Why the "F" word causes my blood pressure to rise

[F.Gordon]

Fraud

1. It makes the much needed Election Reform a partisan issue. A very partisan issue.

2. When you examine all evidence under the pretext that fraud was committed it distorts the analysis of the evidence and discredits that evidence that may have credibility. The wacky-looney stuff makes everything wacky-looney.

3. It diminishes the incredible work of tens of thousands of Democratic volunteers all over the country that busted their ass working this election cycle. It drowns out all the positive things that happened on election day.

4. The examination of fraud is extremely divisive in its execution. It creates an us vs. them mentality. The Democratic Party is already a thousand legged Blue Monster that tries to walk in 500 different directions.

5. At the very least it damages voter confidence. In some cases it literally destroys voter confidence. The repukes are becoming an incredibly well tuned machine and we don't need anything that makes their job easier.

That said.... I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ohio is a fucking mess. All eyes should be on this State. I don't know what recourse the people of Ohio have regarding Blackwell, but this asshole needs to go.

And, I'm not "over it". I'm actually pumped. I think this election cycle was an incredible learning tool. Yea, I'm a "half-full" kind of guy..... I believe there were some positive things that we can build on and I believe there were some really bad mistakes made that were identified and we can learn from them.

That's it. That's why the word fraud causes my short hairs to flutter wildly and I go off the deep end once in awhile and I end up in the top ten list of DUers on IGNORE.....
:evilgrin:

[Eric J in MN]

1. How do you think Ohio is a "mess?" NT

NT

[F.Gordon]

3. I don't want to hijack one of the few threads I ever start

...by discussing Ohio. You and I both know some or most of what went on in Ohio. We may just look at some of it differently.

[DemoTex]

2. Fucking "A"!

.

[noamnety]

4. Saying the F word doesn't damage voter confidence

Ignoring the F word damages voter confidence.

I heard the republicans use that same spin, whether or not election was stolen, it's important for Kerry to concede quickly and not make a fuss about it, so voters are confident in the system. There's no concern about if the system is secure, only that it appears to be secure.

That's not the sort of democracy that inspires confidence, sorry.

And not examining it diminishes the incredible work all those volunteers did. Why on earth would accepting fraud without unchallenge uplift their work?

[F.Gordon]

5. When you say the F word

You imply guilt before you have the evidence. You've lost the battle to find said evidence by assuming that fraud took place. I just don't think that way.

And....

And not examining it diminishes the incredible work all those volunteers did. Why on earth would accepting fraud without unchallenge uplift their work?

I see threads that ignore the fact that the volunteers were responsible for certain results and place the "statistical evidence" in the Must Be Fraud folder. That bothers me. The fact that we did as well as we did against a massive repuke GOTV machine is never discussed. It must be "fraud".....

[noamnety]

6. sorry, not buying this whole thread

"You've lost the battle to find said evidence by assuming that fraud took place."

Think of Blackwell as a suspect in a murder case. We are implying he's guilty. We have some evidence, we have motive, we have opportunity. And we have several cases of him obstructing the investigation. It's not time to stop accusing him of committing a crime, it's time to push for more evidence.

In this case it's not a matter of fraud or not fraud, it's a matter of how much fraud. Minority vote suppression IS election fraud. We move on from there to find out how much other fraud he committed.

The volunteers did great, and they did it against a questionable GOTV effort. Not massive, questionable. Meaning we are questioning it.

[F.Gordon]

8. I'm not asking you to "buy this whole thread"

You're comfortable using the F word. I am not.

I'd rather focus on how incompetent Blackwell is rather than accusing him of "fraud". It is something that most people could agree with and understand. This is why you don't have the media jumping all over him.

Point out how bad he is as SOS. How terrible he is at doing his job. These are mainstream issues. You can still search for and point out the existing evidence. Just keep the "F" word out unless you can prove it.

[itzamirakul]

7. Because the word "Fraud" makes

your blood pressure rise is really too bad. So I suggest that you ignore all posts that are concerned with the topic.

