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I don't get why people keep saying the Dems are "dead"

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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:08 AM
Original message
I don't get why people keep saying the Dems are "dead"
They won in '92, '96, the popular vote in 2000 and came damn close in 2004. Polls show more people are tolerant of same-sex marriage than ever and also more likely to be pro-choice. The fight is not over and we CAN win again.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think they were refering to Al Frommage
n/t
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Read The Nation
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 02:11 AM by Carolab
Dems are gaining ground, not losing it. We picked up in red states and in the Rockies.

The "dems are dying/dead" meme is more wishful thinking/propaganda from "the dark side" in order to convince the sheeple that they are the ruling party from now on out. Don't believe it. We're stronger now than we have been in decades. Fact. The grassroots movements are major--they are the future of the party.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. They're not dead -- they're being reborn.
Democrats may be flailing about on the national level, but they ARE picking up serious ground in the states -- even in many of the states that went for Bush this time around.

Here is an excellent article analyzing the pickups that Democrats made in Colorado this year, and how it's not just a fluke occurence. It's something that everyone should read.

http://www.alternet.org/election04/20757/

Here is perhaps the best part of the article, IMHO:
The reason local and personal issue messages resonated with the electorate was that the candidates who delivered the messages were entrenched in their communities. Many of the Democratic candidates had limited Democratic Party connections but were well-known for their non-political civic and community activism. As one Republican Sate Senator put it, “I don’t know how you did it, but you’ve got all the ‘go-to guys and gals’ in every community running for office as a Democrat.”
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Cary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Because it's the rightists' ploy to inflict as much damage as possible. .
while they can.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. Because
We lost seats in the senate and congress, and had Bush reelected with a larger percentage of the vote, while our opponents are squeezing the middle class, and appear to be unable to count anyone's money.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. they're idiots

They want us to "show some fight" or something else that helps them over their own deluded misery.

I ridicule them as latent conservatives, defeatists, and ideological irrationalists. It's not nice, but their f-ing lameness and clueless 'I want my Mommie' regressionist cries and miscellaneous dreary stupidity is unbearable.

The Union Army had its contingent of soldiers that endlessly complained and believed the war was going to be lost every other month, considered Bobby Lee invincible, and were always in a hurry during charges to turn back. The others called them "croakers". After Grant's army crushed Lee's out of Richmond and Petersburg, literally on the road to Appomattox where the Army of Northern Virginia is dying of starvation and desertions all around them, one soldier's letter is famously preserved in which he writes 'Even the croakers are admitting that we might win the war now.'

We have our croakers here. No shortage. Some of them are conservative infiltrators and trolls, of course, but most of them are just people who need a rhetorical kick in the pants to get their act back together again.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. How Do You Explain The Fact That Republican's Control The
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 12:46 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
Senate, the House, and the presidency and that four of the most populosus states in the Union have Republican governors and that twenty eight or twenty nine states have Republican governors?


The Army of the Potomac was going in the right direction...


the grammar and spelling sucks but folks will get the point...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. That was very ugly.
I fall in none of those categories, but I see the signs of a dying party.

When all they can do is capitulate to the opposition party, then they are dead. They have no life, no thoughts of their own anymore.

Your post is very typical of the way the party elite love to categorize us.

It is working in a way, because now the Democratic party will be more elite and pious than the GOP. As soon as we take their stances, they abandon them and take ours.

It is freaking circus, and funny as hell now.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. the post was silly as well...
we don't control the House....

we don't control the Senate.....

we don't control the Presidency....


we don't control a majority of state legislatures...


and now another poster below says we are using the wrong metric...

how do you measure political power if not by control of the government apparatus....
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. the problem is the failure of Democratic AND progressive leaders
The problem in the election, for example in Votergate, but also regarding the flipflop spin and other distortions of fact like Matt Bai's article in the Oct 10 NY Times Magazine miscasting Kerry on terrorism. This problem was widespread through the press and the failure was across the board INCLUDING Kerry and the DLC Democrats.

This problem was especially clear in Votergate. Here's something I posted elsewhere, that only got one silly comment asking me what did I myself do about these things (which I answered in some detail). This was a posting in elections 2004 entitled "progressive leaders failed miserably AGAIN in Votergate 2004":

Progressive leaders and organizations, as in Florida 2000, failed MISERABLY to buck the system when they had an obligation to the Constitution to do so. Everybody is so busy covering their rear ends and 'doing the job' for the power hierarchy, that the real job of defending democracy just didn't get done, in two elections in a row.

The solid rule of the Republicans since the mid-80s is due to the Democrats throwing elections (pres 88, 00, and 04) and complex dynamics of the kind described by Walter Karp in his Poli Sci classic, MUST READING FOR ALL INTERESTED IN ESTABLISHING DEMOCRACY IN THE US, "Indispensable Enemies" guiding Bill the Shill Clinton in 1993-4.

