Question about the religious armageddon stuff that's been circulating...

[Krocksice]

Is there any truth to certain religious factions believing that we are supposed to cause armageddon or is this just a sarcastic remark in relation to environmental plundering. If there is truth... can I get some links?

[drhilarius]

1. Here you go...

<http://www.theocracywatch.org/middle_east2.htm>

[Red State Blues]

2. Wow, certainly not just sarcasm.

Don't have any links handy but google "dominionism". They're not the only ones and dominionists come in assorted flavors. I imagine you'll have some links as people start to wake up.

Also look into the strange new alliance between the evangelicals and the zionists and the temple they want to rebuild (and what they have to tear down to do it.)

[blondeatlast]

16. Nice summation of the key factions!

And never forget the entire NeoCon/Radical Right agenda, which is founded around certain factions of dominionism.

[lgardengate]

3. my family is religious conservative...

i was raised that way and i have NEVER heard anyone talk or hint about us causing armageddon or that we even could.The belief is that when it is Gods time it will happen,and that no one can know when it will be.I think the remarks were started by some claiming that by christians voting Bush they were trying to force God into coming back by manipulation.Really,this is never talked about by any christians i know.They do alot we disagree with but really that is going to far.

[Bridget Burke]

5. It really is a new thing.

And it's beyond Conservative, Fundamentalist or Evangelical.

As mentioned before, the Dominionists, Theonomists and/or Christian Reconstructionists are among those who believe the world will end soon. They want to reshape this country & the world into some sick ultra-Calvinist version of the Old Testament so we'll be "ready"--& they will be in control. Some of them are in it for the power--they'll let the sheep believe they're the shepherds, but they're more like wolves.

Tim LaHaye of the "Left Behind" books is one of the leaders. He & his wife are graduates of Bob Jones University. Beverly LaHaye runs "Concerned Women of America" which hosts sites like this: www.cultureandfamily.org/cfi/

Do you see those links about evil Target banning the Salvation Army, evil Liberals trying to steal Christmas, etc.? This is a source of the stories that seduce conservative (but not fanatic) Christians into following them--& the stories get picked up by the media. (Small joke: Some of the roots of this movement go back to the Puritans; they actually revile Christmas as a Popish/Pagan Holiday. But "stealth" tactics are encouraged.)

[izzie]

12. Haven't these people been around for a long time?

Some even sold off every thing and went some place waiting for the end and that happens a lot. I think it is one of the things you have to believe to be a member of some of these Church groups.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Yes, people have always gone up to the mountain....

To wait for God or the Space Aliens or whatever to come & take them away. I heard the year 1000 was a big disappointment to a lot of folks. And the Y2K thing included a touch of millenialism along with the need to review computer systems.

These groups want to remold things to their own desire first. There's a very serious political angle to their plans & they've been quite successful.

[cali]

18. You may be thinking of the Millerites

who in 1844 (pretty sure that's the right date) sold off their belongings and gathered on a hill to await the end of the world. Of course there's nothing new about millenarianism. Originally, the meaning was a narrow definition of Christian eschatology, in the sense of a doctrine that encompassed 'the last days'. The historian Norman Cohn, an expert in the field has defined millenarianism thusly:

Millenarian sects or movements always picture salvation as

(a) collective in the sense that it is to be enjoyed by the faithful as a collectivity.

(b) terrestrial, in the sense that it is to be realized on this earth and not in some other worldly heaven.

(c) imminent, in the sense that it is to come both soon and suddenly.

(d) total, in the sense that it is utterly to transform life on earth, so that the new dispensation will be no mere improvement on the present but perfection itself.

(e) miraculous, in the sense that it is to be accomplished by, or with the help of, supernatural agencies.

And yes, these people have been around for a very long time. Just as humans have a need for creation mythology, so too do they have a need for an end time mythology. Within the framework of certain Christian sects it's become a dominant feature.

