Rumsfeld charged in criminal complaint by Germans

[ginnyinWI]

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asp

...and so it begins. The rest of the world is not going to sit by and watch the crimes of Abi Gharaib go uninvestigated.
"It is clear that the US government is not willing to open an investigation into these allegations against these officials."

The White House is spinning this as an attack against the troops, but it is against the Department of Defense. They are going to be taken down, piece by piece, and it starts now.

[madrchsod]

1. we did it to germans after the war

and we still deport old nazi`s from this country. i guess it`s ok for us but not for them....

[htuttle]

17. Let's review some of things we told the Germans at Nuremberg

We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy.

I therefore want to make clear to the American people that we have taken an important step forward in this instrument in fixing individual responsibility of war-mongering, among whatever peoples, as an international crime. We have taken another in recognizing an international accountability for persecutions, exterminations, and crimes against humanity when associated with attacks on the peace of the international order.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/jack02.htm
US Supreme Court Justice Robert L Jackson, Chief Prosecutor, Nuremberg

My, my. Seems we've fallen a bit since then...

[Bono71]

18. Rumsfeld should be made to read this over and over...

while rotting in hell.

[Just Me]

25. Wow! You ought to email that to AEI, PNAC, et al.

,...our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy.

,...step forward in this instrument in fixing individual responsibility of war-mongering, among whatever peoples, as an international crime. We have taken another in recognizing an international accountability for persecutions, exterminations, and crimes against humanity when associated with attacks on the peace of the international order.

WE'VE STEPPED RIGHT INTO THE SHOES OF THOSE WE OPPOSED,...again *sigh*. How can any American citizen NOT understand why anti-Americanism exists? Oh, yeah,...they're either too busy, too ignorant, too brainwashed or too unconcerned to spend any energy acquiring an understanding of reality.

[leftofcool]

2. Be sure to fill out the action alert

N/T

[katinmn]

11. Sent. the alert. This is a horrible black mark on the U.S.

that will take decades to recover from. I hope to see more pressure from other countries.

[jeff30997]

3. I always thought that Rumsfeld...

Would be a great name for a villain in a WW2 movie about a concentration camp.

[cliss]

14. An interesting factoid....

Donald RumsFailed is German. I guess there's a whole village full of relatives (lots of Rumsfelds' there). They were very outspoken before the war in Iraq. They were hoping he wouldn't push for war.

Interesting that Germany would be prosecuting one of their own.....

[passy]

27. Played by Christopher Walken I guess?

[louis-t]

31. Naw, ye need somebody with

reeeel squinty eyes.

[xchrom]

4. optimistic -- not realistic

nothing will touch rumsfeld -- other than he might be miffed that somebody questions him.
america will -- and that's not just republicans -- will never allow one of their own convicted of a damn thing in a foreign court.

[forgethell]

15. You've got that right.

No country can allow its leaders to have their policy decisions subjected to criminal charges in a court of another country. That's why you only see war crimes trials when one side has had the bad fortune to lose a war.

I know a lot of people think this is a good thing, maybe it is as far as getting the facts out. But Germany will regret it, shortly. After all, Belgium backed down, and Germany will, too.

[Sterling]

44. With the whole world lining up against us don't count your chickens.

I say all bets are off with these maniacs in charge. They are actually stupid and greedy enough to think we can take on the whole world at the same time.

I doubt Rummy will live long enough to see the hang mens rope. I also think it is obvious that the world is looking at us in a much different light than it did just a few years ago. Not just our traditional enemies but now our allies question the legality and legitimacy of our policies. Now it is to the point their courts are actually considering war crimes charges against us. This kind of thing always signals the beginning of the end for criminal regimes.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. I agree that this will not lead to a conviction.

However, I can't help but wonder if the wave or criticism directed at him from the Whitehouse has something to do with this. Politicians know that some of this mud is going to stick. They want to put distance between them before it smears on them, too.

I think Rummy had best be careful of what he says and does these days. It’s a short walk from glory to the sacrificial altar.

[tsuki]

28. Any lawyers out there? If I am not mistaken, Germany is one of the

few countries where you can be tried in absentia and convicted. Then it would not be a matter of "letting."

[zann725]

39. I'm not an attorney, but I've heard that's why they filed in Germany...

because he doesn't have to be in-country for the prosecution to begin.

[Dover]

5. He may be charged but what can they actually DO about their findings?

We know he and others are guilty, but we can't even enforce the laws in our own country against these criminals. How does Germany propose to do it?

It would be good to have it on record if and when the Bushies no longer have the power to thwart our laws. Then these issues can be legally addressed. But then again......Kissinger is still walking around free so maybe we shouldn't hold our breath. And many of the current misadministration had a hand in the Iran Contra crimes among other things and yet nothing was done then either.

[daleo]

10. It is doubtful that this will go very far, but it is better than nothing

I imagine it will be short circuited somewhere along the process. But, even some small harassment of the likes of Rumsfeld is better than nothing. And I think they are sensitive about their reputation, and "place in history", so every little bit helps. If it makes just one future war criminal think twice...

[zann725]

41. As our economy and dollar value decreases, we become less formidable

...so it may not be that far-fetched.

[cliss]

42. Good point! These guys really do feel that

they've secured their place in history ......

they just don't know WHAT history.

Remember when Paul Wolfowitz said that "the children will be singing songs about us in the future", and "history books will be written about this".

They will be singing all right, but Paul may be a little surprised. It might be chanting rather than singing.

I think you're right that they are sensitive about their reputation. Any little bit to rattle that illusion is good.

