Boy Scouts vs. ACLU

[carrowsboy]

(in my local paper)

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779723324&path=%21editorials%21letters&s=1045855935005

Scouting Instills Many Values
Editor, Times-Dispatch: I am a 12-year-old Boy Scout and I have been in Scouts since I was 6 years old. When I read about the ACLU bringing a lawsuit against the BSA, I was disgusted. The ACLU says that the Boy Scouts discriminate because they require members to believe in God, and the Pentagon has been asked not to sponsor Boy Scout troops.

I began Scouting as a Tiger Cub and have advanced all the way to a Star Scout. There is a lot more to Scouting than religion. Boy Scouts do so much for our community. We participate in Scouting for Food every year, we help clean up hurricane debris, and we improve the community by doing Eagle projects. Scouting has helped me personally to set goals and to develop a positive lifestyle. I have learned how to set goals for my grades, and have explored many new skills and hobbies by earning merit badges.

The Constitution says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, but Boy Scouts welcome all faiths. It's not a Christian-only group, and doesn't force anyone to believe in any certain religion. It just requires one to believe in a God. With all the bad press about today's youth, the government should appreciate what the BSA is doing and be able to support it.

On my path to Eagle Scout, I try every day to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. I am excited to go to the Jamboree this summer, where I can meet tens of thousands of Scouts of all faiths. The ACLU should be celebrating what Scouting is all about. Cody Corbelli. richmond.

[Somawas]

1. discriminatory, homophobic little rat bastards!

Maybe if they'll give up some of that I'll like them again.

[Eric J in MN]

2. But if you want to create a club for people

who have certain beliefs, isn't that your right?

[iamjoy]

3. This Is The Debate

If I want to open a restaurant & refuse to serve Arab Americans, is that my right?

What about organizations that receive federal funding?

Is it freedom OF relgiion, or freedom FROM religion?

[Eric J in MN]

14. A restaurant is a business, but a club isn't neccesarily a business (nt)

nt

[fujiyama]

15. That's true

but the BSA isn't exactly a completely private entity. It gets a lot of time to fundraise at public schools and is helped by taxpayers.

It's worth asking if our taxes should go toward organizations that have restrictive membership based on their religious beliefs and sexual orientation.

[iamjoy]

19. Yes It Is...................... n/t

[iamjoy]

20. OK - A Club That Serves Food

could a homosexual start such a club and deny membership to straight people?

:P

[Peak_Oil]

5. Yes indeed it is.

If I'm not mistaken, that would mean it's a private club, though. They shouldn't be a public group receiving government funds.

I'm a Freemason. Freemasons require a belief in a god of some kind. They even have a couple Scientologists and at least one Satanist that I've heard of. Not that either one of those two groups actually worships a god of any kind, but I digress.

Anyway, the Freemasons don't take public funds. It's a private group. They meet in their own buildings and pay their own bills. They're not a charity that can give tax deductions for contributions.

If the BSA wants to discriminate on the basis of religion or lack thereof, they're in good company. The Eagles, Moose, Freemasons, Odd Fellows, and I'm sure there are others, require a belief in a god. No problem. That does change the character of the group a bit, though.

Frankly, if it's such a small deal, then why not just drop the requirement? I used to be a boy scout, too. I wouldn't care if the BSA required Protestant Christianity. Who cares? Just so long as that changes the nature of the group and the group wants it that way, it's fine with me.

The Knights of Colombus is an all-Roman Catholic group. So what? They have the right to do that if they want.

[BattyDem]

7. That's what the ACLU was angry about

The Boy Scouts can run their organization any way they please, but they DO require that members take a religious oath and because the Pentagon was sponsoring the Scouts - with public funds - the ACLU got involved.

Anyway, the Pentagon agreed to stop "directly" sponsoring the Scouts. I guess that leaves the door open for "indirect" sponsorship. :eyes:


From the ACLU web site:

Pentagon Agrees to End Direct Sponsorship of Boy Scout Troops in Response to Religious Discrimination Charge

November 15, 2004

CHICAGO - In response to a religious discrimination lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois, the Defense Department today agreed to end direct sponsorship of hundreds of Boy Scout units, which require members to swear religious oaths, on military facilities across the United States and overseas.

"If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based upon religious beliefs," said Adam Schwartz of the ACLU of Illinois. "This agreement removes the Pentagon from direct sponsorship of Scout troops that engage in religious discrimination."

More here

[Pushed To The Left]

6. Yes, but this is a different issue

I think the debate is whether or not a group that practices discrimination should receive government funds.

[Somawas]

10. That's not a debate,

the answer is that it should not.

