What happens when they start arresting us?

[Us vs Them]

Not so much paranoia as preparing for an eventuality.

It is quite possible that each and every one of us put has our own freedoms at risk by speaking out against this administration. The Government's broad definition of 'terrorism' is widening over unsubstantiated fears that subversive groups pose a true threat to the American way of life. What is terrorism, and who is guilty of it? This is becoming an increasingly difficult question to answer, and as the free thinkers of this society, we need to take into account someday we may be the answer to that question the administration is floundering to answer.

At this moment in time, it may still be hard for some of us to imagine. "But WE are the true patriots who would want nothing more than for American democracy to prevail." As news worsens, I'm increasingly concerned sometime in the near future the word 'patriot' under their definition will be a citizen who is blind and dumb to the process of the law. A 'patriot' does not stir up trouble and does not question authority. New rights afforded law enforcement under the 'Patriot Act I and II' allow for unlimited detention without bail. The crime of 'terrorism,' associating with suspected terrorists, or even THINKING about terrorism is enough to suspend whatever rights of a citizen you may still retain under the current laws. I'm desperately afraid of, but cautiously preparing for the day when we are the suspects. As a group dedicated to improving America, we need legal protection. We need to discuss with our lawyers, researchers, and legal experts to find out just how many rights we still have as American citizens. We need to organise a plan of legal reaction for when one of our own is held without due process, because in my opinion, the day that occurs is when we spot the first crack in the dam.

Define Terrorism Now.

[indigobusiness]

1. Fear of speaking freely

is the first throe of death to a free country.

[genius]

26. They'll soon arrest all protesters as in Germany. Count on it.

The trouble is that the US is going the way of Germany unless we can get millions into the street to say "no" to Bush, it's all over.

[indigobusiness]

28. I won't argue

with that.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. they studied their recent history

and they are determined to not allow the type of domestic opposition to the vietnam war to develop here this time 'round. I'm afraid your fears are entirely justified, however you need to work on your posting skills as your attempt to apply font emphasis to your text has left it mostly unreadable.

begin paranod rant

I think that the most reasonable explanation for the last 12 years or so is that 9/11 was either a miracle of opportunity or a well planned reichstag fire catalyst. The 'patriot act' appeared in entirety, perhaps through divine transmission, although in size alone it is beyond the scope of even the 10 commandments in terms of G*d's data bandwidth (maybe she got an upgrade,) almost concurrent with the chorus of God Bless America on the capital steps.

The boiled frog descent into outright totalitarian fascism includes not only the patriot act, election fraud, and the phony WOT, but also such things as media consolidation and the continued assault on the various media players who are not totally with the program, such as viacom/cbs.

I was listening to the hideous o'reilly radio show on thursday, and his thing now is passionate advocacy for a government clampdown on 'blogs' which he seems to (deliberately of course) confuse with 526C advocacy groups. I think perhaps the internet is a bit of a monkey wrench in their battle plans.

Should you be afraid? Well yes, but the worse they can do is kill you and everyone you love :-)

To answer your question, I think they are right now trying to establish the legal precedent for application of gitmo style enforcement on anyone anywhere under the umbrella of national security. I think they will succeed in their efforts. Your legal preparations will be of no use if your lawyer can't find you and you can't communicate with your lawyer.

end paranoid rant

[Us vs Them]

4. Ahhh, pasted from Word document.

No enhancement, just pesky single quotations.

Will edit, thanks for the heads up! (Odd, it looks fine on this end, but I have a Mac.)

[Seabiscuit]

6. Perhaps Skinner can help DU'ers at least...

He knows who we are behind our "handles". If one of us mysteriously disappears, he could notify the lawyers among us (myself included) and we could collectively take action, once we knew the identity/identities of anyone here arrested under the Patriot Act.

[shadowknows69]

36. thats the key

even being aware someone is missing. I have a family that will miss me immediately but people living alone could be gone for weeks before anyone other than their job noticed. A network of people on here to check up on people who haven't posted in a while might be a good idea if the crap does start smothering the rotary oscillator.

[Us vs Them]

8. Is there power in numbers?

Of course, every scenario I can imagine is easily thwarted by current society.

Example: You are arrested. Eventually your parents realise you're missing and get suspicious. They suspect you are being held against your will by the American government. They allert the media - who don't really care because, well, they now found steroid use rampant in the golf world, or something equally important.

Or: You are arrested. Someone from DU realises you're missing and organises a form of protest. All those people are subsequently arrested. Again, no media coverage.

Or: You are arrested. The media jump on the story and you are the next Timothy McVeigh.

Fun! Almost makes me want to move to the suburbs and have a few kids/SUV.

