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Wm. Saletan, Nov. 10, 2003..."The New Bum Rap on Howard Dean"

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 10:05 PM
Original message
Wm. Saletan, Nov. 10, 2003..."The New Bum Rap on Howard Dean"
I would not have posted this article ordinarily, but there are a lot of covert and not so covert references to Dean and the flag. I recognize why, but I would like to present his true statements. If William Saletan, not a big fan, defended him, then I think it should tell you something. It is what happens in our country whenever someone tries to point out problems.
They get blasted unreasonably, and it should not be happening at a Democratic forum. I expect it from the Rush and Hannity types, but it is worse here at times. So bear with me.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090775

SNIP..."For days, Dean's opponents have assailed his flag comment. A few minutes into Tuesday's debate, a questioner told Dean, "I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended."

Note the first three words: "I recently read …" The questioner was obviously unaware that Dean has used this line all year. Had the questioner heard Dean's previous speeches, such as the one Dean delivered to the Democratic National Committee in February, he would have known exactly what Dean meant. As Dean put it on that occasion:

DEAN'S WORDS :"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too...."END REMARKS

(Saletan then points out he got an ovation from whites and blacks as well.)

SNIP...Saletan further says: "I have that speech on videotape. I'm looking at it right now. As Dean delivers the line about Confederate flags, the whole front section of the audience stands and applauds. It's a pretty white crowd, but in slow-motion playback, I can make out three black people in the crowd and two more on the dais, including DNC Vice Chair Lottie Shackelford. Every one of them is standing and applauding. As Dean finishes his speech, a dozen more black spectators rise to join in an ovation. They show no doubt or unease about what Dean meant. He wasn't condoning racism. He was saying that his party shouldn't write off people who share its economic philosophy just because they don't yet share its understanding of civil rights.

Dean at the debate:


A demonstration untastefully paid for by one or more of his opponents. Which is worse, trying to tell a hard truth....or paying for something this ugly. No wonder he screamed.









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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Most of us knew what he meant,
but in this "sound bite" culture with the attention span of a day-old gnat, the press didn't bother to clarify it and too many people were left with the wrong impression. That's always pissed me off. Of course, I think Dean could have communicated his message better as well. He'll learn in time, I think, as he gets more accustomed to the national limelight and as he gets more media-savvy.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. We ALL knew what he meant. The whole thing was BULLSHIT,
brought on by those who wanted to be the nominee themselves.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I only bring it up when it is used negatively here.
It is painful to remember. That was a powerful speech about the Southern Strategy. I am a Southerner, and I never heard of Nixon's strategy here. It really opened my eyes.

A lot of people never knew of it....and if they had let him get it out....a lot of people in the south would have listened. I was furious at Edwards' comments about don't you dare tell us how to handle race down here. It was rude and uncalled for.

A lot of the Southern vote could have been won if this rational sane speech could have gotten play. But it did not.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. YES. What Edwards said...
I wanted to fucking BEAT him when he said that.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. And I wanted to beat Dean when I heard him repeatedly emphasize that
for him, race was a white man's issue, and when he repeatedly emphasized that we should look at it through white eyes without giving much of a damn abou the perspective of black Americans.

I didn't expect Edwards and Sharpton to be able to make the book-length argument to Dean about race in contemporary politics that was probably required for Dean and for voters to appreciate the dynamics, but I was pretty happy that Sharpton and Edwards tried to explain the issues to him in their 2 minutes apiece in the debates.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Could you give a source for that please? About his being racist about it?
I would like a source on that. And, guess who flaunts the flag, which race does that?

If Dean or any of us said the sky was blue, you might yell it is purple.

And oh, I am white, and I don't fly the flag.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Here are the parts of my argument:
Dean's argument about race was that it should be seen through the eye's of white people. That racism was a problem that white people suffer. If you have seen Monster's Ball, Bagger Vance or that navy seal movie with Cuba Gooding and Robert DeNiro, you get an idea of what I'm talking about. Both of those movies are about how white people suffer from racism. They make white people feel good -- and celebrate themselves -- for not being racist without asking them to do anything more -- without asking them to make any short term sacrifices so that society can have a long term gain.

