Should Zell Miller have been purged from the Democratic Party?

[Guaranteed]

The DLC supporters have done some re-framing on this issue. I say let's revisit this classic question.

[cornermouse]

1. HIs voters should have kicked him out.

As long as his voters send him back, we had to put up with him. That's the way this country is supposed to work.

[Guaranteed]

2. Just because he's elected, it doesn't mean he has to be part

of the Democratic Party.

Now, I don't know how, legally, the party would have gone about stripping him of his membership, but again, it would not be contingent on whether or not he gets elected (I don't think).

[cornermouse]

6. And who would you strip of membership next?

At what point or with who would you stop?

[Guaranteed]

11. Where's YOUR threshold?

If Dick Cheney was in our party, would you get rid of HIM?

Personally, I think that when it gets to the point where our representatives clearly WISH they were part of the other party, it's time for them to leave.

[cornermouse]

18. Kerry offended me when he refused to continue

to fight for the election. Should he be stripped from the democratic party?

I'm trying to get you to see where this kind of thinking can take you.

Now that I think about it. Liebermann irritates the heck out of me and I would feel no sorrow if he opted out of the democratic party, but he represents a section of democratic votes/voters who we do need and do not want to dispossess or renounce. Now if he were to change his party affiliation on his own... But stripped? No.

[Guaranteed]

20. You know the difference.

You can look at some of our representatives' voting records, and they vote with the Republicans more than the Democrats. John McCain votes with the Democrats more than some of these people do.

[cornermouse]

24. And they can take them thar voters with them.

Yep. Self-righteousness feels darn good...

[Guaranteed]

25. No, that's not what would happen.

The only people still voting for Democrats are voting for them out of loyalty to the party itself.

If they were wanting to vote for someone who represents Republican policies, they'd vote for a Republican.

Or maybe they'd just vote for the guy with a spine.

Here's what Arianna Huffington said that George Lakoff told her regarding this issue:

"As cognitive psychologist George Lakoff told me: 'Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are.' It unconsciously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right."

That is right on the money.

[cornermouse]

26. Nonsense.

People don't vote democratic out of loyalty to the party. They vote for the person who they think represents their views best.

The pendulum is still swinging. And if you wait, its going to be back on our side.

[Guaranteed]

28. The pendulum doesn't swing on it's own. We have to work at it.

That means we need a solid message (an OPPOSING message), and we need our party members to be behind it.

[Zhade]

65. Damn, Arianna knows what she's talking about.

NT!

[Zhade]

64. Did Lieberman ENDORSE B*SH?

Because Zell did. He endorsed THE OTHER PARTY'S CANDIDATE.

If that doesn't get you kicked out of your party, what does? Killing your party's candidate?

There has to be a line.

[spanone]

67. Easy. Make the threshold Key Note Speaker for the ReThugs.

To me this was totally fucking absurd. They should have kicked his chair across the isle. Literally if not figuratively.

[ogradda]

3. Amen. n/t

[genius]

71. Currently, we need to purge Harry Reid.

[latteromden]

4. Ugh. Usually, I'm all for the "big tent" party stuff, but ZELL

is another story. I have no idea what sane Democrat (or PERSON) would vote for him in the first place.

[cornermouse]

7. I don't know why anyone would vote for him either.

But the fact remains that they did.

[Guaranteed]

10. What about those other Democrats who STILL say that invading

Iraq was the right thing to do? And vote for tax cuts for corporations while the deficit explodes. And against late-term abortions. And gay rights. And for PATRIOT Act II. And against a higher minimum wage?

I could go on.

[rpannier]

31. Yeah, but many of them

didn't write a book blasting the Party, campaign for scrub, vote for scrub, turn their back on the party, etc. You can disagree with some poinys of the Party and still be a member. But, when you pretty much leave the party...You should be purged.