[shadowknows69]

37. wow, piss on my wheaties

:(

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Question!

You wrote:


"I think that the most reasonable explanation for the last 12 years or so is that 9/11 was either a miracle of opportunity or a well planned reichstag fire catalyst. The 'patriot act' appeared in entirety, perhaps through divine transmission, although in size alone it is beyond the scope of even the 10 commandments in terms of G*d's data bandwidth (maybe she got an upgrade,) almost concurrent with the chorus of God Bless America on the capital steps."


Love the writing style but could you explain what you mean by your first sentence? The "12 years" is something I'm wondering about plus you're saying the most reasonable explanation (singular) is an either/or (plural.)

????? and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Warren Stupidity]

17. the last 12 years

would start at the close of the bush-I regime, demarcated by the aftermath of Gulf Farce I. It was around this time that a new mindset started to coalesce within the right. The cold war was over, finally, and the world was safe for old fashioned anglo-american imperialism.

It was the first we started to hear about the infamous New World Odor that we (the big WE, as in the citizens of planet earth) are now the victims of. It includes Globalization, both economic and military, religious fundamentalism, the assault on liberal democratic socialism, the assault on modernity. It included the realization that a successful Clinton administration would make it very difficult to control the US, and thus the no-holds barred assault on that centrist regime. It includes the PNAC outline for world hegemony, and the providential WTC attack that allowed that plan to proceed. It includes election fraud of course.

The point is that like paranoids, sometimes the conspiracy theorists are actually right, sometimes there is a conspiracy.

Sorry about the grammar errors. The point is that the WTC strike constitutes either a miracle or evidence of almost unthinkably evil collusion. These are essentially opposing explanations for the singular fact that 9/11 was unacceptably fortuitous for the sitting administration.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. OK, got it about the 12 years, and agree that

Clinton's approval of NAFTA, etc., gave us a big shove down the slippery slope we're now on. Of course, it was Jimmy Carter's man who wrote "The Global Chessboard" so the origins of PNAC seem to tangle in with that.

I didn't mean to sound like the grammar police, it was just that I couldn't make the first half of the sentence work with the second half, maybe because of an edit you did while in Word. I use a Mac, too, but write my posts here, sometimes using preview or spell check if something looks wrong. When I lose a long post here, as happens occasionally, I wish I had used Appleworks, though.

Edit: Carter's man is the guy whose name I can pronounce but spelling it is more difficult. First name begins Zb and last name Br.

[AntiFascist]

31. Perhaps not MIHOP, but I wouldn't consider it a miracle either...

rather, thinkably evil opportunism.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. I don't buy it.

They write a document that says that they need another pearl harbor and then they lie cheat and steal to get their guy into office and then as soon as their guy is in office they get their pearl harbor and, surprise, they are all packed and ready to go.

Their plans required a lot of luck and 'opportunities'. It is not their style to leave things to chance. See the recent election. I conclude that they didn't leave the catalyst of 9/11 to chance either.

Your explanation has them sitting around hoping, praying, that something really horrible will happen that involves arabs, and that it will justify invading and occupying Iraq. I don't buy it, not for one minute. They only pay lip service to religious fervor, they don't believe in that crap and neither do I. Miracles don't happen.

So what I'm really curious about is what would have happened if Kerry actually had managed to pull an upset, managed to win enough votes to overwhelm the cheating. There was no way he was going to get to be president. So what was plan B?

[AntiFascist]

33. They weren't just sitting around....

and I think they may have had unexpected "friends" amongst their "enemies" probably just as we are witnessing now. My feeling is the administration is not as brilliant as what we give them credit for, but they do seem to receive plenty of help.

[rexcat]

3. Revolution and/ or Civil War!

n/t

[LizW]

5. Read this book

"After" by Francine Prose.

It's fiction for around middle school age kids. I read it because my son was reading it and said it was good.

It is about things that happen in a small town high school after there is a fatal school shooting in a neighboring town. The adults get freaked out and start clamping down on the kids more and more to keep them "safe". Eventually kids who don't conform start disappearing.

It's dark and sort of depressing and exactly parallels America after 9/11.

[Nay]

7. The ACLU has some wonderful videos about the arrest procecure,

search procedure, what's legal and what's not. But of course, * can make anything 'legal' now. And they haven't shown any real desire to do things legally -- look at Guantanamo.

IMHO, $$$ to the ACLU (we give many hundreds per year) is money well spent. If you aren't a member, join.