To focus on the 2004 CAMPAIGN, no one in the media or the commentariat as well as the Democrats, or the 527s or progressive leaders with visibility or even media "watchdogs" challenged the flimsy flipflop spin on its merits until after the Democratic Convention, and then generally as grudgingly as possible. One late article of interest was Jonathan Chait "The Invention of Flipflop", the cover story of the Oct 18 New Republic (posted Oct 7) where he totally devasted the spin. He then goes on to explain away five months of press silence (since there was virtually nothing in the article that couldn't just about as easily have been highlighted in May) as a function of a media 'herd instict'. If we are going to bring authentic political democracy rather than its pretense to the US, we have to start confronting rather than conforming to the media system of 'justifying the lying'. This even media "watchdogs" like factcheck.org and spinsanity and media matters and the Columbia Journalism fail to do -- basically a pack of hounds that fail to bark when it would get in the way of the program. Generally, the usual suspects of conservatives, or certain permitted issues are raised harmlessly. This is where progressives need to start CHANGING the system, on the web and globally, and the media lockdown of Votergate 2004 begins but only begins to reveal the extent of the problem. Note that major bloggers like Eschaton and Talking Points Memo that were falling over themselves in the Sinclair flap during the campaign were silent about the flipflop spin during those five months and now about Votergate.

After the flipflop spin reached a point of diminishing returns -- with a voter at the second presidential debate pointing out in her question that the MAIN reason her friends didn't want to vote for Kerry was the view of him as 'wishywashy', and he finally pointed out that his position on the Patriot Act had been consistent -- then Matt Bai at the New York Times came out with his cover story about Kerry where he painted Kerry on terrorism PRECISELY and falsely along the lines cast by the Bushies. Kerry had repeatedly called for a massive increase in the special forces to INTENSIFY the struggle with Al Qaeda militarily, but neither the Democrats nor the liberals nor the progressives nor the media "watchdogs" pointed out Bai's distortion, furthered by a juicy soundbite about 'nuisance' from Kerry. (Nuisance is a term of art used by Israeli terrorism experts, which is why Snowcroft also used the term) This Bai distortion was crucial, giving rise to a tsunami of DAILY columns, often magnifying Bai's highbrow demagogy with lowbrow demagogy -- such as Dick Morris "Nuisance Nonsense" (NY Post Oct 12) that went on for weeks and dovetailed with the main theme of the Bush campaign down the final stretch.

The fix was in in the campaign, but the election still had to be stolen to put the Republicans in as getting with the program dictated. (The same happened in 2000). The evidence that Ohio was stolen (see freepress.org on the systematic deprivation of adequate voting machines in overwhelmingly Democratic precincts and its effect, among other issues -- and the stuff now about the Southern Ohio areas where an obscure and underfunded state judge candidate at the bottom of the ballot mysteriously outpolled Kerry by more than 60,000 votes in conservative districts. There are a myriad of other powerful issues that have been locked down in the mainstream media, PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THE COMPELLINGNESS OF THE CLAIMS.

Now where were the progressive leadership? A class action suit should have been filed in Fla 2000 FAST after the election on behalf of disenfranchised black voters in the state. In Ohio, the voting machines class action suit should have been filed surely before the Thanksgiving weekend. BUT WHERE WERE ALL THE VOTING RIGHTS GROUPS? AND WHERE WERE THEY ORGANIZING MASSIVE DEMONSTRATIONS AT THE MEDIA CENTERS ABOUT THE MEDIA LOCKDOWN? Michael Moore claims the election was honestly won. David Corn borrows arguments from a real journalist (Manjoo at Salon.com) to cheerlead the pooh poohing of the claims about the election, then, like the NY Times and others, goes silent on these issues when subsequent investigation substantiates them (like allegations of vote hacking in Florida) big time. (The Vote-hacking theory was challenged on the grounds that these were all Dixiecrat counties in the Panhandle -- but 18 of them were elsewhere in the state. Daytona Beach as Dixiecrat Country? Bev Harris encountered shocking evidence of fraud, being furnished with a phony poll tape and then finding the real one in the garbage. Another issue locked down.)

But where was Jesse Jackson DOING SOMETHING EFFECTIVE then? As in Fla 2000, there was just posturing around and nice sounding statements to keep easily satisfied nondemanding progressives happy. And the organizations of lawyers. And all those 527s that never exposed either the flipflop spin or the systematically exploited Bai distortion. The diagnosis here is that all these people are too busy "doing the job" within a system where the fix is in, and not in REALLY "doing the job" for democracy. There is the attitude of Herman Melville in Bartleby the Scrivener and then there is the approach of real Constitutionalists. Unfortunately, when the system fails, the progressive leaders, who got to their positions by looking more rebellious than they really are, know where the golden parachutes are. And they aren't given out to those who really get in the way of the program, but rather only to those who go on about how it's all "paranoia" or "conspiracy theory" of "tin-foil hat thinking" or "cynicism". These notions are just cultural defense mechanisms that are part of the problem. The problem is that we need AUTHENTIC progressive politics in the US, that determines its own leadership, and that is networked internationally on the web so that our democracy doesn't get s*at down to the Ukraine along with Chernobyl.
(The right approach was no nukes from the start -- but the approach we have benefits the rightwing, and then the ightray ingway. Those are the two "sides" and only by exposing and confronting the evils of our system being palmed off as just a little 'steal-to-win' can we REALLY BEGIN to build an authentic progressive movement for democracy in the US.

