all I can say is...Wow and ...we knew it was coming.

[graywarrior]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/19/democrats_eye_softer_image_on_abortion/

[htuttle]

1. That's an unworkable position

You can't triangulate on a black and white issue like abortion rights.

You can try, but you will fail and lose supporters from both sides.

When they say, "don't change any positions, but reach out to anti-abortions voters," isn't that just coming right out and saying, "We're going to try to do a sales job on them"? Nobody will want to hear it.

[blondeatlast]

11. "Sales job." Nailed it. Let them start their own damn party.

This is precisely the reason we lose--we let the other side define our message.

Let pro-womb Dems start their own party, dammit--the vast majority of us support safe, legal abortion.

[MaineDem]

13. Safe, legal, and RARE

Isn't that what Kerry was saying?

There's a big difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion.

I'm very upset with Nancy Pelosi right now.

[blondeatlast]

14. Exactly, we are the party that works to eliminate the need. nt

[DaveinMD]

54. that's not what Kerry said

its what Clinton said. Clinton was great on this issue. NOt only did he stand up for choice, but he reduced abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies.

[Geek_Girl]

76. Exactly and Yet I have to explain that

to every single pro-life person. Why aren't democrats pointing that out? Abortion has actually increased under the Bush presidency.

[Telly Savalas]

138. If you outlaw abortion only outlaws will have abortions

I think you can triangulate the abortion issue, but not necessarily the way some bigwigs in the DNC want to do it. The position would be we think abortions are bad, but as a last resort in reproductive choice it is essential that women have free access to a safe means of terminating a pregnancy. The way we reduce the number of abortions isn't by forcing them to be done in back alleys with clotheshangers, but rather to implement comprehensive family planning and sex ed programs that will prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place. The GOP's puritan approach to these issues fails as is evidenced by the fact that the number of abortions has gone up under Bush, and also by the fact that Red States have higher teen pregnancy rates than do the Blue. We can reduce the number of abortions if we take an approach that recognizes today's realities. Prohibition and denying women their reproductive rights isn't the answer, smart family planning is.

Obviously such rhetoric isn't going to win us Wyoming, but by demonstrating that we recognize the concerns of so-called "pro-lifers", we might make a few inroads in Red areas. In particular, if we incorporate such a position into a progressive agenda that promotes programs that help kids, then some of the "pro-lifers" (in the sense Dean speaks of) might feel more at home in the Democratic Party than the GOP. The point is to sell our principles to the public without selling them out.

That said, caving on the issue of late-term abortions is a bad idea. Most late-term abortions are not done as a means of birth control, but rather due to medical emergencies. Taking the choice to use this procedure out of the physicians hands is the oppressive policy of an intrusive government.

[ThorsHammer]

139. Pro-life here, and I agree

What you said is something that should be appealing to most on both sides (you're never going to get the super far right, who want no abortions). Comprehensive family planning, good sex ed programs, making contraception easily available, etc would almost certainly decrease the number greatly, thus pleasing most pro-lifers. At the same time, those on the pro-choice side aren't caving in either, and the women themselves are spared from making a difficult decision. I don't think there is any solution that pleases everyone, but something like this would do the most good without requiring either side to give up their beliefs. I do think programs like this could get the more moderate pro-life people to vote democrat (FWIW, I voted K/E).

On a broader scale,I would also like to see issues like healthcare, the economy, education, etc. adressed. These also have a large impact on abortions (Clinton-Bush comparison), and are areas where the Democrats can attack the GOP big time.

[juliagoolia]

150. In fact you can.. MORE CHOICES not pro-choice

The object is to offer more choices to women.

More choices at birthcontrol, more choices in emergency contraception, and more choices if she decides not to abort. I think if young women were more able to care for children and had supports there would be less abortion. I also think the only other options currently open to young women who are not prepared financially or emotionally to care for a child is "forced adoption", or "forced parenthood" where a child ends up in a bad situation, either financially(usually the reason) or emotionally.

We simply must offer more choices.

Its not pro-choice only Its a matter of more options.
The result will be less abortions.

Suppose the young woman has the option of having her child in a foster home that is fully open to her and allows full access to her child, while she goes to school etc and then when she is ready (if she has kept a relatioinshp with the child) she takes over full custody of her own child?. This is just an idea for discussion.

I am sure more ideas are out there. We need more supports for young women, less shame and guilt, and better opportunity for them to keep their children. Forced adoption is insane on so many levels.

If it just comes down to it being a fact that she does not want to give birth period then she should be allowed that simple choice early on in the pregnancy. If her personal health is an issue then that has to be more important.

The life of a viable living breathing person has to take priority over the non-viable potential of a possible life.

[henslee]

2. "Republicans are pro womb, not pro-life" Because once the kid is born...

its denied everything from health services to a decent education."

Who was the first to come up with this mantra. Its so good.

Oh look, a LBN thread to support my point...

HEALTH CARE GAP THREATENS DETROIT BABIES....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1084044

And oh yeah, FUCK PELOSI AND REID.

[greenohio]

104. Dean likes the "pro-life" term too.

He embraces pro-lifers.

[propagandafreegal]

140. Women don't need any party to protect their wombs. This is bananas nm

[JohnOneillsMemory]

141. Reid sez he'd support Scalia as Chief Justice of the SCOTUS!

With Dems like this, who needs Repubs?

Scalia has said he believes in the Divine Right of Kings and that democracy gets in the way of God's will so believers like him need to correct it.

I'm not kidding.

He also said that even if a person is innocent, the state can execute them as long as the trial procedures were correctly followed.

I'm not kidding.

Religious psychosis is the problem we face, not a woman's right to control her own body or same gender committed relationships.

[NMDemDist2]

3. i really hate a cryptic post that expects me to clink a link with out the

faintest clue what it's about

:evilgrin: no offense there warrior

[graywarrior]

5. I. Will. Bitch. Slap. You!!!!!

:+

[pnutchuck]

4. Are their any lines left that the Democrats haven't crossed

in order to be more moderate?

