.

:scared:

[grumpy44]

87. Tivo has solved all my TV issues

I don't miss anything anymore.

I don't even know what time things are normally on.

My Republican parents are always up for an argument if I want to go there, but they never hold grudges and if things get too out of hand my father will always crack some stupid joke to cut the tension and then it's over.

Republicans don't lose sleep over our political beliefs, we shouldn't lose sleep over theirs.

[newyawker99]

112. Hi grumpy44!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ElectroPrincess]

21. Try to forgive her ...

Never talk politics with your fundie Mom! You're right. :-) Mine is elderly and has had a massive heart attack two years ago. When she talks politics, I don't add to the conversation and change the topic as soon as possible.

When you see your parent's mortality ... or when they are physically fragile ... you never know when you may lose them. I despise my Mom's right wing conservative views more than words can say, i.e., she adores Ma Barker (Barbara Bush). However, I love my Mother. It's easier for me to practice patience with her now that she's elderly and in assisted living, i.e., a wake up call that I may soon lose her.

[Contrary1]

22. The Shrub will be gone in 4 years...

even though the havoc will still be with us. Family is forever.
To allow this nitwit's policies to undermine your relationship
with your mother only adds to the damage. He's not worth it.

I know it's hard, but just let it go.

[midnight armadillo]

23. Wanna trade moms?

My mother's a flaming narcissist who will NOT LEAVE ME ALONE to save her life, even though I had to cut ties with her to preserve my sanity and to protect my family from the emotional shitstorm she always tries to put us through.

I'll trade you. Any time!

[prolesunited]

24. Just have everyone agree NOT to talk politics

and if they do, they have to donate X number of dollars to charity, perhaps unwed mothers or an AIDS crisis center.

Chances are, they won't be able to refrain and you can just smile knowing that they will have to donate to a liberal cause. Better collect the money upfront, though, and do it yourself so you know it gets done.

I had an argument (not about politics) with my mom right before she died. To this day, I regretted that our last words to each other were harsh ones. It's just not worth it, really. Find a way and go and enjoy Christmas.

[roguevalley]

25. Sounds like my uncle vern, the idiot. Hugs to you, honey. You can

Christmas here. We love ya.

[dawn_fayhe]

26. Conservatives Fault

I can feel your pain. I have simmilar experiences with my family! :(

However, I believe it is all Conservatives fault like Ann Coulter going on TV and saying everything is alright when in reality "Bush lied, kids died!" :(

[newyawker99]

71. Hi dawn_fayhe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[formernaderite]

27. We also practice the No politics, or religion or money talk...

...it works well, and of course sometimes some family member breaks it. The second rule is NEVER to respond. So far that rule works most well. We're a laid back clan on both sides....and apart from our politics, religion or lack of religion are alright people. When your mother started in on you...you should have invoked the No politics rule, and told her you'd have to call her back.

I'm an atheist who enjoys Christmas because we all get together. My advice: Enjoy Christmas with your family. It really is more important.

[tridim]

29. I really want to just enjoy the visit

and obviously family is more important than Bush stealing another election. The thing that upset me the most is that I honestly think my mom believes I'm crazy. I have to defend that accusation because otherwise her views of the "crazy Liberal who refuses to move on" are reinforced. It's a big ol' honkin' paradox.

[formernaderite]

54. Okay, so she thinks you're crazy....not the worst thing you know....

just come to an agreement before hand. I'm known as the proud whacky liberal in my family...my wife is the whacky Libertarian. We get nagged about a lot more than just our political lifestyle. Anyway, I've always found that LOVE melts their hearts, and I enjoy the break from thinking about politcs etc. while visiting family.

[ArkDem]

28. Who told her that the republicans 'gained in congress'?

[reformed_military]

32. Are you saying that we did?

?

[ArkDem]

70. I was pointing out a problem with his statement below

>Her answers.. "Bush was elected again" and "The Republicans gained in Congress" and "The economy is roaring back". All complete hogwash. I told her so.<

[ernstbass]

31. Your Mom sounds just like my Mom

and I know just how you feel!! I didn't go around my family (except Dem brother) on thanksgiving and I probably willl only visit briefly on Christmas. The divides are just too great and I refuse to be discounted or ridiculed - I think it's time for repug relatives to suck it up - not us!!!

[PatriotGames]

78. Isn't it sad that Bush has done this good a job dividing us?

[ibegurpard]

34. Anyone who doesn't agree with my political philosophy

and tries to start a political discussion with me over the holidays will get their head ripped off. I won't start it but if someone else does, woe unto them.

[maxsolomon]

35. i'll be contrary: don't go.

go ahead & cancel your visit. tell her why.

tell her you cannot be civil about it & cannot avoid the topic. maybe next year, but not this year. not when innocents are dying every day for our cheap gasoline.

and then next year when no one will admit to voting for bush, go & gloat.

yes i have GOP relatives. all of them except my 3 siblings & their spouses.