Unfortunately, if the government in power decides to ignore the law, there are very few ways beside revolution to change things. Lawyers, judges, prosecutors, FBI agents. etc. all want to keep their jobs just like the rest of us. And no one wants to go first. This is why it is SO CRITICAL to have leaders out in front. If they, as monied and secure as they are, won't step up to the plate, how can we expect the poor working slob, who's a week behind on his rent already, to go into the streets protesting for weeks at a time? Or joining a general strike? It's stupid, and it wrongly puts the problem of beginning a revolution smack where it does not belong.

I'm old enough to have been in demonstrations against the Vietnam War, and I'm telling you, college kids with some free time did the job, even though they had college draft deferments and weren't in the immediate line of fire. They were somewhat insulated from the "real" world which demands that you show up to work or get fired. There was a lot of talk back then about lazy, worthless, egghead, spoiled, snotty, rich kids, but the fact is they had the time and the energy to do the job. They also had good role models and leaders in MLK and others, they saw their friends going to die in a worthless war, and they really gave a damn about how the country was going to hell.

We have no such leaders now. MLK got killed for his activism, and the dem bastards nowadays are scared of their effing stock holdings dipping a few points. There is no fixing this problem unless:

1. Dem leaders stop worrying about losing a few millions, and start thinking about those who are losing their lives.

2. The poor working slob gets kicked to the curb so badly (no house, no SUV, no job) that he has nothing left to lose and revolts because of that fact.

It seems we have a way to go before either happens.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Excellent points and I wish I had given all

that money to the ACLU rather than to John Kerry and the DNC.

Dennis Kucinich is willing to say things that no one else will but unfortunately hasn't gotten the following he deserves. Other than him, I just don't know.

[Us vs Them]

13. I AM exactly who you refer to.

College student with no job and plenty of free time.

As it is, every spare second is devoted to contemplating our current political system. I like to joke that my apartment is a think tank.

Yesterday I skipped class to work on nothing but (possibly) arbitrary politics.

I have a computer, I have a printer, I have paper, I have time. Nothing has stopped me from posting flyers up around the city.

I am the ideal activist. There are thousands out there like me. However, I am the only one I know that is taking action into my own hands.

I don't think my fellow students are aware (or care, at this point) just what is at stake.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. No draft = little student activism.

I think we'll soon have a draft but activism will be hobbled by new laws and attitudes.
Very sad.

Glad to know you care, at least!

[Nay]

27. Good for you. I applaud you, and I commiserate with you too,

because I know it is harder for you than it was for me. Back then, we actually could get some support from our dem leaders, the newspapers, lawyers, etc. There were even some cops who sympathized. But not now, IMO because your college colleagues have grown up under rampant Republicanism from Reagan onwards. It's a totally different society, one that isn't very good.

[Gman]

9. Remember Nelson Mandella

Remember MLK's letters from jail.

[yorkiemommie1]

10. who am I?

to the Javerts out there...I'm 24601.

(apologies to Victor Hugo, Les Miserables)

[AntiFascist]

14. Here's my take on what the Bush camp wants....

either we're with them or against them. If we're vocally against them then they would prefer we leave the country. We can do less damage if we are not directly participating in their system. If we choose to stay, then they would prefer we shut up. The MSM has already effectively complied, so all they have to do next is start cracking down on the internet or, at least, impose economic "barriers to entry." If we stay and we don't shut up then they want us to feel paranoid and also to appear that way, as well, to others.

Don't play into their hands.

On edit: I forgot to add the important point I wanted to make: if we are vocal and we start speaking of revolution, I'm sure they would want us to turn to terrorism.

[sunnystarr]

15. There's a lot to be said for free room and board and

medical coverage lol. A grandma over 60 is sure a major threat rofl. I joke to the kids that when I need to go to the hospital for something serious I should rob a bank first ... but then figured I'd only get probation and still be stuck with the bills hehe...

[Us vs Them]

16. What is the definition of 'terrorist?'

I think this is the best legal chance we have.

[AntiFascist]

30. Strictly speaking....

the Revolution of 1776 didn't particularly evoke feelings of "terror" in the average British citizen. I can imagine ways to "form a more perfect union" and "insure domestic tranquility...provide for the common welfare" which might barely raise an eyebrow. The internet is a medium which has yet to be utilized to its fullest extent...

[dogman]

18. The loyalists enjoy the fruits of our labor.

They confiscate our belongings and force us to provide labor for their corporate interests. Haven't you heard them say about the election that to the victor goes the spoils. Just as the Communists seized the property of the elite in Russia and sent them along with dissidents to camps in Siberia, they will do the reverse and send the poor and dissidents to their corporate prisons to produce cheap labor for their corporate enterprises. They have already begun this trend in the ghettoes, they will just expand on this trend.

[davsand]

19. Public discussion of this is both needed AND difficult.

At this point in time there are several groups at risk for "disappearing" in the night. It isn't just the folks who speak out on political boards. It is something everybody should be thinking about--but probably not many really need to be afraid of.