[KansDem]

130. Yeah, I expecting to see any day now these headlines...

"Democrats embrace illegal, immoral war for oil and empire building"

or

"Democrats acknowledge corporations are people, too!"

or

"Democrats cite rare study showing correlation between poor people and laziness"

or

"Democrats now ready to replace 10 Amendments with 10 Commandments"

[okieinpain]

146. well you have to face the facts. dems are getting their asses kicked on

abortion. it's really hard to argue pro-abortion, and not look like some kind of monster. let me put it like this, my child was put in a terrible position, and had to make that choice. that was 4 years ago, and you can see she still struggles with it.

[MaineDem]

6. Can you give us a hint...?

Thanks

[luaneryder]

7. Democrats eye softer image on abortion

snip>
WASHINGTON -- Leading Democrats, stung by election losses, are signaling they want the party to embrace antiabortion voters and candidates, softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue.

House minority leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat who is one of the most ardent supporters of abortion rights in Congress, has encouraged Tim Roemer, a former representative with a strong voting record against abortion, to run for the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee. The Democrats' new Senate minority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, opposes abortion rights.

No prominent Democrat has suggested that the party change its long-held stance that a woman should have the right to an abortion if she chooses. But as Democrats assess what went wrong for them in November, some are urging a "big tent" approach that is more welcoming to those who oppose abortion. Democrats say that attitude might be especially useful with Hispanics, a critical constituency that tends to be Roman Catholic and whose majority support for Democrats has slipped in recent elections.

Abortion rights activists are alarmed at the potential shift in the party's approach to the issue as they look warily ahead to Supreme Court nomination fights and efforts in Congress to restrict abortion. But Democratic leaders say they can reach out to voters in the "red states," which voted Republican in November, without compromising their party platform on abortion.

[MaineDem]

8. Thank you

:)

[Walt Starr]

9. The PNAC/DLC has so compromised this party

it may not be salvagable.

Roemer gets the DNC chair, I'm done with this fucked up party because it will be no different from the republicans.

[LittleClarkie]

20. Is Dean DLC now

Note he's talking the same way in the article.

[PassingFair]

22. Dean taken WAY out of context on this one..

don't have the link, but lifted from MTP recently. First, Dean reiterated the pro-choice stand, then he talked about reframing the debate. Pro-life as a lifelong adverb.

[sandnsea]

24. That's what the article said

Same thing as Dean. Reframe the debate. Move away from only advocating pro-choice to talking about other pregnancy issues.

[madfloridian]

38. No, please read my two long posts here today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1441158

[LittleClarkie]

27. Which is what I'm convinced Kerry was saying too

but then those who don't like Kerry just said "To hell with him!"

I promise to give Dean the benefit of the doubt as to reframing, if you will do the same for Kerry. No eating our own?

Really, I'm ready to give all the candidates the benefit of the doubt except possibly Leibermann.

Sound like a plan?

[saracat]

32. NO.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Particular reason?

nm

[saracat]

39. No softening of the posiiton on abortion. This leads to trouble.

We had this debate in the seveniies. I don't want to have to refight for my rights as a human female. You can't reframe this . I have a right or I don't . You can't be both for and against murder and the pro lifers think of this as murder. Period. They could only go against their concience so long before they would be moving to outlaw abortion. This :"softening ' builds the pro life ranks. I could give a fuck what they believe about the economy if they are pro life. If we welcome these people our party is dead.

[LittleClarkie]

45. I thought reframing meant not putting the emphasis on it alone

Reminding folks that pro-life is also anti-war. Pro-life for me means what it means for Clinton "safe, legal and rare."

Abortion is not a good thing. No one wants more women to have abortions. They want women to have the right to have one, but that doesn't mean we cheer for increased numbers.

I would like it if the Dem Party talked more about safe sex and prevention. This is why the Missionaries to the Pre-born and anti-contraceptive Catholics bug me. They don't want you to have an abortion, but they don't want you preventing pregnancies either. That is the indefensible stance in my eyes.

The two concepts are not opposite. You can be a pro-life pro-choice person. That is the choice. If I don't get to chose pro-life, then there is no choice, and pro-choice is a lie.

If I am presented with the decision, I will be pro-life. I do not deny others their choice. I resent being told by either side that my stance is not valid. And I cheered Kerry for having the same stance. I believe Edwards was in this boat too, but I'm not sure. I seem to remember something from the VP debate...

That's my story, anyway.

[countryjake]

56. You know why you resent being told your stance isn't valid?

You're a female, right? Do you feel that your opinion, your voice is just as important as any other person's in this country? Not sure how old you are, but you must know that there was a time in this country when females who could not keep their marriages together were looked down upon. Also, females who put seeking a career over motherhood were treated with scorn. Young women who felt discovering their sexual identity wasn't something that had to wait until marriage were ostracized. And finding yourself with an unwanted pregnancy was something to be ashamed of. Do you agree that all of these things are valid reasons for condemnation of a female?

If not, then know that these discriminations are not from the ancient history of our country...it was only 25/30 years ago; in some locales, all of these sentiments still hold true. Why? Because some people still hold to the notion that women are not quite as competent to think for themselves (too emotional), can't be depended on to make important decisions (not logical), aren't physically able to take care of themselves (weak), & inherently have a knack for sustaining familial relationships (subservient).

Now whether or not you agree that females do have these traits, because of some religious belief or the course your own life has taken, it is, in fact a myth & there are many women who have proven it wrong & resent the implications it represents. They view themselves as equal members of society, due all of the rights to liberty & privacy which a democratic government must provide.

You say that abortion is not a good thing. I would guess that's because you feel that people have souls. Nothing wrong with that, it's your right, but not everyone in this country holds to that belief. Do you also feel that a woman who simply wants to end a pregnancy, for whatever reason, is less of an equal person in this country, that it's not important to consider her opinion or her voice...that her stance is not valid, as you put it (in reference to yourself)?