[Red State Blues]

22. The difference is the number involved

There always have been a few wingnuts in every organization. Dominionism, pre-millenialism, and post millenialism are not new ideas BUT the level of acceptance into the religious "mainstream" IS new. For that matter, fundamentalism goes in and out of vogue, and the things which are accepted as "fundamental" have surprising fluidity as well.

An aside: I have a very close family member with an Undergrad in Biology and a Masters in a Scientific Field who now doubts evolution (and loves those "Left Behind" books)

[Hekate]

6. I recommend you research the Theocracy Watch website (long post)

Additionally, Google for Dominionism and Christian Reconstructionism. Doing so will lead you to primary sources, i.e. what these folks say about themselves, rather than what others say about them.

When I did that two years ago I damn near had a heart attack. I have near-100% religious-respect credentials, and these folks scared the crap out of me. What I had thought were ideas on the lunatic fringe (see, I told you I'm not 100% in the respect department) turned out to be quite influential and well-funded by at least one billionaire.

Home schooling, as it happens, is a pet project, and providing textbooks that reinforce a certain worldview (that's their business) and that reinvent US history (now, that becomes everybody's business) are key to ensuring that "an army of Christian soldiers will be ready to arise" when they are given the call. Naturally, key to promoting home-schooling is the constant denigration of public schools: the inadequate education they offer, their dreadful immorality, those non-Christian kids and teachers that your kids are forced to associate with, sex education, and needless to say, the money we keep pouring into the school system. Of course, home schooling also depends on Mom staying at home where she belongs, and naturally money should be diverted from the public school budget to support that.

There's more, believe me. Current US laws are sinful and ungodly, and we must revert to Biblical laws in all things. Their theology kind of plays fast and loose with the Old Testament in my opinion, and seems to completely leave out the Sermon on the Mount, but rest assured, witches and homosexuals WILL be put to death when the godly ones come into power.

But wait, there's more! In doing God's will (and they are SO sure they know what that is) we are bringing closer the time of the Rapture. Of course, you say. But you're missing the part where first there will be a thousand years of pure misery on this Earth -- Hell on Earth, one might say -- and I think this is where all the ungodly ones will be either converted or offed by the godly ones. Ecological disaster, global warming, a nuclear winter -- not to worry; any and all of that only hasten the day.

Israel's ancient boundaries MUST be restored, and of course it doesn't matter a bit if this ignites a conflagration in the entire Middle East, because it is all part of God's plan, and Jesus won't come back until it happens. Ditto the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem, never mind that Muslims currently occupy that spot.

I could go on, but it's better if you go read this for yourself. Just a few more comments before I stagger off to bed:

George W. Bush was vetted by Christian Reconstructionists when he decided to run for president. (Google for it.) He went to a secret council (that is, people know it took place, but the doors were closed and no transcripts or outsiders were allowed), explained his personal theology, and apparently received a literal blessing as well as promises of help. Those photos of Bush with a halo? That RNC speech in New York this summer, the one where the podium had a cross worked into the wood like it was a pulpit? That's all for real. He -- and these particular backers--truly believe God put him in office, and they've convinced a whole lot of Evangelicals of it too. That's the explanation for his becoming president after losing the popular vote in 2000. So when Bush talks about "a mandate," he's not talking about the mandate of the people, he's talking about a mandate from God. Thus when George W. Bush says things like "crusade" I listen, and so should all of us. His foreign policy is driven as much by a dangerous theology as by neocon dreams of empire.

Key notions from this movement have entered the mainstream, particularly among Evangelicals--most of whom probably have no idea what the whole package entails. An entire series of End Times books have been written and are selling like hotcakes, further mainstreaming key ideas. (One lonely book has been written from the other point of view: The Handmaid's Tale. The author did her research.)

As a last exercise, start Googling members of the Bush administration and their allies in the Congress, i.e. "Tom DeLay + Christian Reconstructionism."