[imenja]

5. he abandoned the party himself

Purging him is redundant. Besides, to carry out a purge that has any meaning, the party would need to be power. Stalin ruled the Soviet Union when he carried out his purges. The Democratic party rules nothing. All this talk of purges is absurd.

[LostInAnomie]

8. If he was so fucking disgusted with our party...

... he should have left on his own. He should have went independent and not used his "democrat" status as a weapon against us. That is what someone with and measure of decency would have done, but I guess that would be expecting too much from that goddamn piece of shit mother fucker.

I seriously something VERY horrible happens to that filthy fucking traitor.

[ogradda]

9. No purging.

Just make the bastard miserable enough he doesn't want to hang around.

[Lerkfish]

12. agreed. No purging, BUT make it clear he is not consistent with

party platform (whatever the hell that is, these days)

[Guaranteed]

13. If you're doing that, why not just get rid of him?

Just to make it quite clear?

[ogradda]

14. Exactly.

We don't have to be nice to or about the jerk:evilgrin:

[imenja]

16. don't you think he's already made that crystal clear?

[imenja]

15. he's not hanging around

He left a while ago. Just because he didn't change the label on his name tag doesn't mean he didn't leave the party. He's voted with the Republicans on virtually everything and endorsed Bush. He took himself out of the party and the Senate.

[BlueWolff]

17. Ol'Zelly boy

Destroyed himself.....He is a buffone.....He will go down in history as just another lying "cracker".

[Leilani]

19. Zell is a pretty unique case.

It's one thing to have some differing opinions on things.

No party can have everyone in total agreement on everything.

But he was a traitor; he mocked, bad-mouthed, & campaigned against his own party.

Purge him? I have no problem with that.

[DistressedAmerican]

21. Zell Miller should have been made to squeel like a pig...

if ya know what I mean.

[Cruzin]

61. No

What do you mean? It is squeal by the way.....

[Mike Niendorff]

22. Well, let's see ...

He endorsed the opposing party's presidential candidate.
He actively campaigned for the opposing party's candidate.
He was a featured speaker at the opposing party's national convention.
At that convention, he openly and ferociously attacked his own party and his own party's presidential candidate.

If that doesn't cross the line, then WHAT DOES?

Zell Miller made common cause with the enemy and tried to make a mockery of his own party. His not-so-subtle message to the rest of America : "see? I can do all this to them and they still won't do a damned thing about it! If they can't jerk the leash on one loudmouth like me, how are they going to handle Osama bin Laden?".

Throw the bum out. On his ass. Now.


MDN

[Guaranteed]

23. That's right.

There are still some in the party doing almost all of that, just in much more subtle ways.

[bettyellen]

34. Exactly, well said!

[LDS Jock]

56. I'm not for purging, but zell is different

and for all the reasons in your post. Great post BTW. There is nothing about him a Democrat.

[wyldwolf]

27. he purged himself

... we didn't have to dirty our hands

[Cruzin]

29. He gave you a wake up call.

Zell is from my state. He is a democrat in the old tradition of southern democrats. I can see where his talking for the other people would ex-pulse him, and perhaps that is correct. However, you are faced with a ton of democrats who think like him down here in the south. Jesus, this man was your glory child when he spoke for Clinton. He was the rising star of the party at that convention. Yet you want to marginalize him now? He is not uber liberal, and that is OK. You flippantly write off someone who a few years ago was giving a speech for the president of the U.S. who was a democrat. Are you planning on eating your own after church?

[Guaranteed]

32. LOL He's not only not "uber liberal," he's a freaking fascist.

The wake up call is that we have to get a real DEMOCRATIC message in order. It didn't take Zell to make me realize that, either, though.

When we start making an argument, the Democrats will come back home.

[Cruzin]

33. Thanks for your response

I am simply saying this. I have no dog in this race. Zell is popular here for a reason. The fact that the republicans have done something that has never been done here <taken GA congress and usurped the power> might want you to make a pause. Democrats owned Georgia since its inception,and in the last few years has lost to republicans. Its not just on federal levels, its state. And if you want to turn a blind eye to Zell, keep doing so. If you think that you can run the US without the South's mentality, have at it. But you are wrong. And as Forrest Gump said so succinctly, "That is all i have to say about that."