People can teach & talk all they want about safe-sex, prevention, & abstinence. Birth-control is not foolproof. The fact is that there is nothing so crushing to a woman than finding herself with an unwanted pregnancy, with no option to end it, if she so chooses.

[LittleClarkie]

58. Actually when I said that abortion was not a good thing

I wasn't thinking specifically about spirituality. I was thinking about the emotional and physical toll it takes on a woman. I know from experience with an aquaintance that there is a limited number of abortions your body can handle.

I understand that birth control is not foolproof, and can not be relied upon alone. I am not an absolutist. I understand that there is a possibility that a woman will see illegal, unsafe means to end a pregnancy if need be. But I'd still like to see more resources allocated to prevention. Eh, can't hurt, might help.

As I say, I am not against a woman's right to choose. I would choose differently, less again because of the spiritual aspect, but more because as soon as something becomes a separate entity that wasn't there 5 minutes ago, I'm not thrilled with the idea of not considering it a being. But, as I say, my choice.

I don't believe in telling another woman what she should think and do. I do believe in expanding the discussion of "pro-life" to include anti-war, anti-poverty, pro-health care and the like.

There has to be a way to break the cycle of one side trying to rule the dialogue. "You're pro-abortion!" "No! You're pro-fetus" "You're anti-choice!" "You're pro-murder." Who is winning in that particular war of pro and anti?

I do see where you're coming from though. Thank you for taking the time to spell out what you believe in such a thoughtful, civil manner.

I'm 41, by the way. Old enough to remember. Hence, pro-choice.

[NoPasaran]

125. Dean's comments on abortion from MTP

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the issue of abortion. The Newsweek reports that John Kerry went to a Democratic meeting to thank his supporters, and they asked him what he had learned from the past campaign. And he said, "We have to find a different way to deal with the issue of abortion in terms of explaining the Democratic position, and we have to find a way to bring in right-to-life Democrats back into the Democratic Party." Could you conceive of a way the Democratic Party could say to mainstream ethnic voters, "We're a different Democratic Party. We may look at perhaps the whole idea of parental notification in terms of abortion. We may look at banning it in the third trimester." Is there a way the Democrats could change their vocabulary on abortion?

DR. DEAN: We can change our vocabulary, but I don't think we ought to change our principles. The way I think about this is--and it gets into the gay marriage stuff, too. We're not the party of gay marriage. We're the party of equal rights for all Americans. You know, I signed the first civil unions bill in America, and four years later the most conservative president the United States has seen in my lifetime is now embracing what I signed. We've come a long way. We're not the party of abortion. We're the party of allowing people to make up their own minds about medical treatment. It's just a different way of phrasing it. We have to start framing these issues, not letting them frame the issues.

I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children. That's what you so often lack on the Republican side. They beat the drums about being pro-life but they forget about life after birth. And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats. I think we want them in our party. We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue.

MR. RUSSERT: And if you became chairman of the party, you would actively reach out to pro-life Democrats?

DR. DEAN: In my campaign, supposedly this liberal campaign, we had a number of pro-life people. Our campaign really is a reform campaign. Now, there were a lot of progressive people, and I believe in progressive issues, but what we're trying to do is reform America. We're trying to have health-care reform, we're trying to have election reform, campaign finance reform. We're certainly trying to reform the borrow-and-spend habits of this administration, which is the most spendthrift administration in my lifetime in America. This supposedly conservative administration can't hold on to a dollar, let alone a taxpayer dollar. So we want real reform and I want the Democratic Party to stand for reform.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6702005/

[saracat]

37. Dean has ALWAYS been a member of the DLC.

[madfloridian]

40. When he was governor. He is not a favorite of theirs now.

He attacked them, and he is persona non grata.

[saracat]

43. I didn't say he was a favorite. He is still a member.

And I am disappointed in his recent comments. I am also disappointed in Kerry. I have serious rethinking to do.

[madfloridian]

47. Show me a link.

.

[saracat]

149. There isn't proof that Kerry is a current member either and yet he is.

[LittleClarkie]

49. And yet he doesn't get slammed during the DLC rants

I don't know why.

Kerry is the "DLC candidate" and represents what's wrong with the DLC, and the DLC is the enemy, and yet I don't see that ever touch Dean. Maybe I just don't pay attention.

[Guaranteed]

66. That's because he's NOT.

Dean and the DLC are now arch-enemies- in case you didn't notice.

[greenohio]

69. Does an anti-war position give you a pass on all other issues?

Dean disagrees with DLC on the war. Thats about it. He agrees with them on NAFTA and now "welcoming" anti-choicers to the party. Talk about abandoning your base, union workers and the pro-choice movement.

[Guaranteed]

74. Agrees with them on NAFTA?

What, are just making shit up, now?

Dean wants to change NAFTA to force other countries to increase their living and environmental standards- which is exactly what needs to happen. I'd be VERY surprised if the DLC agreed with that, considering how that would affect their corporate sponsors. In fact, I'd be surprised if they had a position on NAFTA at all- my guess is that they avoid it at all costs.

[greenohio]

89. You really should do your homework before you type.

"I learned an enormous amount coming from a small Northeastern state, who benefited from NAFTA and free trade, both of which I supported - I supported NAFTA and I supported China’s entry into the WTO. And we benefited from that -- our trade with Canada went up 400% as a result of the free trade agreement which was the predecessor of NAFTA. "


http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Gridiron_Speech_6March_2004.htm

He wants to change it NOW, after it is law of course. JUST LIKE THE DLC.

[Guaranteed]

91. DERRRR yeah I KNEW Dean's positions.

Tell me something NEW- like...oh, the DLC WANTS IT TO CHANGE???

Yes, THAT is news.

[greenohio]

101. Lets take DLCer Kerry's position for example:

"Kerry talks a lot about how he thinks those trade agreements should be revised. That may be enough given the dislike Democratic voters have for Bush in northeast Ohio,"

Wow. Sounds like Dean. How can this be....Kerry is DLC?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-03-14-kerry-nafta_x.htm

[Guaranteed]

103. Maybe that's because Kerry stole Dean's platform for the

campaign, bits and pieces throughout, and damned near the whole thing toward the end.