My whole life I have been very much a live and let live kind of person -- the essence of being Liberal, right? But these folks preach poisonously intolerant attitudes (and eventual behavior) toward everything I believe in, toward people I know and love, and toward me. They are un-American in the truest sense of the word, and they are dangerous. If they were not so influential, I wouldn't care, but they are influential.

I subscribe to two online journals that I recommend for keeping a balanced perspective on Christianity and other religions in America today. One is Sojourner Online (they also have a magazine you can subscribe to) which was founded by an Evangelical minister who is pretty disturbed by the Bushites, and the other is the Interfaith Coalition. Both groups promote church-state separation and freedom of religious belief and practice, and they are a welcome antidote to the current trends. I remind myself of Christians like Jimmy Carter, Bill Moyers, Bishop Desmond Tutu, and their spiritural kin in this country and elsewhere, people with genuinely good hearts and actions....

Be well.

Hekate

[mogster]

10. Good post!

I'm not very spiritually minded, but Desmond Tutu is one of my heroes :-)

[blondeatlast]

17. I'm a Christian as well, albeit a very liberal one.

Read a book by Tim LaHaye or google "dominionism" and be afraid. Be very afraid.

They are deliberatly trying to cause the events that precede Armageddon.

[leftofthedial]

19. the leadership of the "Christian" right

clearly believe in reconstructionism, a tenet of which is that they need to prepare the world for Jesus' return. Part of that scenario is Armageddon.

Whether your family believes it or not, the leaders of the RW religiously insane do.

[imenja]

4. The Left Behind books

Some elements of the Christian Right believe the Apocalypse is imminent. They support Likud because they believe the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a fulfillment of the Book of Revelations. There are a series of books called the "Left Behind" by Tim Lahaye that detail these theories. It's gotten some coverage in the mainstream media, including a program about two years ago on Nightline.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-0343890-0907838
(I entered Left Behind into the search function on Amazon).

[BernieBear]

7. The Left Behind books

really brought this idea into the mainstream and now you have what you would have thought of as reasonable people talking about the Rapture and the US's part in it as though they were asking to pass the table salt. The books were HUGE. Everyone read them it seems. :tinfoilhat:

[Tansy_Gold]

29. the Left Behind books and the popularity of televangelists

is merely a carbon copy of what Hitler did -- dominating the broadcast media (radio in the 1930s) with "the message." Once the televangelists of the 70s and 80s had broken the ice, "the message" moved into the mainstream news and "journalism."

If anyone is really interested -- I've posted this info before but there's always a new crop of DUers -- head for your local university library and find these three books:


Janson, Donald, and Eismann, Bernard. The Far Right New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., 1963.

Jorstad, Erling. The Politics of Doomsday: Fundamentalists of the Far Right. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1970.

Boston, Robert. Close Encounters with the Religious Right: Journeys into the Twilight Zone of Religion and Politics. New York: Prometheus Books, 2000.


There have been people out there documenting this for over 40 years. It's nothing new, folks. These are only three of many, many books.

This is why there are some of us on DU who are trying to highlight the dangers of NOT fighting the religious insistence on "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, the dangers of NOT fighting those who want nativity scenes and the ten commandments in the courthouse. the stealth campaign by the religious far-right has been going on for half a century, and very little has been done to stop it.

There were three momentous events in Spain in the year 1492. One was that the Catholic rulers Fernán of Aragón and Isabel of Castille decided to fund this crazy guy Columbus/Colón who wanted to sail westward to China. Colón was crazy, all right, because he never got to China or India and had to turn around and come back with this story of finding a new world. Yeah, right.

The second momentous event was the final reconquest of Christian Spain from the Muslim Moors. The Moors had invaded Spain in the year 711 and held most of it for several hundred years; the Christian reconquista was not a single campaign or war but a gradual process that culminated in 1492 with the defeat of the last Moorish king and the establishment of Spain as a wholly Christian kingdom under los reyes católicos .

Just one problem remained for Fernán and Isabel: Spain still contained a large community of Jews, who had been welcomed by the Moors at first, then merely tolerated. Under the Catholics, the Jews were anathema. And since the Catholics had dealt with the Muslims, they were also free to deal with the Jews. In 1492, the Jews were expelled from Spain by royal edict.