In Monster's Ball you have two characters, on white and one black. The white character gets the character arc. The black chacter starts at the bottom, and just keeps going down (in fact, in some ways, this movie takes a little sadistic pleasure in brutalizing this character without rewarding her for her suffering at all). She's a bad mother because she can't get her son to stop eating candy. Her son dies. And then her economic situation gets worse. Thornton's character fucks her (which plays off a couple stereotypes about black women being all about the id and being sexually available to white men). At the end of the movie, Thornton, who started off as a big time racist, makes a big change in his personality: he likes chocolate ice cream. That's the actual metaphor they use in the movie. He has a taste for brown. Wow. That's quite a realization. That's quite a personal revelation born of a huge test of character. Not.

The navy seeal movie is the same. Gooding is always good in that movie. He's Billy Bud. He has no character arc. DeNiro is an asshole, but going through the process of deciding that you don't hate black people irrationally is some huge thing that we're suppsed to pay $8.50 to see, and then feel like we've really gone on an emotional journey by the end.

Look, I'm willing to accept in the first five minutes of any movie that anyone who hates black people irrationally needs to get smacked down. I don't want to watch a whole a movie where realizing you're a racist is supposed to be the enitire plot of the movie and I'm supposed to like thet racist at the end. Racism is not just about how black people make white people feel about themselves. It's about the black experience of America and about things in society that actually operate to screw black people. I want to see movies where the black character goes through the arc and we either see how things need to change and we're happy that they do or we're pissed off that they don't.

In many Hollywood movies about race in the last four years, we give white people a pat on the back because they're willing to share the world with black people. But that's enough. We don't see in Hollywood movies about how we have to change policies to make a difference for Black America.

To me, a movie like Monster's Ball replaces economic slavery with emotional slavery. It says to black people, you may no longer exist to give me free labor which makes me wealthier. But you are here to give me emotions (no matter how inconsequential and self-induldgent) that make me feel better about myself without me actually having to do anything significant that makes your life better.

Now, I seriously think Dean's campaign was deliberately trying to use this mood about race in America to get white liberal votes (I'm sure many white liberals thought Monster's Ball was a thoughtful argument about race), and also to reassure whaite racists that he wasn't going to ask much of them (or not exactly people who would call themselves racists -- but people who identify with the Thornton and DeNiro characters in those movies -- white people who are willing to admit to themselves that they clutch their purses a little tighter when they're on the elevator alone with a black man and who don't, deep down, think it's right that their white son might bet bumped out of a place at Harvard by the daughter of a black woman).

I listened to Dean's speach about race on the stump and in one of his conference calls. It was always the same. He made his statement about being the only person who talked to white audiences about race, and then he told his story about the anti-white male gender discrimination in his office.

That anecdote and analogy were very subtle. Break it down: first, he sets up this idea that there are two kinds of Democratic audiences, the white and the black audience. So he's pushing Ameirca into two worlds. All the white liberals listening probably immediately think he's talking to them as a white audience when he's saying that. You look at your skin, see it's white, and feel, OK, this is the white audience. Then he goes into the analogy about the woman in his office only hiring women, and how that was bad and he told her to hire a man.

OK. that's has got to be very reassuring for all the white men out there in his audience. Dean has just told them all that he is looking out for them and has a record of doing so. He's saying, Hey, I'm on your side. If this PC stuff has gone too far, I'm going to make sure that we're looking after you.

Compare that to other candidates' anecdotes and analogies about race. Clark said that he worked in the most integrated meritocratic office in the world: the US Army. That's true. That's a good point. Clark was part of a system that promoted black men and women straigth to the top. He knows about fasciliting that movement. Long ago, he worked through any hesitations he might have had about black people and for him, and for the last forty years he has been part of the solution and not the problem. Fuck DeNiro's character. A movie about Clark and race would be 2 hours of him pinning medals on the chests of black men and women.