You're right, that is an odd coincidence. I give Kerry a lot of credit for being smart enough to do that. Of course, that's no thanks to his DLC handlers, so you shouldn't assume that that's representative of the DLC policy.

It does kind of seem like you're having a bit of troubling finding that "policy." I told ya- they avoid it like the plague.

Keep looking.

[greenohio]

106. Cause Dean did SO WELL in the primaries? Give me a break.

So what you are saying that if Kerry takes a position that agrees with Dean, then he took it from Dean.

Do you have gravity on your planet?

[Guaranteed]

109. LOL he did it OVER and OVER, from the beginning to the end.

Yes, Dean's positions were just that good. He just didn't have any war medals to hide behind.

Too bad. Another four years of Bush.

[greenohio]

113. "Dean's positions were just that good" which is why he triumphed in the

primaries. How many states did he win?

[Guaranteed]

116. No, I just TOLD you that Dean didn't have any war medals to hide behind.

You know, Kerry could have won the WHOLE THING (wow, imagine that) if he'd just listened to Dean back in 2002.

[greenohio]

117. And embrace pro-life Dems, support NAFTA and fight gun control?

Oh yeah and call him self a fiscal CONSERVATIVE.

Hypocrites.

[Guaranteed]

119. It's NOT supporting NAFTA, YES on fighting gun control

HUGE yes on that.

And making an argument to pro-life Dems. If Kerry had said "embrace" them, we would have crucified him. Although he did say things very much LIKE that during the second debate.

[greenohio]

123. "I supported NAFTA and I supported China’s entry into the WTO."

"I learned an enormous amount coming from a small Northeastern state, who benefited from NAFTA and free trade, both of which I supported - I supported NAFTA and I supported China’s entry into the WTO. And we benefited from that -- our trade with Canada went up 400% as a result of the free trade agreement which was the predecessor of NAFTA... "

"I don’t think we ought to look at this as a way of pushing protectionism, because protectionism is a mistake. "

H. Dean

It is hard to make the case for change when you are saying that your state benefited from the legislation. Yes he calls for some changes, but he is totally against protecting our industries and union laborers. GIVE IT UP!

[Guaranteed]

124. NOTICE THE PAST TENSE.

TWO DIFFERENT POSITIONS, HERE!

[greenohio]

128. Yes. When it was up to vote, he supported it. When running for pres

he wants revision.... just like John Kerry.

Of course the winner of the primaries was copying Dean, not the other way around. Everyone follows Deans lead because of his overwhelming primary performance.

[Guaranteed]

132. No, ten years LATER, seeing the RESULTS, he wants to change it.

When dealing with economics, that's called being smart.

[greenohio]

133. So it took DEAN 10 years to realize NAFTA was bad? It didn't take me

that long. Did it take you that long?

[Guaranteed]

134. I'm sure it didn't. But that's when he happened to be campaigning

for the presidency of the United States.

[greenohio]

70. SO DEAN WANTS MORE ANTI-CHOICERS IN THE PARTY.

And again I see it posted above the Dean once was DLC. Could it be true? Could Howard Dean have flaws?

[Guaranteed]

75. He wants them voting for our representatives- but not on our BILLS. nt

[greenohio]

90. Thats right, we can't be watered down. More anti-choicers in the party

won't increase their voice... or move us right.

The inconsistancy is enormous. If a DLCer was saying this you guys would be on him like flys on Dean.

[Guaranteed]

92. There's a HUGE difference between PANDERING,

CHANGING POSITIONS and, as Dean said, and I QUOTE, having a "respectful dialogue" between pro-lifers and Democrats.

Let me translate for you, since you're having trouble:

He's telling us to MAKE AN ARGUMENT.

[greenohio]

94. opening a dialog" between pro-lifers and Democrats...

If a DLCer was to say we should open a dialog with "pro-lifers" there would be NO mercy. Give it up.

If a DLCer was to "embrace pro-life" Dems they would be flamed.

Giving "Pro-lifers" a "home" in the Democratic party is not making an argument.

The inconsistency here is ENORMOUS. Hypocrites.

[Guaranteed]

95. It just differences in meanings.

When the DLC says it, they mean pander to them.

When Howard Dean says it, he means we need to LEAD them.

[greenohio]

97. Uh huh. So they can say the same thing...but for former DLCer Dean

its OK. For current DLCer Feinstein its not.

Thank you for supporting my point.

[Guaranteed]

100. You're goddamned right it's okay for him to say it.

Because his political approach is entirely different than theirs, and we can tell the difference.

[greenohio]

102. Yes. His is to attack everyone else as being moderates...before

he espouses moderate positions. Dividing the party is a winning strategy which will certainly bring us victory.

[Guaranteed]

105. No, his is to MAKE THE ARGUMENT instead of rolling over like

a fucking coward.

LEADERSHIP, LEADERSHIP, LEADERSHIP.

[greenohio]

107. I would saying ebracing pro-life dems is rolling over

like a dog.

[Guaranteed]

110. Not when they're voting for people who are going to defend abortion

rights.

[greenohio]

112. Ahh, but supporting people who are pro-life who

would vote anti choice would violoate that, wouldn't it?

[Guaranteed]

115. What the hell are you talking about?

Total non sequitur.

[greenohio]

118. I have always embraced Pro-Life Dems

says Howard Dean. Dean SUPPORTED NAFTA when it was passed. Now that it is passed, he says it needs revision. This guy supports the very positions that he demonizes the DLC for. His only point of contention with them is the war.

Apparently an anti-war position gives you a pass on all other issues.

[Guaranteed]

120. Okay, now's where you just keep repeating yourself even

though your distortions have been sorted through and tossed out with the trash.

[greenohio]

122. Repetition is good for the mind. It apparently didn't get through the

first few times. Dean said those things. They are fact and not in dispute.

Your point is that he CAN while others can't.

That is called hypocrisy.

[truth2power]

10. I thought we were already doing that.

"...softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue."