[BlueWolff]

36. Zell is POPULAR...YEAH RIGHT

With the confederate CRACKERS and RACISTS.......Zell Miller is an opportunist. He knew he was going down.. so insteasd of sinking he jumped aboard another ship...one that is heading just where he likes it..where there is mucho money and a bunch of "CLOSET CRACKERS" who will pump him up and make him feel like the ol'confederate boy he yearns to be. I am from the south too...I know...Zell is a typical yahoo piece of horse dung who is always bitchin bout somethin...No one said we don't need the south...but there ARE many great people in the south who are OVER this "CLOSET CRACKER" mentality and realize that the Repugs are just pockets for big business money!!

[Cruzin]

58. Actually...

Zell was the Democratic darlin' for many years. Suddenly he is a racist or popular with only racists or "crackers". Please offer up some evidence of this? I thought his address to the Republican party over the top, but does one moment define that man? I do not think so.

[BlueJazz]

75. I'd rather lie down with whorin' Dogs than compromise with a......

...pack of ignorant southern pieces-of-shit who have long forgotten the party that brought them up from the gutter. If it wasn't for the Democrats every one of the working folks in Georgia and other 49 states would be working for the company, buying at the company store and being buried in company graves. They can support walking garbage like Zell all they want to ...but...comprimise?...fuck um... They want to learn the hard way?....They will..

[Guaranteed]

37. Well, just wait until they get a load of Howard Dean. nt

[Ms_Mary]

48. Duels really should make a comeback.

[Cruzin]

59. Now that was funny!!!

[wyldwolf]

70. I'm from GA as well. I'll ignore your first reply to me and reply to this

...simply stated, Zell is no longer popular with Dems in GA.

Yeah, he's still popular here -but with the GOP.

[liberalpragmatist]

73. It's not the same with Zell

It's one thing if he were like a Hagel or McCain like figure among Democrats. Loyal but willing to criticize the party's abandonment of the South in the interests of constructive criticism.

Hell, even if he switched parties, at least it'd show some principle and he'd not be hypocritical.

But no. There is zero evidence that the man made a principled switch. I'll admit I quite like the Zell Miller of 1992 and I believe Georgians when they say he was the state's greatest and most progressive governor in a long time.

But he now claims that "the party left him," which is absurd. Take a look at his positions - he's the one who's suddenly swerved far, far right. It's one thing to be a conservative Democrat, and at least he was loyal in '02, when he campaigned aggressively for Barnes and Cleland, but it looks to me like he saw the Republican ascendancy in Georgia and decided to hitch his horse to Bush even more strongly.

And even if he just quietly endorsed Bush, that would be horrible, but like Chafee, he wouldn't become a hated figure. But no, that's not what he did. He actively campaigned for the Republicans. He slurred a generation of Democratic politicians and pissed on his party on a national audience at the opposition's convention. He launched onto ludicrous right-wing attacks and positioned himself as one of the most extreme right members of the Senate - farther right than many Republicans. And he refused to endorse even Georgia Democrats for office.

There's nothing principled about any of that. I'm all for a big-tent. But Zell does not belong in the big tent. And nobody else decided that - Zell himself decided that. Now, he can live with it.

I link you Jimmy Carter's letter to Zell Miller:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0908-10.htm

To Sen. Zell Miller:

You seem to have forgotten that loyal Democrats elected you as mayor and as state senator. Loyal Democrats, including members of my family and me, elected you as state senator, lieutenant governor and governor. It was a loyal Democrat, Lester Maddox, who assigned you to high positions in the state government when you were out of office. It was a loyal Democrat, Roy Barnes, who appointed you as U.S. senator when you were out of office. By your historically unprecedented disloyalty, you have betrayed our trust.