You surely cannot believe that those of us who DO believe that Fraud was an element in Bush's current position as the "winner" are going to stop believing or discussing "Fraud" because of your blood pressure. There are some among us whose blood pressure rises when we are unable to discuss what bothers us about the election and when we see that the msm is just plain ignoring our concerns. So the knife cuts both ways.

Fortunately for us, DU provides a forum where we can vent our concerns or where we can choose to ignore topics that are disturbing to us. So it is best that you take whatever pills are necessary to control your pressure and just click onto another thread. Good luck with your health. :)

[F.Gordon]

9. I'm more concerned with your health

I'll be fine. But will you? How will you be feeling a year from now when there is still no solid evidence to back up your claim of "fraud"?

[merh]

10. an article that might interest you.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041213/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_recount&cid=536&ncid=536

[F.Gordon]

12. And no where is the word "fraud" used

I saw this before and I'm not sure what's going on with it. Not even going to speculate.

But do you notice how this news story comes across when "fraud" isn't used? It's almost as if FRAUD is this invisible shield that keeps the media away. Keep it real and the media WILL report it. As long as the media associates "fraud" with the waaaayyyy out there fringe element they won't touch ANY relevant story.

[merh]

13. You give the media much more credit than they deserve!

imho :shrug:

[F.Gordon]

15. I guess I do

But we do need them on our side if our ultimate goal is Election Reform and Voter Confidence. We need to be smart and use them as an ally.....not an adversary.

[Nordic]

20. Too late. The media is not on our side

and isn't going to be for the foreseeable future.

It's gotten to the point where we can't give a damn what the msm thinks.

We need to call it like we see it and QUIT WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHERS THINK OF US.

I'm so sick of that timid bullshit, like "oh gosh we don't want to piss of this person or that person or this group or that group"

That's how we got into this position under this ROCK.

So I don't give a RATS ASS what anybody thinks about the F word. If it's FRAUD it's FRAUD. If he STOLE IT, he STOLE IT.

He STOLE it in 2000, why wouldn't he STEAL IT in 2004?

Good God .....

Timid people REALLY piss me the hell off.

[billie_]

24. Right On! n/t

[merh]

26. Only way to get them on our side is to be adversarial, not to them

but to the evil BFEE - we have to get them with their pants down and their lips where they aren't supposed to be.

If fraud is the charge and we have proof, then by god, we use the word we make them the enemy, the crooks, the traitors that they are.

[itzamirakul]

11. I will feel fine as long as

I know that all votes have been counted, the election machines have been checked for hacking and tallies were done properly. I just don't believe in closing my yes and gritting my teeth and blindly following a lousy leadership that did nothing to help win the election and now wants us to just "wait till next time." We need to know for sure what happened and if it WASN'T fraud, well, then we will know that too.

You laid out your case very well in your original post as to why you think we should just go on without checking for fraud. The problem is...I don't agree with you and fortunately, enough others feel the same as I do so that we are proceeding to check the election process.

[F.Gordon]

14. No, we do agree

check the election process. I couldn't agree more. But, if you approach "checking the election process" with the idea that fraud was committed you're not going to get ANY help from the States or the Media.

Keep the "F" word out and you'll be amazed how more successful you can be in getting information.:)

[itzamirakul]

16. The MSM is not going to help us in any way...

shape, form or fashion. We will have to shove proof of fraud right up their arses for them to even write the simplest story that will be buried on page 31 in the lower left hand corner. You see, I DO believe that fraud was involved and I am not afraid or ashamed to say it. If, indeed, I am proven wrong...I will at least have had the satisfaction of saying what I believed and checking to be sure that it either was or was not true. Why should I not have the right of the First Ammendment to say what I feel? And, I am not to proud to admit I am wrong if that proves to be the case.

I'm sort of sick of the oatmeal mush talk the Democrats have been doing. Afraid to call a spade a spade. Like Kerry saying that Bush "misled" the American people instead of coming right out and saying that Bush LIED to the American people.

There is nothing wrong with saying that we suspect fraud if we really do. You say we will get more media help if we do not use the word and I say that we will not get media help no matter what we say or do not say. This "roll-over-and-play-dead" game that some Democrats want us to join in has gotten us nowhere.

