David Jones admits "527" which "took Dean down" funded by Kerry & Gep.

[KoKo]

Gephardt. He used the phrase "took down" over and over... David Jones headed the "527" Pac "Americans for Jobs, Healthare and Progressive Values." This verifies what Dean supporters thought all along. Dean was polling high in every state but their polling showed that he "wasn't electable, and they and their supporters thought he wasn't progressive enough...so they "took him down." They were responsible for the Osama Ad's against Dean and the other ads which were so negative about Gun Control, Healthcare.

It's a classic example of "manipulation" by our own against us. We'll never know how far Dean could have gone if he had been allowed to go through the primaries, because this group "took him down." What's really disgusting is that we Democrats are now being told by the Party Ops that we need to move to the Right because of values, but the David Jones Pac "took out Dean" because (according to Jones) he was a "Moderate and not Progressive enough" for Kerry & Gephardt. Hypocracy!

Saw this on C-Span 2 this a.m. in a discussion: "Advocacy Groups and the 2004 Elections." If they repeat it, it's a MUST SEE for anyone here to show how the "political operatives" manipulated "US" Democrats in the Primary Season. Representatives from "Move On" and the "Media Fund" were there.

[blm]

1. Kerry did NOT fund that group. Some who supported him also donated to the

group, but it was the group that made that ad. In fact, Kerry's campaign was the ONLY camp who spoke out against that ad.

I noticed the absence of concern when Dean's campaign was dogging Kerry with Flip Flops or signs that claimed Kerry = Bush. Dean's camp played hardball when they attacked. They can't demand softball in return.

[Ninga]

3. Well, of course he spoke out against those ads, just like

Bush did with the SBV ads. Kerry's hands are not squeeky clean.

[KoKo]

5. BLM, David Jones said they were funded by Kerry and Gephardt. Get

the transcript, or tape it when it repeats. I tried to find a repeat on the C-Span Website...but nothings up yet. When I find something I will post it. Annenberg Fund sponsored it, and they are going to have a film which will be shown at Colleges and put out a book.

David Jones might be lying but he said it to the panel and I heard it just now :shrug:
Send him an e-mail or something...

[lojasmo]

7. Get real...

:shrug:

Though you may not like the news, it doesn't mean it's not true, BLM.

Bush spoke out against the CIA "failure" in garnering Iraq intel.....doesn't mean he wasn't culpable for the Iraq war.

[chocolateeater]

57. So you are comparing hardball tactics

done in the open with underhanded tactics done in the dark? This was a below-the belt hitpiece that was seen fit to use on another Democrat, but not the Bushies.

[rfkrfk]

133. Let's play 'CLUE' , I think it was

Who took down Dean,
I think it was...
Mrs. Heinz, in the parlor, with the checkbook.

[Capn Sunshine]

168. LOL

[PassingFair]

215. LOL times 2

From what I heard, there are a few new fire engines in Iowa.

[Ninga]

2. My Heart broke when I learned very early after the Iowa primary about

the 527 funded by Dems. It was a whole group of them, including a former US Ohio Congressman, Ed Feigan.

My feeling is, that if Howard could not find a way to over come the slimy ad campaign against him, how could he succeed in the national election?

All Howard needed was a bit more savvy, and staff who were mature enough to see beyond the INTERNET success his campaign had amassed.

Let us not forget as well, the role that many in the media, including Al Franken, had in advising Kerry in December 03.

Success and/or Failure has many mothers.

[Larkspur]

151. No Democratic candidate would have withstood a gang assault

like Dean took. The average candidate would have quit the Democratic Party althogether after that brutal assault, but Dean, with Al Gore's and Dean supporters' help, came back to fight another day and now Dean is being considered DNC Chair.

Where's Gephardt? He couldn't deliver Missouri to Kerry. Gephardt is a miserable failure of a leader.

[Straight Shooter]

187. Hear, hear!

And he didn't take his toys and go home.

Dean is a helluva man.

[Angelique]

223. I miss Dean, and think he would have put up a better fight..

..that would have attracted more people to our side.. Kerry was a good man, just not good enough IMHO

[AngryAmish]

4. Why was this done?

What did they have against Dean?

[KoKo]

He wasn't "Progressive" enough and their "527" polling showed he

"wasn't electable." I don't know what they asked in their polling to get an answer that he wasn't electable. Jones didn't address that. He also talked about how they managed to get CNN to promote their attack ads by outfoxing Joe Trippi...

It's all perfectly legal what they did...but disheartening.

[eridani]

120. Not "progressive" enough?

Kucinich and Sharpton might have a right to say that, but Gephardt and Kerry certainly don't, despite the fact that Kerry is more left on the environment and Gephardt on labor issues. Issue-wise, those two just aren' that much different from Dean.

[Rockerdem]

130. It doesnt surprise me that CNN became a useful tool

If not a full-fledged partner in crime. Why cant they just be honest reporters, instead of big-money shills and prostitutes for one side or the other?

[MercutioATC]

6. Ummm...they wanted to win, perhaps??

The bast way to do that is to take out the front-runner.

[XemaSab]

21. Tragic

First of all, they pulled the "unelectable" crap right out of their collective rear ends.

Secondly, if Kerry could go negative against Howard Dean in the primary, where was this willingness to go on the attack in the GENERAL ELECTION against Bush?

Oh wait, Kerry HAD to be the nominee so the FIX could be IN.

[shance]

62. Whats more tragic is Kerry then gave the election to Bush.

If that does not tell you what kind of leaders (or lack thereof) we have.

It seems many of them are more aligned with Republican special interests than they are Democratic. Certainly many of them seem to be products of corporate interests Look at the signatures of this Intelligence bill yesterday. Its not leadership, its

[XemaSab]

63. Project vote smart

Has info on politicians. It's nonpartisan and unbiased.

http://www.vote-smart.org

If you scroll to the bottom of the Kerry page, Kerry voted with ** 72% of the time in 2002.

:WTF:

How can we expect the man to criticize the same damn policies he voted for in the first place?

The same year, Edwards voted with ** 76% of the time, and Lieberman 77% of the time.

Gephardt voted with ** 33% of the time, and Kucinich 26% of the time.

Honestly, folks. If we wanted to support **, we'd vote for the chimp.

[ever_green]

207. uh huh. messed up isn't it?

[ClintonTyree]

8. He didn't fit the DNC/DLC "mold"...........................

he was an uncontrolable maverick (in their eyes) that wasn't in their stable of acceptable candidates. He would never have conformed to the party's iron fisted ideology, so................

[madfloridian]

10. Jones said anti-war played a role, and that he was a moderate.

So they had to tell the people he was really a moderate instead of a liberal, which he never said he was.

It is sickening.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Dean was very clear about his opposition to the DLC corporatists

Dean and his bat raised funds faster than any 5,000/plate rubber chicken banquet and it scared the shit out of those neocon appeasing traitors who have hijacked this party.

[madfloridian]

9. Here is the link to the C-Span video. 2:58 into it, Jones speaks.

It is absolutely sickening, he shows no caring that this was our country's election he was affecting.....it has become such a game that it was just fun to him. I posted this link last night, but it dropped.
http://www.cspan.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=annenberg&image1.x=12&image1.y=6

[KoKo]

12. Thanks so much...where did you find the link? I looked all over the site

but I was on Today's Events...so maybe it was on another page....

[madfloridian]

15. I did a search on Annenberg.

It was hard to find.

[w13rd0]

11. It's sad that they...

...saw fit to run an ad like that against Dean, but I guess they couldn't see clear to compare Bush to Ossama. That would be going too far I guess.

[Walt Starr]

14. Now I'm getting pissed

:grr:

Fuckers.

[calimary]

23. No shit, Walt. Me too.

I wish Kerry had fought as hard against bush as he evidently did against Dean.

Hell, I wish Howard Dean were president-elect this morning. For that matter, I wish Kerry would be. I wish Kerry would have gotten off his butt and challenged the election before FIVE WEEKS had gone by.

Unless, deep down, they really, truly WANTED to lose this one...

[LeftCoast]

16. The thing that most angers me

is that Kerry can play down and dirty, hard-ball politics with a fellow Dem, but then plays Uber-wimp during the general election with Bush. WTF is the deal?!?

[IndianaGreen]

226. Perhaps is the Skull & Bones brotherhood

that prevented Kerry from kicking Bush in the balls.

[Me.]

17. Bastards!

especially as Kerry ran such a stellar campaign!

[valis]

18. I agree: BASTARDS!

[JaneQPublic]

20. So the big question is...

...if Kerry had no qualms against running a dirty, underhanded campaign against a fellow Democrat in the primary elections, why did he run such a wimpy, toothless campaign against the GOP in the general election?

Hell, even when the GOP was eviscerating the integrity of his Vietnam service, Kerry sat on his hands and did nothing.