You can acknowledge one's personal feelings about abortion, while defending the right of others to think and act differently.

[blondeatlast]

12. How, precisely? A party needs to be RESOLUTE

in their positions.

If the Dems take this stance, it's one of "bend over, buddy..."

[truth2power]

18. You're right, Blonde. Let me try to clarify,

after reading this article more closely.

I am pro-choice. I believe that the legal right to abortion should never be infringed upon. I can respectfully acknowledge someone's well thought-out position against abortion. But the Democratic party is not going to gain anything by chipping away at abortion rights in order to placate an interest group that, more than likely, would never vote for democrats anyway. Abortion is an individual choice, and always should be. We should respect that, but understand that the choice cannot be made for someone else.

As someone has said: if given the choice of voting for a fake Republican or a real Republican, people will choose the real Republican every time. (Or words to that effect).

[saracat]

34. Exactly. I have been posting that argument all week! Thank you.

[saracat]

33. Thank You BAL!

[Redneck Socialist]

15. Roemer on abortion

Just what we need, a repuke running the DNC.

http://www.issues2000.org/IN/Tim_Roemer.htm: eyes: :mad:

[fujiyama]

19. Can't say

I'm very impressed with that record.

Having him head the DNC would be a big mistake.

[bling bling]

52. Oh my.

THAT guy is running the DNC???

I don't know what to think anymore.

[The Flaming Red Head]

16. Backing the supporters of bombers and murderers is a softer position?

Isn't that illegal?

If a Muslim Charity helps those in need, but also channels funds to more militant factions that kill Americans and bomb buildings then they go jail, their money and donor list confiscated, and are investigated and put on watch list.

What is the difference in that and these right wing so called pro life groups who channel funds to more militant Christian factions.

Rudolph stayed on the run with help, doctors were killed with help. This doesn't all happen in a vacuum and I won't forget.

[slay]

17. Fuck that. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one. This is about choice

This is about not imposing one's personal belief on others. I myself hate abortions, but I will fight for everyone having the right to choose for themselves. This IS the democrat position on abortion and should not change.

[elehhhhna]

21. Yes. You summed it up nicely.

[JVS]

131. Does the same apply to gun control?

It's a great soundbite but it won't win any support for pro-choice causes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Another nail in the coffin of the Democratic Party.

As the DLC successfully transforms it into the Democratic(R) Party.

[Gold Metal Flake]

25. As the established Democratic leadership moves increasing right...

...they NARROW their voter base.

By working with groups such as DFA and Move-on, we will grow the Progressive base, strengthen our voice and offer a true alternative to republicrats. We will expand our voter base by drawing on the apathetic, the disenfranchised and those who currently vote for third party candidates. As we grow in strength, we will pull in "sunny day" voters that are now aligned with the more conservative candidates as they see that our adherents have the ability to win. With a more powerful voice we will be able to capitalize on our succeses. In time, Dems will rush towards US, not toward conservatives. Nothing succeeds like success.

By eschewing the moderate, conservative and outright DINO portions of the party we establish a demarcation between what is acceptable and what is not. In order for this to work we must make it happen, the sooner the better.

Hand wringing wins nothing. Fear mongering about how marginalizing the DLC and it's PNAC and repuke-connected members simply reveals to us how infiltrated DU is with wingers sympathizers.

I have a plan to put into effect that will help do what I have written about. But it's not for posting on the web. I'll be contacting one national organization about it soon. But, if I have to, I'll do it myself.

[durutti]

26. The party is going the way of the Whigs.

Thank God.

We're now presented with an opportunity to build a genuine Left alternative of the sort not seen since the days of Eugene Debs.

[ikojo]

29. There's always the Greens....

They are unequivocally pro choice.

[ElectroPrincess]

147. Hey, this is the LAST straw ... forcing our morals on others ...

Next they'll vote OUT birth control while continuing to fund Viagra. See a trend? Yes, it's called CONTROL.

That's it! I'm no longer Democrat, won't even go to the monthly meeting. I'm here for the Greens.

Damn those "sell out" so called Democrats!

That's not me, not now, not ever. :P

[ikojo]

28. When will Democrats learn that there is no negotiating

with the pugs. The further to the right they go the more elections they will lose, plain and simple.

[catzies]

57. And they will stand for nothing, and lose. Lose everything.

n/t

[The Flaming Red Head]

30. Last one out of THE PARTY, turn off the lights.

Never mind Kerry has left over funds for the electric.

[Griffy]

31. why give this any thought.. media is under corp control.. discuss facts!nt

[saracat]

35. If this is adopted, I am history!

For now, I will work hard in protest. And screw all of them. There will be NO reframing of this debate for me and NO "softening my position" As soon as they began to whisper about that I said we were in trouble. You cannot open that door an inch. Those bastards!

[madfloridian]

41. Dean's stances on choice.

From MTP last week:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/6702005 /
MR. RUSSERT: SNIP.."Is there a way the Democrats could change their vocabulary on abortion?

DR. DEAN: We can change our vocabulary, but I don't think we ought to change our principles. The way I think about this is--and it gets into the gay marriage stuff, too. We're not the party of gay marriage. We're the party of equal rights for all Americans. You know, I signed the first civil unions bill in America, and four years later the most conservative president the United States has seen in my lifetime is now embracing what I signed. We've come a long way. We're not the party of abortion. We're the party of allowing people to make up their own minds about medical treatment. It's just a different way of phrasing it. We have to start framing these issues, not letting them frame the issues.