We've just seen that 44% of Americans believe Muslims in this country should have fewer civil rights. How close are we, then, to the day when Our Holy Christian King George decides the time is ripe to expel the Muslims, expel the Jews, expel the Catholics?

Remember Pastor Niemoller's litany? When they came for the Catholics, I did not speak out for I was not a Catholic. When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out for I was not a trade unionist. And so on.

What we are seeing now is the gradual building up of the power, never questioned and never challenged even by those it threatens, of the far-right theocrats. If you are not with them, you are against them, and they will do away with you one way or another --- if they can.

Tansy Gold, mongering fear

[m berst]

32. sad final chapter

"In 1492, the Jews were expelled from Spain by royal edict."

The city of Thessaloniki took in many refugees, and they joined a strong Jewish community and thrived there for over 400 years until the occupation of the city by the Nazi armies in and subsequent deportation and murder of the population in 1943.

<snip>

"For more than twenty centuries, Thessaloniki was the shelter for the persecuted Jews of Europe. Uprooted throughout their long history from other historical centers of the Diaspora, they were transplanted in this city, creating a large and vibrant Jewish Community, indisputably one of the most important ones in the world, especially during the period 1492-1943."

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/thes.html

[melnjones]

8. regarding the Israel rebuilding the temple stuff...

That already happened, in Biblical times. I'll post a scripture reference later, don't remember what it is offhand. What these Christians are preaching is double-fulfillment of scripture, which only shows their own lack of time spent studying the Bible.

[Algorem]

9. why can't they all just mix themselves up some nize koolaid

and leave us all alone?

[Bridget Burke]

14. Because they'll need servants in the dark times to come.

Slavery was in the Bible, you know.

And I suspect that some involved are only in it for the power.

[Danocrat]

11. Google this: Van Impe Bush

[blondeatlast]

15. Read ANY of TimLaHaye's books--even the ones for kids.

To us it's fiction, to them it's a docudrama.

I'm a Christian, and those things are just ultra-wacky, as is the theory behind them.

[Tsiyu]

20. What I keep wondering

If there is a GOd, and none of us knows FOR SURE, but if there is a God, and he, she or it set up America as an example of an acceptable nation - one that over time became a tolerant, generous, caring, peaceful, prosperous and nurturing society ( as ours could be if we applied our resources to help one another)- and then a bunch of latter-day Pharisees came along and turned it into a spiteful, warmongering, filthy, hate-and-intolerance filled cesspool of super rich and desperate poor, isn't God going to smite the ones who destroyed that great nation?

[OneBlueSky]

21. not all of the Christian right are against environmental protection . . .

take, for example, the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) . . .

JESUS WORE BIRKS
Pro-life, pro-Federal Marriage Amendment—and pro-Kyoto
By Alexander Zaitchik
New York Press
December 15-21, 2004

http://www.nypress.com/17/50/news&columns/feature.cfm

(snip)

This October, the board of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), representing 51 denominations encompassing 30 million American evangelical Christians, unanimously approved a document entitled "For the Health of the Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility." The declaration calls for public engagement in a range of issues, prominent among them "Creation Care"—Christian-speak for environmental activism.

The document states: "We affirm that God-given dominion is a sacred responsibility to steward the earth and not a license to abuse the creation of which we are a part. We are not owners of creation, but its stewards, summoned by God to 'watch over and care for it' (Gen. 2:15)."

(snip)

"Care for the created order is indeed one hallmark of evangelicalism," he says. "If we outline a policy that says that climate change is real, and that it poses a sincere threat to the earth, then you can no longer say, 'This is just hokum,' if you're an evangelical and you want to be with the leadership."