After Kerry won the primaries, I was almost ready to forgive his slarmy attacks on Dean in Iowa, concluding we needed that kind of a fighter to go up against Karl Rove et al. But that's not the kind of campaign Kerry gave us. I'm just disgusted with him.

[Me.]

30. Exactly !

and my heart sank when in less than 24 hours a smiling Kerry conceded, he didn't stick with us until every last vote was counted.

[JaneQPublic]

33. Me, too. Kerry took less time to concede the vote than...

...some citizens spent standing in line waiting to vote.

[Me.]

41. I Hadn't Thought Of It In That Way

But that is a heartbreakingly cogent observation

[ever_green]

208. me either. good point. Sad though. Very sad.

[leftchick]

136. Excellent point Jane....

and we got a 'raw deal' for our troubles... :puke:

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

19. Jones mentioned Medicare.......Dean's book explains stance.

He said they were concerned about Dean and Medicare.....today I hear that our Democrats are selling us down the privatization river.

Oh, yeah, had to get that Dean guy out of the way, because he thought of all options.

Now they are selling us out I am hearing. Enough Dems are crossing over to give Bush what he wants.

If you can listen to that segment and not be irate, furious, outraged...then something is wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. well of course, because so many democrats take big money from insurance

companies.

[janx]

149. Lieberman being a prime example. n/t

[seaglass]

22. Here are the donors to this 527 according to open secrets.

Donors:

Transport Workers Union ($20K), Machinists Union ($50K), International Longshoreman's Assn., and Ironworkers Union, among others
Former Sen Robert G. Torricelli (D-NJ), $50K
Bernard Schwartz (chair & CEO, Loral Space & Communications), $15K
S. Daniel Abraham (founder, Slim Fast Foods), $100K

http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527events.asp?orgid=42

Abraham also donated to Dean, as did another donor to this 527 - do you think they knew what the content of this ad was?

The Osama ad was over the top and it was pulled, as blm stated Kerry denounced the ad.

It is only the most partisan Dean supporters who will believe that Kerry knew the content of this ad - there is no evidence to prove it, it's just a matter of thinking the worst of Kerry - which is not so unusual in some Dean circles.

I don't have a problem in general with primary opponents running ads against each other.

The Moveon spokesperson at this same event was very clear that though they cannot technically advocate for a candidate, that is their goal. I cannot for the life of me see what is so surprising about this.

Also from open secrets: (same page)

The ads were pulled quickly because they angered many union financial contributors and members of the Democratic Party

[madfloridian]

24. Maybe you did not watch the video. No, Hope, you are dead wrong.

It is not just the most "partisan" of Dean supporters who are upset.

You keep your blinders on, my dear. Just watch the video. If you think it is ok, then that is your right.

If this is what our country is about now, then there is no hope.

[blm]

25. The greater point of the post was that Dean donors even gave to that 527.

.

[madfloridian]

26. If you defend what Jones said, then I am unbelieving.

Shame on you. We have all known the donors, that has nothing to do with it.

It was a shameful thing to do.

[KoKo]

31. David Jones specifically said Kerry and Gephardt. He didn't list the

others... Why would Jones have wanted to just say Kerry and Gephardt at this panel? Maybe we ought to look more closely into who Jones' alliances are really with. If what he says isn't true he needs to be called out about it.

Frankly I thought he was an arrogant POS...but I didn't want to say that in my original post. He could be working for anyone...he's a "hired political gun." But, he said what he said. Don't blame me for what he said...watch the video.

[seaglass]

42. There were groups that supported Gephardt that funded

this 527, Torricelli did support Kerry and he gave them a chunk.

If you are advocating for a specific candidate it just makes sense that you want his/her opponent to lose.

I wouldn't object to supporters of Gephardt or Kerry running an ad that states that Dean doesn't have foreign policy experience - he doesn't. It was the Osama link that was wrong.

In any case, I don't believe that there is any evidence that these ads were screened and approved by the people who donated to the group.

[JNelson6563]

139. Did you watch the clip?

It would seem not. How's the weather on DeNial River these days?

[seaglass]

141. Thanks for encouraging me to watch it. I didn't see anywhere

that Jones said Kerry and Gephardt knew about the Osama ad, is he on twice? Maybe you could tell me exactly how far into the clip he said this because I don't have the time right now to watch it twice.

It was a good clip. I didn't realize that in 11/19-23 polling of Iowa caucus goers that Kerry had a 75% positive rating while Dean had a 73% rating - so as Jones said, Kerry was set to move ahead. That was 3 weeks before any Osama ad.

Do you deny that Dean's past history of support for medicare cuts, NAFTA support and NRA endorsements had a negative impact on Iowa caucus-goers? Or do you deny that he supported the cuts, was at the WH for the NAFTA signing ceremony and was endorsed by the NRA 8 times?

This was illuminating and a very good overview of what happened to Howard Dean.

[janx]

199. Jones was on twice, yes.

You should have watched the whole thing.

[JNelson6563]

212. No surprise here

Dean haterz often don't see what they don't want to see. Nice tactic citing your reasons for hating Dean instead of admitting how dirty Kerry & Co's hands are.

Typical. *yawn*

Julie

[janx]

213. The second time he appears in the video is almost

more revealing than the first.

[seaglass]

37. And you were a teacher? Go back and read what I wrote.

Find where I said that only the most partisan of Dean supporters are upset.

[madfloridian]

39. You are insulting me now.

That's ok, I don't mind. I care more about what the hell has happened to my country than I care about insults.

[seaglass]

43. MF - don't call me my dear and tell me I have blinders on

and expect nothing in return. Especially when you mischaracterize what I wrote. The victim thing doesn't work with me at all.

[madfloridian]

44. Ah, the victim thingy again.

I gotcha.

[seaglass]

45. I really hope so. I notice how you didn't address the point

that you mischaracterized what I said though.

[lastliberalintexas]

188. How about here?

"It is only the most partisan Dean supporters who will believe that Kerry knew the content of this ad - there is no evidence to prove it, it's just a matter of thinking the worst of Kerry - which is not so unusual in some Dean circles."


MF simply boiled your words down and made the point more succinctly.

[seaglass]

210. No, she changed the meaning of my words, I specifically said

"who will believe that Kerry knew the content of this ad," I didn't say "who are upset by Kerry's donors involvement in this 527" or "who are upset by Dem vs. Dem advocacy ads".

If I did then she would have correctly restated what I said. She didn't.

[calimary]

27. Maybe the ads were pulled quickly, but they made their point

while they were out there in the public domain. They drew blood. Which they were designed to do. AND Kerry denounced them. Just like bush denounced the swifties ads.

I was already disappointed in John "I'll fight for every vote" Kerry before I heard this. I'd still like to know why his "I'll fight for every vote" meant he conceded almost immediately and took five fucking weeks to weigh in with a challenge to the vote. Yep, that's "fighting for every vote" alright.

Another one for the "yeah, sure" file.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. well then we have a right to reform the party and put these asshole out

OF OFFICE.

Sorry, but I am not buying your argument. The party decided why they wanted our nominee to be and they manipulated all the sheep to get what they wanted.

[Capn Sunshine]

169. Only the most naive of supporters

could not imagine John Kerry saying : "I don't care how you do it , take him down"

Plausible deniability is just another parlor game.
It happened. Period. Blame falls where it may , the net result is the will of the people was coldly manipulated to support some darker interests that felt threatened enough to concoct the plan in the first place.

[seaglass]

181. Did you watch the clip, or only the part that you believe blamed

Dean's loss on everyone but Dean?

He had vulnerabilities and when they were displayed, voters turned away.

We've hit an impasse.

[janx]

198. Over-the-top

fear mongering, done as well or better than the Bush* administration itself does on a regular basis.

This was desperate.

[madfloridian]

28. Our goal was to "knock out Governor Dean".

Jones, the goal of the 527 was to "take Dean out."

He says it over and over.

[merh]

121. Jones can speak for himself, but not for Kerry or Gephardt.

His goal was to take out Dean and he did get K & G's support. That is the nature of politics, take out the opponent.

Cry babies - even if Dean had won the primaries, he would have lost, they have the election fraud down to an art. They use good old fashion methods, they use new tech methods, they intimidate.

Until we get a grip on how to ensure that the elections are legimate and fair, we wll never win another election, even if Jesus Christ is our candidate.

If it makes you feel better, write Kerry a letter and tell him how disappointed you are in him, how angry you are that he was so bound and determined to beat Dean. Tell him it isn't right for dems to attack their own, but in that same letter apologize to him for doing just what you have chastised him for doing, as you are attacking your own.

[janx]

122. It was Kerry, Gephardt, and Clark.

If you think that this is a fair model of democracy, then fine--unleash the hounds, and let's go to Mexico.

This matter happened to such an extent that it messed around with the primary electorate--Iowa, which is pretty much bait and switch anyway--and that's not democracy. That's chaos and crap.

There are some people who care about the principles of our democratic republic more than they do about political partisanship.