Great Georgia Democrats who served in the past, including Walter George, Richard Russell, Herman Talmadge and Sam Nunn, disagreed strongly with the policies of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and me, but they remained loyal to the party in which they gained their public office. Other Democrats, because of philosophical differences or the race issue, like Bo Callaway and Strom Thurmond, at least had the decency to become Republicans.

Everyone knows that you were chosen to speak at the Republican National Convention because of your being a "Democrat," and it's quite possible that your rabid speech damaged our party and paid the GOP some transient dividends.

Perhaps more troublesome of all is seeing you adopt an established and very effective Republican campaign technique of destroying the character of opponents by wild and false allegations. The Bush campaign's personal attacks on the character of John McCain in South Carolina in 2000 was a vivid example. The claim that war hero Max Cleland was a disloyal American and an ally of Osama bin Laden should have given you pause, but you have joined in this ploy by your bizarre claims that another war hero, John Kerry, would not defend the security of our nation except with spitballs. (This is the same man whom you described previously as "one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders --- and a good friend.")

I, myself, served in the Navy from 1942 to 1953, and, as president, greatly strengthened our military forces and protected our nation and its interests in every way. I don't believe this warrants your referring to me as a pacifist.

Zell, I have known you for 42 years and have, in the past, respected you as a trustworthy political leader and a personal friend. But now, there are many of us loyal Democrats who feel uncomfortable in seeing that you have chosen the rich over the poor, unilateral pre-emptive war over a strong nation united with others for peace, lies and obfuscation over the truth, and the political technique of personal character assassination as a way to win elections or to garner a few moments of applause. These are not the characteristics of great Democrats whose legacy you and I have inherited.

Sincerely, and with deepest regrets,

Jimmy Carter

[Ms_Mary]

50. A wake up call? I do think some spittle hit me in the eye through the TV

and caught my attention...

Really, I was shocked by his RNC speech and his reaction to reporters afterwards. I saw NOTHING admirable about it. The only people who have expressed support of that to me have been right wing fundamentalists who still think the WMD in Iraq are under that sand and that Sadamm planned 9-11. It doesn't lend much credence.

[rpannier]

30. hell jumped off the ship

don't let him back on.

[Kahuna]

35. "Purge" sounds so McCarthy-esque. Are you kidding me?

:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

38. You're right- that's just how the DLC supporters are framing it. nt

[JohnKleeb]

39. I dont like the word purge

Its amazing to me frankly what has become of him. Ive read about how he was as governor, relatively progressive for a democrat but then when he got chosen to replace the republican senator who died, he moved to the right but even as recently as 2002, Zell was campaigning for Max Cleland against Saxby Chambliss and defending Max. I don't get why he decided to support the GOP, after all he and Max probably are friends, Max and John Kerry are as well, and he saw what they did to Max and what they later did to Kerry, I don't know what he was thinking. I am still confused by a lot of his votes honestly.

[Forkboy]

40. "We should allow neo-con ideology."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Actually I shouldn't laugh...we seem to be on our way there.

[stray cat]

41. Isn't up to the people of Georgia to decide? nt

[Guaranteed]

42. Who's in the Democratic Party?

No.

To be honest with you, I'm not quite sure who it's up to. Probably the DNC members, one way or another.

[ComerPerro]

43. The Republicans wanted us to purge him

It was an election year, and Zell was "speaking his conscience".

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

Had Miller been purged, things would have gotten way out of hand. We would have been portrayed as close-minded and intolerant of opposing views. The Republicans would have let him join, and he would be even more of a Republican hero. They could have used him to prop up their phony, bullshit image of having a "big-tent" platform.

Remember how nauseating the convention was, when they were pretending they were inclusive and tolerant? It only would have been worse had we purged Zell.

Because of the daily brainwasing by Limbaugh and Faux News, a good deal of the country already thinks that liberals are elitist snobs. This would have only made it worse.