I definitely want election reform...but first I want reform within the Democratic Party so that the DLC and other milk-toast segments no longer have a stranglehold on the Party.

[F.Gordon]

18. If the F word yanks your chain, go for it

It's not my place to tell you how to think. I admire anyone who stands by their convictions, but I see many people who seem to use "fraud" as a crutch. An escape. That is not only unproductive it is also self-defeating. The fraud activist movement is completely disorganized.... reminds me of the early days when we had 100's of different progressive groups who only had one thing in common; absolutely nothing. Well, we hated Nixon and were against the Vietnam War.... but from there it went to hell.

And the only way you'll ever accomplish your goal of reforming the Democratic Party is to get local. Get active. I constantly meet people like yourself that have a number of concerns and complaints but when I suggest that they get active..... they usually always become silent.

This goes back to my original F word complaints. Creating this us vs. them thing. We're all in this together. We (hopefully) have all the same concerns. Blaming the "pink tu-tu dems" is a great choir song but it doesn't change a fucking thing and I can tell you that the DLC isn't going away any time soon.

[Nordic]

32. Yeah? No kidding

We're disorganized because we have no leadership. The Democratic Party has left us adrift in the wreckage of the election, and we're all paddling around on our individual pieces of truth we can find floating in the wreck.

And just because we're on DU doesn't mean we're not being active in a local level. That's an odd assumption to make.

And as far as "us versus them" well guess what? The fat-cat cushy Democrat "leadership" with thier monogrammed shirts and their breakfasts with lobbyists has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY LIFE OR MY POLITICAL INTERESTS.

They can go to hell. I want a NEW party, built from the ground up, that represents people, not corporations.

In other words, you have a misguided notion of who is in the "us" category.

[itzamirakul]

37. You are advising me to become active without

knowing whether or not I already am. I can guarantee you that I have been an activist since the 1960s. The only thing that embarrasses me now, is that once the dust settled after the signing of the Civil Rights Bill, I stupidly believed that most of my activist work was done and I could go on to devoting myself to education and the arts and allow the "honest" politicians to do their jobs as long as I continued to vote a straight ticket as any "good" Democrat should do.

Even after Reagan, I believed in the basic honesty of our voting system. And I continued to believe....

It was only following the 2000 election debacle that I realized that things were not as rosy as I had assumed. Being an outspoken person, I do not believe in skirting issues - rather, I prefer to meet them head-on...thus my use of the word "fraud".

You say the DLC won't be going anywhere soon? Perhaps not. But it won't be because an awful lot of us won't be trying to make them less relevant and loosen the stranglehold they have on the Party. They don't need to "go anywhere." They just need to stop being the ONLY group that makes decisions for the Party.

When I hear someone like an Al From, a co-founder of DLC, blame Michael Moore for the ills of the party and say that the party must distance itself from such people...I know that he is out of touch with a lot of us. Michael Moore and other celebrities carried the banner and did the work that the DLC/DNC SHOULD have been doing. When From ignores the diverse base of the party and makes an ignorant, blatantly racist statement such as, "The Party must go after more white men," I know that the DLC will never again get my support. I know that as long as they continue to be Republican-Lite, they are wrong for me. And I think there are a lot of people who feel the same way. I think Al From owes the entire Party an apology for such statements - not that I expect one.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

22. On the whole, I agree

However, given the glaring inconsistencies in the Ohio results, the 'f' word, I think, was inevitable. I agree with you that there must be evidence and without it, this issue hurts all involved, including the issue itself.

After some research, I don't believe major e-voting machine hacking occurred (at least in Ohio) as this would have required tampering with each machine which would have required at least tampering with machines in the larger metropolitan areas -- and tampering with many, many more machines in suburban or rural areas. This much effort and requisite labor seems unlikely.

But, given the long and infamous history of election rigging and voter suppression in this country (I know, I am from Louisiana, who I believe published the manual), I think this is a valuable issue for investigation and debate. This is a non-partisan issue that I think could provide the Democrats some press traction if they would get behind it -- and they wouldn't need to cry fraud to obtain said traction. All they would need to prove is what actually happened -- all make and manner of minority voter suppression.