[merh]

125. Yeah, I can tell.

That is why this debate is on going. The concern about our democratic republic is such a vital part of this discussion. (sarcasm)

I repeat, none of the democratic candidates could have won the 2004 election. They have developed the election deception process to such an art form, we could have run the Big Dawg, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Thomas Jefferson, Jesus Christ, or any of your favorite leaders and we would still be where we are today!

Clark, Gephart and Kerry may share responsibility regarding Dean's inability to win the primaries, but it was Dean's inability to get beyond the scream and to adequately and effectively respond to the well timed and edited sound bite. Kerry did better with the SBV than Dean did with the scream that will haunt him for years.

If you are so concerned about the democratic republic as you insist, then you would stop bickering about the worst of the political partianship, the inside the party partisanship. You would focus on how to try to fix the election process rather than throwing the candidates to the wolves by debating this stupid issue. If we don't fix the process then our next candidate will be just another sacrificial lamb.

[janx]

126. Ok, Eeyore.

;-)

DFA member here, and proud of it...

[merh]

146. It is you that appears to resemble the Eeyore character,

whining and complaining.

:nopity:

[janx]

147. Not me!

I'm happy that the truth finally came out and find it hilarious that this thug is proud of his work! B-)

[merh]

148. What thug?

:shrug:

[janx]

154. Watch the video.

You'll see. ;-)

[merh]

155. You mean Jones?

Guess you have never been involved in an actual campaign - I suggest that you get involved in one (with primary elections) or you run, then you will know the brutal truths that are involved in campaigns.

As I said earlier, that is Jones representation of the facts, that does not make them the facts!

[janx]

192. It's a brutal truth, all right.

It's disgusting.

[merh]

195. Jones is a political operative trying to stay in the game, sure he

will blame others for his attacks because he wants to continue in his political efforts. What is disgusting is all of this silliness when the real issue is not which candidate in the primaries was the nastiest (they all were), it is how do we correct the flaws in our election process.

[janx]

196. Please understand where a lot of us are coming from here:

To many of us (*not* just those who were supporting Dean in the primaries), this IS a flaw in the election process.

When you have these "inside-the-beltway" types pooling resources to take one candidate out, it skews the process. This was magnified by the condensed primary schedule.

You made light of my reply before, but I'm only trying to explain that it's the principle of the thing.

This Jones moron actually boasted about taking down a grassroots, real democratic campaign that was 700,000 strong.

If we condone this or even ignore it, what we're left with will be a system in which the "insider" types can buy their candidates and spit on the will of the people.

I know politics is corrupt. I'm no baby. But this is over the top.

[merh]

201. And how many votes did Kerry win that we know of ?

just wondering cause that 700,000 strong don't seem that big and besides, Dean has his warts. Flip flopper was that rove or Dean? Comparing Kerry to a repuke, was that Dean? Dean professes to be a liberal and a progressive, but he is more moderate than Kerry and is close the centralist that was the big dawg. Remind me, during the primaries, how many nice things did Dean say about Kerry?

Correct me if I am wrong, Jones sat on stage and took the credit but he had no one else backing him up and no evidence that proved his claim regarding the conspiracy of KK&G? You may not be a baby but you are naive to the system and to what folks will say to make themselves seem so important when given the chance. 15 minutes of fame.

We condone this ever day, you have, just as you spread Jones words as if they are the truth without verifying them. He said it on Cspan so it must be true!

First we have to try to correct the election process, if our votes don't count, then what difference does it make next round of elections. Then we have to take the money out of politics by requiring - mandating that the media provide free and equal time to the candidates - we have to promote election reform, only $XXX amount can be spent by each candidate and no more 527's or other loopholes.

Recognize the issues and stop coddling the men that run for the offices. If they want coddling, then they should not run.

Principles aside, all politicians play dirty pool to win - they justify it by convincing themselvese that they will do a "great job" and will be better for the people than the other guy. Egoless folks do not run for office.

[janx]

202. You are apparently unable or unwilling to understand the point.

I am not naive to the system. The records bear this out.

That's OK. Maybe we'll meet on another thread sometime in which we can agree.

[madfloridian]

173. You don't sound very informed about Dean's org, DFA. Also...

you don't seem to be aware of Howard Dean's activities before the election to get congress to pass a bill for paper ballots.

You just don't seem that aware.

I am a proud member of DFA 2. Along with over 700,000 others.

[merh]

179. Oh, so Dean is the leader of the DFA?

Before the election was before the election and boy oh boy, what an impact they had. Guess I should bow to his before the election efforts and let him slide on what is happenging today! :crazy:

[madfloridian]

182. You do not know what DFA is, do you? It was formed after. Shame.

Shame for pretending you know to just insult.

Before you look foolish, you need to find more about it. It is called Democracy for America, and it supports grassroots candidates.

It was not in existence during the primaries.

[merh]

185. Nope, don't have to find out diddly squat - guess it ain't too

impressive if I haven't heard of it or rather, paid attention to it. :shrug: Glad you are so enthused about it, but from a read of your posts it appears that you think Dean hung the moon, so . . . :shrug:

[madfloridian]

186. No, only the stars. Your comments don't touch me at all.

I refuse to back down here anymore. You post one thing after the other to me about the issue. But you don't want to bother to find out about a growing group who present a hope for the party.

It tells me your agenda is not for the party or the country, but for the purpose of being belittling.

[merh]

189. How can he represent the hope for our party when he disregards

the efforts (grass root, heart felt efforts) of so many thousands that went to the Conyers hearings? How about the thousands of people that signed affidavits attesting to how they were prevented from voting?

If he wants to be the future, he better grab on to the present! The issues are now and he disrespected the efforts of thousands just because he wanted to share his "vision of the future of the party". Without dealing with the present, there is no future.

I do not take him serious because he did not take the conyers hearing serious - it is just that simple!

My agenda is for the democracy and for the nation, the party comes after that and an individual man even lower than that! Because I care about more than a party or "a leader" I can see beyond their promises and recognize their faults.

If you work for the man or the party, suggest he get a PR agent or maybe someone who is capable of making the best of a situation. Again, he could have easily embraced the conyers hearing, airing the CSPAN coverage live at the location of his speech, then after wards, he could have opened the floor for discussion and questions and then he could have lead the party in the direction of the future and told of his vision. He did not. It wasn't just me upset by it, but others in attendance, others that are struggling to save democracy.

You can love your candidate, but don't you dare accuse me of an agenda that is just about belittling anyone. I will put my efforts for justice, civil rights and individuals against your rhetoric any damn day of the week. Your personal attacks (first against Will Pitt) and now against me are just shining examples of your small mind and inability to grasp the true issues. He is not a god, nor is he a leader if he so easily overlooked the thousands that were trying to be heard yesterday. He should have created a forum where there could be heard by his audience, he should have applauded their efforts, supported their struggles, and then, and only then, would his "vision for the future" of the party had any credence.

[sangh0]

29. So why couldn't Dean fight back?

Dean had the money to run ads to counter those run by the 527. Dean also had plenty of FREE media attention when those ads were run.

If Dean can't survive an attack by a 527, what makes anyone believe he would have done any better against bush*?

[NYCGirl]

32. Why couldn't Max Cleland fight back when the Republicans ran essentially

the same ad against him?

For that matter, why couldn't Kerry fight back when the Swift Boaters were slugging at him? Talk about your "FREE media attention."

Isn't this all a moot point?

[sangh0]

51. You didn't answer the question

Why couldn't *DEAN* fight back?

[Cheswick2.0]

77. it doesn't matter........... one of them is gone and the other is going to

be reformed or he is gone too.

live with it.

[KoKo]

34. He was going up against two very experienced politicians. The point is

we will never know how Dean would have done. He might not have made it through the Primaries but at least folks in other states would have had the chance to vote for him. The way it was they "knocked him out" early on so that he never got the chance.

I think that's not the way we Democrats want to think about how we behave in having a free, fair and open election. This was dirty tricks just like the Repugs do...but on our own.

I'd say the same if it was a Dean "527" who knocked out Gephardt or Kerry early on. We needed all our candidates to keep out there so that more Americans had a chance to vote their opinion. This was decided by POLLING according to David Jones. Yet, early polling of Democrats who didn't even know all the canditates could NOT have been reliable. This was a concerted effort to remove Dean according to David Jones.

[sangh0]

53. We know how Dean *DID*

we will never know how Dean would have done

Not true. We know EXACTLY what Dean did. He lost.

[arcos]

111. same could be said about McCain...

and a lot of people agree that McCain would have won easily over Gore.

[janx]

112. Yep.

The tactics were the same.

[AntiCoup2K4]

95. Why couldn't Kerry fight back against the SwiftBoat Liars for Bush?

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

171. Why didn't he?

Tell us, I know you know the answer
Why didn't Kerry fight back against the Swift Boat 527?