[Jack Bone]

37. I agree...to some extent

let them know you're considering the cancellation and why...

If they can't accept the way you feel and "agree to disagree" then the holidays won't be happy or enjoyable for any of you...and who wants that?? Family should rise above the frey..but if they can't..don't ruin your holiday fighting...stay @ your HOME...invite some friends over and make the most of the season.

[lojasmo]

36. cancel the trip. N/T

[goddess40]

38. Take this year off - cancel the trip and let them know why

We're not going to x-mas at the hubby's parents until New Years because I won't put up with the nutjob republican's on his, or my side of the family. Thankfully my mother and father - law voted for Kerry.
My own mother is still in a deep funk over the stolen election

[Walt Starr]

39. Cancel the trip now, write her off

That's what I would do in your shoes.

[Dawgs]

40. Time to get brutal..

Send her the pictures of Iraqi children covered with blood and blown off arms... ask her if they are "false and can't be proven".

Time to play dirty I'm afraid.

[DireStrike]

42. Haha... good idea... I guess

I don't know how this guy feels about his mother but that's what I'd do.

[DireStrike]

41. Cancel the trip

I don't understand how people get so connected to their families.

But then, my parents went through a bitter divorce and I'm a loner.


All of my family members(that I know of) are dems at this point, but if they weren't I'd have no problem cutting the cord to anyone.

[LiberalFighter]

43. Canceling THIS year should be based on certain factors...

How old you are.
How old your mother is and her health.

If you cancel it should only be for this year for that reason.

In the meantime you need to arm yourself with information.
Does your mother use the internet? If she does why is she if she thinks everything on it is false or can't be proven?

Where does she get most of her news? FOX? CNN? ABC? CBS? NBC? Radio Talk? CBN? Newspapers? ET? Reality TV?

Is your father alive and living with your mother? Does he agree with her? If not... can you help him to open her eyes when it there are Social Security, Medicare and other senior citizen issues effecting them? If not... you need to provide the data yourself in a subtle way.

As for her answers?? What??? Should had asked her how bush getting elected again did that.. how repugs gaining in congress did that.. and if she understands how the economy works.

Did your mother raise you to accept what others tell you or to have a mind of your own?

[tridim]

45. Answers to your questions..

>How old you are.
34

>How old your mother is and her health.
60 something, her health is fine although she has lots of minor problems, and is on meds for anxiety.

>Does your mother use the Internet? If she does why is she if she >thinks everything on it is false or can't be proven?
She does, but she's a neophyte. She thinks everything is false because Faux tells her that's the case. At least I assume that's why. It's hard to figure out because we can't talk about politics.

>Where does she get most of her news? FOX? CNN? ABC? CBS? NBC? Radio >Talk? CBN? Newspapers? ET? Reality TV?
Faux and some CNN. Local paper.

>Is your father alive and living with your mother? Does he agree with >her?
My father is alive and they're still married. He's worse than my Mom (retired defense contractor), but respects my beliefs more and usually manages to stay quiet. Two years ago during Xmas he started yelling at me and I almost left. I think he also knows I'm smarter and more informed than both of them.

>As for her answers?? What??? Should had asked her how bush getting >elected again did that.. how repugs gaining in congress did that.. >and if she understands how the economy works.
She knew her answers were lame. Again, I blame Faux.

>Did your mother raise you to accept what others tell you or to have >a mind of your own?
Not really. I think she's upset that I didn't inherit their beliefs.

One other point.. Neither of my parents are Fundies. They're just typical midwestern Conservatives who think that all Liberals are wacko. It's always been that way. My Mom was fine until she started listening to Rush Limbaugh, now she thinks she's a well informed political junkie. She thinks she knows everything even though she ignores all news except Faux. I think they know I'm right and they're wrong, but Rush has convinced her that even when you're wrong you shouldn't give an inch.

[LiberalFighter]

47. I should had stated that the questions weren't really for me but for you

to help you make the decision(s) that you felt best to make.

When politics does come up again prepare yourself with answers not to challenge them but to open their eyes. Let them know that you consider the benefits and consequences if any of those actions by our elected officials. And their true motives.

Slip in a subtle comment about something once in awhile. Make sure that it appears innocent. Provide them with facts from first rate sources. Make sure to disprove whenever possible anything that she hears the rw has to say especially what she hears from FAUX or even CNN.

If you know what are her hot button issues you can push her to explain how that helps her in retirement how it helps her do the things she needs or enjoys. Send her material... synopsis with links to additional sources that she can check out herself. The key is don't overload her but give her enough that she thinks she needs to find out more.

If you know she doesn't know... ask her who are all of her elected officials. Have it handy on a piece of paper and give it to her when she doesn't know. With their mailing addresses and phone numbers.

