Are you losing interest in what John Kerry says or does?1

[patricia92243]

Right or wrong, I find myself skipping over threads that quote him or give his opinion on this or that.

I'm sorry - but I'm beginning to find him irrelevant.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. No I am losing interest in what those who habitually trash him say or do

[StClone]

4. I second that

Jeeessssh.

[liberalpragmatist]

18. I third that

I'm also tired of DU'ers saying Kerry is spineless because he won't stand up and demand that the results be overturned because of "obvious fraud." I'm not saying everything was right in Ohio and there needs to be investigations, but the chance of the result being overturned is beyond miniscule - it's infinitly small and if Kerry were to stand up and refuse to accept the results he would basically destroy the democratic Party. You can't make allegations without hard evidence. And all the evidence so far is purely speculative. Yet some people seem to be completely out of touch with reality.

[Vektor]

26. FOURTH! - We have to remember...

Kerry is a prosecuting attorney. He is pretty well versed in the proper methods of conducting an investigation. He is fully aware that despite the presence of some pretty compelling evidence, you have to have ENOUGH SOLID EVIDENCE gathered, signed, sealed, and delivered before you start screaming accusations from the rafters, or you blow the whole case. Sorry to bring up a controversial figure, but remember the early stages of the Scott Peterson case? There weren't a whole lot of folks who thought the guy was completely innocent. In fact, MANY of his behaviors were under scrutiny, and he WAS being watched. People were livid - claiming - "haul this guy in" - "the Modesto police are doing NOTHING" - this wasn't true, but they had to proceed in a quiet, orderly, stealthy, manner until they had enough evidence to snag him, and do it right. In the end, look what happened. Whether you personally agree with the sentence or not, they DID do something when it was all said and done.

I know it is maddening to sit by and play "hurry up and wait" feeling like nothing is getting done, but that may not be the case. I have heard stirring that the Kerry camp IS acting, and that may be true, in fact, it likely is. And we do not know what Kerry has or has not contributed to the effort. it may be more than we are being told. I want to blow this thing wide open too, believe me. But I want it done right. I am choosing to wait and see how this whole thing plays out before I decide to pass judgment on how Kerry handled the situation. Don't get me wrong, I am on the edge of my seat *waiting* for a result, an answer, an affirmation.

But I'm not ready to throw my support to the wind just yet. I hope some of you will hang in there with me.

Peace.

[Redleg]

103. Fifth.

What the fourth guy said.

[seaglass]

41. Fifth n/t

[Griffy]

110. 6th.. this turning or our own makes me think freeps, just their style! nt

[Ms_Mary]

126. 7th.

[Califooyah Operative]

166. 8th...

Stop being irrational and jumping to conclusions, please. We're all democrats.

[muse]

168. 9th that

I long for Kerry to say more. I will patiently wait. I definitely do not find what he says to be irrelevant.

[seito]

184. I'll 10th that

I think he will be very relevant in bringing down the BFEE. Sooner rather than later, I hope.

[wiggle-room]

197. Eleventh n/t

[shawmut]

198. 12th!!! n/t

[NewYorkerfromMass]

43. Here here! Kerry's the frontrunner for 2008

Everyone else will be chasing him.

[Blue Shark]

59. In your wildest dreams!

John Kerry won this year and, on bad advise, quit.

If he doesn't speak up about Ohio and Florida in 2004, he is less than toast FOREVER after.

To think that we are stuck with THE. WORST. PRESIDENT. EVER. because John Kerry is being "oh so clever" being For the recount after being Against the recount. His staff is still spewing that they don't believe the recount will change the outcome of the election...WTF!

JFK II needs to be the BULLHORN and and Cudgel for this party Right Now. Four years from now Fuggedddaboudit!

[LittleClarkie]

174. We're stuck with the worst president ever due to the worst president ever

He was never against the recount. He never said "Don't do it."

Thrillsville. More RNC talking points coming out of my own side. If we won, it was a fucking miracle we did, despite some folks on our side, rather than because of them.

Do me a favor next time -- don't do me any favors. If you don't support the candidate, then don't support the candidate. I don't care if Genghis Khan is running against him. Vote Green. Vote Lib. Vote Socialist. Vote for My Pet Goat. Just don't ever try to support a candidate you don't support ever again. Please.

[liberalpragmatist]

63. I don't really think so - and I really like him

First off, I don't know if he should run in '08. I think he'd make a great president and I would gladly vote for him again. But I think we oughta wait and see how the next few years work out. I think Kerry has a strong chance IF he seizes a major opposition role in the Senate, takes on a couple issues really high profile (esp. foreign policy/national security), dumps Shrum, and helps define what being a Democrat is all about.

That's a tall order. I think he'll be able to do it if he wants. But let's not crown anyone. While I like him and I supported him this year, I'm keeping an open mind for '08 and will make a decision at that time. I'm not bound to Kerry.

But I also think he has the right to run. And the primary voters have the right to decide whether or not he should have a second chance.

[Clarkie1]

89. In what universe? Certainly not this one.

[Griffy]

111. as incumbent... be in DC on the 6th or only repubs will be elected!

[seito]

185. Love ya Griffy

:loveya:

Be in DC on the 6th

[AgadorSparticus]

120. yes, he'll be the frontrunner for 2008 where he will throw the election

again because jeb MUST be president. and what's to stop that from happening? kerry will, once again, be the pretty illusion that we have a choice and a real election to go with our democracy. it doesn't matter who we run. the fix is in.

[Mirwib]

160. No chance does Kerry get the nomination in 2008

Adlai Stevenson got two chances in the 1950's (1952 & 1956). Nixon got two chances in the 1960's (1960 & 1968). It has been 36 years since a party nominated a candidate who lost a previous election. In that time, the country has changed.

The next candidate will have to show that she/he can take a "red" state and turn it "blue".

[IndianaGreen]

179. Adlai Stevenson was a decent human being that everyone respected

that's why he was nominated twice only to lose to a really big war hero who led us to victory against Nazi Germany.

Kerry is no Adlai Stevenson!

[IndianaGreen]

177. Kerry can only become a Democratic version of Harold Stassen

perennial Presidential candidate, and perennial LOSER!

Hillary is the frontrunner for 2008.

Hopefully we might nominate someone like Russ Feingold and return to our New Deal/Fair Deal roots.

[Redleg]

101. Me too. It's almost a friggin' routine here.

Flame away, Kerry haters.

[cidliz2004]

149. Good quotes on other threads

IS COBB LYING???

Green Party's Cobb Says Kerry Is Thwarting Recount


Green Party's Cobb Says Kerry Is Thwarting Recount

The Raw Story/John Byrne | December 17 2004

In an exclusive interview with RAW STORY Friday, the Green Party’s presidential candidate David Cobb lashed out at Sen. John Kerry, saying he Democratic nominee has tried to “undermine,” “delegitimize” and “minimize” the Ohio recount.

(snip)

Meanwhile, Cobb observed, Kerry has not contributed “a single dime.”

“John Kerry is trying to minimize and undermine and delegitmize the recount,” Cobb asserted.

(snip)

Kerry, given the opportunity to exercise his right for a recount as a candidate that received a large percentage of the vote, declined to do so. As such, the Green Party and others raised $150,000 to pay Ohio to conduct the count.

(snip)

“They’ve issued periodic letters which have no meaning under law,” Cobb remarked.

Asked whether he had a theory on why Kerry conceded so quickly, he replied, “John Kerry definitely wanted to beat Bush, but as a member of a ruling elite, the one thing that John Kerry values over everything else is continued membership in the ruling elite.” “I think it’s shameful,” he added.

(snip)

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=502

[Redleg]

170. That's a reliable source.

EOM

[pbartch]

119. Me too. Kerry is the best thing to come along to help our country

in a Loooooooooooooooooooong time!!!

Help/Hope is on the way!

[quiet.american]

167. Why? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

180. And how did Kerry's vote for war help this country?

Forget his bullshit excuses as to how his voting for the Iraq War Resolution was not a vote for war, but consider his latter statement that had he known then what he knows now he would still have voted for IWR. How did his vote for war help this country?

[Dr Ron]

2. Foolish Move

John Kerry may or may not be the best candidate for 2008--it is far too early to worry about that question. Regardless, he is in an excellent position to be one (perhaps of several) prominent Democratic leaders and spokesmen. His values are probably closer to those of most DU members than those of the Senate Democratic leader.

Kerry has two types of experience which could be meaningful in the next four years He has fought an unjust war which is very similar (on a political level) to Iraq. He also has experience investigating dishonesty and corruption, and there is certainly plenty to investiage in the Bush administration.

[malatesta1137]

8. Kerry is finished

are you for real? Are you seriously considering him for 2008 after his pitiful, dismal behavior regarding fraud, not to mention his instant concession?

