So exactly what did the Founding Fathers say about religion?

[Darby]

FROM http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html


The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity:


Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.


Jefferson again:

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

More Jefferson:

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible?

Dunghill.

John Adams:

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?
Also Adams:
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Here's Thomas Paine:

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.



Finally let's hear from James Madison:
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.



Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.



These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.


Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it.

And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

[Dr Fate]

1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

That is what they said.

[Seldona]

2. How can *Bush get away

with his faith based initiatives?

While I agree that some christian organizations do good things, to do so with federal money seems to me to be against what the founding fathers had in mind.

And why is it okay to give money to help the poor to religous organizations, but not for the government to have secular programs that do the same in a fundies mind?

It is unconstitutional and not logical to me.

Spelling edit, as usual.

[LiberalFighter]

39. He should wait until he dies on the cross and is resurrected

[Darby]

3. Treat of Tripoli - proclaims America's government is secular

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html




Treaty of Tripoli

Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:


"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."


--------


Some people today assert that the United States government came from Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet just the opposite proves the case.

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

...





JOHN ADAMS


In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" <1787-1788>, John Adams wrote:


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

[The Judged]

6. "The Rise of Dominionism"

Hello everyone. This is my first post as a member of the Democratic Underground forum, and it feels great to be here!

Most recently, I contributed to another forum (http://commongroundcommonsense.org/) until I realized that, for me, that forum did not live up to its billing as an "Internet Town Meeting for Progressives, Moderates, and Independents."

Specifically, I came to realize that the Lexicon of the Republican Party has taken traditional political labels such as, but not limited to, those above, and inversed the meanings of some like Conservative and Radical, while substantially tilting rightward others such as Moderate and Libertarian, and shoving further left the historical notion of a Moderate to mean Left Wing and Liberal to mean Left Wing Extremist.

In other words, I was participating in a forum of Republican deception by accepting the false premise that a moderate is one who is what was 25 years ago a conservative right wing Republican. The moderators just wouldn't grasp the notion of the lexicon of the Republican Party, and just insisted that it was OK for newly recreated moderates to disparage traditional moderates by use of the Republican lexicon labels as well as some nasty labels that were very divisive.

Finally, I realized that the moderators and administrators at the other forum are under the same spell that many Americans are afflicted with: blindness to their own brainwashing, a severe lack of American political and historical perspective, and a fierce determination to define everything political in the terms of the current Orwellian Republican Lexicon.

Getting back onto the point of this thread, I just wanted to add the following link, which I remember seeing posted in this forum before, because it was very enlightening for me, and it relates directly to this thread, though the thread may not be original on this forum.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm (click on "The Rise of Dominionism" recorded October 11, 2004, 44 minutes, and be advised that this video reduces neocons to puppets, while raising awareness of the religious right's newfound power in our beloved country, IMO)

thanks again.

[Old and In the Way]

7. Great 1st post....welcome aboard!

[Trajan]

11. The Judged ....

Welcome to DU ....

Don't be fooled; we have our own internecine battles between 'idealist' and 'pragmatist' as well, but we certainly agree that the terms 'radical' and 'conservative' have been unhinged and twisted beyond recognition ....

You cannot be more radical than Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bush .....

Conservative my arse ....

Anyways .. a very cogent first post: Welcome to DU ...

[newyawker99]

15. Hi The Judged

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[robbedvoter]

17. Welcome, and thank you!

True, the "center" is moving so fast, now that Arlen Specter is a commie pinco, I don't know what I am (used to think of myself as moderate liberal - dropped the "moderate" fast as I read others' opinions and now.... Point is, you'll find a wide variety here too, but slightly to the left of what you desribed. Enjoy the fun.
:hi:

[The Judged]

18. Thank you all so much for the greetings.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Welcome. Theocracy Watch is a great site..

Americans United for Separation of Church & State does some good work on the issue as well.

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[janx]

42. There has been a great shift in American politics since

the radical religious right took over the Republican party. The Democrats are now going through some pretty intense adjustments as a result, and they are late in doing so.

I was an independent until a couple of years ago, and I still admire the Goldwater Republicans (those who are still alive).

Ron Paul, a libertarian/Republican from Texas, is a guy who is admired greatly by some around here.

Your post and your screen name could not be more appropriate and timely.

Welcome!

[eleonora]

4. they close their eyes on the truth

like they close their eyes on the real teaching of Jesus. There is no reasoning the unreasonable.

[mngreen]

5. Christianity

For now, to me, the role of religion in this election matters the most. If we don't do something different regarding Christianity, we will face the same defeat again in four years no matter who is the candidate. Believe me, the Bible is on our side. Study it, you will find our values are truly based on Christianity.

[JNelson6563]

12. I think not

Believe me, the Bible is on our side. Study it, you will find our values are truly based on Christianity.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. By "do something different", do you suggest selling out bedrock

principles, like committment to the separation of church and state?

No thanks, I'd rather lose elections.

MLK was a man whose actions were based on Christian values, and he had no problem integrating his beliefs not only into his words but into what he did with them. I don't have any problem with people whose Christian values; values like tolerance, and love, and compassion; lead them to act on those values in the public sphere. I don't even have a problem with those folks saying "I'm doing this because I'm a Christian".

What I DO have a problem with is people who want to make their particular interpretation of Christianity the LAW of the land. Strangely enough, however, those folks have an extremely skewed view of what constitutes "Christianity"... Mostly, it seems to be concerned with who is screwing who, how, and when. What those voters want is a leader like Dubya, who will give lip service to Christian "Values" (and reassure them, in code, that he hates the queers as much as they do) and then 15 minutes later retire into the oval office to pump his fist in the air, go "Mmm. Feels Good", and laugh like Beavis and Butt-head as bombs start falling on Iraqi children.