[ohioan]

205. Because, had he gone after them, the press STILL would have run with

their story but would have insisted that the ONLY reason they did was because, by responding, Kerry made it a story.

Katie/Daryn/Paula: "Tim/Bill/Carlos - the Swift Boat issue really hurt John Kerry. Did he make a mistake in going after them the way he did?

Tim/Bill/Carlos: Definitely, Katie/Daryn/Paula. This was a one, maybe two day story at best. But when Kerry rose to their bait, he elevated their importance and turned this into a much bigger story. He should have just ridden it out."

[madfloridian]

35. Jones agreed with Dean that we were no safer with Saddam gone.

But he implies that it was too good not to use. I was just watching again, and trying not to gag. He agreed, but he said it was the wrong thing to say after such a "great victory for our country."

Dean spoke the truth, and they all used it for their own gain.

These folks live and die by the poll numbers. That is what our country has become.

If this is what we are about now, laughing up our sleeves as Jones is about bringing down the frontrunner......being arrogant about it...then we do not have a decent country anymore.

I don't care how many people hop on this thread to defend this 527. It was an outrage, and there should be no defense of it.

[madfloridian]

38. Jones agreed it was a "drive-by shooting."

They stopped the ads in time so they would not have to disclose.

He also said Dean was wrong to say Osama deserved a fair trail. Said it was another Dean mistake.

[Cha]

116. If "osama got a fair trail"..then

maybe more would have come out about bush's vacation in August and basically ignoring the "August memo" AND bush's lack of leadership after the attack..i.e. staying with the children in the schoolroom while New York was Burning..and then getting MORE photo ops 30 minutes after the "Pet Goat" reading~! bush got more people killed by his lack of ACTION!

[sendero]

36. Ok, I'm out of the Dem mainstream ...

... as usual. So what if Kerry did do it? Hell, I only wish he'd shown that kind of balls during the campaign and right after the election.

Politics is a rough and tumble sport. I don't like it, you don't like it, but if you want to win you have to get mean.

I doubt if Kerry/Gep did anything to Dean that the GOP wouldn't have done better were he nominated.

And I say that as a Dean campaign contributor.

[madfloridian]

40. Did you watch the video...starting at 2:58? If not, please do.

Then see if you are outraged.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. here is so what

they were wrong and we are worse off because of their actions. They took what Dean said which was true and they made it a gaff. They did it just to win and the gave us a worse world.

[deutsey]

46. I know people who were on the inside of the Dean campaign

who told me they thought Kerry and Gephardt engaged in a lot of dirty tricks against Dean in Iowa.

As a grassroots leader in the Dean campaign, that pisses me off, but, in a warped kind of abused-spouse way, I thought, well, if Kerry played that dirty against Dean, well, maybe he is the best one to go up against Bush after all.

However, he fucked up in two significant ways, in my opinion. 1) As others have pointed out, Kerry hardly fought back against Bush/Rove smears early enough and strongly enough. 2) He never tried to tap into the grassroots activism that was the real fire under the Dean campaign.

I'm not a big-time (or even a small-time) strategist, but it seems to me that if the Kerry campaign had fought back hard--I mean blasted every Bush/Rove smear the moment they spewed it--and if they had cultivated a strong, grassroots activist base, he might have had a real chance to overcome Bush.

What really pisses me off isn't that they "took Dean down," so much as they seemed to have taken him down because his campaign posed such a threat to the old Democratic establishment. If they had co-opted his outspokeness and fighting spirit, along with his grassroots activism, hearing something like what Jones is saying would be easier to take.

[KoKo]

76. Interesting points, there, deutsy.

What really pisses me off isn't that they "took Dean down," so much as they seemed to have taken him down because his campaign posed such a threat to the old Democratic establishment. If they had co-opted his outspokeness and fighting spirit, along with his grassroots activism, hearing something like what Jones is saying would be easier to take.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. you have a PM.... n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

80. exactly! n/t

[Larkspur]

158. You got that right!!!

What really pisses me off isn't that they "took Dean down," so much as they seemed to have taken him down because his campaign posed such a threat to the old Democratic establishment.

Kerry, Gephardt, Clark, Clinton, Lieberman all saw Dean and enthusiastic Dean supporters as a threat to their petty fiefdoms within the Dem Party structure. And you're right, if Kerry had the fighting spirit of Dean and the dedication to campaigning to win over the "hearts and minds" of all voters that Dean had, Kerry would have overcome the "elitism" and "aloofness" charges that Bush and many of us made against him. Kerry would have won our respect, instead of our scorn, and most likely would have defeated Bush. But no! Kerry chose to play "prevent defense" and fell into the inane GOP traps that help to reenforce Kerry's elitism and aloofness. So instead of getting ready to enter the White House, Kerry is pinning his faint hopes on a Ohio recount.

[Capn Sunshine]

172. Let's not overlook Dean campaigned tirelessly for Kerry

Despite what happened.

[Killarney]

47. You know who "took down" Dean?

the voters

I've never even heard of this ad before now and the majority of the people who voted in the primaries didn't see this ad.

[madfloridian]

48. 37 states had not had their primaries when HD dropped out.

So you think David Jones sounded fine on the video? Were you outraged by the Swiftboat 527 against Kerry?

So why no outrage at this one?

[Killarney]

54. I'm outraged at it, yes.

I think it sucks and any Dem that funded it sucks. I hate it when we eat our own and I was sickened during the primaries at the attacks. But, realistically, I don't think this 527 affected the primaries.

[madfloridian]

59. That is not the point.

.

[Cheswick2.0]

83. of course it effected the primaries.............

everyone knew that whoever won IA was going to take it all.

[Killarney]

101. And the reason Dean lost Iowa was this 527?

Nope.

[sangh0]

55. So why didn't Dean fight back?

Instead, he "dropped out"

[XemaSab]

65. He didn't "drop out"

He fought hard for the rest of the Iowa campaign, gave a great rallying speech after his defeat there, fought hard in New Hampshire, and "dropped out" when it became clear that he wasn't going to win the party nomination and that continuing to fight would only weaken Dem support for Kerry, the candidate.

[sangh0]

66. LOL!!!

"Dean didn't 'drop out'. Dean did several things and then dropped out"

You just can't make this stuff up, but if I told someone about this, they would accuse me of making it up.

[XemaSab]

103. "Dropping out"

You asked why Dean didn't fight back, and why he just dropped out.

I answered that he did fight back hard, and he withdrew from the race only after it became clear that he wasn't going to be the nominee. As soon as he withdrew from the race, he founded DFA, which he used in order to support Kerry as well as other Democratic candidates.

This is a far cry from running away like a coward at a few negative ads. Furthermore, he made it clear to his supporters that since we were all going to have to support the eventual nominee, he wasn't going to gripe about it and create dissent in the party. If he wanted to rock the boat, he could have, but he chose to be a gentleman instead.

[DFLforever]

49. Dream on, child

If you can't see or hear an op even when it's announced on TV!

[sangh0]

56. So "announced on TV" means it's true??

Then I guess bush* really is a "strong leader"

[DFLforever]

69. Well, yeah, when it's announced by the guy who organized it.!

:eyes:

[sangh0]

93. Uh-huh

SOmeone on TV takes credit for something, so IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

[Touchdown]

184. Wrong. The voters in TWO states decided.

Everyone after that was just band-waggoning. Iowa and NH need to be moved to last place.

By the time it came to Super Tuesday, there was no point in voting for anybody else, since Kerry had it locked up, and the media were slavering over his "comeback kid" personna. What happened in the Summer and Fall?

[IStriker]

50. I have a theory but no proof.

Somebody gave the signal to the press and probably to this 527 and maybe others (Soros, the Clintons, at least that is who I suspect) to drop Dean in his tracks. Sure, he made mistakes, but they amplified them and echoed them because they were not about to have somebody that was not under their control in charge of the party let alone as president.

[Tinoire]

206. Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner!

The neo-Liberal faction made up of Soros, Clinton, the DLC, and its lovebirds Kerry, Clark, Lieberman and Gephardt.

I believe we had already uncovered this during the Primaries. As a matter of fact, I specifically remember helping others expose this rotten shit and if I search hard enough, I'm certain I can dig up that research. I KNOW I still have research on the absolutely nasty stuff that went on during the caucuses to make sure the non-DLC candidates, especially Dean who seemed unstoppable, went nowhere.

If there's one thing I regret, it's having caved in and voted for that ham sandwich. NEVER AGAIN.

One has to really have NO SHAME to continue pretendiung that the neo-Liberals with whom most progressives are at war knew nothing about this. We uncovered their names behind these ads at the time for heaven's sake.

This is the same group that ran ads and bombarded Jewish organizations that if anyone other than a DLCer were elected (read Dean or Kucinich) that it was the end of the Jewish people (read Israel) and all sorts of ridiculous crap.

Dean = Osama.

Kucinich = mental midget.