How can you say he has experience investigating dishonesty and corruption when he failed MISERABLY to stand up against fraud in his own run for the presidency?

Democrats will be better off with Dean, Clark or Edwards in 2008.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. BULLSHIT!! I am sick and fucking tired of people claiming this when ALL

THREE candidates could not take more than ONE STATE in the primaries (oops...I think Clark might have won two) Either way, I am sick and tired of hearing what a "weak" cadidate Kerry was when in fact he took MORE BODY blows than ANY of the other candidates could have HOPED to withstand during this dirty ugly election season...Clark would have been tarred by all the crap they were spreading about his behavior around the execution of Kosovo, Edwards would have been portrayed as an absent senator (he was) and Dean could only win his OWN FUCKING STATE after squandering 47 million in the primaries.

Those of you who continue to view Dean as the messiah need to get a grip on the fact that he could NOT EVEN COUNTER the propaganda his own party threw at him (even though I DON'T support the Dean OSama ads, I find it amazing that everyone considered Kerry weak with countering the swifties, but then you all cry and whine and moan about Dean being tarnished by the Osama ads...I thought tough guys stood up this stuff and countered it.....no double standard there...it's OK to cry about Dean..but Kerry was a pussy...oh I get it)

[malatesta1137]

24. let's see how many states Kerry will carry in 2008

if he ever runs, that is. I don't think he can raise $25 from Democrats at this point, considering his weak and pitiful behavior after Nov 2.

Even one of the Olsen twins would do better.

Kerry won the nomination not because he was Kerry, but because we thought he could beat Bush.

Say what you will about Dean, the man is not a coward. He's not afraid of the Bush Organized Crime Family and HE DOES NOT CAVE IN LESS THAN 12 HOURS AFTER THE POLLS ARE CLOSED.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. He didn't have to cave...he couldn't win...let's see if he gets the

nomination in 08 with unions pissed at the way he squandered their contributions and mismanaged campaign funds

[malatesta1137]

38. Dean couldn't win because the media destroyed him

They knew he would be the only real opposition to Bush.

Rove and the media were JUBILANT Dems chose Kerry. They knew 10 months ago what we all found out on Nov 3

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. OK this is too funny..the media destroyed Dean but Kerry folded

I LOVE The double standard. Please don't pick on our precious Howard but we will slander Kerry all we want.

[DemOperative]

50. its more than that

you know for a fact because you live out here with me. I only wish you lived closer. Dean was the strongest candidate and we laid down for the sake of the party. We could have fought like the good old days but that wasn't what was coming down this time due to the Bush factor. Unless you think that he wouldn't have won California had he stayed in.

But you know how I feel about JK. Wrong guy , wrong time.
but he did what he could, even maybe won, but everyone feels so betrayed by his quick rollover.

Howard is what Howard is; he's got an idea and a plan and has found himself riding a wave that started long before he got on; yet he's our guy and dammit, he's right, and he has been all along.

Nothing precious about that. I don't think we're talking about a double standard, its apples and oranges.
If you spent more time around me you'd know this by now :evilgrin:

XXX

[cidliz2004]

69. Kerry was the annointed Democratic Candidate

Howard Dean was not. Kerry was supposed to fight for this country as the Democratic National Candidate. Kerry was supposed to "fall on the sword", "take the hit", in order to preserve the INTEGRITY of our voting system. Instead, he rolled over and is now (supposedly) working under the radar to fix our voting system. O.K. when is he supposed to surface with all of his solutions and/or truth about the vote? Or is he in fact just preparing for 08? How long does he have to be "quietly working" "behind the scenes" for the integrity of the vote,BEFORE people realize that, hey, maybe he is actually just laying the groundwork for 08?

Is there a date that we can all look forward to to signify the outcome of all of the behind the scenes work that Kerry and his staff are doing to rectify the voting process? If so, would somebody please share it with us? I'd guess in about 2.5 years, Kerry will start stirring and making more statements and conincidentally about the same time, we'll also hear about Kerry's proposed "solutions" as he is announcing his bid for running for President in 08'.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[Seabiscuit]

71. Indeed, Kerry was "anointed" by the DLC.

I didn't vote for Kerry, I voted against Bush, and sadly, Kerry was the only alternative. I didn't expect him to win because he ran a really poor campaign full of compromised principles. And he blew the most important issue, Iraq. Any Democrat should have been able to thoroughly demolish Bush on Iraq and Kerry came across as Bush-lite.

Shame on him. He'll never get my vote again. If he runs in 2008 against Jeb Bush I'll vote Green.

[Queen Jane]

73. then shame on you.

[Seabiscuit]

76. Who are you to judge????

Shame on me? For standing up for principle and critizing a candidate who failed us all when it came to principles, and thereby lost the election to the worst president in history?

And then Kerry broke his vow to us all to fight for every vote when he ducked out on November 3.

Shit, Howdy Doody could have made mincemeat of Bush. It was Kerry's to lose and he threw it all away, and our welfare with it.

Shame on Kerry and shame on YOU!

[Queen Jane]

79. your opinion, friend.

what did he duck out on, exactly? show me the evidence. he lost, he conceded. if you want to blame him for the votes of americans, go ahead. but i'll say it again, this is not 2000, and those of you who insist on blaming kerry for everything and living in delusion are doing nothing for this party or this cause.

you know, we can eat each other alive because we're all sad and angry, but what do we get at the end? what are we left with?

we're all standing up for principle. keep that in mind.

[Seabiscuit]

82. He ducked out on his promise to fight for every vote.

As a Kerry fan, surely you know that.

He had assembled a team of thousands of attorneys to fight legal battles over every shred of evidence of election fraud/disenfranchisement, but instead, less than 12 hours after the polls closed, he conceded and sent all those attorneys home. And they were working pro bono - for free. They were PISSED!

And so am I.

You're the one "living in delusion". If you believed in standing up for principle as much as you say you do, you would be just as appalled at Kerry's "Bush-lite" stance on Iraq, and would be just as appalled at his folding his tent on November 3 and breaking his promise to us to fight for every vote.

[Queen Jane]

83. no subject.

HE LOST.

since you're obviously a Dean fan, surely you understand that.

get it, and move on.

and don't attack my principles.

this conversation is over.

[Seabiscuit]

84. Fine. Buh-Bye!

[Queen Jane]

86. look, we're supposed to be on the same side.

i'm sorry i criticized your goddamn principles, and i'm sorry you criticized mine, not that i know what they are anymore.
so have a drink, cos it's gonna be a long 4 years, even without savaging our supposed friends.
:toast:

[LittleClarkie]

87. That "Bush-lite" stance sure won him some fans in the first debate

He comes by that stance naturally, btw. It's what we voted for in the primaries, someone who believes in fighting terrorism but who has very different idea about how.

He kicked Bush all over the stage on an issue that was supposed to be his week point, not his strong point.

Past tense? The lawyers were out there? Last time I heard, there still were Kerry lawyers in Ohio.

Uh, I'm not in the mood, but here goes:
Recount money in Washington and Louisiana
Joined the Glibs in court
Signed his name 88 times for each recount in Ohio
Civil suit alleging obstruction in recount in Ohio

Plus any number of comments saying, not that he would be trying to be president, but that he would make sure every vote got counted. He's been doing that. No more, no less. No hidden messages. Just exactly what he said he would do.

How is this person living in delusion when apparently you haven't been paying attention to the ongoing news in Ohio. Did you just form an opinion and go with it, facts be damned?

I'm not appalled at his Iraq stance. After reading speeches and books by him, I know how he got there. It wasn't just for the campaign. I spent half my time during the campaign explaining that. It wasn't just to get elected. He knows quite alot about international crime, and what it takes to fight it. He's been remarkably consistent on the subject.

[IowaGuy]

191. Surely your as competent as Howdy-doody....

a cartoon character; perhaps you would throw your hat into the ring and demonstrate to us all how easy it would be.

[Blue Shark]

67. Where is Dean on Ohio?

Where is ANY senior Democrat other than Dennis Kucinich?

[robbedvoter]

25. I think Kerry (ABB) won, so no recriminations from me on the campaign

Problem is, he gave the victory away with a wimper - and we cannot even engage in a public dialogue of the election theft because of him.
Democracy just dies and Kerry's passivity helped.

[Dr Ron]

31. On the contrary

I think that Kerry's concession was necessary for election reform to be taken seriously.

Kerry got far less votes from the provisional ballots than I expected--and even if he got what I expected it wouldn't have been enough to win.

The only way Kerry can still win is if real evidence of fraud is uncovered and he picks up many more votes. In that case, the concession doesn't matter.

Many of the problems, such as voter suppression, cannot be addressed with regards to changing the 2004 election. On the unlikely event that Kerry could win a court battle for a new vote, there is no way the Supreme Court would allow it.