Edwards said that the small town he grew up in is now all Latino, but they all move to that town today for the same exact reason his father moved there 40 years ago: for a better chance for their familes. And Edwards wanted to give them the same chances his father had and he had coming out of that town. That's smart. He's saying, look at me, I have white skin so it's harder for me to say that I have walked in your shoes. But I have definitely walked the same path, and I want to give you the chance I had to reach the same destination I reached. Edwards had another analogy about race. He said that his law school friend would not have gotten into law school but for affirmative action, and that that man graduated first in his class. Edwards said that affirmative action isn't about lowering standards so that we can homogenize socieety to the point of mediocrity. It's about taking down barriers so that people who want to work and succeed have an equal chance to do so and can apply their incredibly talents in a way that lifts up all of society. (Now there's a great movie!)

Kerry's argument about race was that he was on a boat in the war where the enemy's bullet didn't care about the color of your skin and they all worked as a team to look after each other and keep each other safe. Because we worked together and protected each other he could stand on a stage today with 12 of his fellow crew members -- of all different races. Because race was not a barrier from the time they first stepped on that boat, they are all allive today. (That's another great movie. Had DeNiro's character been on that boat, mayber a couple black men wouldn't have made it out.)

Clark, Edwards and Kerry were not appealing to the people who identify with Thornton and DeNiro's charcters at all. The were, in fact, saying they have no time for thinking like that. They were saying that when America thinks like that, it's a waste of time and talent, it can get you killed, and it is totally incompatible with the America dream. They wanted to get the part of the movie over before the credit sequence finishes rolling where we struggle with our racism. In fact, they don't even care to look at America through those eyes.

OK, Edwards, Clark and Kerry's movie about race in America isn't likely to get promoted by Warner Bros or 20th Century Fox, and it's not going to get a ton of publicity from ET and compete for Oscars. But that's the story about race in America that doesn't totally offend me to hear. And I'd much rather have my candidates playing to best intincts about race rather than to (white) people's worst instincts (and white people's worst intincts are that racism in America is all about them personally -- that we need to see racism through the eyes of white men who don't like black people, and that's it's about celebrating them for simly tolerating black people).

And how else did Dean make this argument -- that racism is trial for white people and that we need to look at it mostly through the eyes of white people? He did it with the flag comment after he changed it to saying that he wanted to be the candidate "FOR" those people.

Before he would just say, essentially, I have looked at these people and it makes no sense for these people to vote Republicans because voting Republicans mainitains their economic deprivation. Then he said, "I want to be the candidate for these people." With the new formulation, he was saying not that these people need to drop racism. He was saying that these racists need a voice. That is very different, and it was very sublte. It's like saying, I want to write and direct a movie telling the world what characters played by Thornton and DeNiro suffer for being racists. Like I said, I don't want to see that movie. I want to see the movie where Gooding has the character arc. I think that's going to be more important story for America to hear.

And finally -- the icing on the cake -- he said that hearing Edwards (and not Sharpton) explain the problem opened his eyes. So not only did he subtley say throughout the campaign that he felt that race was something for white people to deal with (but then pretty much said it was enough just to think about it -- he never really explained what he wanted white people to do beyond think about it), even after he screwed up, he STILL emphasized that it was still only going to look at race through the eye's of another white man that.

Now here's the thing about Dean: maybe he was the smart one. Maybe he looked around America and thought, OK, American culture is selling these movies about race which are actually subtely very damaging to black people. But, hell, this is clearly how America is being programmed to think about race, so I'll ride it.