Screw them. Screw the neo-liberals. Screw the Clinton's and their underhanded tactics of calling Carter up minutes before he was supposed to endorse Dean to tell them that Clark was the man because everyone thought Kerry and Lieberman were dead in the water. Screw them. I'm taking my party back.

Sheesh and I wasn't even a Dean supporter but WRONG IS WRONG and the SHIT STINKS.

[ibegurpard]

52. What I want to know is

why the Democratic Party people who were behind the primaries weren't as ruthless in the general election? That was the only comfort I took in the way they smeared Dean.

[tkmorris]

60. They were

The difference is that the MSM helped them destroy Dean. That same MSM did all it could to prevent them doing the same to Bush.

If a tree named Dean falls in a forest CNN will filter out all the chittering squirrels and amplify the sound it makes hitting the ground into an earsplitting roar.

If a tree named Bush falls in a forest CNN will be elsewhere, interviewing a shop clerk who once sold Kobe Bryant some crotchless panties.

See the difference?

[ibegurpard]

71. Oh, yeah...I'm well aware of that

And any Democrat who runs for President or major office should be aware of it as well and have plans to get around it.

[Rockerdem]

131. Good point

When's the last time that we saw a gaffe of Bush's run over and over and over and over on the cable news channels? On ALL of them? It's like, the minute that Dean rattled off his litany of states, the biggies at CNN were on the horn to Roger Ailes and conspired to give it blanket coverage. Why dont they do that to Bush? There's mountains of matl to work with.

[janx]

108. I took comfort in that for awhile too, figuring that if Kerry and

the rest were that ruthless, at least they'd be able to oust Chimpy. But think about it: They (erroneously) saw Dean as an outsider who was out to take their power away.

Even with Chimpy as president, they and their backers still retain a lot of power.

[madfloridian]

58. Center for Public Integrity: Political Mugging in America, March 2004

So much outrage against the Swiftboat vets 527. So little about this one against our own.

http://www.public-i.org/report.aspx?aid=194&sid=200

SNIP.."On November 7, 2003, a strange new group no one had ever heard of called "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" was quietly formed and soon thereafter began running a million dollar operation including political ads against then-frontrunner Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. The commercials ripped Dean over his positions or past record on gun rights, trade and Medicare growth. But the most inflammatory ad used the visual image of Osama bin Laden as a way to raise questions about Dean's foreign policy credibility. While the spots ran, Americans for Jobs—through its then-spokesman, Robert Gibbs, a former Kerry campaign employee—refused to disclose its donors."

SNIP.."The most stunning single fact to emerge—which should have been covered more heavily nationwide and was first broken by the Web site PoliticsNJ.com—was that disgraced former Senator Robert Torricelli, severely admonished for his unsavory campaign finance practices and forced to leave the Senate, had quietly donated $50,000 from his old Senate campaign account to Americans for Jobs. Torricelli reportedly also is a fundraiser for Senator Kerry's presidential campaign..."

SNIP.."Americans for Jobs was a street rumble after dark, in which donors or fundraisers for the major Democratic presidential candidates then overshadowed by Dean—Kerry, Rep. Richard Gephardt, and retired General Wesley Clark—all piled on. Labor unions that had publicly endorsed Gephardt accounted for a fifth of the money—the International Longshoremen's Association ($50,000), the Laborers' International Union of North America ($50,000), the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers ($100,000), the International Association of Ironworkers ($25,000) and the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers ($5,000). A former Dean donor, former Slim-Fast Foods businessman S. Daniel Abraham, gave $200,000. Past Kerry donor Bernard Schwartz, chairman of Loral Space and Communications—the tenth leading donor to the Democratic Party, giving $5.3 million over the years—chipped in $15,000. A top money chaser for Wesley Clark, Alan Patricof, also donated to this shadowy group...."
..

[madfloridian]

64. Lewis last Dec. even gave us fore knowledge of the GOP groups.

Some on here keep saying that those 3 ads did not hurt Dean or bring him down....they are ignoring the fact that our Democrats set up a 527 whose goal was to bring down the frontrunner. Then these same folks never ever attacked Bush that strongly...never. It is the fact that they formed the 527 and did it, not how much it affected. Of course it affected.

SNIP..."The strutting and braggadocio of ostensibly independent organizations with impeccably and indubitably dependent pedigrees give the impression of a wild, wild west town with no sheriff and no jail. For example, according to National Journal, we have the Republican 501(c)(4) organization, Progress for America, which expects to raise $40 million to $60 million for television ads, direct mail and other "outreach" and "issue truth squads" on behalf of President Bush during 2004. Unlike 527s, this group is not required by law to publicly disclose its donors. The counsel for the group is Ben Ginsberg, also the chief outside counsel to the Bush campaign. Ken Mehlman, manager of the Bush-Cheney '04 campaign, and Ed Gillespie, chairman of the Republican National Committee, were among 150 party poobahs at a Willard Hotel bash for the organization last October...."

We were forewarned about the groups like the Swift boat vets.

[ArkDem]

61. YYYyyyyyyyeeEEEEAAAAaaaaarrrrrrrrrrGGGGGGGGGGGG!!

[Radical Activist]

67. Well, Kerry was in fact more liberal than Dean

Its the job of opponents in an election to take eachother down. Dean tried to take down his opponents too. Elections are competitive that way.

I didn't see the ads but they do sound ugly. Another poster made the good point that if he couldn't get past those ads it's unlikely he would have defeated the negative campaigning that Bush would have done.

[madfloridian]

68. Excuse them, then.

Excuse the fact that Kerry/Edwards never attacked Bush with the same vitriol.

Also I would love to know who paid for the Confederate flag rallies in NH. It was Democrat, but Dean is not saying.

[Radical Activist]

85. Dean's vitriol

probably had more to do with him losing Iowa than those attack ads. That doesn't always win people over. At least that's what I heard a few people in Iowa say.

From what I heard about those ads they shouldn't have been run by any Democrat. I like candidates with a positive message, which is another reason why I preferred Kucinich and Edwards over Dean Kerry or Gephardt.

[XemaSab]

203. Edwards scares me

He comes off as all happy-friendly, but he's a trial attorney with one term in the senate. He's got to be a pit bull, but he doesn't show it, which is freaky-deaky.

[DFLforever]

70. Dean was in the rare position of fighting off the Dems and Repukes

at the same time. Not just this bogus 'progressive' group but the Club for Growth too, supposedly a Repuke front group but who knows now, they too could have been working for the Dems.

[high density]

79. Club For Growth is a pro-tax cut "conservative" group

They released a few anti-Kerry ads during the general election.

[DFLforever]

91. Still I wonder who they were working for in the Dem primaries?

Where they were fighting on the same side as the Democratic Dean destoyers although from a slightly different angle. Saying he was too elitist and liberal to win.

Sound like any democratic group we've heard from ad nauseum in this last election cycle. Like maybe the DLC?

[janx]

153. The Republicans didn't want Dean anywhere near the

nomination.

[merh]

145. All candidates during the primaries were fighting both dems

and repukes. Dean was not the only one.

[Cheswick2.0]

84. sorry wrong again

Kerry is not a lot more liberal than Dean...maybe 20 years ago but not now.

[Radical Activist]

86. I didn't say a LOT more liberal

but if you compare their records, not the campaign rhetoric, Kerry is more liberal than Dean. I think the war in Iraq is the main reason people thought otherwise.

[Cheswick2.0]

88. Kerry is not more liberal at all

give me some specifics please. Kerry neither ran as being more liberal, nor has he voted as a liberal for many years.

[Radical Activist]

89. It's not that Kerry is so liberal

it's that Dean is very much a moderate. Weren't you arguing that point in another thread? So is Dean a liberal or a moderate this time? This is exactly why I don't like Dean. One day he's leading a progressive movement to save the party from the DLC moderates and the next day he's a modrate again. Go ahead and prove to me that Dean is more liberal than Kerry if you like.

Off the top of my head I would say one issue where Kerry is more liberal is the environment. Kerry has an excellent enviro record and a great plan for alternative fuels. Dean had a good plan too (which I'm sure you'll tell me about) but didn't have such high marks for his record as Governor as Kerry has as Senator.

On most issues they were very similar. Both had supported NAFTA but wanted to reform our trade policies. Both wanted to take the same approach with Iraq. They had the same stance on civil unions. I don't think there's a big difference except that Dean used more progressive language and themes during the primary than Kerry.

[lojasmo]

97. IWR, NCLB, USAPATRIOT act....Um, wait....

:eyes:

[Radical Activist]

99. and the main difference is...

Dean wasn't in the Senate to vote on those things.

They both had the same approach about wanting to bring more troops from other nations to Iraq and keep the war going for years.
They both wanted to make changes to NCLB.
They both wanted to make changes to the PATRIOT act without repealing the entire thing

They had different rhetoric but not significantly different proposals about what to do as President. Dean deserves credit for speaking out against those things but that's as far as he went.