The danger of tying election reform to the 2004 election is that people will see it as a tin foil hat argument to overturn a past election, and not take it seriously. Election reform must be fought for based upon the merits of the argument, not based upon beliefs on the outcome of the 2004 election. If Kerry did not concede, he, and the Democrats would be seen as a joke, and future fights for election reform would not be taken seriously.

As for 2008, much depends upon what the potential candidates do in the next few years. For Kerry it will largely come down to how effective he is in either fighting Bush or pushing for programs of his own in the Senate.

[Blue Shark]

64. Dr. Ron...

...at risk of insulting you, you don't seem to understand that ALL the numbers upon which you predicate your opinions and answers are suspect. Three and a half million popular votes can be nothing more than 2 or three lines of computer code in the tabulators.

Its all ones and zeros man!

The people who control the machines gave the ones to Bush and the Zeros to Kerry.

There is MASSIVE evidence of number manipulation. Kerry won this thing going away and the machines reported the opposite. Why do you think the "obstructionist waltz" is playing around the clock in OHIO.

Florida was even screwier.

ANY analysis of the "reported vote totals" is just a guess.

[Dr Ron]

136. Needs to be proven

If there is such massive fraud, Kerry's concession is irrelevant.

Kerry's attorneys have asked to look at the machines in Ohio. If they can show tampering with the actual numbers, then they can fight this. It is far better to do this in the quiet manner they are working until they have evidence.

[Blue Shark]

61. He still folded like a cheap suit...

...AFTER HE WON!

He took 58 million of us down with him you know.

[Seabiscuit]

72. His gravestone marker should read: "I folded in 2004".

[FrenchieCat]

98. Excuse me while you "rant" nothingshocksmeanymore....now it's my turn

But while you go through your screaming fit about John Kerry and how he was the "best"....let me just make sure we don't get confused here....

You stated that Clark would have been tarred for winning the war in Kosovo? Really? They may have tried, but honestly it would have appeared a little bit desperate. The War in Kosovo didn't happen over 35 years ago. I don't think that newspaper reports that were printed a few short years ago would just "poof" and disappear. Just cuz you are upset for what some are saying about Kerry (whom I voted for), doesn't mean you have to trash the General or Howard Dean, for that matter.

General Wesley K. Clark USA (ret.) is the nation's most highly decorated officer since Dwight Eisenhower. Among his military decorations are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal (five awards); Distinguished Service Medal (two awards); Silver Star, Legion of Merit (four awards); Bronze Star Medal (two awards); Purple Heart; Meritorious Service Medal (two awards); Army Commendation Medal (two awards); NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to Kosovo, NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Legacy of Leadership and Lady Liberty(TM) Award.

His Foreign awards include the Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom); Commander of the Legion of Honor (France); Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany; Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands); Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy; Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal); The Commander's Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland; Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain); The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium); Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic); Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic; Commander's Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia; Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria); Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defense of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia); First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania); Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia); The Skandeberg Medal (Albania); Order of Merit of Morocco; Order of Merit of Argentina; The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia) and the Military Service Cross of Canada.

Albright in honor of Gen. Clark
Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright
Remarks at White House Fellows Association Gala Dinner
In Honor of General Wesley Clark, "Legacy of Leadership" Award
Washington, DC, October 1, 1999
As released by the Office of the Spokesman, October 2, 1999
U.S. Department of State
(As Delivered)
And there is no better example of that kind of leadership than General Wesley K. Clark.
Wes is one of my personal heroes -- and not just because of the way he looks in a uniform.
General Clark has proven himself to be a diplomat of the highest order as well as an outstanding military commander and strategist.
In Dayton, he offered creative solutions -- and a mastery of detail -- to help bridge seemingly intractable differences; and he used a combination of charm and persistence to win the confidence of three leaders who had little if any trust in each other.

But for General Clark, that was just a warm-up. In Kosovo, he had what Italy's foreign minister correctly called "the most difficult task of them all" during NATO's first real military campaign.
In Kosovo, we asked the political and military leaders of nineteen nations to work together, and decide -- by consensus! -- on tactical as well as strategic decisions.

And we asked Wes Clark to lead and coordinate the entire effort.
I can testify that he did a tremendous job, from start to finish.
He is a man of wisdom and courage, who helped change history just a little bit. He has my personal admiration for everything he has done..

In short, General Clark is the embodiment of everything John Gardner hoped for when he created the White House Fellowships.
Wes has well-earned this award, and the lasting gratitude of our nation.


SHAPE NEWS SUMMARY & ANALYSIS 14 MARCH 2000
Gen. Clark-Bulgaria: Sofia's BTA, March 13, reported that Bulgarian President Peter Stoyanov on Monday presented the Order of the Madara Horseman, First Class with Swords, to Gen. Clark. The report quoted a presidential decree saying Gen. Clark was being honored for his "extraordinary services to the promotion of military cooperation between Bulgaria and NATO and to this country's preparation for membership in the Alliance." It also cited Peter Stoyanov stressing that while "the decree limits itself to the main reasons," he also conferred the distinction on Gen. Clark for showing understanding of the difficult process in Bulgaria in recent years. "Gen. Clark has an exceedingly important place in the dialogue between Bulgaria and NATO," Stoyanov reportedly said, expressing his conviction that Gen. Clark's efforts in future appointments would continue to benefit the Alliance and Bulgaria. The dispatch added that acknowledging the high honor, Gen. Clark thanked the president for Bulgaria's support to the allied effort during the Kosovo crisis. He also thanked the president for his personal contribution to cooperation with NATO in recent years. "The general gave high marks to the performance of the Bulgarian troops committed to the Allied missions in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo, noting that their role exceeded by far the numerical strength of the Bulgarian engineers there," the dispatch continued.

In a related broadcast, Sofia Khorizont Radio noted the reform in the Bulgarian army and joint exercises with NATO were two of the subjects discussed at the meeting between Gen. Clark and President Peter Stoyanov.

Sofia's Monitor, March 13, claimed senior officers in Bulgaria's General Staff admitted "it cannot be ruled out that there is a direct connection between (Gen. Clark's visit) to Bulgaria … and the upcoming Dynamic Response 2000 exercise. Quoting the sources saying it could not be ruled out that NATO aircraft may again enter Bulgarian airspace, the report suggested Gen. Clark may have used his visit to "calm the government" in advance.


SHAPE NEWS SUMMARY & ANALYSIS 22 MARCH 2000

Gen. Clark-Czech Republic: Prague's CTK, March 21, reported Defense Minister Vladimir Vetchy on Tuesday presented Gen. Clark with a medal and thanked him for having supported the Czech Republic's bid for NATO entry. The dispatch quoted Gen. Clark saying, at a news conference after talks with Czech Army Chief of Staff Gen. Sedivy, he believed it was necessary for the Czech army to complete its transformation. The Czech Army needed to improve its system of financing, develop the skills of its commanders and improve their knowledge of English, Gen. Clark said.

Wednesday, 22 March 2000 Radio Slovakia International

General Wesley Clark Visits Slovakia
Commander in Chief of NATO forces in Europe, General Wesley Clark, visited Slovakia on Wednesday. During his one-day visit, General Clark met with the Chief of Staff of the Slovak Army General Milan Cerovsky and Defense Minister Pavol Kanis. The main themes of their talks were post-election developments in Austria, the situation in the Balkans, and the modernization and reform of the Slovak armed forces. Slovak Defense Minister Pavol Kanis decorated General Clark with a commemorative medal of the Slovak Defense Ministry of the first degree, the highest ministerial award. Slovak Prime Minister Mikulas Dzurinda and Foreign Affairs Minister Eduard Kukan also received the guest.

SHAPE NEWS SUMMARY & ANALYSIS 30 MARCH 2000
Gen. Clark-Britain: Under the title, "NATO chief knighted at MOD," The Times writes a unique ceremony took place in the British Defense Ministry on Wednesday when Gen. Clark was presented with the insignia of an honorary knighthood. The newspaper notes the honor was conferred on Gen. Clark by Defense Secretary Hoon, who, acting for Queen Elizabeth in her absence, presented the insignia of the Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KCB) to the general. The newspaper observes Gen. Clark is one of only a few foreign military personnel to receive an honorary knighthood. His two predecessors as SACEUR were not knighted it says, adding previous recipients included Gen. Colin Powell and Gen. Schwarzkopf. A related AFP dispatch says Gen. Clark was praised for his direction of peacekeeping forces in Bosnia and Kosovo. It notes that since 1990, only seven honorary knighthoods have been awarded to foreign military personnel.

Cleland to sponsor Congressional Gold Medal for General Wesley Clark
Free-standing bill to honor Kosovo leader has support of 67 Senators
WASHINGTON, DC— U.S. Senator Max Cleland today announced that he will sponsor a bill to award General Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor. Cleland had originally offered this measure as an amendment to the FY 2001 Defense Authorization bill, but because of procedural requirements, has decided to offer a free-standing bill to make the award.