Among the leaders who have signed onto the NAE document are representatives of the most conservative strains in American Christianity. These include Vincent Synan, dean of the Divinity School of Regent University—where Pat Robertson is Chancellor—and Ted Haggard, the fundamentalist pastor and president of the NAE. Both men and the denominations they represent believe in the literal word of the Bible. So do many of the millions of readers of Christianity Today magazine, which has begun to feature regular reports on the environment.

- more . . .

http://www.nypress.com/17/50/news&columns/feature.cfm

[Bridget Burke]

23. Yes. The Dominionist thing is beyond Fundamentalist / Evangelical.

There's at least one website out there--set up by somebody we'd consider a conservative Christian--that points out the "heresy" behind the new Millenialism.

[proud patriot]

24. I believe it comes from the fictional series "left behind"

because it states very clearly in the bible that those
who help bring about the end of times will not be
favored by God.

[Bridget Burke]

25. And "Left Behind" comes from the Dominionist movement.....

Tim LaHaye is a co-author/

Just so you know, Dominionism was born in a movement called Christian Reconstructionism, founded by the late RJ Rushdoony, his son-in-law Gary North, old Pat Robertson, Herb Titus, the former dean of Robertson's Regent University school of Public Policy (used to be CBN University); Charles Colson, born again Nixon crook; Pat's political strategy guy Tim LaHaye, Gary Bauer, the gone Francis Schaeffer, and Paul Crouch, coincidentally founder of TBN, the world's largest TV network, and a battalion of bobble-head TV and radio evangelists and talk show hosts.

The real trick was to start with the Gospels and turn the spiritual "Kingdom of God" into a real-life political empire, to be taken by force; first stop the U.S. of A.

www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/111704Mazza/111704mazza.html

[proud patriot]

27. scary scary folks

x(

[jesusq]

26. http://www.raptureready.com/

http://www.raptureready.com/ is one of the favorite sites among the 11 million or so true rapture believers (Christan Zionists). Visitors ask questions like, "Is the Pope the Antichrist?" They believe, according to prophesy, that certain world events will occur BEFORE the rapture. Thus they have made the leap that we must bring on these events before Jesus can return, in effect. self-fulfilling the Biblical prophesy. Don't expect these folks to fret over war in the middle-east, poverty, famine, disease and unemployment. In their view, this is simple what must happen before Jesus returns, and they REALLY want to meet Jesus. In this context, it is understandable why they would vote for a man who is sending the world to hell in a handcart.

[Senator Lamb]

28. I believe in prophecy

and I believe these fundamentalists and Rapture minded Christians are the ones that are the true army of the anti-christ. false prophets.

[JunkYardDogg]

30. Dominionism-The YuricaReport

go to this site
It is a lon, detailed chronicle of the birth, growth, and goals of the Dominionist Movement
The term :NeoCon" is a happy face/feel good euphemism for Dominionism


http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Hitler had his Zuper Race

Bush has his Zuper God/ Religion
there is No difference
Hitler had the Jews
Bush has the Homosexuals

[Old Mouse]

31. There is also a unique American problem

The birth into a relatively trouble free society - no civil or world war, starvation or extreme economic distress - combined with the new phenomenon of television marketing's pervasive ego stroking messages from birth have made the baby boomers have the unifying characteristic of an overdeveloped sense of self.

Some of this broad swath of the population lacked the strength to perform even the slightest of self evaluation. When their personal conviction of their own inherent value was not validated by their life experiences, they did not become rich or famous, they compensated by creating the delusion of a unique relationship and importance to God. This rationalization for existence is not articulated, but is more of an egotistic drive demanding the opportunity to be proven right. As it is an issue of faith, it cannot be proven wrong.

The ultimate conclusion of this self-centered mythology is that "If I am of unique and irreplaceable importance to the universe, the universe cannot possibly live without or beyond me. "

[NeoLotus]

33. The Opiate of the Masses

Old Mouse wrote:

When their personal conviction of their own inherent value was not validated by their life experiences, they did not become rich or famous, they compensated by creating the delusion of a unique relationship and importance to God.