"Reaching" the voters who genuinely believe that it is "Christian" to oppose stem cell research that could save lives, yet see no moral inconsistency in supporting a president whose policies increase the rolls of some 45 million already without health insurance, would require a complete retooling (meaning abandonment) of whatever genuine values the Democratic Party still holds dear.

No thanks.

[jdots]

8. They not only interpret things for thier own goals

they have changed the language and hypnotise people with the jargan..Some of the people in America have to be deprogramed.

[BernieBear]

9. Most of them were Freemasons

and believed in the mystery schools.....

[Disturbed]

10. The Extreme Right Wing

They are clever, just like the Nazis were. They wrap political and economic matters into religion and twist it to serve their goals of Facsism. The masses lap it up like their fave ice cream on a hot summer day.

[From the south]

13. Some other founding father religious quotes

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted."

Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Adams

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ"

George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

George Washington

The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see.

Benjamin Franklin


The truth is....the many of the founding fathers were men of deep faith. The constitutional provision for religious freedom prohibits the establishment of a state religion. That intent has been misconstrued to mean a seperation of faith from government, which in my opinion was never the intent.

[Darby]

14. In my opinion it WAS the intent - you're completely wrong

[magellan]

20. Name one country

...that proselytizes Christianity from the halls of goverment and is also stable, peaceful, respects human rights, and practices freedom, justice and equality for all, regardless of race, creed or religion.

You won't find one, friend. The problem in particular here is not the lack of moral conscience in the people, but in the corporations that truly run this country. Once you figure that out and help to do something about it, the sooner we'll stop this nosedive into the corruption of Empire.

[From the south]

26. I dont think anyone is calling for proselytizing from the halls of goverme

[Hell Hath No Fury]

27. Oh no?

The RW "christian" nutjobs are calling for just that.

You need to keep up.

[From the south]

28. nobody in govt

there are people at all ends of the spectrum calling for all sorts of things..... but they dont matter.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Right, there are no right wing christian nutjobs in Gov't.

Someone hasn't been reading the newspapers. The right wing christian nutjobs ARE the gov't.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Bullshit.

What do you call teaching "Creationism" in Public School Science Class?

[magellan]

44. That's exactly what BushCo have been doing for years (nim)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. The thruth is....

some of our founding fathers were men of faith whose faith happened to be Christianity of some form. And some of our founding fathers were men of deep faith who were deists and who abhorred Christianity.

Some of them wanted the US to outright be a Christian nation, and others wanted nothing to do with that, having seen what happens when state and religion mix.

Luckily for us, the voices of sanity won and we have a nation with no sanctioned brand of religion.

You can have deep faith and believe in God and not be a Christian.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Jefferson was a Deist.

Here's more Jefferson Quotes:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

And if you don't believe the intent was to have a "separation of faith from government", yet you don't think anyone is advocating "proseltyzing" from the same, what, exactly is it you think should be accomplished with regards to a co-mingling of faith and politics that isn't in place now? I'm truly curious.

[LynnTheDem]

34. You sure do love to defend rightwingnuts and bush

Strange.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Thanks for this!

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[donhakman]

19. GW

[mandyky]

22. I like Franklin's religion comments best

I saw his bio on the History channel the other night - it was great.

[Radical Activist]

23. Did any of the first five Presidents go to church

on a regular basis? I'm not aware that they did.

[mandyky]

24. John Adams

major puritanical prude he was LOL

[Radical Activist]

25. One-termer too

Even back then people didn't like the self-righteous New Englanders. hehe

[quaker bill]

35. Your read of the Bible passage is wrong

I will not argue with the rest.

Christ was asked a very specific question about paying taxes by an individual. It was a test to see if they could catch him advocating people viotlate the law.

Christ said "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's (the money with Caesar's actual image on it) and give unto the lord that which is the Lord's (faith). This passage has no relevance to the Church - State issue. It could be paraphrased as: Obey the Laws, but place your faith in God.

I agree with your take on the original Baptist stand on church - state issues. Quakers held the same convictions, and interestingly the Constitutional Convention was held in Philadephia, which was the center of the Quaker religion in the US at the time.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. All the more reason why I can't understand

people who think a vigorous defense of the separation of church and state is inherently anti-religion.

Many of the people who originally insisted that there not be a Church of the USA did so because of their religion; specifically, they had experience with persecution related to it.

Me, I'm an atheist... But I would still stand up for the Separation of Church and State no matter what my beliefs were, because civic government is not the place for religion. Doesn't mean that religion has NO place, just not in collective, civic government.

[janx]

41. Exactly so! See my post #38. n/t

[janx]

40. Still though, Christ made the distinction.

That in itself is laudable.

[w4rma]

37. Thomas Jefferson actually wrote a Bible: The Jefferson Bible

THE Jefferson Bible

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth
Extracted Textually from the Gospels

Compiled by Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.

. . . Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

[janx]

38. Remember that the Pilgrims, as wildly religious as they were

(probably for good reason), were Separatists. They made their journey primarily because they did not want their religion controlled by the state.

The right wingers love to use the Pilgrims as an example of how Christianity founded this country. They hope it will justify their lust for the merging of state and religion. The irony and hypocrisy of it is staggering.

Ultimately, separation of church and state serves not so much to preserve our government from religion, but to protect our various faiths from government.

The recent UCC ad is a very telling and frightening example; it's doubly "fitting" since the history of that denomination involves the Congregationalists--the Pilgrims.

[chaska]

43. Here's a couple more:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. Thomas Jefferson

My opinion is that there never would have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built...for the purpose of pense and power, revolts those who think for themselves. Thomas Jefferson