"General Clark led the NATO forces to a decisive victory in the skies over Kosovo," Cleland said. "He was the point person for a radically different type of war and combat, with a multi-national force and a multi-national set of leaders to gain consensus from. This is the new breed of combat for the 21st Century, and the General mastered it with the highest possible military standards."

The Congressional Gold Medal of Honor is the highest honor that the United States Government can bestow on an individual. The Medal was first awarded to George Washington. His medal, awarded by the Act of March 25, 1776, was the first of its kind to be bestowed. Past recipients of the award include General Colin Powell, General Norman Schwartzkopf, Mother Teresa of Calcutta and most recently John Cardinal O'Connor.

"When we make the decision to use force, it must be our goal to win and win quickly," Cleland said. "General Clark led over 75,000 troops from 37 countries in military operations against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, putting a stop to Slobodan Milosevic's horrendous human rights abuses and wholesale ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. He always acted with the utmost professionalism, even when working within the confines of war-by-coalition. His performance was a tribute to United States military training, leadership and expertise. He was successful in meeting the difficult challenge given to him, and should be recognized accordingly."

Senator Cleland has secured the support of sixty-six other Senators, the number required by the Senate Banking Committee, the committee of jurisdiction, to consider any coin or gold medal legislation.

Also see this site which shows newspaper after newspaper articles lauding the General back in the year 2000 (not 1968-1971).
http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/awards.htm

My point is don't start shitting on Wes Clark's parade. He did all that he could to try to get Kerry into the WH. Your frustrations are misplaced, and your articulation needs to take a chill pill!

Note....I have so much more than what is here in terms of POSITIVE press about Clark during Kosovo...till it's not even funny!

Even the WWIII comment wouldn't have held up. So much for your crystal ball!

Sending in Russian paratroopers was absolutely unnecessary and extremely provocative. The area was still very volatile and crawling with Serbian paramilitary units. It would have been very easy for the Russians to be mistaken for Serbs by NATO units, especially at night. The airport had no strategic value - Russian officials were making a purely political statement. By the same token, if the airport had no strategic value, why was Clark so concerned? Especially since the Russians were our quasi-allies in this complicated political conflict.
>snip
It makes sense that Clark, being the highest ranking military commander in all of Europe and an expert on central Europe, knew better than any person on the planet what the capabilities and tendencies of the Russian army were - that was his job. Clark knew exactly what he was doing and what the risks were. He knew the Russian high command would never risk a humiliating and historical defeat at the hands of the Americans - which even the Russians admit would have been the outcome. Their military machine was on the verge of total collapse in 1999. One strong piece of evidence for that is how the Pristina issue was finally resolved. The 200 paratroopers could not be resupplied and the Americans eventually sent in food and water - essentially a humanitarian mission. That's how pitiful the Russians were. So all in all, I think the doomsday scenario can be discounted, and some contemporaneous military observers agree that Gen. Jackson's "WWIII" comments were pure hyperbole.
http://www.epivox.com/wesleyclark-knoxvill..._editorial...

by Elizabeth Drew:

"Much has been made of a single sentence in a long argument that Clark had with General Sir Michael Jackson, the British officer in command on the scene at Pristina airport, who said, "I'm not going to start World War III for you." Clark devoted an entire chapter to the airport incident in his first book, and his account has been confirmed by others. He explains that at first he had the support of the Clinton White House and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as the secretary-general of NATO, Javier Solana. But when the British refused to support him, largely in response to Jackson's objections, Washington backed down. Clark himself reported Jackson's now-famous hyperbolic line to Shelton as an example of what he saw as an emotional overreaction. Berger says, "To say that Wes was reckless is to misunderstand the context; it's an absurd notion."
Read the whole article here (It's good!):
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795

Gen Jackson criticized by Kosovo report
http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19991018nato3.htm

World: Europe
German to assume K-For command
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/444350.stm
German General Klaus Reinhardt is to replace Britain's General Sir Mike Jackson as commander of Nato's Kosovo peacekeeping force, K-For.

The can-do general for war and peace
(Filed: 26/05/2003)
General Sir Mike Jackson's forehead is scarred, his cheeks are pitted, his nose sunburnt and the pouches under his eyes could carry his entire mess kit. His face could be a road map through the last 40 years of British military adventures: the Cold War, Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq.

Today, the new whisky-drinking, cheroot-smoking Chief of the General Staff is surrounded by men in suits and women in short skirts from the MoD press office. Gold braid drips from his mountainous shoulders as he stretches out on a leather sofa in the old War Office.

The peace rallies and the lack of United Nations support never alarmed him (you can't imagine much worrying this general). "No soldier who has seen active service wants to rush into a war, but sometimes it is the lesser of two evils," he reflects. "I'm quite satisfied in myself that it was right."

Nor is he concerned that no weapons of mass destruction have yet been found. "I understand that not everyone saw the necessity of bringing Saddam Hussein to account, but it was the right thing to do and I'm proud that this nation swung behind the troops when their lives were on the line."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%... ....

Gen. Mike Jackson's role in 'Bloody Sunday' controversial
Bloody Sunday Inquiry `Consider Recall for General Sir Mike'
By Kieran McDaid, PA News
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=6705183

Britain's most senior soldier may be recalled to give further evidence to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, it has emerged.

The three Saville Inquiry judges are considering whether to ask General Sir Mike Jackson, the Chief of the General Staff, to return to the witness box in London to discuss a controversial document alleged to be in his hand writing.

General Jackson, who was an adjutant in the Parachute Regiment on January 30, 1972, said he had no recollection of taking part in the compilation of a list of what soldiers fired at, when he gave his evidence to the inquiry two months' ago.

A contemporaneous handwritten note of the engagements, alleged to be in Gen Jackson's hand writing, was submitted to the inquiry last week by the Ministry of Defence.

Colonel Ted Loden, the major in command of the army unit which fired more than 100 shots on Bloody Sunday, had claimed he made a list of engagements, which was later typed up, after interviewing soldiers in his armoured vehicle.

Gen. Sir Mike's nicknames are "Macho Jacko" or "Prince of Darkness"!
----------------------
Clark's problem was that he was a great general but not always a perfect soldier--at least when it came to saluting and saying, "Yes, sir." In fact, when he got orders he didn't like, he said so and pushed to change them.
>snip
More presciently, Clark was right about the Russians. When fewer than 200 lightly armed Russian peacekeepers barnstormed from Bosnia to the Pristina airport in Kosovo to upstage the arrival of NATO peacekeepers, Clark was rightly outraged. Russians did not win the war, and he did not want them to win the peace.

Clark asked NATO helicopters and ground troops to seize the airport before the Russians could arrive. But a British general, absurdly saying he feared World War III (in truth the Russians had no cards to play), appealed to London and Washington to delay the order.

The result was a humiliation for NATO, a tonic for the Russian military and an important lesson for the then-obscure head of the Russian national security council, Vladimir Putin. As later Russian press reports showed, Putin knew far more about the Pristina operation than did the Russian defense or foreign ministers. It was no coincidence that a few weeks afterward, Russian bombers buzzed NATO member Iceland for the first time in a decade. A few weeks after that, with Putin as prime minister, Russian troops invaded Chechnya. Putin learned the value of boldness in the face of Western hesitation. Clark learned that he had no backup in Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=artic...

What the last bold comment means is that BECAUSE of the lack of foresight on the part of Gen Jacko Jackson and the Republican Sec of Defense Cohen and Gen. Shelton, Putin and the whole Chechnya invasion was allowed to happen because these dumb assholes were not thinking strategically.

and Coincidently, the School shootings in Russia by Chechnya terrorists were shown all over CNN and other networks here in America as it happened in the middle of the election 2004 season. Many who voted for Bush for National Security reasons said that this incident really reminded them of what terrorists are capable of.

If anyone had listened to Clark back in 2000, there might not have been a Chechnya invasion...and maybe no Russian School tragedy in 2004....which helped Bush immensely more than many would like to acknowledge.

Whewwww....now I feel better.

[FrenchieCat]

102. Maybe I am not finished after all....Guess I'm "Hijacking" the Thread..LOL

But also don't forget that Wes Clark received the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2000, when it still meant something (before Bush gave it to Tenant, and the other incompetent fellows)...

Here are a few happy folks who are happy about Wes' handling of Kosovo....



The Presidential Medal of Freedom is awarded to people who have made especially meritorious contributions to U.S. national security, to world peace, or to cultural or other significant public or private endeavors. The medal may be bestowed on citizens of other nations and may be awarded posthumously.

“Wes Clark richly deserves the Medal of Freedom, not just for the outstanding job he did leading NATO in its first and only conflict, but for a lifetime of distinguished service in the United States Army and for the Department of Defense. He brings energy and imagination to foreign and security policy and will continue to serve his country with distinction. All of his new colleagues at CSIS celebrate his well-deserved honor,” said CSIS president and CEO John Hamre.

Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe from July 10, 1997, until May 3, 2000, joined CSIS August 1 as a distinguished senior adviser. He will work across the full range of the Center’s programs, concentrating particularly on international security. Clark was in overall command of NATO’s military forces in Europe and led approximately 75,000 troops from 37 NATO and other nations participating in ongoing operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo. He also helped to negotiate the Dayton Peace Accords. In 1999, Clark commanded Operation Allied Force, the alliance’s military response to the Kosovo crisis.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CJCRANE]

142. I still can't understand

why you guys didn't pick Wesley Clark. Here's a guy who's one of the most academically gifted, most decorated military veterans in the US, with the same voter-friendly Southern origins as Bill Clinton, proven international leadership and acclaim, progressive views etc.

All this "girly-man", "soft on defense" accusations that Democrats get landed with would have been blown out of the water if he'd run.

I would've thought that a guy who'd had "Head of State" status at NATO would have the same or more leadership experiance than a state governor or senator.

I dunno, I didn't see him much on TV, so maybe his charisma didn't translate to the small screen or something(?).

[Leilani]

146. As a Clark supporter, I agree with you completely.

Unfortunately, Clark got a late start, & when he didn't compete in Iowa, it hurt.

But more importantly, the Dems themselves were pretty rough on him. They used all the Republican talking points against him, & in the end, hurt a wonderful candidate.

The media didn't help either. They decided that Kerry & Edwards were the 2 that mattered, & marginalized or ignored everyone else. As Clark was winning in Oklahoma & taking 2nds elsewhere, they pretended he didn't exist.

All the things that made Kerry a loser, would have made Clark a winner.

[janx]

137. Oh for pete's sake!

This kind of rude behavior is totally uncalled for. It's not the other people in this thread who need to "get a grip."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Right, the only tolerable rude behavior is that of Dean's folks

you've all made that double standard well known on this board. Frankly, the comments by Dean's people even now demonstrate why he is divisive..so much to his own disadvantage he will never stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning

[TeacherCreature]

165. You guys will never get over it, will you?

"Electability" was the Kerry Kampaign's meme, and non-election was their final product.

I worked hard for your guy and still wish he could have won.

But it's over and we have to look to the future--and I see Dean playing a more significant role in that future than Kerry can or should play.

Time to move on. Vietnam is over, and it didn't work.

[IndianaGreen]

178. They hate Dean with the same blindness the RW hates Big Dog

No real basis in fact other than Dean is smarter, better looking, and more of a leader, than the candidate they supported.

Look at the ABB coalition. No one liked Kerry, and many did not trust him at all! The only reason they voted for Kerry is because they hated Bush more than they disliked Kerry. One must admit that Kerry's reckless and premature concession speech validated all of the concerns ABBers had about him.

ABB coalition is dead and buried, now let's go and find a real winner of a candidate that is antiwar and anti-PATRIOT, and not bore us to death with his endless nuances.

[LandOLincoln]

194. I don't hate Howard Dean

but get a grip, the guy is neither smarter nor better looking than any of the other Dem candidates.

Well, he may be marginally better looking than Sharpton or Kucinich...

[TeacherCreature]

143. Kerry SHOULD be finished as a Pres candidate at least

He caved too early in OHIO, IMHO.

Besides his whole case was based on "elecatbility" and he didn;t get elected.

I think nest time we mneed a while lot less talk about Vietnam and a whole lot more about he FUTURE of our country.

[Geek_Girl]

94. I would agree that Kerry is More Liberal than Reid

But I don't think Kerry has the balls that Reid has. I'm really hoping that Reid will fight and stand up to the Bush administration and I think he will.

[Redleg]

104. I agree.

[robbedvoter]

3. What interest?

[Maurkov]

5. Who?

Actually, I've been tuning out of almost all politics. Call it a defense mechanism; Some day I'll love again.

[Mira]

6. The tally is 51 to 49 as I write, that makes me laugh

I am finally really unhappy with how he has disappeared except for the letters his lawyers write.
He owes us way more than seeming abandonment.

[Birthmark]

7. I quit listening when he conceded.

He is just a Senator from MA. They should listen to him, probably, but I have two of my own Senators to think about.

[Seabiscuit]

78. Ditto. I helped get Barbara Boxer relected, and now I'm looking for

ways to replace Diane Feinstein with a real progressive.

Kerry who???

[mandyky]

9. Other - I lost interest on Nov 3rd

as he conceded. Obviously he is not the "fighter" I want "getting my back".

I don't believe shrub won the popular vote either, or the electoral one, due to fraud and other means. But it doesn't matter since our guy conceded..

[truebrit71]

19. Yup....what you said....

I guess "reporting for duty" meant something different to all of us than it did to Kerry....

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. I guess No Retreat No Surrender meant something different

too. Also I guess I don't really know what the Kerry definition of "I've got your back" is. Must be something different then my own. :shrug:

[Meme]

10. The point is he doesn´t do anything, or say anything

not anything that matters anyway. So yeah... I´m losing interest. Shouldn´t be too hard for him to figure out how to win my interest back though. Don´t just talk, actually say something!

[patricia92243]

11. Don't mean to trash him. Just see Kerry and Gore as "yesterday's news".

I honestly do not mean anything malicious or mean-spirited. I just wondered how many other people were beginning to feel the same way that I do.

[Geek_Girl]

95. I don't know Gore

Seems to have gotten in touch with his progressive side I hope he continues to speak out against the Bush administration and become a strong political voice.

[freeplessinseattle]

12. actually, I find my heart skipping a beat with excitement, I still

have faith, and do think he's a decent man, not ideal, but someone I truly do admire.

[grumpy old fart]

28. Great speaker....but put up or shut up time...

actually, time may already have passed considering the way this recount is being run.

[koffison]

13. Totally !

Absolutely !

[nosmokes]

14. john who?

50 million what?

left over???

i was planning on joing the green party after the elections anyhow, but his (in)actions just made a difficult action that much easier. pandering, slippery, say anything to get elected politician. now i even sorta liked the guy and worked my ass for him, but his lack of conviction in his answers to questions the first time they were posed just made me cringe. like the SUV question and answer. i knew we acedan uphill battle right then. whereas if he had just said,'yeah iown a suburban and we take it out hunting sometimes' we woulda won. and then to find out that there was $50m left in the basket at the end of the race!?! wtf was it being saved for? nah, i don't much care what he has to say, to tell ya the truth.

but lemme know if elizabeth edwards weighs in on something, will ya? that woman has some real life experience of what it means to be working and making ends meet in america and she knows what real values are, and if the democratic party puts her face out front they'll have a winner.

[FrenchieCat]

15. I seem to

have read something about him having his lawyers request that the voting machines being "padlocked" yesterday. Might be a little bit too little too late John? eh?

Just wake me up when he is throught pontificating......:boring:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sympleesmshn]

17. Yeah he is getting a little old

He just hasn't seemed that strong.
Has anyone seen this? The Swift boat guys will not leave him alone. http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4047&n=0&id=3914

[City Lights]

20. Not only in John Kerry, but in the entire process.

The Democrats have left a sour taste in my mouth, and I have to take a step back for awhile. I truly feel that it doesn't matter whether I vote or not. I'm not saying I'll stop voting, it's just that I can't shake the feeling that the entire system is rigged and nothing I do will change that.

[FrenchieCat]

32. Wasn't your DU name

also the name of John Kerry's campaign theme song? I think it was. Ironic, doncha think....cause what I saw was "instant" surrender.

[info being]

34. You can only fight for a leader who's engaged in that fight.

[City Lights]

36. Instant surrender from me or him?

I gave up rather quickly after I realized he and most of the other Democrats weren't interesting in making sure the votes were counted.

[FrenchieCat]

45. For us...

all, I guess.

Let me clearify though...
I found it ironic that Kerry's campaign song was actually the song "no surrender"....and then come to find out that he couldn't even wait at all to do so....He Didn't even give us the "day" he said that he would at least hold out until.

Just noticed that this also happens to be your DU handle. I understand why you wouldn't fight....but the leader of this party, John Kerry, certainly should have....at least for a hot minute. Don't know what it would have hurt?

[City Lights]

62. It was ironic that he folded up shop so quickly despite his

campaign song, and after promising to do the opposite. His actions took the wind out of my sails. I mean if he wasn't going to stand up for counting every vote and fighting the pigs, why the hell should I? I feel like I put my life on hold this Fall to do everything I could to oust that asshole, and for what?

I guess despite all my efforts to be cheery, I'm still pissed off and down in the dumps about the way things turned out. I've tried to put the entire mess on ignore.

I'll still fight the fascist chimp, but it sure gets depressing feeling like my part doesn't give a damn.

[FrenchieCat]

66. hear, here!