SNIP.."I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children. That's what you so often lack on the Republican side. They beat the drums about being pro-life but they forget about life after birth. And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats. I think we want them in our party. We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue...."END SNIP

[madfloridian]

42. More, since many still misunderstand.

Individual freedom should apply to abortion decision
DEAN..."I believe that the issue of abortion is a medical rather than a political decision. I don't see how a government regulation that tells doctors how to practice medicine can be supported. Republicans claim that they are the party of individual freedom, but they are the first to tell other people how to live their lives.
Source: Winning Back America, by Howard Dean, p.142-3 Dec 3, 2003

Q: Where do you stand on the partial birth abortion ban?
A: In the four years between 1996 & 2000 there were no late term abortions performed in my state. Late term abortions are very rare and should never be used except to save the life or health of the mother. I just don't think the government ought to be making personal medical decisions for Americans. No respectable physician would ever do a late term abortion except for the most serious reasons. That is why I did not support the President's bill
Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

SNIP.."As a physician, I do not like the idea that Congress or the President think they should practice medicine. Abortion is a deeply personal decision which ought to be made between the patient, the family and physician. It's none of the government's business."
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

The notion of "partial birth abortion" is nonsense. This is a rare procedure used only to save the life or health of the mother. We have had no third trimester abortions in Vermont in the past four years.
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

[saracat]

50. I disagree. Pro Lifers. as defined in todays world, are against abortion

Why should I give a damn what else they support? Their positions are all very nice, but they are not going to condone what they consider murder. Would you? I am against "reframing this issue. It has already been decided and does not need to be reargued. If Dean does this he is softening the issue. He wants us to be able to gwet the votes of the people who a oppose abortion but agree with us on other issue. I don't . We don't need their votes. Both the price and risk are too high. The following quote is the Dean quote I am referring to.

"I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. "They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children. That's what you so often lack on the Republican side. They beat the drums about being pro-life but they forget about life after birth. And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats. I think we want them in our party. We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue...."END SNIP

[The Flaming Red Head]

136. If he was a doctor who performed abortions they'd want to kill him

not embrace him.

[The Flaming Red Head]

137. If Dean was a doctor who performed abortions

The same so-called pro-life movement would hire a sniper to embrace him.

That's how they make their voices heard. Our society (especially women) has been bullied and intimidated by these people and I'm mad that our party is catering to them.

All you have to do is talk to them long enough and every one of them will wink or smirk at the violence that has happened (and not too long ago) as a result of this movement. Mention a doctor dying over performing abortions and they'll smile. They're horrible people.

[greenohio]

71. Dean: "And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats"

Talk about abandoning your base. Hypocrites.
So we need to reframe the debate by using repuke terms: pro-life. Brilliant strategy. Soon all of our elections can be run like a Dean primary.

[madfloridian]

44. Contrast Dean's with Roemers..See how Reid Pelosi want to go.

http://www.issues2000.org/IN/Tim_Roemer_Abortion.htm

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999

[greenohio]

72. Roemer isn't attacking moderates and then promoting moderate values....

Like Dean is. He calls himself an economic CONSERVATIVE. He is pro-gun. He is pro-NAFTA and now...he wants MORE anti-choicers in the party, using the repuke term PRO-LIFE. Must we give him a pass on everything.

[Goldeneye]

46. They're going to lose at least as many voters as they will gain.

What could they possibly thinking?

[wabeewoman]

48. I think the mistake is letting the issue be framed

as for or against abortion. Its for safe, legal abortions because if they aren't legal they will be done in a back room by unqualified people as they were before legalization. A friend of my sister's died from a 'back room' abortion. THAT is the real issue. I don't LIKE abortion but I want it to be a safe option for those women who are going to do it whether or not it is legal.

[tsuki]

51. I think we should put it to the Pro-Birthers. We demand a 5% increase

in the income tax rate to support Pro-Life.

We let them get away with this Pro-Life BS when they would rather let a child starve in the street, or die from lack of medical care.

You want to see a bunch turn Pro-Choice in a hurry. Tell them it's going to cost them.

Most of the Pro-Birth on my county email howl like a banchee when Aid to Dependent Children is brought up.

Recently, I have been thinking of getting a bumpersticker that says:

Are you Pro-Life or just Pro-Birth?

[grumpy old fart]

55. You're right of course, but these folks have demonstrated time and again

that they will vote against their own economic interests on this point...just that stupid, or committed.

[tsuki]

68. Then it's time to call them on it. We let them get away with this

stupid, jingoistic, sophomoric crap. Put up or shut up.

Bush's new "revenue neutral tax generating program" is to include a tax on employer sponsored health plans. It will throw more on the uninsured rolls.

The Repubs need to be called on it.

[grumpy old fart]

53. There is no "middle ground" on the issue.

If you think it's murder, it's murder. If you don't know, it's gotta be up to the individual. Where's the mythical "middle ground"? We are not gonna "sway" anyone who thinks it's murder. The only point we can try to make to these folks is that you've got to look at the broader issues in the world. The folks who will always vote on this one issue will always vote on this one issue. No matter how incredible.

[high density]

59. How in the hell do you soften the abortion issue?

The fact remains that the "pro-life" crowd only cares about life while it's in the womb. After that the life is on its own. Welfare? No, only for corporations, plus they'll fight to stop all social programs and drive wages down. Using military force only as a last resort? Nope, they want it blown the f--k up now.

By the way, this article really mangled the meaning of Dean's "Meet the Press" quote. What he said is not represented at all by what they printed. The full quote was posted earlier in this thread and it has a completely different meaning.

[Kipepeo]

60. This is so disgusting

I am so angry. How stupid is this "democrats are out of touch" bullshit-line they they are force-feeding us and hoping we will swallow quietly? With over half of the population saying they want Roe v. Wade protected (that's not half of democrats, that's half of the fucking country) it seems to me that Republicans are the ones out of touch with the electorate. But the devil has great PR.

The only Thank you goes to Gloria Feldt:

"Tim Roemer is the one with a 'moral blind spot,' " said Gloria Feldt, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. "He is completely failing to consider the women whose lives may be in danger."

[Skittles]

61. maybe we should soften our image on uppity black and gay folk too

:puke:

F*** YOU NANCY

[Kipepeo]

62. I think you're on to something

yeah, maybe we should soften our image on civil rights and affirmative action while we're at it. You know, we should throw the tent wider to the racists and sexists we've been putting off with our all our "equal access" talk and our "nondiscrimination clauses." Maybe we could get a few of them from the Republican party too if we'd only soften our image! It's really *our* fault that bigots don't like our party. We need to try a bit harder to take their point of view into consideration and to appeal to their sensibilities.