We DUers really are a fairly harmless bunch if you stop to think about it pragmatically. We write a lot of stuff, but many are not really DOING anything beyond the bare bones dissent sort of stuff. When it comes to honest to gosh presenting any danger to anybody, most of the folks on here are not a big risk.

In the 60's the FBI files showed some folks had been investigated and written off as being too idealistic to pose much threat. I think many of the DUers will probably fall into that category. (Please note, I said MANY--not ALL will fall into that category.)

Now that I've made the obligatory condescending remarks and proved myself not to be a raving paranoid:

I am far more worried about groups like labor organizations. This government has already been allowed to remove AFSMCE from certain offices using the argument that they present a threat to security. Under that precedent ALONE any union member is this country should be scared shitless of hearing the late night knock on the door.

Along a similar avenue, I'd be awful worried if I was publicly associated with any non-Judeo Christian religion or political attitude that was too far off the mainstream.

I'm really worried about certain publishers. I'll grant you, Larry Flynt is not a guy I'd like to invite over for dinner and a movie with my kid, but I think he deserves the right to print whatever people will buy. Lord knows the Constitution SAYS he has the right to do that--but I have doubts that this crew will allow ANY publisher of explicit sexual material to go unmolested if they ever decide to bring down the fist.

I carry some concern for my family and for my safety. In part, it is due to my husband's highly visible role in organized labor and politics. In part, it is my own public political activity that makes me worry. (I've taken on some pretty powerful folks in the last few years and I have a few folks who REALLY don't care for me.) I hold office as a Democrat. I am also fairly open online about my attitudes pertaining to religion...

We have a fair number of risk factors going presently. Further adding to it, I'm pretty sure my husband was already on some list or another for international political stuff he did years ago. We have not exactly been subdued people. We have never advocated harm to anyone, nor have we ever spoken badly of our country--just its policies. Even so, we are at risk, I feel.

Now, I ask you, have you EVER tried to talk to people about your fear of our government? Have you EVER just spoken to anyone about what would they do if roundups start? Would they notice if you vanished? Would they DARE?

I have got to tell you, it is not easy to do. A lot of people that you think will support you are gonna look at you like you have slipped a gear. People that ordinarily are your friends are going to laugh at you if you say you are afraid. At best, you will be able to extract a laughing response something like, "Yeah, I guess I'd miss your crazy ass..."

If you seriously feel afraid, you need to talk to people, and you need to be sure they take what you tell them seriously. It isn't easy. You still need to do it.

Laura

[Us vs Them]

23. I have a hard enough time trying to talk to people about vote manipulation

In my head I try to keep two separate personas regarding the society we live in. Aside from my own, there's also Average American. He is the 'control' by which we can analyse the potential growth in this societal experiment known as America. He knows only what he's fed by the media, and when he reads the paper, it's usually for the sports and the coupons. This guy, this Average American, he thinks we're all crackpots, honestly.

Unfortunately Average American does not know much about history. He does not know much about the philandering of our government in the politics of other nations. He doesn't even know what a Diebold is. It is my fear that, to people sharing his mindset, we can be painted as the enemy. Us, right here at Democratic Underground. The ones dedicated to preserving this democracy, regardless of how truly harmless (from a physical standpoint) we may be. And it is when we've lost the empathy of the fellow man that we face a true danger.

It is hard to talk about a roundup; because no matter the cause, there will always be blissfully ignorant loyalists who support the actions taken by the government, regardless of potential impacts on their own future.

I am not afraid for myself. I know regardless of my fate, I will do well. I am, however, worried for us all. The questions brought about by this topic deal more with the increasing polarisation of our society. How deep does the concept of Us vs. Them go? And what potential actions should we take to prepare for the worst.

[DoNotRefill]

20. Do you like the Clash?

They did a song about Brixton. You should read the lyrics.

[Us vs Them]

24. Will look, thanks! n/t

[northernsoul]

25. contact the National Lawyers Guild

get names of good criminal defense lawyers in your area.
NLG is the lefty version of the ABA.

[cali]

29. You can't worry about this stuff overmuch

Or at least I can't. And I'm not about to let it stop me from the dinky things I do, like my peace and justice group, or attending protests I deem important. That things could get worse, is a possibility, but what can you do? Operating out of fear of government reprisal is simply not an option for me.

[Johnny Noshoes]

34. You're right

each of us does what we have to do big or small because its the right thing to do. We can't worry and let fear keep us from speaking our minds or acting on our beliefs.

"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings." — John F. Kennedy

[indigobusiness]

35. Damn right! Gotta nip this stuff in the bud.

It's like Kudzu.