I second that thought!

[Logansquare]

23. Yes, although I'm still interested in John Edwards

He wasn't my first choice during the primaries, but he is still saying things that interest me.

[grumpy old fart]

27. Until I see the $$, he's got little cred with me.....

Why are the Glibs begging for gas cards, tape recorders, in their recount efforts? Kerry and the DNC are saying "count the votes", and doing very little help do it.

[Forkboy]

30. I'll still listen,the guy isn't Satan

maybe just a minion :evilgrin:

Seriously though kiddies,the man doesn't thrill me but he can still be a voice that's useful.

Of course,that's going to be up to him,and he didn't do himself any favors by wrapping things up faster than a horny rabbit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. I'm in complete agreement with your last sentence

I wasn't happy that he conceded so soon...I am simply AMAZED at the hatred for him expressed on this board... hell Bush gets an easier time on this board than Kerry...

[Forkboy]

40. A lot of people feel betrayed by him

Hence,to me anyways,the anger is totally understandable.

I personally didn't expect much to start with (raging pessimist that I am) so I'm not feeling let down.I expected all this :shrug:

[Demobrat]

48. I really don't understand why anybody would feel betrayed.

What did they expect? It's not like the guy ever actually stood for anything. He voted for the war to cover his ass politically, criticized it when he saw how it worked for Howard Dean, got labeled a flip-flopper, and rightly so, and lost. And people expected him to stand up and fight? In what universe?

[Kahuna]

195. Gotta agree with what you said. Kerry is just being Kerry...

He is still the same dude who did all those things you said he did. In twenty years in the senate he didn't provide leadership. It's really silly to expect it from him now.

Don't get me wrong everybody. I don't dislike him. I never did. I'd be walking on air if he was the president-elect instead of *. I think I can safely say that all of us would be walking on air.

[tjdee]

33. Perhaps you should separate Kerry supporters from others?

I mean, I didn't support Kerry in earnest until he was the apparent nominee. Even then a good deal of my support lie in the fact that he was the alternative to Bush (though he grew on me by a lot, especially after the debates).

So when he talks now, I'm not all a-titter. However, when Edwards talks (that's who I supported in the primaries) I am still very interested in what he's saying. Ditto for Clark (my other choice).

[JPace]

37. I watched Clinton depart and mourned his absence longer

than was probably reasonable. I hung onto Al Gores every word
until he shocked me by declining to run again. Now I guess I'll
keep hoping that Kerry will at least come forward and be someone
who will call this administration to accountability.

It does not look good so far, but it has been so long since we have had a fighter and a winner that I feel desperate. I do blame much of this on the right wing media who have marginalized the voice of progressives, and I blame our leadership for letting the media become owned by repugs. No one is going to win anything until we have some meaningful media on our side and the election machinery is safeguarded.

[Dark]

39. I really didn't listen to him that much before the election.

He's an ass, but he wasn't Bush, so I voted for him. That's democracy for you. . .

[Demobrat]

47. I tried. But I couldn't.

People can only drone on without saying anything for so long before I tune out completely.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. I will listen to John Forbes Kerry when he steps up to a mic and says

"I will not serve as President of the United States if I am correct, but this election, in the year 2004, was rife with fraud perpetrated by **them** (pointing to the Bush camp), and I am going to prove it. I am going to present this country with incontrovertible proof that election fraud was systemic, that voter suppression was systemic, that conspiracy to steal the election by any and all means, including criminal action, occurred. I am going to prove that George W. Bush is an illegitimate president. I do this for the good of the nation, and not for me. I will not serve as President. My demand, once what I am saying is proven beyond doubt, is that the country vote again - in a fair and monitored way - for a new slate of candidates. And I will not be one of those candidates. I endorse no one other than the American people. Our Constitution provides for the running of the country should any of our elected leaders be affected by the outcome of the charges I've made. Let the revelations begin."

Once the prosecutions are over, and the guilty are in jail, John Kerry will be a true hero, far, far beyond the hero status he already enjoys (and in my book, he *is* a hero already).

[Pithy Cherub]

49. What he said...

John Kerry out in front saying that would definitely get my attention! Until then...

[Seabiscuit]

80. Yes - what a wonderful pipe dream. But Kerry doesn't have the spine.

[Blue Shark]

60. n/t

Hear, hear!

[Demobrat]

46. I must be missing something.

What has Kerry said or done since the election that would merit the slightest bit of interest at all?

[DemOperative]

52. sent lawyers, guns and money to Ohio for one

and 250k to Washington for another.
It's not as if he's completely asleep at the wheel.

[Demobrat]

54. Was that before or after

somebody noticed how much cash he had "left over"?

[Tinoire]

176. Nope sorry. No money. Not a dime. Please back up your comment

if you're going to stand by it. He gave some money to Washington which despite the millions he had left from the election was about $200,000 short of what they needed- a sum and or the DNC could easily have given. He didn't give a dime to Ohio.

That was discussed in this thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1439425

You can claim he "helped" in Ohio but to say he gave money is incorrect.

[OneBlueSky]

51. well . . . given that he's not doing or saying much of anything . . .

I guess the answer would have to be yes . . . when I voted, I was voting for leadership . . . something the good senator has exhibited a dearth of since election day . . . damn shame, huh? . . .

[Vektor]

53. What's n/t?

Can someone please explain to this silghtly clueless new user what this means? Thank you. :-)

[Demobrat]

57. No Text

n/t

[Vektor]

58. Thank you!

n/t <- allriiiight. :headbang:

[geniph]

55. Who?

[lojasmo]

56. I lost interest in him with IWR and patriot act

My interest was briefly piqued when he cooked Bush during the debates, but He lost me again with his failure to follow up.

He'll never get my vote, or my work again.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. I can't watch him or listen to him but not for the reasons you might think

Seeing or hearing him makes me feel incredibly sad for what should have been and that's why I can't see him or hear his voice.

[Disturbed]

75. Swift Boat Liars

When Kerry didn't respond with a Law Suit I thought that's the end of his chances. That he conceeded that quickly wasn't inspirational either. I believe that he was a weak candidate that didn't really appeal to the Dem base. He was basically ABB.

[Vektor]

85. Ditto...

...but I still can't stay away. :cry:

[Queen Jane]

68. I'm curious...

I hate the chimp as much as anybody here, but where's the solid proof of fraud? Some of you keep talking and talking about "oh Kerry gave it away". Newsflash: this ain't 2000, guys. The fucker actually won the popular vote. And get this: it's customary to concede when you lose. I'll tell you one thing: you keep turning on your own, and you can welcome another generation of Republican government, and you can blame yourselves. I'll have no part of it.

[Blue Shark]

74. Queen....

...the Vote Tally was MANIPULATED. Have you followed the discussion at dKos by any chance? The evidence is massive. Good thing they bungled this like everything else they touched for four years.

[Queen Jane]

81. i have followed it to an extent...

but not completely. certainly i see evidence of tampering in numerous places. but what i don't see is anything that changes the outcome of this disastrous election. believe me, i wish it were there. if it is, tell me. but i havenm't seen it.

[sundancekid]

115. read the Moss v. Bush lawsuit pleadings linked at dKos ... there's enough

votes (over 100,000) that got credited to smarmysmirk by central tabulating fraud that should have been kerry's plus a few other gems that put the numbers squarely at kerry winning ohio ... when proven, that would be game, set, match ... HOWEVER, too many here on DU still don't get it that if kerry did/does anything other than what he's doing, the busheviks would go to the supremes, get a stop put to everything and the entire democratic world would be over ...

pay attention to the challenge the results lawsuit

[cidliz2004]

125. So again, HOW LONG is Kerry going to be fighting underneath

Radar detection? AND how much longer for something to come out of all of this "behind the scenes" working?

[XemaSab]

70. Never interested in Kerry

Can't lose an interest you never had.

[uppityperson]

77. What is John Kerry saying or doing?

I am losing interest in him saying and doing nothing. Flame away or show me what he is saying, not implying, but saying.

[Tansy_Gold]

92. No flames, uppity person. I'm with you

Someone up thread said something about ignoring all threads dealing with Kerry saying this or that, but I haven't seen any of those lately. I was out of DU touch for couple weeks after 11/2, so maybe there was a lot of stuff posted then, but seems to be Kerry has become as invisible after 11/2 as Gore was after 12/12.

As others have said, you can't follow a leader who doesn't lead, who takes himself back to his mansions and his uber-rich wife and his secure retirement while the rest of us gasp and strain to keep our heads above water.


Sorry for any mixed metaphors: I didn't abandon John Kerry, he abandoned me.

[KoKo]

88. NO! What John Kerry says is MOST IMPORTANT TO ME ...I worked and

voted for him. Until proven otherwise...he is and was the CANDICATE CHOSEN of OUR PARTY....what he says stands.