I second your :puke:

[Skittles]

63. I REFUSE TO COMPROMISE MY PRINCIPLES

NO WAY, I WON'T DO IT, I WON'T PANDER TO BIGOTS AND RACISTS AND HOMOPHOBES.

I SUPPOSE ONE DAY WE WILL BE MEETING IN A G.D. RE-EDUCATION CENTER. :puke:

[greenohio]

84. But Dean says we need to make a home for "pro-lifers" We need to "embrace

them". This is moving the party to the left my friend. This is the way.

[JVS]

129. C'mon this is the Democratic party, where everyone gets their turn in...

the barrel. ;-)

[Warren DeMontague]

64. My long-time friends who are greens are going to be resoundingly chorusing

"Welcome aboard! See, we TOLD you you were one of us!"

...very, VERY soon.

[Ell09]

65. It's not that difficult

We lost an election to the worst president of my lifetime, and I did live through Reagan, and THIS is what they come up with?

The overwhelming message of this election is that the electorate is moronic. They don't want to THINK about positions, they don't want any gray area, just give them Yes or No answers. Don't deal in nuanced positions, just say what you think. The average voter wants to know where the candidate stands without having to THINK. By trying to play both sides of an issue, we lose the moron vote by a wide margin.

The party is pro choice, we believe in a women's right to CHOOSE whether an abortion is something that she is comfortable with. How f'ing difficult is that? We don't lose votes because of our positions, we lose votes trying to be all things to all people and end up alienating almost everyone.

We lost because we didn't dumb down our positions for the average American. We lost because the MEDIA is extremely biased in it's coverage of this administration and failed to do it's JOB in covering the Iraq War (see 48% of Bush voters in Ohio believing that the Iraq war was in direct response to 9/11).

We didn't lose because our positions were not in the so called "center". When you lose to a President with a record like Dubya's, your message had to be incoherent.

I am still very angry about the results of this election and have basically bunkered down and not read the news, watched the TV news, or even visited DU much.

Before deciding to change what the party stands for, wouldn't it be nice to stand up and PROUDLY state our positions for once? It certainly seems like, on the issue of abortion in particular, our candidates are almost embarrassed to state their position. That's a losing scenario, no matter how vastly superior your position is to your opponents.

[blondeatlast]

67. So true. If anything, we are the party that has fought to reduce the

need for abortion, yet our reps run from the issue like it taints them.

For some people, it already has tainted them. Why worry about it? We won't win them anyway.

If people are fundamentally LW on most issues, but unhappy with the party on a single issue, let them form their own damn party.

I see nothing but trouble coming from this idea; nothing but trouble. The MSM will have a field day with it and it plays right into KKKarl's "noise machine."

Bad move Dems, bad move. This is the first thing I could see leaving my beloved party for, a real tipping point. I'm a 4th generation Dem, I think it's important to stay a Dem and work from within, but this crap has got to stop.

Edit: Welcome to DU! :toast:

[greenohio]

73. So DEAN is using the term "PRO-LIFE". He "embraces" PRO LIFE Dems

Fascinating. You know, whats most frustrating about him is that so many hold him up as a model for reform to save the Democratic party from the right. Those who attack the DLC but love Dean are using a double standard. Period.

[Guaranteed]

77. Yeah, and he's a racist too because he wants guys with confederate flags

on their trucks to vote for Democrats.

Read what he said. He wants to embrace them as "pro-life" in EVERY sense- while he maintained very clearly that he is PRO-CHOICE.

[greenohio]

82. You think he's racist? Pro-life and racist. Sounds like a winner.

This is what we need in a party reformer.

[Guaranteed]

93. No, do you? nt

[greenohio]

98. No. Should I? He does think we should embrace Pro-lifers.

and the NRA and the free traders.

[Guaranteed]

99. *I* am pro-NRA, except for CCW.

And he DOESN'T think we should embrace the free traders- we've been over this.

You seem to be missing the point, here- he said we need to bring the confederates back into the party. Does that make him a racist? No, no more than him wanting to bring back pro-lifers- through LEADERSHIP and ARGUMENT- makes him pro-life.

He's a DOCTOR, for Christ's sake.

[greenohio]

111. He still says that NAFTA helped his state.

He is not for getting rid of NAFTA dude. He wants some revisions... just like DLCer Kerry.

He supports the North American FREE TRADE Agreement with some revisions. He certainly does not call to scrap it, like a true Dem would.

[Warren DeMontague]

142. He wants to bring "The Confederates" back?

..isn't it a little late for that?

[greenohio]

145. I don't even understand the post. Apparently

Dean said something to that effect.

[Warren DeMontague]

151. Nah, Dean said he wanted to be the candidate for

"Guys with confederate flags on the backs of their pickup trucks"

Which is a long way from being an actual "Confederate":

[FlaGranny]

108. You are very studiously

avoiding Dean's full statement and embracing the out-of-context quote. Why is that, I wonder?

[greenohio]

121. Maybe you should post the full quote, if you are so sure it

helps your case. I've read it. The fact of the matter is "embracing" pro-life dems is embracing pro-life dems. Context will not help that statement much.

"I supported NAFTA" is "I supported NAFTA".

I am a fiscal conservative, is I am a fiscal conservative.

I have not done anymore than what the anti-DLC crowd does to Kerry, Feinstein and Rendell and others.

[Geek_Girl]

79. Read the whole thing

Howard Dean, who supports abortion rights, said the Democrats should "embrace" antiabortion voters and expand the term "pro-life" to such social issues as providing for children's medical care. "I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. . . . We can have a respectful dialog, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue," Dean, another potential candidate for DNC chairman, said on NBC's "Meet the Press" earlier this month.


He's talking about re-framing the debate. Which is exactly what democrats should be doing. Not flip floppin on the issue like the DLC would like to see happen.