I was at my relatives for Thanksgiving and the topic came up about politics and I politely disputed their statements... then asked if they knew who was their U.S. Representative. They tried telling me that it was a Senator. And they only knew one of their Senators. I got my PDA out and looked it up and told them who it probably was based on address.

[Bouncy Ball]

46. Honestly?

I would cancel it. But that's just me. I'd find some friends to hang out with or go on a small out of town trip either by myself or with someone else, something.

Find a nice Dem friend who isn't visiting their families at the holidays and have a good time with them!

[Paranoid_Portlander]

48. My aunt loves Bush, because Clinton had sex with Monica.

She apparently was afraid that Kerry might have sex with her too, so my aunt voted for Bush. Sex is so icky (she said), and no one is stopping Monica. Aunt says the only unbiased news is Faux. She also loves that tax cut. Never mind the fact that her income has been driven to near zero, and is too small to tax, thanks to Alan Greenspan's financial screwings. I'm sure she will still love Bush when she finds herself living in a cardboard box.

[MaroonVette]

49. Take the high road and don't engage her in politics

Mothers are special people and deserve special treatment.

Try to make Christmas pleasant for your mother.

[Bridget Burke]

79. The family had a "no talking about politics" rule.

The mother violated it. I'm sure she'll be happier if her daughter avoids her this Christmas; her daughter surely will be.

[OnionPatch]

50. Normally I would say forget it and go

but this year is different.

I don't blame anyone for going. If you feel you must, they ARE your family. But for some of us, our democracy, our country is so important to us that we can't pretend everything is OK. In fact, I think it's good to make a stand.

And as for "not talking politics" BULLSHIT!! Why should we NOT talk politics with our families? When we don't talk politics with our families and neighbors, guess who DOES......Rush Limbaugh and Shaun Hannity, that's who. This rule that you can't talk politics was made up by right wingers. They want to make sure none of us talk to each other so Rush Limbaugh can do the talking for them.

As for me, I only know a few Bush voters and they are NOT on my list this year. My country means more to me than a friendly chat with an ignorant cousin.

[sueh]

58. You're right, Onion Patch...

My husband's family NEVER want to talk about politics because our views differ from theirs. I had a heated discussion with a brother-in-law (who lives just outside of Columbus OH) who really believes to this day Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 and supports the war in Iraq. My in-laws are Protestants (nothing wrong with that) BUT they have fallen hook, line and sinker for Bush's "born again" act and truly believe he is chocked full of morals. Never mind my bro-in-law's son (age 36, married, 3 kids) was an Army reservist could get called up again. His youngest son, married, baby on the way, but some complications have developed. Hmmm, will their insurance company pay the bills for a high risk pregnancy?

If I have to listen to their constant professing and sharing with me the magnificent things the Lord has done for them, then they have to listen to me when I profess and share with them the horrible things Bush has done to all of us.

Thanks for letting me vent. I feel better.

[mhr]

51. Cancel - Live Is Too Short For That Type Of Stress!

eom

[wellstone dem]

52. Once again,

I am very grateful for my parents.

However, I think this Christmas, my daughter who is furious about how my fundamentalist christian sister told me 30 years ago that my parents would go to hell because they weren' born again, is likely to start an argument with my sister at Christmas. It doesn't matter that my sister appologized 15 years ago. Ahh the passion of a 17 year old.

[Gloria]

53. I live with a mother like that...at least you don't live with yours!

It's just one big upset after another in my house.....So, I can empathize, esp. if you're not used to it. It's a shock to the system.

[DARE to HOPE]

56. If it's any comfort, my Mom voted for Kerry, but she doesn't want to hear

anything either! There is a certain generation who survives by living in denial. "Hey, Kerry conceded, so it's over!" People cannot live in a constant state of anxiety, except for the stronger ones among us. :-)

She probably WANTS to believe what she says. Just hug her hard, say you love her (she wasn't the only one who voted for Bush, you know--and hey, anyway, Kerry DID WIN!) sigh deeply, and let her know you are just very sad about a lot that is being done in the name of our country.

I do think you could calmly tell her about the democratizing nature of the Internet, that you have access to international newspapers and news from around the country. So maybe a lot of what you know is a little too "cutting edge," but you do believe in what you know.

I was the heretic in my own family, from the 1970's on. Everything I was upset and activist about has come to be seen, grudgingly of course, as, in the long run, more or less TRUE. My folks both voted for Reagan twice and Bush Sr. But then my Mom switched to Clinton, and has not looked back. They will never say it--but my views did have influence.

Christmas is a time when God shares Love with the whole world. My Republican father is gone, and I so miss him. Love is more powerful than all the rage and evil in this world, kid. Love your mother, even just as she is.

[Andromeda]

55. Your mother is in denial

and there's nothing you can do to change her mind.

When you have Republicans in your family this is something that's bound to happen unless your family members are philanthropically evolved. Without some kind life-altering epiphany parents are unlikely change their opinions.