I will say that given the fallout from a proven case of fraud -- the sexy quotient of this issue rises dramatically. And, if there is anyone who has the background knowledge to prove e-voting fraud, it is Cliff Arnebeck and Ronnie Dugger. They have been studying the problems with these machines for years. So, given the scandal potential, I like this issue. I just wish that it was the Republicans who had the burden of proof. <smile>

Best,
Not_Without_A_Fight

[F.Gordon]

29. There always will be problems with elections

And E-Voting is going to be the way of the future. So, I'm guessing that "fraud" will be around for a long time as well.

As our population increases E-Voting will be seen as the only remedy. Also, we live in this fast-food - 24 news - we want it NOW culture and E-Voting will feed that.

"Fraud" has been no different. It too has been fed by this same "fast-food" culture. Screw the evidence. Screw the fact checking. Screw the investigating. It's fraud I tell ya...FRAUD!!!

I've been avoiding the minority vote supression issue because it goes back to my original post regarding voter confidence. And you are correct. We don't have to use the F word. Just point out everything that really went on. I'd rather use that ammunition for other purposes that will give us traction. There must be wholesale changes in Ohio and we need to stay focused on the real problems that went on. If not...then nothing will change.

[jdots]

17. I won't ignore you

you make a good point,we live in a country that is told to distrust anyone who thinks across the edge of snappy patter not going for applause.If we are so smart,why don't we get smart and beat these shit heels at thier own game of changing the language to suit thier crappy plans.Now the word fraud is in thier little book of turned around semantics.What it should be called is un-American vote tampering or something that rings thier bell.

[F.Gordon]

19. "Voter Confidence"

No one can be against "voter confidence". If we frame the investigation as a means to promote "voter confidence" we take away the bullshit that the repukes throw at us. The F word just gives them a means to minimize the effort and declare the entire Election Reform movement as some crackpot liberal fringe issue.

[Nordic]

21. they'll call us crackpots no matter what we do

Hell, you can call George Bush a liar, which is most demonstrably is, and they'll call you one of those "HATE FILLED" Democrats.

So who gives a fuck what they think or what they say? I sure don't. I only care about the truth.

[sandnsea]

27. That is MUCH better

I agree with your OP. The word fraud has driven me wild too. You put any populated state under a microscope, you're going to turn up with Florida or Ohio and I don't care who is in charge. Voting is a mess all over this country and "voter confidence" would get us a lot further than fraud.

[Nordic]

23. The "T" word makes my blood pressure rise --

Timidity.

Nothing pisses me off more than timid democrats

[noamnety]

25. (Or people posing as timid democrats)

9/11 was a fraud.
The Iraq war is a fraud.
The Clean Air Act was a fraud.
WMD's, yellow cake uranium, frauds.
No civilian deaths? A fraud.
First responder funding? a fraud.
Social Security reform? NCLB funding? Medicare funding?

The entire last four years has been a fraud.

The election is no different. Locking away the poll books which the public is legally allowed access to is not incompetence. Telling people who didn't receive their absentee ballots that they can't vote provisional ballots isn't incompetence. Withholding voting machines only in the black neighborhoods isn't incompetence. Throwing away registrations because you don't like the paper they are printed on is not incompetence. It's a deliberate effort to disenfranchise people. That's not incompetence, it's election fraud.

You may as well get used to the word.

And you can forget that "we're all in this together" garbage. The people that are trying to take away my access to birth control are not in this with me, the people trying to take away health care for gay people are not in this with me, the people changing the regulations to allow raw untreated sewage, arsenic, mercury, lead and PCBs in my drinking water are not "in this with me." They are stomping on our rights and permanently damaging my health and my daughter's. They are happily pocketing their tax cuts while telling the people who can't afford health care to suck it up. They are in this against me, not with me. I'm not going to greet them with flowers.

[F.Gordon]

28. Like I said

It creates an us vs. them mentality. And I'm not talking Democrats vs. Repukes. It's internal.

Tell me. Why has the media ignored this.....