TIME TO BEGIN!
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I agree that we need much stronger progressive leaders
I just think the demise of the party has been greatly exaggerated for the most part.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Dems are Dead
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 10:28 AM by Walt Starr
if they continue down the path of corporatism that is pushed by the DLC.

Perfect example: making Roemer the chair of the DNC.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think the Democratic Party is dead (or at least dying)
unless it moves toward the center of politics.

Kerry would have won the election, IMO, if he had dissed Michael Moore and his "Minuteman" description of the insurgents who are killing Americans and Iraqis. Kerry needed a Sister Souljah moment, and he passed on it.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Because the media is pumping that message and so are the rethugs
no one wants to belong to a group of losers, who the Democrats are, supposedly.

In reality we are in striking distance of taking down the thugs if we keep fighing.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. EXACTLY... they keep chanting this but it ain't true
It's more repug propaganda

If we had only 25 million vote for Kerry, THEN I'd worry
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Dems aren't dead, although the last campaign almost killed us
We can never come out of a campaign like the last one, where we're all questioning our own identities. There's nothing wrong with the Democratic Party that a few key changes in leadership can't fix...and we must never again let the same advisors and managers who ran the last campaign ruin another campaign in the future. We should stick to our Democratic ideals and basic platform, because it's right, and we need to stick together and learn from this last blunder we made on how NOT to run a campaign.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because "they" assess things in the flash of the moment
and not upon reflection and analysis. Additionally, they are using traditional and dated metrics of who has federal power. That trumps everything in the "they" camp. "They" persist in all or nothing thinking which under the mental microscope is flawed in and of itself.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. Its simple
For the last 12 years the number of elected positions held by Democrats has been steadily declining. House seats, Senate seats, governorships, state legislatures, mayorships, you name it. In 1992 Democrats held far more positions than they do today. You can argue about "why" all you want, but it is ridiculous (and dangerous) to deny that by objective measures the Democratic Party is in decline.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. What liberals want....
http://www.pasadenaweekly.com/cityBeat/columnists/guest.html

A Liberal's Final Wish

<snip>

For four years it's been one big all-you-can-eat buffet for the corporations, and now they're coming back for more. Go ahead, you marvelous bastards! Rip out all the trees, pave the beaches, build 12-lane freeways, plunder the treasury, destroy our future. Cook the books, rig elections, pack the courts, hand the regulatory agencies over to fascist maniacs. Invade more countries, declare code red, invoke martial law, and keep going until your oil-sucking exploits kick off a nuclear exchange.

By God (or Diebold), you've earned it. You've hoodwinked the evangelicals. You've threatened the journalists. You've built a propaganda machine and disguised it as a legitimate cable news network. You've used it to force-feed every right wing loon from Ashcroft to Zell down our throats until they began to sound normal. You've used phony government alerts to manipulate the trailer park patriots, and you've dismantled the separation of church and state to the point where the Stars and Stripes represents the anti-choice, fuel-guzzling, homophobic God of the blow-dried televangelists.

<snip>

I know we don't agree. After all, I am a liberal — by your definition, a godless feminist heathen running an abortion clinic in my kitchen and a gay wedding chapel in my garage. Hey, in today's economy, a guy's gotta make a buck. But rest assured that I am no atheist. I know there must be a God. With you in the White House, if there wasn't, we'd surely be dead by now.

So, on behalf of liberals everywhere, and with all the Viagra of progressive thought I can muster, I extend this salute. I offer it with my best wishes and the sincere hope that all who made your victory possible will someday share your deep convictions, both federal and state.



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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. Neither do I
:shrug:
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. Keep in mind a lot of people who post here aren't Dems....
They may be Greens or disaffected Libertarians or even, in very rare cases, Republicans.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. That's true. n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Oh I agree with that
but I bet we're not thinking of the same people.
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Harlan James Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
22. It makes them feel like they're important and have something to say.
Rather than merely being the same old nonentities rehashing the same dumb cosmic claptrap they've been regurgitating for the last 40 years.

The Democratic Party is the best, and only, hope of this country. Those who attack us in the name of some nebulous self-styled "greater morality'" are little more than deluded fools doing the work of reactionaries.

And what is sad about it is they would rather feed the fires of their perpetual indignation than do something that might actually amount o something.
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nevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. We can beat up John Kerry and the Democratic Party
all we want but this election was probably never in our grasp. We lost because of 9/11 and the fear factor. People are not rational when they are scared and there were millions of middle class politically moderate women who thought and still think Bozo Bush will keep them safe. This insane war will bury Bush and the Republicans in the end and if we are organized and TOGETHER we will bounce back big time......and it will start in 2006.
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