In my case it's my son. We don't talk politics -- at all! The last time we did we got in a terrible fight and so we agreed to agree to disagree.

If you feel more comfortable staying home, just send Mum and Dad Xmas greetings and tell them you must stay home to take care of the nasty little "bug" that seems to be attacking you -- after all, you don't want to make everybody ill.

[LittleClarkie]

57. The economy is roaring back?

We had another disappointing month for job gains, and the dollar is dropping. What a quiet roar.

[grasswire]

59. I wonder....

...if your mom saw John Eisenhower's letter stating his reasons for voting for John Kerry. You could ask her to look at it, and tell her that you won't ever support Bush because of his liberal spending of tax dollars and his refusal to veto any spending. He is irresponsible with money. Always has been. He just isn't conservative.

Here's Eisenhower's letter:



John Eisenhower's letter FOR Kerry

Why I will vote for John Kerry for President
By JOHN EISENHOWER
Guest Commentary

The Presidential election to be held this coming Nov. 2 will be one of extraordinary importance to the future of our nation. The outcome will determine whether this country will continue on the same path it has followed for the last 3½ years or whether it will return to a set of core domestic and foreign policy values that have been at the heart of what has made this country great.

Now more than ever, we voters will have to make cool judgments, unencumbered by habits of the past. Experts tell us that we tend to vote as our parents did or as we "always have." We remained loyal to party labels. We cannot afford that luxury in the election of 2004. There are times when we must break with the past, and I believe this is one of them.

As son of a Republican President, Dwight D. Eisenhower, it is automatically expected by many that I am a Republican. For 50 years, through the election of 2000, I was. With the current administration's decision to invade Iraq unilaterally, however, I changed my voter registration to independent, and barring some utterly unforeseen development, I intend to vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate, Sen. John Kerry.

The fact is that today's "Republican" Party is one with which I am totally unfamiliar. To me, the word "Republican" has always been synonymous with the word "responsibility," which has meant limiting our governmental obligations to those we can afford in human and financial terms. Today's whopping budget deficit of some $440 billion does not meet that criterion.

Responsibility used to be observed in foreign affairs. That has meant respect for others. America, though recognized as the leader of the community of nations, has always acted as a part of it, not as a maverick separate from that community and at times insulting towards it. Leadership involves setting a direction and building consensus, not viewing other countries as practically devoid of significance. Recent developments indicate that the current Republican Party leadership has confused confident leadership with hubris and arrogance.

In the Middle East crisis of 1991, President George H.W. Bush marshaled world opinion through the United Nations before employing military force to free Kuwait from Saddam Hussein. Through negotiation he arranged for the action to be financed by all the industrialized nations, not just the United States. When Kuwait had been freed, President George H. W. Bush stayed within the United Nations mandate, aware of the dangers of occupying an entire nation.

Today many people are rightly concerned about our precious individual freedoms, our privacy, the basis of our democracy. Of course we must fight terrorism, but have we irresponsibly gone overboard in doing so? I wonder. In 1960, President Eisenhower told the Republican convention, "If ever we put any other value above (our) liberty, and above principle, we shall lose both." I would appreciate hearing such warnings from the Republican Party of today.

The Republican Party I used to know placed heavy emphasis on fiscal responsibility, which included balancing the budget whenever the state of the economy allowed it to do so. The Eisenhower administration accomplished that difficult task three times during its eight years in office. It did not attain that remarkable achievement by cutting taxes for the rich. Republicans disliked taxes, of course, but the party accepted them as a necessary means of keep the nation's financial structure sound.

The Republicans used to be deeply concerned for the middle class and small business. Today's Republican leadership, while not solely accountable for the loss of American jobs, encourages it with its tax code and heads us in the direction of a society of very rich and very poor.

Sen. Kerry, in whom I am willing to place my trust, has demonstrated that he is courageous, sober, competent, and concerned with fighting the dangers associated with the widening socio-economic gap in this country. I will vote for him enthusiastically.

I celebrate, along with other Americans, the diversity of opinion in this country. But let it be based on careful thought. I urge everyone, Republicans and Democrats alike, to avoid voting for a ticket merely because it carries the label of the party of one's parents or of our own ingrained habits.

John Eisenhower, son of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, served on the White House staff between October 1958 and the end of the Eisenhower administration. From 1961 to 1964 he assisted his father in writing "The White House Years," his Presidential memoirs. He served as American ambassador to Belgium between 1969 and 1971. He is the author of nine books, largely on military subjects.

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=44657

[grasswire]

60. also...

...here are the hints that Dr. George Lakoff (professor at Berkeley who is helping Dems shape the new message) provides for talking with conservatives:

Progressive values are the best of traditional American values. Stand up for your values with dignity and strength. You are a true patriot because of your values.