[lojasmo]

102. No, the main difference is....

Kerry voted with the republicans on these issues. Dean had no purview over these issues as governor of vermont. Kerry should have voted against those pieces of legislation, but chose not to in order to remain "electable" Didn't quite work out that way, though.

[Rockerdem]

132. In the end, Kerry got no value from voting for Repuke issues

In fact, Bush turned them right around on him and crapped on him for being a nuancer because of them. JFK would have been better served remaining the liberal that he used to be 10 or so years ago.

[lojasmo]

142. You're right, he sold out because he miscalculated. N/T

[RetroLounge]

127. But Kerry is Electable, remember?

:eyes:

I love Howard Dean, and not just because he speaks truth to power.

I love the fact that the same bunch of posters here get their panties in a bunch and jump all over every Howard Dean thread. So predictable its pathetic.

Make me love HD even more!

RL

[lojasmo]

143. I love it too. The same toadies who told us to shut up in the primaries..

Still carping on. It's great!

The nice thing is that the smarter ones can grasp that running to the right, and eschewing the base might have been a mistake.

[Radical Activist]

221. It's also predictable

that every time someone posts a negative opinion about Howard Dean that the Dean Damage Control Corp comes marching in and at least three people have to respond to every negative comment. Zealotry can be good but sometimes it gets old on this board.
Every time some other leader has a speech or article it gets posted in the appropriate LBN or articles/editorials forum and maybe once in GD. Every time Dean farts it has to be posted five times by five different people in every forum. Sheesh

[IndianaGreen]

229. Mister Electable conceded the election before all the votes were counted

and has not said one word about the Ohio recount. I guess he is too busy getting ready to run again in 2008.

[lojasmo]

96. That poster (and you) should prove that negative assertion

Ah, wait....it's impossible to do so, yet it's so easy to make an umprovable assertion.

[IndianaGreen]

228. What sort of liberal would vote for a war of aggression and to repress

civil liberties at home? IWR and PATRIOT are not the sort of legislation a real liberal would vote for.

The GOP accused Kerry of being a Massachusetts liberal. They were only half right!

[derby378]

72. Suck on it, Jones...

I voted for Howard Dean and caucused for him at our senatorial convention. Gimme a Dean scream, somebody!

[Butterflies]

92. Yyyeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!

[janx]

73. The absolute disdain and disrespect that people like this have

for the American electorate is not to be believed.

[KoKo]

82. That's what hit me...and that Democrats would do it to their own so early

in only the first two primaries. Why not allow Dean to go through the whole process and let the "VOTERS" eliminate him rather than have Kerry/Gephardt "527" do it. If their polling showed Dean was "unelectable" and that's why Jones says they "took him down" then what would have been the harm in letting the people they polled not vote for him.

How could Kerry have been so worried that he would have wanted Dean elimnated before he even had a chance to be voted on? That's the question I have after listening to Jones. Much of what he said just seemed to not make sense unless they were terrified of Dean...:shrug:

As much as I supported Dean and Kucinich (BOTH) I knew that neither would be elected but I wanted them to stay in the primaries so the PEOPLE had a chance to decide. I always had a gut feeling Kerry would be the nominee but I thought he would be the final Candidate because he was more experienced in foreign affairs, had been in the Senate and was a War Hero...NOT because he would team up with Gephardt to destroy a popular rival in the first primaries. If he couldn't win it on his own then what does that say? I really don't know. I expected better of him and I worked for him. I can't believe that he would support knocking Dean out and then run a campaign where we had to keep on his campaign managers for him to fight back against the Swift Boat Vets.

It makes very little sense..but it's very disheartening to all of us who were out there fighting for Kerry.. :shrug:

[janx]

104. I volunteered for him too. Now I'm sorry I did.

I can honestly say that.

[killbotfactory]

87. Kerry and Gephardt supported this shit...

And then Kerry was caught completely off-guard when the republicans did it to him.

That's fucking inexcusable.

Was he really so arrogant or niave to think that the republicans wouldn't attack him for vietnam, or having a "pre-9/11" mentality that would lead to another catostrophic attack?

Do the democratic party leaders who support this shit care more about the party, or keeping their own power?

Our current party "leaders" need to be put out to pasture, so people who know what they're doing can take over.

[janx]

105. They care more about their own power.

That much is obvious.

[greenohio]

90. I guess theres not point in voting in the primaries.

Apparently they're fixed. This is one conspiracy theory that will never die.

[lojasmo]

98. Because it's true.

Dean said so two years ago, and it's still true today. front loaded primaries ARE a sure way to fix the primary election (by fix, I mean not the good way) The caucus system is also a way to keep the voice of the electorate down. I've always voted democratic, yet have never voted in a presidential primary, because sitting at a meeting to caucus seemed too intimidating. I did it this year because of Howard Dean, and caucussed for him (long after he dropped out) I will caucus from now on (though it may be with the green party depending on the direction our party goes in the next couple of years)

Front loaded primaries and the caucus system will kill our party, if the DLC and other capitulating, centrist bastardization doesn't do it first.

[KoKo]

100. This Primary season was all screwed up. NC didn't have a Primary

until a week before the Democratic Convention, fgs! It took the momentum and excitement that folks needed to feel involved. The "front-loaded" Primaries were McAuliff's idea...and I hope when he goes they go with him. I'd like to see staggered primaries with different areas of the country voting...but done within a few months, not dragged on like this one was with many states just getting what was left over and not having a chance to decide amongst front runners. Killing off Dean early and Gephardt dropping out was really bad. Who knows who would have won without all the meddling by the DNC/DLC...:shrug:

[janx]

106. Did anyone listen to the question posed to David Jones near the

end of this video--and to his response? Part of the questiona addresssed why he tried to hide the donors as much as he did.


Jones said he was most worried about the Gephardt and Kerry donors because they were running in Iowa. He was less worried about the one Clark donor because there was only one and because Clark wasn't running in Iowa.

(There were something like only 20 donors in all.)

[janx]

107. kick for the evening crowd

[madfloridian]

109. Janx, I got my husband to view the video.....for about 1 minute.

Then he walked away from the computer, and I won't repeat what he said. He did say the SOB is laughing about it!...and more.

Guys like Jones live for polls, not for what is right.

[janx]

110. Mine could not view it for long either. The reaction was

identical. The ensuing language was foul. And then he decided he would go back to being an independent.

This stuff is very hard to stomach. Guys like Jones live for polls because they are essentially greedy and thuggish. But think of the people who financed the effort; they're thugs too, thugs who were trying to thwart the electorate and hide while they were doing so.

I'm just wondering what else was involved in this 527. Jones touted the commercials, but you can bet there's more.

Dear God, no wonder Dems lost. What kind of dog-and-pony show is this thing that is supposed to be democratic politics?!

[KoKo]

119. I had to bake mine brownies and fast forward to the Jones part and then

the "Q&A" he was so disgusted with the first part with the Bush Ad Campaign he was pacing.

But, I made him watch it by filling him with brownies...so he could see what was done to us...and that "twerp" (as he called him)Jones who brags about how he "brought down Dean."

I told him we need to know...he canvassed weekend after weekend for Kerry and got many volunteers... But, he didn't ever understand what happened to Dean...this video made the connection for him...

On Edit: I've watched the whole thing twice today..and it makes me sick ..but it needs to be seen over and over so this never happens again.

[janx]

124. Next time, put something substantial in the brownies...

Honestly, that's all I can think of right now!

[KoKo]

128. lol's .....lacing the brownies! didn't think of that..

[Blue_Tires]

113. so let me get this straight::

he takes Dean down with a dirty attack, DOESN'T do the same to Bush, we lose the election, and the piece of shit is proud about it????
talk about winning a battle and losing the war...

[janx]

114. It wasn't just Jones--

It included backers of Kerry, Geppy, and Clark, and the effort was timed so that these people could hide their paper tracks until all danger of a backlash had passed.

Jones was the "consultant" who put it together. Yes, he's proud. It's like the stereotypical mindset of a petty crook, no? ;-)

[madfloridian]

115. Here you go....A Political Mugging from Center for Public Integrity.

This was such a dangerous man, it took all these folks to bring him down,....and Jones loved it. He is arrogant about it.

http://www.public-i.org/report.aspx?aid=194&sid=200

SNIP.."On November 7, 2003, a strange new group no one had ever heard of called "Americans for Jobs & Healthcare" was quietly formed and soon thereafter began running a million dollar operation including political ads against then-frontrunner Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. The commercials ripped Dean over his positions or past record on gun rights, trade and Medicare growth. But the most inflammatory ad used the visual image of Osama bin Laden as a way to raise questions about Dean's foreign policy credibility. While the spots ran, Americans for Jobs—through its then-spokesman, Robert Gibbs, a former Kerry campaign employee—refused to disclose its donors."