So the question is, do you agree with that strategy? Frankly, I thought Edwards's strategy for talking about race was the most brilliant. To me, that IS the argument about why racism holds us back. Since that it so close to the truth, I wanted to hear that argument get made to America. It's always the truth which the key to unlocking the complicated emotions and that has the greatest power. What Dean was saying might have tapped into a mass sentiment among white people about what race is about in America. But, to me, it's a whitewash meant to cover up the truth about racism, and therefore would have been less powerful and might have actually been damaging to progress on these issues -- which is what I think Sharpton and Edwards were telling him at the debate.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Very little of what you say is what Howard Dean said.
I am not going to argue about it. As I said, no matter what I say or what Dean says, or what anyone who ever supported him says...you will say it is the opposite. That is ok, it is your right.

My right is to back off when explaining does not matter anymore.

Backing off.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Dean said:
Edited on Sun Dec-12-04 11:54 AM by AP
(1) that he understood race discrimination because the woman who did the hiring in his office hired women and he told her to hire men to balance things out,
(2) that he wanted to be the candidate "for" the people in pickup trucks with flags in the windows (after months of simply saying that those people were voting against their best interests by voting Republican)
(3) that it was Edwards who oppened his eyes to the problem with that comment (and didn't say anything about Sharpton's perspective).
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. ROFLMAO
Perhaps the funniest bullshit screed I've ever read at DU.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Very thoughtful post
You brought up some things I hadn't thought of before. Of course it will dismissed offhand by some.
I forgot that Dean claimed to be the only candidate that talked about race to white audiences. I witnessed Edwards, Kerry and Kucinich do that in person during the primary. I was most impressed by how often Edwards raised the issue in middle to upper class white New Hampshire audiences. Edwards always spoke powerfully on the issue.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Dean delivered this message the same way the entire primaries UNTIL...
Edited on Sun Dec-12-04 02:31 AM by AP
...he changed it to say that he wanted to be the candidate "FOR" people with confederate flags.

Nobody said anything about it when he phrased it the other way, and the other candidates rightfully called him on it when he changed his phrasing.

And you have to remember that Dean is a guy who said everything ELSE exactly the same way throughout the entire campaign. He said he was the only Democrat who ever talked about race to white audiences (as if there are white-only Democratic audiences!). After he was reminded of JFK, LBJ, Carter, WJC, and every other Democrat running this year, he acknowledged he was wrong, but STILL DIDN'T CHANGE THAT PART OF HIS STUMP SPEECH. Dean said that he was the only candidate who was against the war. Even after he acknowledged that he wasn't, HE STILL DIDN'T CHANGE THAT PART OF HIS STUMP SPEECH.

Now, Dean may have sounded "off the (rolled-up) cuff," but he was disciplined with his message, and the other candidates were right to jump on Dean as soon as he sounded like he was deliberately modifying a message that had been making a different way for months.

Now, I believe what Edwards was trying to tell Dean in that debate was that southern Democrats don't want to be for the flag waivers. They want to lead them away from flag, and he told dean, more or less, that this is a very difficult process and that when Dean started talking about the issue in a way that even suggested that we should look past the flag, it kind of fucked up all the work that southern democrats have tried to do on this issue.

Now, I don't know how you can be mad at Edwards when Dean himself, several times, said that Edwards made it clear to him what the dynamics were that he in fact didn't understand them, and that he appreciated the perspective Edwards gave him.

And this raises another whack part of this whole story. In the first debate after the "for" flag waivers comment, Edwards and Sharpton both took a few minutes to talk to Dean about this -- Edwards from the perspective a a white southern politician who witnessed the disenfranchisement of Gant voters by the Helms machine, and Sharpton from the perspective of a black man.

Dean went WAY out of his way to tell the press dozens of times over the next couple days that it was Edwards who showed him the light on this issue. He couldn't talk about the flag issue without mentioning Edwards's name. But what about Sharpton? Why didn't he thank Sharpton for giving him the perspective of a black man? Would it have been so hard to say that that perspective helped him?