[ginnyinWI]

12. the American public

will be interested in this if/when they become aware of it. Democrats should make sure this gets attention. It will be one more thing to add to the pile and push this administration over the edge.

The first thing I thought when I read about this in "The Nation" is that it explains McCain and others making statements against Rumsfeld this weekend. I think they want the Bush regime out, or at least to distance themselves from them, and Rumsfeld is the weakest link, the one to begin with. We know Bush won't fire him, so he will have to suffer with it.

I don't know, maybe I'm just remembering Watergate, but it seems that some combination of things has got to "do them in" sooner or later.

[Fovea]

6. What delicious irony

Really, the PNAC RICO gang has brought America's standing in the community of nations to the point where the Germans, history and all, do this.

If anyone has the moral authority in this situation, it is the Germans, IMO, and more power to them.

They may not be in Iraq, but they may have to be by the time Rove/Cheney/Rumsfeld are done. It is vitally in their interest to show the Iraqis and foreign Islamists that they are honest brokers.

Abu Ghraib is going to be the thing that really harms America in the world of diplomacy. And not just diplomacy, the image of America as Banana Republic, with stolen elections, and subverted due process, will so undermine the stability of American interests overseas, that boycotts alone could collapse our balance of trade.
In a non-criminal government, Gonzales would already be heading to Leavenworth, for a long paid vacation, along with most of the senior ** administration.

We are already at war economically. Russia is going to end run us in the east with oil and nat gas, and they will use the nationalized income to surpass us economically. We will be fighting another arms race, while being isolated from our former trading partners.

Any clue how ** is going to manage that?
War Capitalism, that's how.

[texpatriot2004]

9. Well said RealPolitik, isn't it interesting how things have come

full circle?

Our reputation is trash now and it will only get worse.

War Capitalism isn't working now...but I am sure that won't stop him/them from proceeding with it.

[Just Me]

26. The Germans learned from history. The "PNAC RICO" did too,...

,...in terms of profiteering from war and power.

Great post.

These guys have, indeed, incited another round of global military and economic violence.

[passy]

29. Not to forget China.

While the US uses 100s of Billions on a useless war, China is booming economically. A few more years of war and the US will be in deep s**t, the world economy is so fragile now that a 2nd great depression is likely.
You can't line the pockets of your rich friends for very long when all they do is accumulate money that does nothing.
If the people get poorer who is gonna buy all these nice American products, no one, they'll buy the cheap Chinese made ones and help to increase the balance deficit.
But hey who cares everyone will still have cheap petrol stolen from the Iraqis for all those useless SUVs.

[Anakin Skywalker]

33. And Don't Forget this!

Gays still aren't allowed to marry! The world is still a rosey place afterall!

Sickening, isn't it?

[passy]

34. That's the biggest issue on your mind? Seriously?

[Anakin Skywalker]

35. *sigh* Our paths haven't crossed, I see.

I was being sarcastic like your last sentence about SUVs. Rethugs are obsessed with gays (and some other stuffs), see? They don't give a damn that they have no jobs or that other things in their lives suck.

What do you think I am, a Freeper?

[passy]

36. Irony and sarcasm are hard to translate when typed.

The SUV comment wasn't that sarcatic though.

[Anakin Skywalker]

37. I Know.

Have encountered situations like this before on other chat rooms/message boards. :)

I was mocking red staters.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. I think the Europeans are a little PO'd at the US right now

W's fiscal policies are hurting their economy big time.

Unlike of our DOJ, they have been doing their own investigations into this criminal cabal and some of it may come to fruit soon.

[merh]

8. I wish the French would go ahead and indict cheney

for his involvement in the Halliburton bribery scandal in Nigeria.
Let all international governments indict the bastards, make them have to answer to the world for their crimes. They certainly are not answering to the citizens of the USofA.

[texpatriot2004]

20. I wish they would too. n/t

[zann725]

38. I think that's the only way it can happen. They've rigged the courts here

And most of the world said they preferred Kerry instead of Bush for President. They have the power to make it happen. They just have to find the courage and momentum to do so.

[Swamp Rat]

13. PNAC = 21st Century Nazis

[texpatriot2004]

21. Man that's a scary image...yuck but cool. n/t

[Kellanved]

16. no, that is not the case

1. He was not formally charged
2. A complaint was filed with the Federal Prosecutor General's office
3. That notice was filed by a New York based group
4. It has about the chances of a snowflake in hell to turn into an actual charge
5.Even if the Prosecutor should do so (he won't) the court would almost certainly not accept it anyway.

6) Hardly LBN.

[neweurope]

19. All true! BUT

I don't think that the New York group ever really thought he would be convicted. I see it as a PR-thing. And it certainly has gotten attention. Wish there were more actions like this one! Most people over here have no idea what's going on in your country right now. Mainly because the big news channels are in US-hands. But stuff like this makes the news.

[Vidar]

23. Deutschland uber alles. Bless the Germans.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Und die Nazi Amerikaner!

[neweurope]

30. Not "ueber alles". WITH All :)

The "ueber alles" we have hopefully left behind us forever :)

[Vidar]

40. Good point. Deutshland mit alles. German is very rusty.

[VegasWolf]

32. Hey, the Germans certainly know a Nazi when they see one.n/t

[SidDithers]

43. Germans? Don't mention the war...

So that'll be eggs mayonaise, 2 prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goerring, and 4 Colditz salads.

Sorry, Basil Fawlty flashback for a sec.

Sid

[Moderator]

45. not Late Breaking News

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1029935