SNIP.."The most stunning single fact to emerge—which should have been covered more heavily nationwide and was first broken by the Web site PoliticsNJ.com—was that disgraced former Senator Robert Torricelli, severely admonished for his unsavory campaign finance practices and forced to leave the Senate, had quietly donated $50,000 from his old Senate campaign account to Americans for Jobs. Torricelli reportedly also is a fundraiser for Senator Kerry's presidential campaign..."

SNIP.."Americans for Jobs was a street rumble after dark, in which donors or fundraisers for the major Democratic presidential candidates then overshadowed by Dean—Kerry, Rep. Richard Gephardt, and retired General Wesley Clark—all piled on. Labor unions that had publicly endorsed Gephardt accounted for a fifth of the money—the International Longshoremen's Association ($50,000), the Laborers' International Union of North America ($50,000), the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers ($100,000), the International Association of Ironworkers ($25,000) and the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers ($5,000). A former Dean donor, former Slim-Fast Foods businessman S. Daniel Abraham, gave $200,000. Past Kerry donor Bernard Schwartz, chairman of Loral Space and Communications—the tenth leading donor to the Democratic Party, giving $5.3 million over the years—chipped in $15,000. A top money chaser for Wesley Clark, Alan Patricof, also donated to this shadowy group...."
..

[eridani]

123. Exactly the point

It would be much easier to get over if Kerry had played that kind of hardball against Bush.

[bklyncowgirl]

135. That sound about right

It would be one thing if Democrats had a high minded moral attitude that said "All of our attacks will be above the belt." or even that they didn't know how to put a shadow 527 together and keep it below the radar screen.

It's pretty obvious they know how to do gutter politics when they want to. The problem is that when they want to appears to be limited to knee capping maverick Democrats. They do not seem to be willing to use these tactics against Republicans.

My personal belief is that had the Democrats not conspired to bring Dean down, Kerry might well have won the nomination anyway as the primaries went on and the anybody but Dean choices narrowed down. Either way, the difference is that our candidate would have been the survivor in a long hard struggle and alot better equipped to face an incumbent with the competitive ethics of a junk yard dog.

[IndianaGreen]

230. C'mon man, drink some more of that ABB Kool-Aid!

Mister Electable will take us to the Promised Land.

:beer:

[Bread and Circus]

117. Saddam's capture took Dean down. That's about it.

[janx]

118. YEAH. SURE.

Sorry, but I don't believe Americans are that stupid--regardless of media manipulation.

[KnowerOfLogic]

129. Yeah, given that pro-war dems couldn't wait to dis Dean's remark that

Sadaam's capture didn't make us any safer. Remember that? They couldn't wait to show everybody how much they were on Bush's side, and against the democratic rank and file, and agaist america for that matter.

[Bread and Circus]

140. Hey, I think Dean was right but you can temporally mark the day...

w/ Dean's downward trend in the polls to Saddam's capture.

Personally, I think Dean would have been a better candidate
than Kerry - way better. I didn't think so at the time but
now I do. But at that time, when Saddam was caught, Dean
started looking a lot more risky of a choice.

[janx]

150. Not for people with brains. Going to Iraq was a huge blunder,

and most people knew that.

All of the military hoopla in the media didn't change that fact.

[Bread and Circus]

157. You are failing to tease apart the fact that Dean was right but...

the perception that people had at the time.

The facts: Dean was right, Iraq was a huge mistake.

The perception: Back in the primaries, it was only beginning
to be painfully obvious to all but "the choir" that Iraq was
a mistake. Also, Bush was still "infallible". The Dem
primary voters wanted to put up someone w/ military cred when
Saddam was caught. Personally, I think a Clark/Dean ticket
or a Dean/Clark ticket would have been our best bet. Two
Centrist plainspoken outsiders. That would have been way
better then a pair of politician-lawyers that voted for the IWR
and then fell into the trap of voting against add'l War funding.

Clark/Dean - Dean/Clark.

Also, it would have been a great break w/ the Lawyer tradition
holding too much sway over our politics.

[Larkspur]

159. Yes, Dean should have phrased that statement better. In fact he should

have turned it into a question of the Bush Admin's and the pro-war Dems competence. Here's what Dean should have said about Saddam's capture.
I congratulate our Armed Forces for capturing Saddam Hussein. Hussein was a brutal dictator and when justice is served, the Iraqi people will be better off without him. But... can the Bush Administration and my fellow Democrats who voted for the Iraq war, explain to the American people, why our troops in Iraq are still being attacked after Saddam has been captured and his two brutal sons killed? The American people have a right to know.

[janx]

161. That combination would have been a good one. BUT--

I cringed (and still do) at the notion that we had to have a military guy running on the ticket. That was capitulation to the Bush* framing of the debate.

We have to stop *reacting* to the right wingers all the time. That's never going to change anything.

[Bread and Circus]

177. I get your point, but Bush Saudi cxn aside, we were attacked by OBL

There's no denying we are in a military (albeit asymmetrical)
and great political conflict.

[janx]

204. WE have the greatest military on earth.

We don't have to capitulate to the right wingers.

[KnowerOfLogic]

225. Exactly; it's an admission that we're weak on defense and need

to "make up for it" by having a military guy on the ticket.

[KnowerOfLogic]

224. Dems contributed to the very war hysteria that made Dean "risky."

They were not only undermining Dean's candidacy, but they were undermining the whole democratic party, because by helping to make "who's the most pro-war?" the deciding issue, they virtually guaranteed that repukes would win. They were attempting to gain some short-term advantage by aligning themselves with the marauding mob, instead of with the voices of reason. Not only was it wrong morally, but it was also wrong strategically.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

174. Dean stated he'd attack the media monopolies so the scream was used

to character assassinate him in the same media.
The DNC/DLC/PNAC coalition supported the lobotomy of the primaries.

Dean had the strongest personality in the race and that is a winning trait. So they portrayed it as a liability in the same way that knowing things is portrayed as 'elitism.'

Orwellification is a tactic that works for the DNC, too.

Actual leadership is a threat to the good cop/bad cop scam that our two party system has been replaced with.

Message: Doing the right thing against money gets you offed.

[wyldwolf]

134. dirty politics

If you enter public life, dirty politics comes with the territory.

If I were a Dean supporter, I wouldn't be surprised at this, nor would I be feigning outrage.

In addition to what was listed in this thread that the Dean camp did or was alleged to have done (dogging Kerry with Flip Flops or signs that claimed Kerry = Bush), I might also include allegations that the Dean camp were planning to slip non-Iowans into the Jan. 19 caucuses to pose as state residents and support Dean, and calling Clark a "republican."

The one being alleged here against Dean is particularly heinous, but such is politics.

[eridani]

137. Not really, at least when it comes to Dems taking on Bush

They get dirty only with each other.

[wyldwolf]

138. good point

Too bad the vitriol the candidates directed at each other wasn't saved for Bush.

But that is the Democratic party.

Circular firing squad - magnified on DU!

[Edgewater_Joe]

144. And Yet They Were Caught Off Guard By The Swift Boat Liars?!

Douchebags.

Complete, total, absolute douchebags.

They. Have. GOT. To. GO.

[Larkspur]

152. I agree with you on that.

The cockroaches of the Democratic Party have got to go.

[IndianaGreen]

232. The swift boat veterans have attacked Kerry in every election he has run

Why would Kerry be at all surprised that his old enemies reared their ugly heads when he ran for President is beyond me?

[Ripley]

156. Why, oh why am I not surprised?

At this revelation and by the oh-so-expected Dean-trashers in this thread?

Funny how the proof they were always asking for turns up right from the horse's mouth and yet they still blame Dean. Yep. His fault he was expected to not only fight the repukes, but the entire Democratic establishment too. Man he's a wimp! Unlike Kerry of course, who so strongly took a stand for the vote count to finish.

[XemaSab]

160. DEAN CAN'T BE BROUGHT DOWN

YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAARGH!

[greenohio]

162. Wow, they teamed up on the front runner. They should have just let him

win. How underhanded of them to try to win the nomination. I really don't know how they live with themselves.

[TeacherCreature]

163. This shameful episode contributed significantly to Bush's victory

Because it infected the IWR supporting Dems with the insufferable hubris that their two-faced, Bush-lite approach to the issues would carry the day.

And carry them it did--to defeat and disaster.

I volunteered and worked hard for Kerry and hoped that he wpuld prove to be the kilelr that he claimed to be.

I do NOT regret it--it was the only thing to do--but I will certainly not REPEAT it.

[janx]

200. Yes, and also because the natural momentum of the campaign

process was gone. When the resources of the supporters of these three were pooled to kick Dean out--together with some vote swapping deals at the Iowa caucus--the people were no longer in control of who would win the nomination.

The polls were.

And the momentum fizzled.