I thought it was weird as hell that Dean could only see race issues through they eyes of white men, which was a common theme running through his campaign, including: (1) the "I want to be for the gun rack/confed flag voters", (2) the big ups to Edwards, and (3) Dean's oft-repeated allegory about race where he said that he could understand race discrimination because he witnessed first-hand anti-white male gender discrimination in his office in Burlington.

Dean seemed to go out of his way to say that race was an issue that must be looked at through the eyes of white men, and he reinforced that notion every chance he had.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Dean and race
When Dean went to med school, he requested and got Black roommates, because he understood that he had a limited perspective on race.

How many candidates would do this?

Furthermore, white audiences don't usually hear about race as an issue they should be concerned about, because candidates usually tailor their remarks to the audience they are speaking to.

And as far as Edwards' "yankee-go-home" slant, seems like slavery and Jim Crow would still be the law of the land if Yankees hadn't come down and set the Southerners straight. Am I wrong about this?

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It wasn't med school, it was college.
He also taught in a school in New Haven where I presume there were lots of kids who weren't white. He said that he decided not to do that for a living because it was too hard. Instead he went to Aspen.

When talking about race in his stump speech I wondered why he didn't talk more about race from those two perspectives and instead talked about hiring white men in his office in Burlington.

As for yankee-go-home, I think the point was that Souther Democrats are fighting the battle against racism every day (Edwards himself was keeping the SC boycott, which Dean wasn't doing at first (and I don't know if he ever did it)). Edwards was saying that Dean saying that he wanted to be the candidate FOR those people was making it harder for everyone else was trying to make those ranks smaller.

And again with the "tailoring for the audiences" -- that's just not even true. In this race this year every Democrat talked about race every chance they had. No candidate had different messages for different audiences, and many many democrats had talked to white audiences about race over the years.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What Edwards said was inexcusable.
You have stumbled all over your own words, and you still can not excuse what he said. I am a Southerner, a life long one, and Edwards statement offended me much than than what Howard Dean said.

This is tiresome.

One person gets up the courage to try to bridge a gap, then suddenly all the others decide he is wrong...humiliate him, and force an apology, then pay for the damn Confederate flag demonstrations.

Oh, who had the flag draped across the table at the Iowa dinner.Wanna go there?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Then why did Dean say he was right?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You continue this foolish argument on your own now.
I don't need to help you.

This is what is wrong with our country now. The sniping of the GOP against the Democrats is not really any worse than the sniping of the Democrats against each other.

And what is going on here at DU in relation to the South is heartbreaking.

You argue with yourself now.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't still take this seriously.
I believe it was important during the primaries, and if other people are going to insist on talking about Dean and race, I'm going to repeat what I said before.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Dean also got kudos from The Black Commentator for trying...
to address the issue. They were highly pleased that someone was trying to make the effort. Some are making it sound like Dean offended the blacks, yet the ones in the crowd gave him an ovation...and this website praised him.. The tragedy is that it was mainly his party and now a Democratic forum using it against him. Sad.

"Dean Makes Political Racial History.
To distract people from their real agenda, they run elections based on race, dividing us, instead of uniting us."

http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

SNIP.."Howard Dean has taken history in his hands by hitching his ascendant campaign to a straightforward, anti-corporate message that does not pander to white racism. He presents whites in the South and elsewhere with the only principled choice they should be offered: to vote their interests, or vote for their bosses’ interests (if they are lucky enough to have a job). Although corporate media called Dean’s statement his “southern strategy,” it is in fact the only position that holds out any hope for a national Democratic victory in 2004 – whether enough southern whites emerge from their racist “false consciousness” or not.

The December 7 speech is a clear and definitive break from the lethal grip of the Democratic Leadership Council, the southern-born, corporate-mouthpiece faction of the party. The DLC’s favored presidential candidate is Senator Joe Lieberman, its most illustrious personality is Bill Clinton, and its most prestigious founding member is none other than – Al Gore.