Locking away the poll books which the public is legally allowed access to is not incompetence. Telling people who didn't receive their absentee ballots that they can't vote provisional ballots isn't incompetence. Withholding voting machines only in the black neighborhoods isn't incompetence. Throwing away registrations because you don't like the paper they are printed on is not incompetence. It's a deliberate effort to disenfranchise people. That's not incompetence, it's election fraud.

The first response from everyone is that the media is against us... that the right wing controls it. Bullshit. It's because they can't to any real story because the 1000 different activist groups prevent them from getting to the story. Much of the "evidence" I've seen on Election Fraud has been fabricated or pushed. You need to go back and read my original post. The wacky-looney stuff makes everything wacky-looney.

You point out what the bush administration has done to this country. I'm certainly aware of it. Maybe more than you are.

Has anything changed? No. You (and I'm guessing the person I have on ignore) choose to hang onto "election fraud" like a security blanket. It gives you comfort and a place to direct your anger. I understand that but I don't agree with it. Read my original post...

[Nordic]

31. give me one good instance of the media doing its job in these topics:

Iraq WMD's.

Civilian deaths in Iraq.

The Jennifer Lynch story.

George Bush's anti-environmental laws.

Firemen finding blackboxes in the 9/11 rubble.

Wounded soldiers from Iraq.

Voter suppression in ohio that is DOCUMENTED that happened prior to the election.

The Plame investigation.

Swift Boat veterans for Lies.

The list goes on and on. If you think the media will help us, you are living in a fantasy world. The media is lock-stock-and-barrel owned by the right-wing corporations.

The sooner you realize this the better. To think otherwise is delusional.

[Nordic]

30. couldn't have said it better myself

they're at war with us, so we're at war with them. Get used to it.

How many black eyes do you have to take before you quit blaming yourself?

[saracat]

33. Arnebeck said he is going to prove "fraud". That is the basis of the suit.

[Junkdrawer]

34. Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud ...

Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud

Say, how's that blood pressure?

Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud
Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud Fraud

:evilgrin:

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. You're not on my ignore list and won't be.

;) I've never put anyone on ignore. Anyway....GREAT post! I agree. Blackwell needs to go. I get the feeling he has been told to do anything he wishes to stop the recount procedure from going forward "smoothly." He acts so damn cocky and arrogant. It makes me believe SOMEONE, *ahem*...KKKRove, has told him, "we've got your back, do your thing." His behavior is blatantly divisive.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

36. F. Gordon = Here's evidence to make your blood boil...

Ukraine Election Nov 21, 2004

"Official results":
Yanukovich 49.46%, Yushchenko 46.61%

Exit poll results (2nd/final exit poll):
Yanukovich 45.4% vs. Yushchenko 49.4%

Unexplained shift =
Yanukovich +4.1%
Yushchenko -2.8%

****
US Election, November 2, 2004:

Ohio's "official" results:

Bush 51.0%, Kerry 48.5%

6pm (final) Exit poll results:

Bush 47.9% vs. Kerry 52.1%

Unexplained shift =
Bush +3.9%
Kerry -3.6%

*****

In the Ukraine the election was ruled Fradulent based on the exit poll variance. But because "It Can't Happen Here" in the U.S. the mass media has rendered the US election legitimate. However, please do not insult anyone's intelligence by suggesting a "lack of evidence" - when anyone paying attentin here on this unfiltered forum has read plenty of EVIDENCE over the past 5 weeks, for example:

"Was the 2004 Election Honest? An Examinaition of Uncorrected Exit Poll Data"
http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf

"As much as we can say in social science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepencies between the predicted and actual vote counts in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error." (ie. 662,000 to 1 odds re OH, FL and PA exit polls vs. reported vote tallies)


Despite the cognitive dissonance - It Can Happen Here and It Did Happen Here. My blood is boiling too b/c empirically speaking with a 95% or 99% confidence level - The 2004 Election Was Stolen - via systemic election fraud. The publicly known security flaws in the e-Voting machines make this a very easy possability for only "moderately" skilled computer hacks/operatives.