[catbert836]

90. Edwards

What about Edwards? Do you think he'll stay in the spotlight for a possible run at the Presidency? I mean, he's from the South...

[Geek_Girl]

97. I think He'll try

But it will be hard for him since he does not have a senate seat anymore.

[catbert836]

100. Time to Focus

Yeah, but that will give him some time to focus. He'll pribably write a book, do some speaking, be active unlike Gore. Take Nixon, for example, he was speaking for 8 years then became Prez.

[Leilani]

113. Comparing Edwards to Nixon's comeback?

Nixon had been a member of Congress, a Senator, & Veep for 8 years.

[Kilkenny5]

140. Being out of the Senate helps him

Makes him more of an outsider.

[MoonRiver]

91. He's lost all credibility for me.

But then I, almost, no longer consider myself a Democrat, so what do I know?? :shrug:

[kamqute]

93. I think he's a well-meaning anachronism--but he's the best we've got

[Geek_Girl]

96. I'm Interested In What John Kerry Says and does

Because he is basically an enigma to me. I still can't figure him out. Is he the real deal? I thought he may be but just have never been 100% convinced. So I watch and listen to hear what he has to say and maybe one day I'll figure it out.

After listening to Gore speak and meeting him, I came to the conclusion that he was the real deal. In some ways I mourn Gore's loss more than Kerry's.

[Leilani]

114. Interesting

The Plaid Adder wrote a very good essay, saying she knew Bush, could speak in his voice in her writings.

However, even though Kerry was her candidate, she didn't know him well enough to speak in his voice in her writings.

That's a big part of Kerry's problem...people don't connect with him, they don't know him & don't understand him.

[nightperson]

99. Yes.

I supported Kerry in the primaries but Dean is discussing stuff I care about.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

106. Thanks for being the perfect example of why I don't care

a freaking iota what John Kerry says anymore.

He Lets the Repugs shaft him with swifties and other lies.

Folded faster than I could believe.

His (primary) supporters continue to be obnoxious.

He lost because he deserved to lose, until he tells me otherwise.

RL

[zulchzulu]

107. Go back to sleep

Kerry has been working on finding out what happened in Ohio, Florida and other places since the election and his legal team are continuing to investigate the events and gather evidence.

He and those working with him have released many press releases on the events happening since his non-legally binding concession speech.

Blaming Kerry for other people lying about him is kind of funny, odd logic. Implying Kerry is doing nothing since November 2nd is foolish and proves that you are uninformed...whatever...

Don't pay attention. I bet it makes you feel good.

[RetroLounge]

127. No, but seeing your post deleted made me feel good.

Thanks

:hi:

RL

[zulchzulu]

128. My opinion still stands about those too lazy to figure out what's going on

It's curious to me to see how some people keep going with the LIE that Kerry and his legal team are doing nothing abut the election results...it reminds me of people who would rather believe what Faux Snooze says and does over what the real story is...a lot of similar levels of utter ignorance of the issues.

Ignorance is strength...I guess.

[Forkboy]

108. awwww....how sweet

:hug:

[Clarkie1]

109. He's the loser, so yes at this point he is pretty irrelevant; c'est la vi

[robbedvoter]

121. No, he's the winner who betrayed us. The only relevant thing about him

His epitaph: signed sealed and legitimized the last blow to democracy in US.

[Tinoire]

117. This thread is a perfect illustration of why we lost - Kerry fanatics

Yep... Despite the RESULTS OF THE POLL IN FRONT OF YOUR VERY EYES, we have people in this thread (some rudely screaming at the top of their lungs, others peddling their propaganda and others trying to brow-beat people into still standing next to Mr. "Electability non-Electability" because they think their ham sandwich is the most appetizing thing ever to grace a dinner table.

Question: Are you losing interest in what John Kerry says or does?

Poll result (205 votes)

1. Yes (133 votes, 65%)
2. No (68 votes, 33%)
3. Other (4 votes, 2%)

65% are telling you we are BORED STIFF with the tanned, wind-surfing-during-a-tornado man from Botox and you STILL plug your ears yelling nya nya nya nya nya- we can't hear you.

Absofuckinglutely A.M.A.Z.I.N.G.

Even more amazing is the refusal to accept that the result was the same with most of America because he started putting people to sleep before the DNC, the DLC and the RNC annointed him as the candidate.

But hell, just plug your ears, bury your heads a little deeper, remain in denial and jeep pumping up for a 2006 & 2008 disaster.

Too bad the people screaming the loudest right now didn't scream quite as loud when normal Democratic voters were condemning this war, the war votes, and the politicians who enabled it.

If people weren't dying for this shit, I'd find the denial hilarious.

[Borgnine]

122. Wow.

That pretty much sums up my feelings exactly. Kerry was one of the candidates I was least excited about during the primaries, but I fully jumped on the bandwagon when he was the nominee. Now that he's turned his back on us to save face, I couldn't care less.

[zulchzulu]

129. This pathetic message brought to you by...

...someone who probably backed someone who had a rat's chance in hell of beating Bush in the General election.

Talk about denial.

[unfrigginreal]

131. "rat's chance in hell of beating Bush"

Yeah, thank God you guys showed us the way to salvation. I know that I sure won't miss Bush.

Oh, wait...

[Forkboy]

138. LOL

Every other candidate is an ass for losing but we're supposed to fellate Kerry for doing the same thing.

[Tinoire]

141. This reality post brought to you by someone sticking to the facts

Question: Are you losing interest in what John Kerry says or does?

Poll result (243 votes)

1. Yes (164 votes, 67%)
2. No (75 votes, 31%)
3. Other (4 votes, 2%)


Show me the denial again?

THE HAM SANDWICH HAD LITTLE APPEAL THEN AND HAS EVEN LESS APPEAL NOW.

Trouble seems to be that the Primaries and the election are over and you can't shut us up anymore. We have 3 years to undo the damage that was done by the DLC and the people who enabled this disastrous election and I guarantee you people like me won't be sitting on our ass. We are going to SPEAK OUR MIND, we are going to FIGHT and we are going to EXPOSE the filth so we can TAKE OUR PARTY BACK.

The flip-flopping nuance shit to protect corporate interests just ain't gonna cut it anymore.

Love you too. :smooch:

[jonnyblitz]

145. good to see you posting here again Tinoire!!!

:hug: :hi:

[Tinoire]

150. Hi Johnnyblitz!

It's good to see so many old faces still here. Thank you for that :hug:

[zulchzulu]

151. Tell me who you voted for in the primaries and I'll tell you why he lost

Answer me. By the way, you do have your Roveish points down very well.

Flip-flopping? Nuance? Explain...

[Tinoire]

154. Naw, I'd rather stick to the point

Tell me how you feel about the 68% figure in the poll.

I realize it must sting but you can tell us :)

[JNelson6563]

187. You are no fun!

Geez Tinoire! If you don't let the Bots change the subject how can they disregard ugly facts??


You are so unfair! Wahhhh!!

;-)

Julie

[IndianaGreen]

181. Ironic that it was Lieberman who first referred to Kerry as a flip-flopper

when he called him "Senator Waffles." What do you call his concession speech but a flip-flop after promising to fight for every vote?

[Kahuna]

196. Lieberman wasn't first. I called kerry "wishy washy" long before..

General Clark entered the campaign. Why? Because he is. That's why I didn't support him during the primaries. He may be well meaning and I don't doubt that he is. But I envisioned the playbook the bushies would use against Kerry long before he landed the nomination. The Kerry camp should have envisioned it too, and got the jump on *. No way should they have allowed Kerry to be branded, "flip-flopper." when * is the king of saying one thing and doing another.

[Castilleja]

159. You said it, Tinoire

Absolutely.

[Fleurs du Mal]

118. Long ago I'm afraid

[Piperay]

123. Yes, I've been skipping

over Kerry threads just about entirely since he conceded.

[zulchzulu]

130. Have you been skipping on the news about how Kerry is looking at...

...the election fraud with his legal team since the legally non-binding concession speech too?

It's funny to see how people have been ignoring the dozen or so press releases and other announcements from Kerry and the legal team concerning the election but then say stupid, ignorant garbage that Kerry is "doing nothing".

Pathetic...

[Piperay]

144. I never said anything "about

Kerry doing nothing" but the election is over with, it's done and we are stuck with chimp so I am not torturing myself with what could have been.

[zulchzulu]

153. Good for you, but appears to be a pattern here

The usual Kerry trashers who backed candidates that couldn't win more than one state in the primaries (blame that on the DLC and their hopped-up hypnotic machines that mind-melded millions of voters to robotically vote for Kerry) are set on the idea that if they just ignore the actual efforts by Kerry and his legal team, they could proclaim that he is doing "nothing" about the post-election fraud.

Get it?

Ignore the evidence and then say there is NO evidence. Pretty convenient...and a lot like Faux Snooze-watching Repugs.