Remember that right-wing ideologues have convinced half of the country that the strict father family model, which is bad enough for raising children, should govern our national morality and politics. This is the model that the best in American values has defeated over and over again in the course of our history—from the emancipation of the slaves to women’s suffrage, Social Security and Medicare, civil rights and voting rights acts, and Brown v. the Board of Education and Roe v. Wade. Each time we have unified our country more behind our finest traditional values.

Remember that everybody has both strict and nurturant models, either actively or passively, perhaps active in different parts of their lives. Your job is to activate for politics the nurturant, progressive values already there (perhaps only passively) in your interlocutors.

Show respect to the conservatives you are responding to. No one will listen to you if you don’t accord them respect. Listen to them. You may disagree strongly with everything that is being said, but you should know what is being said. Be sincere. Avoid cheap shots. What if they don’t show you respect? Two wrongs don’t make a right. Turn the other cheek and show respect anyway. That takes character and dignity. Show character and dignity.

Avoid a shouting match. Remember that the radical right requires a culture war, and shouting is the discourse form of that culture war. Civil discourse is the discourse form of nurturant morality. You win a victory when the discourse turns civil. They win when they get you to shout.

What if you have moral outrage? You should have moral outrage. But you can display it with controlled passion. If you lose control, they win.

Distinguish between ordinary conservatives and nasty ideologues. Most conservatives are personally nice people, and you want to bring out their niceness and their sense of neighborliness and hospitality.

Be calm. Calmness is a sign that you know what you are talking about.

Be good-humored. A good-natured sense of humor shows you are comfortable with yourself.

Hold your ground. Always be on the offense. Never go on defense. Never whine or complain. Never act like a victim. Never plead. Avoid the language of weakness, for example, rising intonations on statements. Your voice should be steady. Your body and voice should show optimism. You should convey passionate conviction without losing control.

Conservatives have parodied liberals as weak, angry (hence not in control of their emotions), weak-minded, softhearted, unpatriotic, uninformed, and elitist. Don’t give them any opportunities to stereotype you in any of these ways. Expect these stereotypes, and deal with them when they come up.

By the way you conduct yourself, show strength, calmness, and control; an ability to reason; a sense of realism; love of country; a command of the basic facts; and a sense of being an equal, not a superior. At the very least you want your audience to think of you with respect, as someone they may disagree with but who they have to take seriously. In many situations this is the best you can hope for. You have to recognize those situations and realize that a draw with dignity is a victory in the game of being taken seriously.

Many conversations are ongoing. In an ongoing conversation, your job is to establish a position of respect and dignity, and then keep it.

Don’t expect to convert staunch conservatives.

You can make considerable progress with biconceptuals, those who use both models but in different parts of their life. They are your best audience. Your job is to capture territory of the mind. With biconceptuals your goal is to find out, if you can by probing, just which parts of their life they are nurturant about. For example, ask who they care about the most, what responsibilities they feel they have to those they care about, and how they carry out those responsibilities. This should activate their nurturant models as much as possible. Then, while the nurturant model is active for them, try linking it to politics. For example, if they are nurturant at home but strict in business, talk about the home and family and how they relate to political issues. Example: Real family values mean that your parents, as they age, don’t have to sell their home or mortgage their future to pay for health care or the medications they need.

Avoid the usual mistakes. Remember, don’t just negate the other person’s claims; reframe. The facts unframed will not set you free. You cannot win just by stating the true facts and showing that they contradict your opponent’s claims. Frames trump facts. His frames will stay and the facts will bounce off. Always reframe.

If you remember nothing else about framing, remember this: Once your frame is accepted into the discourse, everything you say is just common sense.* Why? Because that’s what common sense is: reasoning within a commonplace, accepted frame.

Never answer a question framed from your opponent’s point of view. Always reframe the question to fit your values and your frames. This may make you uncomfortable, since normal discourse styles require you to directly answer questions posed. That is a trap. Practice changing frames.

Be sincere. Use frames you really believe in, based on values you really hold.

A useful thing to do is to use rhetorical questions: *Wouldn’t it be better if...? Such a question should be chosen to presuppose your frame. Example:* Wouldn’t it be better if we had a president who went to war with a plan to secure the peace?

Stay away from set-ups. Fox News shows and other rabidly conservative shows try to put you in an impossible situation, where a conservative host sets the frame and insists on it, where you don’t control the floor, can’t present your case, and are not accorded enough respect to be taken seriously. If the game is fixed, don’t play.

Tell a story. Find stories where your frame is built into the story. Build up a stock of effective stories.