How to Hack the Vote: the Short Version
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

Despite the ongoing silence of our five treasonous corporate media conglomerates, These are the facts. My opinion? "Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

****

Here's some info:

Ukraine: Exit Polls Didn't Match Results. Conclusion, Vote Fraud
http://indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=2669&category_id=44

[rman]

38. you bet it's partisan

> Fraud

> 1. It makes the much needed Election Reform a partisan issue. A very partisan issue.

Fraud in this case means there are a lot of indicators that there was fraud. There is a whole lot of evidence pointing in that direction, at least as much as in the Ukraine. Normally this would warrant thourough investigation. Republicans don't want this investigated - you bet it is a partisan issue.

> 2. When you examine all evidence under the pretext that fraud was committed it distorts the analysis of the evidence and discredits that evidence that may have credibility. The wacky-looney stuff makes everything wacky-looney.

Who is examining the evidence under the *pretext* that fraud was committed? Like i said, there is a lot of evidence indicating that there was fraud. It's not evidence that there was no fraud - the only evidence of no fraud would be absence of evidence that there was fraud. There seems to be a whole lot of smoke and we'd like for some professional firemen to find the cause. Maybe there is no fire, but it doesn't look good. That is not "pretext" nor wacky-loony, it's common sense.

> 3. It diminishes the incredible work of tens of thousands of Democratic volunteers all over the country that busted their ass working this election cycle. It drowns out all the positive things that happened on election day.

It doesn't diminish any such thing. In part thanks to the election Dems grassroots is in revival and it isn't going to go away. The fact that a lot of positive things happened that day is no reason not to mention fraud, if there's so much evidence for it.

> 4. The examination of fraud is extremely divisive in its execution. It creates an us vs. them mentality. The Democratic Party is already a thousand legged Blue Monster that tries to walk in 500 different directions.

Right. So, you'd rather not have it investigated, not because there's no evidence but because it would be divisive? Just so that we have that clear.

> 5. At the very least it damages voter confidence. In some cases it literally destroys voter confidence. The repukes are becoming an incredibly well tuned machine and we don't need anything that makes their job easier.

You're darn right it damages voter confidence. That's what you get from privitization of elections.

> Ohio is a fucking mess.

You don't say. What's your explanation if you think it wasn't fraud?

> And, I'm not "over it". I'm actually pumped. I think this election cycle was an incredible learning tool. Yea, I'm a "half-full" kind of guy..... I believe there were some positive things that we can build on and I believe there were some really bad mistakes made that were identified and we can learn from them.

Indeed. Allowing the system to be rigged is one of those mistakes, which needs to be corrected. For starters, let's call a spade a spade. Not mentioning it isn't going to help.

[m berst]

39. you are on to something

Somehow the issue of fraud has become a divisive issue. I think that both sides of the debate are off slightly and that there is no reason for it to be an us versus them situation.

I think that the election was stolen. However, I don't think that is the sole nor the main concern.

It isn't that they stole the election, it is why they stole the election that is the concern. They stole the election in order to steal the government. As alarming as that is, that isn't the entire concern, rather we should be concerned with why they are stealing the government.

They are stealing the government because they have plans for using it.

And even that is not the entire concern. It is what they are planning on using the government to do that we should be concerned with. What they are planning to do is going to be horrendous, what none of us will be able to escape that. This makes "get over it" an impossibility and an illusion. On the other hand, focusing solely on the election and screaming fraud, while justifiable, is pathetically incomplete and inadequate as a response. Worse yet, it is causing division at the very time we need to build solidarity.

So one side of the debate - the "get over it" side - is an illusion and an impossibility.

The other side - the fraud side - is inadequate and incomplete.

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. That makes for the perfect unresolvable and perpetual argument, the only result of which will be weakness and acrimony.

[F.Gordon]

40. As are you

At least you latched on one of my points. I'm not sure if a common ground can be established that unites everyone. It's funny. I've had this "discussion" before on DU. I always thought that being liberal... progressive meant compromising and working for the good of all people. All people.

You are right. This is a debate that won't be resolved. Come next January when Kerry's Moving Van doesn't pull up to the White House we'll see it get even worst.

The sad thing is that the repukes probably already have a solid game plan established for 2006 and 2008. And the Democrats? Who knows?