[KoKo]

214. Janx! Thanks for saying that! They destroyed the "Natural Big Mo" that

we Democrats could have had to bring out the Bush lies...By pulling that "stunt" purely political and vicious one wonders where David Jone's loyalties truly are. In the discussion he says "I founded the "527."
Why did he found a "527" just to go after Dean...? I don't think we've checked into David Jones throroughly enough. Maybe he is a "true" progressive and was determined that Kerry was the best candidate so he formed the "527" just for his own "group" who wanted Dean out...and it's as simple as getting the Gephardt Labor folks together with some DLC'ers who wanted to ramrod Kerry in there early.

But, it doesn't make sense that Kerry ran such a poor campaign after Dean was "knocked down" if he was "TRULY" their annointed one. There's more to it than that, I think. But, I'm at a loss to figure out what. :eyes: We need to know more about this..but I don't know where to dig to find it. Maybe you and others know who were more involved in the Dean Campaign from the very beginning.

[TeacherCreature]

217. I really really hate them for what they did.

What they did was evil.

And they are idiots as well, because they helped us all to lose, and doomed our nation in the process.

[itzamirakul]

164. What no one mentions...

After reading this entire thread, I was struck by the thought that what no one mentions is the fact that the DLC wanted a candidate who would leave the field clear for a 2008 Hillary Clinton run. Only one poster mentioned the fact that the DNC wanted a candidate that they could control and evidently Dean was not that man.

Now, some months before the primaries, when the media was going ga-ga wondering if Hillary would throw her hat into the presidential race, a newspaper article in one of the New York papers said that if she didn't run in 2004, the Dems would have to pick a 2004 candidate that would make possible a Hillary run in 2008. Then both Kerry and Edwards were mentioned in that same article as most likely to make that scenario a possibility. In other words, the DLC would enter a place-holder on the ballot in 2004, thereby conceding the race from the start. Dean, however, if he won in 2004, would certainly run for re-election in 2008.

At the time, being a lot more politically naive than I am presently, I passed over the importance of what was being suggested. Still believing in the integrity of the party leaders I simply could not buy into the "placeholder theory."

But now I understand that this "theory" would explain Kerry's lack of playing real hardball during the campaign, his gentlemanly "good manners" during a rough and tumble fight, his willingness to endorse the war and move to the right and away from the base, and above all, his nearly immediate concession and unwillingness to join the voter fraud challenge.

[janx]

166. The right wingers harbor this fantasy...they can't wait for her

to run.

They're salivating about the prospect already.

[itzamirakul]

170. That's why I can't underrstand why

she would even consider running in the first place. She has too much baggage. I really like Hillary, she is my Senator...but now after finding out so much about the DLC, I just don't feel that I can support another candidate that they back. I might as well register as a Republican if I do that.

Hillary knows how they came after her when she was First lady, so there is no telling just how bad it would be in a run for the pesidency.

[janx]

183. I don't think she's going to run.

She knows what would happen. And it's such a shame, too, because she'd make a terrific president.

[KoKo]

180. I don't think the Dem party wanted to be out in the wilderness 4 more

years, hoping Hillary would run...That's too far a stretch even for my "tinfoilhat" mind. I think that was the RW putting that out to whip up the Clinton/Hillary hate.

It's not that I don't think the DLC would have loved to have a Clinton, but she wouldn't run. She's just used as a threat. It's just to much of a stretch to have our party ruined just so Hillary could run. Who would be left to vote for her with an imploded party coming off two stolen elections??

[RealLiberal4U]

165. And You Are Suprised...?

After all, it is politics.

[ibegurpard]

222. Not surprised at all

Why would you be surprised by the reaction? That's politics as well, after all.

[KoKo]

167. OOPS!

[madfloridian]

175. Ever since Jones said this, the attacks here on Dean have grown.

Like it is all our fault or Dean's. There is just one thing after the other now.

[Walt Starr]

178. Yep, I'm a hair's breath away from saying "fuck it"

I'll wait until February, but methinks the DLC will get their wish.

Know any third parties that could become viable in the next generation or so? I'm open to all possibilities!

[KoKo]

193. And...the point was it was our OWN DEMS...EATING OUR OWN! That's

the point. It's like telling folks who poured their hearts and souls into Dean's campaign that they just should "Get Over It" and yet Dean folks joined his campaign because he's the first who said Florida Selection was a LIE! Iraq Invasion was a Lie!

But, now folks are called bitter, angry Deaniacs who can't get over it and move along. YET everywhere in America Kerry owed his "close vote" with Chimp to the very DEAN/KUCINICH/CLARK activists who joined together to Get the VOTE OUT.

Our own Dems trash us...folks here on DU who are allied with them in the DLC/DNC trash us. The Socialists and Left Leaning Libertarians here, trash us....The Freeps laugh at us for our "Infighting."

The Green Party looks more an more appealing to me...a diehard Dem..these days. :-(

[janx]

194. The libertarians?

I have to disagree with you there--unless you mean some isolated libertarians on this board.

Dean enjoys a good amount of libertarian support.

I agree with the rest of your post.

[IndianaGreen]

234. This Socialist supported Dean and Kucinich

and ended up voting for Dennis in the Indiana primary because he was the only remaining antiwar candidate still in the race.

[IndianaGreen]

233. The same cast of characters

who have yet to admit to themselves, much less to the rest of us, that Kerry led us to the worst electoral defeat since the Reagan days.

[Catherine Vincent]

176. Well if Kerry was involved in taking down Dean then Dean

got the last laugh...being that he is the one that started the "flip-flop" lingo against Kerry.

[merh]

190. Darned tootin'

you tell 'em cat_girl25! :yourock:

[janx]

191. The two are hardly comparable.

Sorry. This is the first time I have support for three candidates in a primary join forces to knock out one other.

It's pretty bad.

[Cheswick2.0]

211. yup and too see people support that action after spending so many

months denying it happened at all is disturbing. To compare the smear adds against Dean while screaming bloody murder about he swiftboat liars is pretty hypocritical. To compare that to a remark about flip flopping is ridiculous.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

216. It's not hypocritical because it's not the same

The Swift Boat ads were out and out fabrications, and it was Kerry's responsiblity to counter them, just as it was up to Dean to respond to these ads. Every candidate has to be ready to respond to the worst possible attacks, because they know they are coming.

But the false premise here is that these ads were what lead to Dean's demise. I look and see references to the Saddam capture above, and then there are the clear differences Kerry was able to make with Dean regarding the tax cuts. The campaign dynamic tends to bring out each candidate's character, and that is what happened in Iowa. Iowans had plenty of time to look at them all, and in the big picture these ads were a very, very small part of the campaign.

[madfloridian]

219. Well, let's see. That plus Clinton's calls....and the abortion stuff..

and the Jewish wife stuff. Clinton's calls to switch to Clark hurt especially when he said Dean could not be elected because of the civil unions bill. A lot to overcome. I think the Confederate flag rallies paid for by other Democrats did not help either. Not good to have calls saying they did abortions...do you think?

Also Iowa did the choosing, one small state. 37 states never got to vote for the full slate of potentials before most were out.

[janx]

220. It's hard for some people to come to grips with the corruption. n/t

[XemaSab]

239. Clue me in...

I keep hearing these "confederate flag" rumors. Who was behind that???

Hook me up with some gossip, please!

:-)

[ProudToBeLiberal]

197. yeeeeaaaarrrggggghhhhhhhhhhh

[ever_green]

209. lol

:)

[TeacherCreature]

218. And good for him!! As a candiate, Kerry sucked and it's time we admit it.

His mealy-mouthed, incoherent effort was a miserable failure that we should learn from, or be doomed to repeat it AGAIN.

[XemaSab]

238. You know,

Election night I watched old Saturday Night Live debate send ups.

Gerald Freakin' Ford was on there whining that he'd been called a flip-flopper by his opponent, and trying feebly to refute it.

Do you think no republicans would have ever figured out that Kerry voted yes on the IWR but no on the 87 billion? Or any of the other times Kerry has had a change of heart?

Dean may have been the first to apply the label to Kerry (though I doubt it), but it would have come out and been an issue in the general election regardless.

[Mike L]

227. Your post also says this is why they "took him down":

"Dean was polling high in every state but their polling showed that he "wasn't electable,"

That's what I knew also. His temper and unguarded statements made him unelectable. Of course, Kerry turned out to be unelectable too. I think Gephardt had the best chance of any to win because he was the "generic democrat".

[madfloridian]

231. I think Gep should be DNC chair...why isn't he running?

That is who we need. A generic democrat who speaks softly.

[Bush was AWOL]

235. Awww, poor Dean!

Lol! Dean obviously couldn't handle playing on the same stage as the big boys. The outrage by Dean supporters in this thread really is quite laughable.

[madfloridian]

236. LOL LOL I am laughing.

He who laughs last and all that stuff.

Anyone who approves of what happened is not on the side of democracy.

[Bush was AWOL]

237. I don't see what the big deal is...

are you against 527's? Dean was Kerry's only threat, imo and he took him down. What is the big deal? Dean couldn't fight back?