Always start with values, preferably values all Americans share like security, prosperity, opportunity, freedom, and so on. Pick the values most relevant to the frame you want to shift to. Try to win the argument at the values level. Pick a frame where your position exemplifies a value everyone holds — like fairness. Example: Suppose someone argues against a form of universal health care. If people don’t have health care, he argues, it’s their own fault. They’re not working hard enough or not managing their money properly. We shouldn’t have to pay for their lack of initiative or their financial mismanagement. Frame shift: Most of the forty million people who can’t afford health care work full-time at essential jobs that cannot pay enough to get them health care. Yet these working people support the lifestyles of the top three-quarters of our population. Some forty million people have to do those hard jobs — or you don’t have your lifestyle. America promises a decent standard of living in return for hard work. These workers have earned their health care by doing essential jobs to support the economy. There is money in the economy to pay them. Tax credits are the easiest mechanism. Their health care would be covered by having the top 2 percent pay the same taxes they used to pay. It’s only fair that the wealthy pay for their own lifestyles, and that people who provide those lifestyles get paid fairly for it.

Be prepared. You should be able to recognize the basic frames that conservatives use, and you should prepare frames to shift to. The Rockridge Institute Web site will post examples from time to time. Example: Your opponent says, We should get rid of taxes. People know how to spend their money better than the government. Reframe: “The government has made very wise investments with taxpayer money. Our interstate highway system, for example. You couldn’t build a highway with your tax refund. The government built them. Or the Internet, paid for by taxpayer investment. You could not make your own Internet. Most of our scientific advances have been made through funding from the National Science Foundation and the National Institute of Health — great government investments of taxpayer money. No matter how wisely you spent your own money, you’d never get those scientific and medical breakthroughs. And how far would you get hiring your own army with your tax refund?

Use wedge issues, cases where your opponent will violate some belief he holds no matter what he says. Example: Suppose he brings up abortion. Raise the issue of military rape treatment. Women soldiers who are raped (by our own soldiers, in Iraq, or on military bases) and who subsequently get pregnant presently cannot end their pregnancies in a military hospital, because abortions are not permitted there. A Military Rape Treatment Act would allow our raped women soldiers to be treated in military hospitals to end their rapeinduced pregnancies. The wedge: If he agrees, he sanctions abortion, in government-supported facilities no less, where doctors would have to be trained and facilities provided for terminating pregnancies. If he disagrees, he dishonors our women soldiers who are putting their lives on the line for him. To the women it is like being raped twice — once by a criminal soldier and once by a self-righteous conservative.

An opponent may be disingenuous if his real goal isn’t what he says his goal is. Politely point out the real goal, then reframe. Example: Suppose he starts touting smaller government. Point out that conservatives don’t really want smaller government. They don’t want to eliminate the military, or the FBI, or the Treasury and Commerce Departments, or the nine-tenths of the courts that support corporate law. It is big government that they like. What they really want to do away with is social programs — programs that invest in people, to help people to help themselves. Such a position contradicts the values the country was founded on — the idea of a community where people pull together to help each other. From John Winthrop on, that is what our nation has stood for.

Your opponent may use language that means the opposite of what he says, called Orwellian language. Realize that he is weak on this issue. Use language that accurately describes what he’s talking about to frame the discussion your way. Example: Suppose he cites the “Healthy Forests Initiative” as a balanced approach to the environment. Point out that it should be called “No Tree Left Behind” because it permits and promotes clear-cutting, which is destructive to forests and other living things in the forest habitat. Use the name to point out that the public likes forests, doesn’t want them clear-cut, and that the use of the phony name shows weakness on the issue. Most people want to preserve the grandeur of America, not destroy it.

Remember once more that our goal is to unite our country behind our values, the best of traditional American values. Right-wing ideologues need to divide our country via a nasty cultural civil war. They need discord and shouting and name-calling and put-downs. We win with civil discourse and respectful cooperative conversation. Why? Because it is an instance of the nurturant model at the level of communication, and our job is to evoke and maintain the nurturant model.

Those are a lot of guidelines. But there are only four really important ones:

Show respect
Respond by reframing
Think and talk at the level of values
Say what you believe

[robre]

61. i caught mah momma looking at free republic, dad listens to rush

not sure if my mom has an account

when i saw the window i was like

"holy crap, free republic, i heard all the people on that site are insane"

[Piperay]

62. Ops posted in the wrong thread. nt

:spank:

[SweetLeftFoot]

63. Easy

Just a T-shirt printed up with that photo of Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam. Sit silently thru dinner and smile beatifically.

[Forkboy]

64. Thankfully my mother is even further left than I am

I wouldn't be able to talk to my mother if she was like that.I dont know how people can agree not to talk about certain things.It's part of who we are and who they are.It's like talking about recipes while the house is burning down :shrug:

[Kurovski]

65. What to do?

You love them, so do just that.

If anyone wants to talk politics while you're there, drop out. If pressured, just decline by saying " I love you more than politics, tell me something about you, not Bush." or whatever.

You can pick up where you left off on DU afterwards.

[quaoar]

66. You should be even more Republican than her

What sometimes works for me with my Republican family is to take their statements and throw back the extreme version of it. Drives them nuts.