I just happened to catch CNN last night doing a report on evangelicals. They had a shot of a guy in a church singing. He had his eyes closed and had an almost blissed out look, but I could also detect that he is also hurting in his life, most likely due to economic factors.

Anyway, I realized in seeing him what Marx referred to as religion being the opiate of the masses.

Mouse's point above relates to the lack of compassion and humaneness in our governmental policies and and I see its crippling effects on people, and this has the effect of driving people to religion for spiritual relief of some kind. Unfortunately, it's the wrong "religion."

On another but related note, what needs to happen for these people is to have their "leaders" discredited. These are pious Christians that have been severly brainwashed and are part of a massive cult. In this case, if you cut off the head, you kill the snake. But the head of this snake can also be like a hydra, so we need lots of intelligence gathering on this. If you know anyone good at this kind of research, please email me.

LotusFawkes

[hvn_nbr_2]

34. What Bible actually says about Armageddon (not RW fantasies)

If they actually read the Bible instead of believing what freaky preachers tell them about it, they'd discover some interesting things.

Point 1.
ALL the armies of ALL the nations of earth are on the same side at Armageddon, and they're all opposed to the Word of God! Maybe they think they're battling each other, but in doing so they're actually warring against G.

Rev 19:14 and Rev 19:19 talk about the armies of the earth, all opposed to the Word of God, and the armies in heaven who are on G's side. The only "armies" on G's side are in heaven, not on earth, and they go into "battle" clothed in white linen. Know any earthly armies that go into battle in white linen? (Side note: Later in the story, heaven comes down to earth, but at this point in the story, "in heaven" is not "on earth.")

Rev 19:19 says, "And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him..." Not some of the kings, all them, and there is never any mention of earthly armies on G's side. (Side note: Throughout Rev, he uses "kings" to mean "nations." If you try to make kings mean literal individual kings instead of nations, great swaths of Rev and the fundies' story about Rev become nonsense.)

Point 2.
The only weapon that the Word of God uses to defeat all the armies of earth is TRUTH!

The only weapon mentioned that G's side uses is a double-edged sword coming out of the mouth of the Word of God. The beast and false prophet are captured (Rev 19:20) "and the rest were killed with the sword that proceedeth from the mouth of Him..." (Rev 19:21).

(Side note: These verses don't include the word "double-edged" although some of the oldest manuscripts do include it. However, elsewhere in Rev, it mentions this sword being double-edged.)

Okay, this double-edged sword from the mouth of the Word of God is interesting. Obviously, it's not a literal description--if Jesus actually rode around a battlefield killing millions of soldiers by sticking and slashing them with a sword held in his mouth, it would look more like a 3 Stooges routine than Armageddon. So the sword is obviously symbolic.

Everyone assumes the sword is symbolic of military power, but think about it. It's singularly inept as a symbol of military power and makes no sense that way. For one thing, it's the 3 Stooges effect of the imagery. For another, if it really were a symbol of military power, it would be in the right hand of the Wrath of God or the Will of God or something like that. In the mouth of the Word of God, it just doesn't make any sense.

However, the way this double-edged sword coming out of the mouth of the Word of God makes perfect sense is as a symbol of Truth! How often have you heard something like "truth is a double-edged sword"? Paul uses the metaphor in one of his letters. I think the only places anywhere in the Bible that refer to two-edged swords use them as a metaphor for truth. Coming out of the mouth--again truth makes much more sense than military might. The "Word of God"--also makes more sense as truth than as military might.

God's truth is the one thing strong enough to defeat all the armies of the earth.

Point 3.
Therefore, the real story of Armageddon is not a war to end all wars. It is a TRUTH to end all wars. All armies are opposed to the Word of God. The story of Armageddon is actually a call to pacifism! Not surprising at all for a story about a guy who refused to make war against Rome and also put back and healed the Roman soldier's ear when one of his disciples cut it off.

RW fundies don't read the Bible carefully. They just buy whatever the freakiest, angriest, most hateful preacher is selling.