[Pushed To The Left]

12. I agree. If you practice discrimination

don't expect any government funding. There shouldn't even be a debate, but the conservatives are up in arms!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

13. Yes, every club has that right. But not the right to tax dollars.

In this argument, neither side is suggesting that the Boy Scouts should be disbanded or forced to change. What the ACLU has argued is that the Boy Scout organization should not receive money from the government because Scouting is not open to atheists and is therefore discriminatory on the basis of religious belief. By the policy of the Boy Scouts, this should be very clear: in the past, atheist members who were Eagle Scouts have been expelled from the Boy Scouts for their lack of Deism.

I am not sure that it is true, as the letter-writing-parent of the credited-twelve-year-old asserted, that the Boy Scouts would allow a believer of a non-Judean god or, e.g., a Shintoist. In otherwords, Boy Scouting is a Deist religious club.

Because tax money is collected from everybody, it's wrong to spend it on any specific religion. Otherwise, as an example, money from Christians could be spent on non-Christian religious groups, which would then be a sort of sin for the Christian tax payer. The opposite direction also applies, when the tax money of a non-Christian is spent on a Christian organization. Similarly, there are non-Deist and atheist tax payers. For some of them, supporting a Deist organization might be an offense.

For this reason, the Deist Founders of the United States, who were largely Masons, made certain that the Very First Ammendment of the United States Constitution prohibited the involvement of government in church. The original US government was most likely funded from funds of the US Masonic Lodge to which General Washington subscribed. Masonry is a deistic organization. Yet the Founders felt it was fundamental to divide the government from any activity in such matters.

The Boy Scout organization is on-message but off-morals. Patriotism should require them to stop laying claim to taxed funds.

[Quetzal]

4. So sorry young child

The Boy Scouts deny membership to both homosexuals and atheists.

Atheist Scout Booted from Scouting

Port Orchard, Wash., Nov. 4--Given a week to find a god he can believe in, time has run out on Darrell Lambert. The Eagle Scout says he has been thrown out of the Boy Scouts because his atheist views don't agree with Boy Scout requirements for reverence. Officials at the Chief Seattle Council informed Lambert by phone today that he was no longer welcome.

Late last month, Lambert was given seven to ten days to change his beliefs, and family members said the deadline was extended over the weekend. But Lambert said he had been told his registration was being returned. "Then I'll get a letter saying I am being kicked out," he told Beliefnet.

He plans to appeal. "I'll go to the regional office, and the national after that if I have to," he said. Though he has spoken to lawyers who have handled similar cases, he wasn't sure if he is prepared to go to court to be reinstated.

The Boy Scouts of America require belief in a supreme being to qualify for membership. "You need to have a recognition of a supreme being," Brad Farmer, the Scout executive of the Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts, told the Seattle Times in October. "We as the Boy Scouts do not define what that is, but you need to have a recognition."

more...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/116/story_11619_1.html

[bobedwards]

8. Yeah

Hey everone. I'm new to this forum though I've been reading it for a while. My first post! I'll agree with the carrowsboy on this one. At risk of being flamed, I'll say that I think this group does teach lots of good values about respect, responsibility, and so on. I was once a boy scout, too. I'm more libertarian minded, and think that if people don't like the scouts, why spend so much time trying to change them when we could set up our own version of it? I believe it could become popular and maybe even rival the scouts.

[AllegroRondo]

18. Its not about changing them

If their groups doesnt want to admit atheists or homosexuals, thats their right.

But if they choose to do so, they cannot receive tax money or recruit at public schools.

[bobedwards]

9. Oh yeah...

Forgot to ask, how many replies must we make before we can create our own threads?

[Lexingtonian]

11. cute red herring argument, and probably 'astroturf' LTTE too

Anyone who has been part of the BSA knows what all the code words cited are about.

The BSA is largely funded by various right wing churches, notably the Mormons, and the upper tiers which set the tone in the organization are fellow travelers. It's pretty well documented. Everybody knows what the deal is.

What if this kid wrote a second letter saying "I'm in an organization that is kind of nice for square little boys, but all the money comes from Christian Right church groups that set all the policies and make sure all the Scoutmasters conform to a 'righteous' and whitebread stereotype. And the whole thing is creedal, ceremonial, and psychotherapeutic, as well as intolerant of dissent and diversity representative of the country- just like their churches, which they hope to steer us into. Never mind that Theism is in fact a religious belief system not every sincere person thinks the best one- and it certainly isn't the exclusive source of moral guidance."???

[greenohio]

16. Bad plan to attack the Boy Scouts.

They are abolutely loved here in Ohio. Let them have their stupid rule. We are in no position politcally to take them on.

[noonwitch]

17. I'm glad that we never had these problems in Girl Scouts

Hell, I even had a gay GS leader in Cadet Scouts. She was cool, and took us camping.

Most sex offenses are committed by heterosexual men.