Republican: "Well, it looks like our president is finally going to be the one to fix Social Security so I can keep the money I pay into it."

Extreme reply: "Yeah, those old people have been leeching off me for years. If they weren't smart enough to save up for their retirement, they deserve to eat dog food."

Republican: "Why do you Democrats keep complaining about casualties in Iraq? It used to be that people were glad to give their lives for their country."

Extreme reply: "Because we want to make sure that the ones dying for their country are the Iraqis. What we need to do is rape all their women and force them to convert to Christianity. Make an example out of Iraq and those ayatollahs in Iran will be praying to Jesus and begging for mercy."

[catgirl]

67. No Talking Politics Rule

Hi. My parents are also republicans and we too have a no politics talk policy. The Christmas visit was to depend on the election results. Before the elections, I broke the policy and bashed Bush. I asked my mother to name one good thing he has done. She couldn't answer the question AND admitted she doesn't like him. Shockingly, my mother's comment after nov. 2nd (she waited days to call me) was- " I feel so sorry for all the people who volunteered and then lost." She actually voted for Kerry. Never give up.

[quaoar]

68. Welcome to DU, Catgirl.

[newyawker99]

72. Hi catgirl!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Blue_Roses]

73. I know the feeling

I have family members who are hard-core Republicans, who think Bush can do no wrong, all based in the "name of God" and morality:eyes: I've been struggling with for days and it makes me so angry to see how naive' they are...

[PatriotGames]

74. No offense, but your mom sounds like a dipshit.

She is obviously not paying attention.

[Angry Girl]

75. Life is too short - CANCEL the trip and ENJOY!

[yardwork]

76. My father and I fought like this...and it never led to any resolution

When he became very sick and died, the last thing either of us cared about were politics. In our last minutes together we talked about things that we both cared about, notably the family.

For many years I thought my father hated me because he constantly belittled my life, my career choice, and my politics. At the end I learned that he loved me very much. I don't know why he acted the way he did, but I was ultimately glad that I didn't let it destroy our family.

That said, as a mother myself, I can't imagine treating my children the way that your mother is treating you (or the way my father treated me). I don't know what is wrong with some people, but it's their problem, not ours.

I agree with the posters who recommend that you go spend Christmas with your family, insist on and help enforce a "no political discussions" rule, and ignore anything ignorant or annoying that your mother or other relatives say.

Oh, and do keep repeating that serenity prayer. It really helps!

[mattclearing]

77. Hopefully

By Christmas we'll be in full Constitutional crisis mode and you can be ahead of the curve.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

82. And while we're at it.

Let's just be fucking doormats for the rest of our lives.
:eyes:
Letting someone walk all over you and blather on about how fucking "great" Bush** is without a response is pretty weak, too. I for one will not ALLOW any more idiotic opinions of Bush** and his "magnificence" go unchallenged. Don't care if it's my friends or my brother-in-law. NOBODY gets a free pass anymore. This isn't just politics. This is about the future of this entire goddamn country.

[joethesmoker]

83. yeah, let's be as radical as we can

Yeah, I'm sorry I'm not so fucking radical that I'm not advocating that poster slamming her mom and damaging relations with her. Yeah, politics is very important, but you gotta learn that it isn't all there is to life, and you gotta sometimes just shut your goddamn mouth and get along with people of other political affilitation. You wanna know why folks in the red states have that tendancy to despise liberals? Read your own fucking words and you'll see. Most posts on here are full of arrogance and ignorant emotion-filled rhetoric. From the way it sounds, I won't be surprised if a lot of you have ruined family relations over something as retarded as political arguments.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

85. Nice try, but...

No, I don't sometimes have to shut my "goddamn mouth and get along with people of ther political affiliation" if I don't want to. Who the HELL are you to try to tell me what to do? I don't have to shut my fucking mouth. Ever. You think the right-wing got where they are today by being nicey-poo with everyone? BULLSHIT. They've been bullies since the eighties, have deliberately driven the wedge between people over issues, and totally dominated the debate by yelling as loud as they can. They advocate killing liberals on the other message boards, and nobody tells them to "shut up". They advocate kiling democrats on bumper stickers and nobody tells them to "shut up".
I will not fucking shut up anymore. You want to see arrogance and ignorant emotion-filled rhetoric, then turn on Fox News and you'll see a whole hell of a lot of it. So don't dictate to ME that I'VE got to play nice when skanks like Coulter say the only way to talk to liberals is with a baseball bat.

The only post filled with arrogance here is yours.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joethesmoker]

84. Also..

Also, having a political discussion in which somebody else disagrees with you and expresses that is not the same as being used as a doormat.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

86. The original poster's mother called her "crazy".

And you think she should just shrug and let it slide?
Right.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. Enjoy your extremely short stay (nt)

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. Thanks for the LAUGH OF THE DAY!