[Kahuna]

148. Me too. Like, why bother?

:shrug: Phish!

[JNelson6563]

124. John Who??

*yawn*

[barb162]

132. I haven't read anything much (not much in the media about what

he's been doing)

[Kitsune]

133. I had little to begin with and far less now. *nt*

[bush_is_wacko]

134. Yes, but only because

the fight now is really not about putting him in the WH! It is about election fraud, finding irrefuteable proof of it and making sure it will never happen in this country again! The upside of all that may be seeing some bigshot rethug heads roll, but I do not think it will put Kerry in the WH. I really don't see how our constitution provides that remedy for us, unless of course we can trace the criminal activity to EVERY member of our current administration in line to inherit the "throne," so to speak. I don't like *, but I also don't think he is really stupid enough to leave a trail implicating him, personally, behind. The rethugs will find a patsy and we will just have another lame note in the history books about some guy, like Ollie North, that got blamed for some small criminal activity and * will probably find a way to exonerate him so he can disappear from our minds! I geuss there is a slim possibility that the supreme court or some other entity could declare the entire election null and void, but I'm not counting on ANYONE being THAT stand up! Politicians aren't generally willing to create a constitional crisis. I think they ALL fear the ramifications of something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but recent remarks have led me to believe either Kerry doesn't have the fight left in him he had as a young man, or others are holding him back. I have to admit, I flip-flop on this issue, probably because the suppression of this story seems almost complete in my eyes. Believe me, there is virtually no mention of anything even resembling what I see going on in internet conversations in my state! The same thing happened in 2000! That's what has me worried. If no Senator has stepped forward yet to say he/she will contest the electoral vote by now, I don't think it's going to happen.

[The Zanti Regent]

135. He made his BONESMAN deal with Bush

sadly, thousands more young men and women are going to die.

[zulchzulu]

152. I'd love to get you a nice new tinfoil hat for Christmas

Where do I send it to...the one you have is really used.

[The Zanti Regent]

156. Send it to the VA cemetery where my only child is buried.

and send it as a present from the Bonesmen, the ones who filled his head with lies about Iraq and 9/11, the ones who brainwashed him to kill, the ones who abandoned him when his spine was severed with a bullet, the ones who let him suffer in agony before he died.

My only child, sent to die by Bonesmen Bush & Kerry!

[Tinoire]

158. So sorry Zanti

:hug:

My heart goes out to you and thanks you for speaking your mind. More people need to understand the collaboration taking place at the top so we can break the pattern. :hug:

[zulchzulu]

172. Wow...

If that's true, my heartfelt sympathy to you and your family for your loss. I hope all is as good as can be expected with such a tragedy.

[JaneEyrez]

189. I absolutely agree with YOU!

Kerry was not supposed to come as close to winning as he did, but they were hedging their bets. This time they couldn't lose, but they still wanted Bush in charge because their agenda is easier to sell through him. People would have a more difficult time buying it from an apparent liberal. So sorry about your personal loss. I am very angry about all the dead and maimed military and innocent Iraquis sacrified for the greed and arrogance of the powers that be.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

139. Lost interest when he voted for the war.

Held my nose and voted for him, well, against Bush. For all the good it did to waste my vote on a weak candidate on a weak platform.

[janx]

147. I believe....I....I believe...

I don't know what I believe.

[Chicago Democrat]

157. Hey John, Shove it!

We should have gone with Dean.

[FrenchieCat]

161. or more preferrably ....

WES CLARK
"RED DOG" DEMOCRAT IN '08

Won't take any Sh*t, AND...will kick ass in Red States

[Chicago Democrat]

162. Yeah, trust Madonna...

I'll go with that...

Kerry! Now I remember why SENATORS SUCK AS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES!!!!!!!!


(regarding JFK, all his flaws were because of his hubris, just like Kerry)

[FrenchieCat]

164. And don't forget

Michael Moore....

He knew the enemy better than most. He knew what it would take.

He didn't endorse Wes Clark "just because".....

[IndianaGreen]

182. Wes Clark would not have conceded before all the votes were counted!

and he had more ribbons than Kerry, and no one questioned his credentials.

[Paulie]

163. John Kerry WHO???

Bueller? Bueller?? Bueller???

Mr. Invisible.....

If he has my back, it explains all the pain in the backside.....

[Laurab]

169. No, quite frankly I'd love to hear him say something...

ANYTHING about the election fraud. He's been oddly silent. But, ya know - so have all the other "heroic" former candidates that are being praised here, while everyone is trashing Kerry. It would be so heartwarming to hear just one of them - any one of them, say something, anything, even just something dismissive of it. If just ONE of them stood up and talked about it, he'd get my vote. Yet, as the saying goes "the silence is deafening".

I believe Kerry and Edwards are fighters, and smart ones at that. I also believe the democrats have been flooded with our pleas/comments/complaints. They cannot be ignoring it. It's getting so redundant, but again, I don't think Kerry had any real choice but to concede, if he didn't want to be turned into a laughingstock by the right wing. At this point in time, I don't think anyone knows or doesn't know exactly what he's doing, and I certainly don't understand the attacks people are making, when they can't possibly know if he is or is not working beneath the radar to ensure all votes are counted. My guess is that he is, but he is doing it in an intelligent way - gathering facts before any accusations are made.

I reserve my judgement until all the recounts are through, all the court cases decided, and all the legal questions are answered. No one knows for sure what is or isn't being done, and I just can't understand the attacks on Kerry when there is no way we can really know what he is or isn't doing. He can't accomplish anything at all without facts or proof, but he could make himself look real stupid if he tried to.

[hansolsen]

171. John Kerry on the stump was about as inspiring as cold oatmeal. I had to

hold my nose to vote for him in spite of his vote for IWR, and his failure to confront Bush on issues of character. Kerry's campaign challenged Bush's competence but not his character, and that was a fatal mistake.

I will not support John Kerry in 2008, even if he is the nominee, and I don't care if he is running against Jeb Bush or Tom Delay. I have cast one ABB vote and I swore that would be my last. That is one promise I will keep.

I believe I am not alone.

[LittleClarkie]

173. I will indeed vote for him in 2008 if he is the nominee

For I find him a good and honorable man.

I believe I am not alone either.

And, if we truly lost, people ask why? They blame it on Kerry? You can't sell what you don't believe in, folks. ABB was never going to be enough.

People denegrate Edwards for not pulling in his home state. Well, let's spread the blame around shall we? Give some to Kerry, give some to Edwards, some to Cahill, to the Swiftees, but then get up and look in the mirror. You get some too. We were all in this together.

[hansolsen]

175. I agree he is a good and honorable man and does not deserve all the

blame for the election loss. The same could be said for Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Michael Dukakis, and so on. This Party now needs a strong leader. John Kerry did not lead. He campaigned, but he did not lead.

[michaelwb]

186. What gets me....

Even the Kerry defenders say things like it's not his fault because he got bad advice. And WHO chose to take that advice. If I wanted a candidate who can't take responsibility for their own decisions we already have one in the White House.

During the primaries we were told we shouldn't criticize Kerry because he's the only electable candidate. Once he led in the primaries and was the candidate we were told we couldn't criticize Kerry because he was the candidate and that would be helping Rove. Now that the election is over we are told we can't criticize Kerry because it's over and we should focus on the future...besides his campaign wasn't his fault anyway.

So some folks have adopted the neo-con view that their leaders aren't responsible for their actions and we can NEVER criticize them because it helps the enemy.

Gheesh.

[PallasAthena]

183. He wasn't my ideal choice, but I voted for him.

He would have been OK as president (not just in comparison to Bush, who could make a baloney sandwich seem like an elder statesman), but my heart belongs (belonged?) to Howard Dean. While I don't think we can "blame" Kerry for how the campaign went (we no longer have a free press -- including broadcast/cable media), and I'm not sure that any candidate could have survived whatever dirty tricks the Rove Gang would have unleashed to win; I kind of think that Dean (or Edwards) could have really given people someone to be excited and enthusiastic about, rather than someone they could simply tolerate.

At this point, he does seem pretty irrelevant, I'm afraid. More frighteningly, anyone who's not a neocon is pretty invisible these days.

[seito]

188. Kicking in light of recent events

I think, maybe, some of you were not being entirely honest in this poll. :spank:


There seems to be quite a bit of interest in John Kerry tonight

JMHO

[Larkspur]

190. I voted "Other" because John Kerry is a Bore!

and I never had much interest in what he said.

Kerry should just fade into oblivion, where he belongs, and not pull an Adlai Stevenson in 2008.

[MissBrooks]

192. He wasn't my choice...

He wasn't my choice from the beginning.

[Obviousman]

193. Unless he gets some fire in his belly

who really cares?
William Donohue

[xerenthar]

199. Absolutely. A failed candidate won us 4 more years of Bush.