Gore’s endorsement of Dean should be viewed as head-swiveling proof of the bankruptcy of the DLC’s white “swing voter” strategy. The DLC-Emeritus has effectively jumped ship...."

Those sentiments spring from the Black Political Consensus. Howard Dean is attempting to get the Democratic Party – and himself – in step. That’s how history is made. With absolute certainty that the corporate media have thoroughly misreported, mangled and incompetently framed Howard Dean’s December 7 speech, we have republished it in full, below.

From the Official Howard Dean Weblog, December 7, 2003

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002565.html

Restoring the American Community

When unfair attacks are made, I will continue to defend them fairly. Why? Not because I "worship" Howard Dean, as some mockingly say. It is because he tried. No one else has even tried. And someday he will get credit for trying, that is if his own Democrats don't do him in first.



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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. "I think I made a mistake"
"I apologize for it. It's time to move on."

--Howard Dean

Dean: "I apologize" for flag remark


“That was an apology,” Dean told The Associated Press. “You heard it from me. It was a remark that inflicted a lot of pain on people for whom the flag of the Confederacy is a painful symbol of racism and slavery.”

Dean apologizes for flag comment
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Holy crap! A politician who amits making a mistake!
Dego Han, Legolas! Dego Han!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. The Democrats forced him to apologize, no one else did.
Here is part of your article:
SNIP.."But he stressed that "we have to have an open dialogue about race in this country."

Dean was lambasted for his remarks in Tuesday night's Rock the Vote forum by other Democratic candidates. (Full story)

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina said, "The last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do." He told Dean the remarks were condescending. "The people I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks," Edwards said.

The Rev. Al Sharpton told Dean: "You are not a bigot, but you appear to be too arrogant to say, 'I'm wrong,' and go on."

Dean didn't apologize for his remarks that night, stressing that his intentions were to bring together races that have been divided by the Republicans since the late 1960s.

On Wednesday, he said he regretted any pain that his comments may have caused to Southern white and African-American voters "in the beginning of this discussion" on race. (Full story)

In his remarks at Cooper Union in New York, he said he didn't condone the use of the Confederate flag and asserted that there is only one flag -- the American flag.

On Thursday, Dean said the regret he expressed was an apology..."

It was the party which forced it. What a damn shame.
The party in which one or more of the candidates paid for the flag rallies against him in NH....but then it is easier to blame him isn't it?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. And the Dems are apologizing for all their stances......
on a woman's right to choose, on civil unions, on not being tough enough on defense....

Always apologizing, forgetting to stand up for things. Be proud of what you believe, said Dean...I am with him on that.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. still flogging this corpse?
jesus!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 09:15 PM
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25. Consensus: The flag demonstrations were ok.
I see a couple understand what I am getting at, but the consensus is that Dean deserved it.

I was watching C-Span today about the election games...I forced myself to watch most of it. Another Democrat paying for the demonstrations is just about equivalent to what went on with those guys on the 3 hour forum today. The political gamesters control elections.

I posted a fair post, made my point, and I got my answer.

I have seen enough this year of politics to sour me completely. I have seen it locally, and I see it online. I see it in the articles I read about what our Democrats are saying about a woman's right to choose now, about pandering to the South, about leaving behind any segment of society that might offend.

I never posted about this flag business before, but it has gotten pretty bad here about the South and prejudice and putting folks down. I think everyone knew about it at the time. Those of us here just did not say that much except when it happened. But this one event,the responses of the candidates to Dean's very fair remarks, and then their paying for him to be hounded throughout NH by the flags, I think this one event shows the most seamy side of it all.
Combine that with C-Span's forum, and it gives one a hopeless feeling.

I guess I just wanted to make a point, and I realize that it is easier to bash than wake up. The post was about a bigger issue than Dean, as most of my posts are if anyone bothers to read them.
We are all losers if actions like this continue and are defended.

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