I actually snapped a PrintScreen of your little outburst! I'm saving it for posterity!

Edit: http://img49.exs.cx/img49/6632/fkass7wv.pn (type a "g" at the end of the link)

[joethesmoker]

Glad I could help!!!

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. You do realize your half-life here has just become shorter than

Roentgenium's, don't you?

[grumpy44]

88. If Carville and Matalin can do it, so can you.

But you don't have to sleep with your mother.

And I don't think either one is shaking after they talk politics.

Don't take it so personally. Your mom isn't running the country.

Save your anger for the people that deserve it.

[SemperEadem]

89. don't go

because you will be baited into defending your views.

If you do go, study all talking points, make sure your views are substantiated by verifiable sources--don't blindly go into a situation without 'body armour' for your views--you will be asking for the beatdown you're going to receive.

Holidays bring out the worst in people, especially families with their inherent power struggles and dysfunctional dynamics. If you go in knowing that your mother broke the 'no politics discussion' rule and it wasn't the holidays yet, then you know that it will be a free for all once you get there... she didn't respect you enough to refrain from her divisive rhetoric--what do you think will be waiting for you if you walk into it?

Prepare yourself thoroughly, or don't go. Those are your options.

[joethesmoker]

95. What?? Defending your views????

Oh my God!!!! She may actually have to defend her views?! Why, Republicans have to defend their views, while we shouldn't be required to!! Oh shit! Seriously, not going because of political disagreements is a dumbass idea. Let's assume her family is not wringing their hands over the thought of making her look silly when she comes home for Christmas family time, thus spending Christmas time together in misery. If they are, too bad. There's ways to get around that. They're probably not. Not all Republicans are evil, you know. If she really can't defend her views, maybe she should change them. If she can, but gets that upset over political conversations because she's easily offended, then just follow the advice someone else gave and fucking avoid the subject and make it clear that politics is a taboo subject. Man, does everything in your lives have to revolve around politics and hand wringing over Republicans? Cause that's a sad life if that's the case.

[SemperEadem]

107. the issue is one of respect

This isn't an issue of hand-wringing and being afraid to confront rethugs. This is an issue of sticking to your word that you will not engage in behaviors which violate the boundaries of respect already agreed upon.

[catgirl]

93. Hi Tridim

It's me again. Seriously, don't let Bush ruin your holidays by boycotting your family. Believe me, I know how it feels. I've been dealing with the same thing almost my whole life. It stopped when I started saying "No Politics, I Mean It!" If they persist "I'm Serious!". Just don't let them. If they persist still, leave the room without a word. It will stop. And someday you may be surprised and something (not you) will make them see they were wrong. That day may be soon when they learn that their hero is a liar, a cheat, a criminal and a downright dirtbag. Happy holidays!

[amazona]

96. nothing wrong w/ canceling the trip

My mom and I were on the outs for years, not over politics, but over a personal issue. Do something over the holidays with someone who appreciates you. The longer you're gone and the further away you are, the more your parents appreciate you anyway in my experience.

[okieinpain]

98. you have to taste the agony of defeat, to enjoy the glory of victory

go hang out with the peeps, they can't be all, after all they raised you.

[StopThief]

106. Anybody that tells you to cut ties with or. . . .

write off any family member is doomed to live a lonely and bitter life. Family is something that is always there for us, and politics should NEVER get in the way of that. If someone you disagree with brings up politics at a family gathering, tell them you will just have to agree to disagree and walk away. Any other advice is crap!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. Thank God My Family Are Democrats (nt)

[struggle4progress]

109. Have you ever read "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"?

Do you remember the game R & G play where they converse only by asking questions?

Why not treat your interactions with your mother as opportunities to plumb the depths of her thought?

Do you think you could learn to carry on political discussions by asking questions rather than making statements?

Could you ask Mother to explain how a falling dollar signals a strong economy? Do you think she would like to explain why the Republicans are producing record deficits?

Can you ask, "How do our moral values justify beating people to death with flashlights in Abu Ghraib?" and "Didn't the Red Cross say that 90% of the detainees there were innocent?"

Can you bite your tongue whenever you want to make a direct statement?

Are you aware how ill-informed and illogical many people are? Do you have any idea how quickly people become aware of their own ignorance and poor reasoning when they are required to answer a series of related questions?

Have you read Socrates? Do you remember how people often flew into rages when Socrates asked too many questions? Do you ever wonder why our President doesn't answer many questions?

Did this help?

[Zomby Woof]

110. unfortunately, it's true

Thinking an Ohio recount means crap in this rigged system does mean anyone who puts their hope in it crazy or tinfoily.

Folks, Bush will be around for another 4 years and a month... and no amount of wishing or dreaming about Ohio is going to change SHIT.

Deal.

[GalleryGod]

111. Save Your Soul and Stomach: CANCEL !!!!!!!!!

:argh: 'Bye Mom