[ibegurpard]

44. I'm not sure what kind of options exist for purging someone from the party

But he definitely should have been publicly vilified and barred from the Democratic caucus.

[Cruzin]

57. They did here.

The democratic party ran tons of commercials condemning Zell for his support of the Bush ticket.

[IronLionZion]

45. 5 Southern Democratic Senators were replaced by 5 Republicans

John Kerry failed to win even one Southern state, or Mountain state, and most Midwestern states. Zellout could have kept his seat without even campaigning.

Before any purging goes on we need to address these issues. Why the hell do those people think Democrats are a bunch of snobby urban elitists who are way out of touch with the rest of America? I bet it has nothing to do with gay marriage since Bush and Kerry held the same position.


*sigh* I know this is a very unpopular topic. flame if you must

[w4rma]

46. Because big media portrays them as elitists

just as soon as they are introduced. However Dems who have been in office before the big media takeover and don't have to use big media to introduce themselves are harder to oust through lies.

[CBHagman]

47. Neither of the above, for several reasons.

For starters, I don't care to use the term "purge" in connection with my party. It smacks too much of Stalin, for starters.

Secondly, I don't want to reward Miller's whorish, vindictive, opportunistic behavior with attention.

Thirdly, he's a bitter old man who does not represent the future of anything. Let him die in obscurity.

Granted, the GOP might want to reward him (the more morally disgusting you are, the farther you go with today's Republicans). But he can't take it all with him.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. he purged himself

[IronLionZion]

51. David Duke ran for governor as a Republican

Do you think the Republicans were happy with that? No? Well, he still did it anyway. And he ran for president as a Democrat before that. I doubt either party would be happy with that bastard.

What kind of rules are in place for party labels?

[JohnKleeb]

52. In fact poppy bush disawoded that

and backed Edwin Edwards. Zell was appointed btw by the dem governor of georgia at the time, Ive read how Zell was as governor, nothing like he's become, so it was a shcok sorta, in retrospect I would have appointed John Lewis to that job honestly.

[IronLionZion]

53. Yeah, Zell was very progressive when starting out

on economic issues and even on social issues. He switched to pro-life because most Georgians tend to be pro-life.

Some of his points about ignoring rural voters hold water, but his support for Bush is unconscionable. Same goes for Ed Koch, who disagrees with Bush on everything except defense.

Personally, I'd like to see another Harry Truman or JFK type of Democrat run for president.

I'm sure a lot of Republicans disavowed Duke, but that didn't stop him from running on their party label. What can they do about it?

[JohnKleeb]

54. hell the man was even standing up for Max Cleland in 2002

Of course his support is unexcuable but we shouldn't ingore rural voters. Yeah nothin they could do about it.

[blm]

55. ANY purging says more about the purgers than it does the purgees.

Although Zell sure did test those of us who see a big tent as a positive virtue for the Democrats.

[IndianaGreen]

60. The moment Zell endorsed George Bush for President

he ceased to be a Democrat, or a patriot for that matter!

He should have been stripped of his committee seniority and his credentials for the Dem Convention should have been rescinded. Neither of those things happened!

[struggle4progress]

62. Ya cain't gain nuthin good by pickin on that sick or crazy old man ... eom

[Zhade]

63. Some DLCers probably secretly love the guy.

Hopefully, none here do!

[ulysses]

66. NO!

Zell's a Democrat, and he still voted with us once in a blue moon. And hey, we wouldn't want to scare off the moderates, would we?

(drip, drip...)

[Tinoire]

69. LMAO!

Where have all the Zell Miller defenders gone?
Name changes everyone...
When will they ever learn?

[Blue_Tires]

68. should have happened a long time ago

what exactly IS the process for revoking membership in the party??? Miller's should have been over the moment he stumpted for Bush

[LibDemAlways]

72. I think Zell purged himself

when he supported the chimp and went over to the dark side.

[Dangerman]

74. Hell yeah!