[greenohio]

81. I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats.

As said by Howard Dean. Don't pretend that if any DLCer said something like this that Dean supporters would be all over them calling repukes.

Reframing the debate, does not mean using repuke terms. We certainly don't want to water down the party by making home for more anti choicers...do we?

Or is that OK, only if Dean says it?

Some just will not see. Blinded by the Dean.

[Geek_Girl]

144. No your missing the point

Dean is talking about expanding the Pro-life debate to caring for children by making sure every American child has access to health care. Democrats are "Pro-life" we just need to reframe the debate.

I'm pro-choice and believe I have the right to make my own choices in regard to abortion. I will not support a candidate that wants to take that right away and I know many other democratic woman who feel the same way.

[ElectroPrincess]

148. Abortion should NOT be a legal issue ... dammit!

It's used by the republicans to CONTROL poor women.

Too bad some working and middle classes want to FORCE THEIR MORALITY on the rest of us.

It's as matter of choice, nothing else.

If the DLC wants to hug self-righteous Pro-BIRTH nutcases, then they can kiss my (and many other pro-women's rights) vote good-bye.

[GOPBasher]

78. If Repubs rally around some pro-choicers, why can't we rally around

some pro-lifers? Look, in red states, I think we'll need to compromise a little more on abortion. I don't see why this is such a huge problem. Republicans in NY vote for Pataki and Guilianni, even though they're pro-choice. They realized they're in a blue state and that's what they need to do to win. Why can't we do the same in South Carolina or Oklahoma?

[Walt Starr]

80. I have never seen Repukes rallying around pro-choicers

The pro-choice Repukes end up being targeted for termination in the primaries.

[GOPBasher]

83. Blue states.

Pataki in NY, Swar... can't spell his name in California, etc. If we want to win in dark red states, such as South Carolina, we'll need to run pro-lifers.

[Walt Starr]

85. Look at what happened to Specter

He was targeted for termination in the primary. Toomey would have won had Bush not stepped in. Now he's on board for anti-choice.

That's how the repukes treat pro-choice people in their anti-choice party. Either they toe the line or they are targeted for termination.

[GOPBasher]

86. I agree with you there, but you still haven't responded about Pataki and

the governator.

[Walt Starr]

87. Pataki will be targeted

So will Swarzenegger. They need to solidify power in both states, first.

[JVS]

126. They may leave Ahnuld alone

based purely on the fact that they'd rather have a Republican who isn't totally in line with them than a Democrat who is totally opposed to them. California isn't the South, they cannot expect a similar level of hard-core right-wing voters

[Jose Diablo]

88. Many people do not remember what it was like

or they never saw the effects of anti-abortion at full power.

To say young people will not have sex it just plain wishful thinking. They will because sex is glorified in our society. The sex is everyplace: advertisements, games, novels, TV, movies. Then we say, "mustn't have sex, it is wrong". Then everyplace the youth look, there it is. Of course, they will have sex.

And when they do, some of the girls will get pregnant.

Now along comes the morality police to make the girl feel the shame when the male was as responsible as the girl. But it will be the girl that will be forced to either bring the child into the world and forced into a world of poverty and responsibility for that child long before the girl can provide for that child properly.

Or the girl will be forced to seek out the services of some butcher who will operate on her in some back alley dump without anesthesiology or pain killers, very probably puncture her uterus, and she will at worse die from bleeding or at best be rushed to a hospital to be repaired but will still have scar tissue rendering her sterile.

Of course the wealthy would always be able to afford a D&C in the safety of some clinic and everyone would look away.

This whole religious anti-abortion issue is just plain bullshit. They are living in some fairy tale that has no resemblance whatsoever to the real world.

Edit: And now, those in our very own party are becoming willing to compromise on the side of the issue that they KNOW is completely wrong. I am sorry, but those in our party that are willing to compromise do not belong in our party. They know this is wrong but decide they being elected is more important that protecting the welfare of the women.

[MaineDem]

96. I remember very well

And I will do all within my power to make sure we don't go back to those days again.

[The Flaming Red Head]

135. That's why I hate that they're isolating southern women

It's like we don't count, our health or deaths won't matter, and we're the pawns of the Democratic Party's desire to attract new voters in the south.

I may not vote at all anymore if they don't offer better choices.

[Chimpanzee]

114. These people really are clueless!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

127. Make some calls or quit yer bitchin'...

Tell them how you feel -- call or fax, don't bother with an email.


Nancy Pelosi

The best way to contact me or my Washington, DC staff remains either by phone at [phone], by fax at [phone]. The addresses and contact information for my District and DC office are listed below. For direct assistance from my office, requesting Capitol tours, or other items, please call my district office at [phone].

If you would like to contact the office of Rep. Pelosi, we suggest calling the DC office at 202-225-4965, the San Francisco office at 415-556-4862, or email [e-mail]. Thank you.

San Francisco
450 Golden Gate Avenue, #145378
San Francisco, California 94102
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Washington, D.C.
2371 Rayburn HOB
Washington, D.C. 20515
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]


Harry Reid

I maintain four Nevada offices, in Las Vegas, Reno, Carson City, and a mobile office that travels throughout rural Nevada. Please locate the office closest to you. If you need to contact me directly, please go here.

Carson City
600 East Williams Street, #302
Carson City, NV 89701
Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]

Lloyd D. George Building
333 Las Vegas Boulevard South, Suite 8016
Las Vegas, NV 89101
Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]

Bruce R. Thompson Courthouse and Federal Building
400 South Virginia Street, Suite 902
Reno, NV 89501
Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]

Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]
Schedule and Information Washington
528 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]

Toll Free for Nevadans: 1-866-SEN-REID (736-7343) -Restricted to calls originating from area codes 775 and 702

[proudbluestater]

143. I'm convinced, people only want to stay in power

and will selfishly guard their positions in the house and senate no matter if that means giving up all principles they once held.

But NOBODY will even mention vote fraud and the fact that we have NOT lost two elections.

We need ALL NEW leadership in Washington. All you young'uns, fire up your campaigns!